139 réponses à ce sujet

[Knight of Dane]

[quote]Emzamination wrote...

[quote]Knight of Dane wrote...

And as I stated before, what I would want may not be suited for a
Bioware Game but something new, but if Bioware actually makes this kind
of content, I personally, would like for it to be properly made.
[/quote]
 
If you have new Ideas for new content, make a new thread.This just happens to be one suggesting a epilogue note.
[/quote]
That's not what it's about.
[quote]Emzamination wrote...

[quote]Knight of Dane wrote...
Accepted? I accept it for what it is; opinion. If that is what you think
then go right ahead, that will not, however, stop me from saying what
my opinion of that opinion is. If you think I belittle it then it is
because you think that I think my opinion carries more weight than
yours, whcih I don't this is a public forum to discuss Dragon Age, which
we are doing, I have no intention of personal dispute.

And.. I apologize in case I offend, but I am not going to try and write pleasing if something bugs me.
[/quote]
 
I'm sorry, I don't understand what you're saying.
[/quote]
Good, it worked then! 
[quote]Emzamination wrote...

[quote]Knight of Dane wrote...
Well not a writer, but I study writing and games design.

besides, I am not supposed to make the writers job, but I still have opinion on what I
would like since that's what your OP topic was about. If you want me to
write a script to make a proper suggestion then make that as a new
topic.
[/quote]
 
Are you serious? you attempt to reprimand me on not knowing how to implement time skips and having no sense of story development, and you know nothing yourself? Of all the... WOW.
[/quote]
I know pletny but as stated, not my job. I'm not attempting to do their job I am discussing why do not like this one.


[quote]Emzamination wrote...
[quote]I am telling you what I want because I think it is wrong of you to assume what players want.[/quote][/quote]

The only assumption I've made is that players wanted kids with their LI and that assumption has been supported in this thread. So what's your argument?
[/quote]
That it has only partially, there has also been a lot not supporting it, nothing has been proven or disproven, nor do I think there will be such a outcome.


[quote]Emzamination wrote...

[quote]Knight of Dane wrote...
As i said, not my job. I have plenty of threads allready where I post my ideas.

I never claimed that Romance is Important in the grand scheme of the game, so I don't know why you are telling me this.

I
do however acknowlege that Bioware is one of the few game companies
that innovates on story, characters and character interaction.

There is no denying that a large part of their games fanbase rest in the companions and romances, even if they are optional.

Which
is what I have been wanting all along: the option to have a child and
not just being told that we get it, it holds no value. [/quote]

The romance subject matter is unimportant, davids stance on optional contents importance however is very valid to this argument. Optional content will never have a huge level of importance. I accept that, don't know why you can't as well, but not my prob.
[/quote]
Good, you are the one who brings it up all the time.
[quote]Emzamination wrote...

[quote]Knight of Dane wrote...
Show, don't tell.
A rule you are told over and over in writing classes.
And bioware is damn good at showing, which is why I keep playing their games.

I do not want your horrid suggestion for a compromise to belittle what bioware and their games are.

[/quote]

L-O-L The model is biowares, I'm merely suggesting they use it more commonly.
[/quote]
Well, I still don't like it, even if the credit does not befall to you.

[Knight of Dane]

Emzamination wrote...

Knight of Dane wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

Knight of Dane wrote...

Emzamination wrote...
That would be nice, but bioware has never and will never give the protagonist an actual kid in game. Keeping the child a post-game epilogue mention is a compromise of sorts for those who want to have a kid with their LI, but can't get one in game. It's an effective model bioware has been using for years, examples are in the op.

If designers was thinking the way you do nothing original would ever be created.

Compromises in design and development are halting excuses for not experimenting with something properly.

My compromise has been tailored to the writers stance on the matter. Take the argument up with them if you don't think they are experimenting properly.

Why? it's not their idea to make a possible kid a slide, I do not even think they are going to go near a protag child. This a discussion of what we want, not what the writers should do, as I have said before.

 lol Okay then and now I'm done with this argument. You obviously have no clue, what you're talking about.

I'm not talking about old games, I'm talking about Dragon Age: I here, but I acknowledge that you are right; bioware has done if before in either older games that is more text based or in one where the child actually holds a story significance.

[esper]

H. Birdman wrote...

esper wrote...

H. Birdman wrote...

Not sure I understand the "no in-game kids" rule.

It could be a powerful roleplaying tool. In particular, it could force extremely difficult choices. When I play an RPG character who is basically good (which is most of the time), I almost never run into scenarios in which it's hard for me to make the "good" choice. Even if there is some significant cost--loss of a love interest, loss of some tangible perk--it's never enough to make me think, "Yeah, under these circumstances, this guy/girl would say, 'Screw it' and do the bad/selfish thing." So, even though I don't mean to, I almost always end up a paragon of virtue.

Kids change that. You can absolutely envision a paragon of virtue turning his back on countless innocent people to save his child. Or slaughtering otherwise decent folks because they threaten the child somehow. And then having to live with the guilt or rationalize it, which makes the "good guy" far more nuanced, morally grey, realistic, etc.

Just a thought.

Because my character don't have time to care for the child, this is not Rune Factory or Harvest Moon where your spouse is nice enough to stay home (most of the time) and where the is a lovely community to take care of the child should the player character and lover be absent.

There is a good change that a both player and lover will be out fighting for weeks at a time. They also led violent lives that likely leads to an far too early death.

Simply speaking, getting a child in the state of life where we are likely to be when we play an RPG, is irressponsible and can border on neglect.

Most often it is simply not the time and better something to be waited for in the future after the end of the game, when the player characters life has a change to be somewhat settled.

Nah, that's not convincing.  Protagonists in video games rarely have time to maintain any sort of relationship, at least not during "on screen" time.  Either say that child rearing happened off camera or address the "neglect" issue by making the character feel guility. 

And who ever said anything about the child belonging to the player and a "lover" who is on the adventuring "team"?  You've been playing too many Bioware videogames.  It could be the child of a deceased parent, or a parent who isn't on the team, a niece taken in when her parents were killed, etc.

I'm not saying children definitely need to be included.  I'm agnostic on the point.  But the problems you raise don't present any insurmountable obstacles.

Happend off camera by who? That is just bad writing and we might as well not have a child if it is not going to play a larger role.

And I doubt they would force the any feelings on our character.

This is bioware games we are talking about. The lover is going to be on the adventuring team, 8/10 bioware LI are. An adopted child is a completely different from what was asked for (which was an child with the Li), but it could be an interesting way to test out the waters, so to speak.

Of course they are not imsurmountable obstacles, but they are still obstabelces and would force bioware to radically change the way they write stories and how the LI dynamic functions to make it work.

And we also have the issue of time. Bioware write a sense of passing time reallly, really bad and sadly after da2 there will likely be no time skip, so what are we going to do with the pregant female who is mostly likely on the fighting team.

And I can also tell you now already, this will open a can of worm named 'social norm', of what is expected for women and men when it comes to child rearing. It can get ugly really fast, and this is a can of worm not worth opening unless it is done right. It should not be done just for a cheap gimmick.

[Emzamination]

Andronic0s wrote...

Mass Effect 1 and 2 did not had any Epilogue scenes and they where just
fine as they where, if you need the writers to spell out for you what
happens once the game is over that's perfectly fine but they are far
from required since people can use their imagination to fill in blanks
in whatever way fits their character best.

Mass effect is a trilogy, its last game had epilogue, because it was the end of the story. The only bioware games that haven't had a epilogue are Shattered Steel, sonic chronicles and kotor.

@lso not everyone is into making fan-fic and head canon, not sure why that's assumed to be the norm. Some people are and that's fine, but there are some who want to hear things straight from the writers pen.

Pretty much since the beginning of time, unless you know a lot of couples that have been practicing unprotected sex for years and remain childless, I think they normally go to the doctor at that point.

I'll just defer to in-exiles answer.

[Dhiro]

As long as we have the option to refuse the idea of having children, sure go wild.

[Emzamination]

Dhiro wrote...

As long as we have the option to refuse the idea of having children, sure go wild.

Right? As long as it's optional, I don't see how this could've met resistance. I think some people just like imposing their own personal values on others. But then again... there was that refusal option for mass effect 3 and people moaned about that too. Maybe they just enjoy complaining for the sake of complaining, Idk.

[legbamel]

I think this argument went in a different direction from the OP. For me, if it's an optional ending slide I don't have any objection to the PC and LI having kids. My objection comes when people suggest kids in the game. To me, anything more than kids that are essentially pets would require too many resources. I'd rather have a greater variety of quests available, instead.

[Swagger7]

Anybody else read "invisible children" and think of that whole Kony 2012 movement?  I saw "siring invisible children" and thought "Emzamination wants us to be able to use our own children as child soldiers.  That's deliciously evil." 

"What do you want Inquisitor Kony?"

"Give all your children to the Inquisition!  Mwahahahaha!"

OK, I'm done now. 

[XX-Pyro]

No thanks don't really want kids in the game whether on screen or not. That's my opinion. And if you're going to use the "it's optional" argument I'm going to say I want an M16 and an AK in my game- you know, as optional weapons?

[Josielyn]

It is heartening to see some peoples' opinions have changed about kids in RPGs and that they are no longer screeching about not being able to slaughter any. I agree that offscreen epilogue is a nice idea. Maybe there could be a "picture" of your offspring that you can unlock with certain achievements.

[H. Birdman]

esper wrote...

H. Birdman wrote...

esper wrote...

H. Birdman wrote...

Not sure I understand the "no in-game kids" rule.

It could be a powerful roleplaying tool. In particular, it could force extremely difficult choices. When I play an RPG character who is basically good (which is most of the time), I almost never run into scenarios in which it's hard for me to make the "good" choice. Even if there is some significant cost--loss of a love interest, loss of some tangible perk--it's never enough to make me think, "Yeah, under these circumstances, this guy/girl would say, 'Screw it' and do the bad/selfish thing." So, even though I don't mean to, I almost always end up a paragon of virtue.

Kids change that. You can absolutely envision a paragon of virtue turning his back on countless innocent people to save his child. Or slaughtering otherwise decent folks because they threaten the child somehow. And then having to live with the guilt or rationalize it, which makes the "good guy" far more nuanced, morally grey, realistic, etc.

Just a thought.

Because my character don't have time to care for the child, this is not Rune Factory or Harvest Moon where your spouse is nice enough to stay home (most of the time) and where the is a lovely community to take care of the child should the player character and lover be absent.

There is a good change that a both player and lover will be out fighting for weeks at a time. They also led violent lives that likely leads to an far too early death.

Simply speaking, getting a child in the state of life where we are likely to be when we play an RPG, is irressponsible and can border on neglect.

Most often it is simply not the time and better something to be waited for in the future after the end of the game, when the player characters life has a change to be somewhat settled.

Nah, that's not convincing.  Protagonists in video games rarely have time to maintain any sort of relationship, at least not during "on screen" time.  Either say that child rearing happened off camera or address the "neglect" issue by making the character feel guility. 

And who ever said anything about the child belonging to the player and a "lover" who is on the adventuring "team"?  You've been playing too many Bioware videogames.  It could be the child of a deceased parent, or a parent who isn't on the team, a niece taken in when her parents were killed, etc.

I'm not saying children definitely need to be included.  I'm agnostic on the point.  But the problems you raise don't present any insurmountable obstacles.

Happend off camera by who? That is just bad writing and we might as well not have a child if it is not going to play a larger role.

And I doubt they would force the any feelings on our character.

This is bioware games we are talking about. The lover is going to be on the adventuring team, 8/10 bioware LI are. An adopted child is a completely different from what was asked for (which was an child with the Li), but it could be an interesting way to test out the waters, so to speak.

Of course they are not imsurmountable obstacles, but they are still obstabelces and would force bioware to radically change the way they write stories and how the LI dynamic functions to make it work.

And we also have the issue of time. Bioware write a sense of passing time reallly, really bad and sadly after da2 there will likely be no time skip, so what are we going to do with the pregant female who is mostly likely on the fighting team.

And I can also tell you now already, this will open a can of worm named 'social norm', of what is expected for women and men when it comes to child rearing. It can get ugly really fast, and this is a can of worm not worth opening unless it is done right. It should not be done just for a cheap gimmick.

Still nothing convincing.  Sorry.

There are any number of folks who can tend the day-to-day needs of a child.  Spouse not in the party, servants, grandparents, etc.   What makes it bad writing?  Millions upon millions of children grow up under these circumstances; ever heard of the military?  And who said anything about a small role?  All we know is that it's a non-party-member NPC, you can write them as big or small as you like.  And timing is flexible.  You could start the game with a child; you started DA2 with close family members, after all.  Or you could do a time skip.  What evidence do we have that "Bioware [categorically] handles them badly"?  One deeply flawed game?

It's one thing to say, "Bioware won't do it."  I tend to agree.   But saying "Bioware can't do it well" is objectively wrong.  That's the kind of thinking that gets us the same basic story in practically every Bioware game.  Gamers are an older, more diverse group than they were 15 years ago.  We're not all looking to roleplay a 19 year old single person thrown into the world for the first time, looking for hook ups when not adventuring. 

And as for "social norms" ... seriously?  The company that goes out of its way to include gay sex in every game?  Sorry, Bioware rightly ignores this kind of argument.

[Emzamination]

XX-Pyro wrote...

No thanks don't really want kids in the game whether on screen or not. That's my opinion. And if you're going to use the "it's optional" argument I'm going to say I want an M16 and an AK in my game- you know, as optional weapons?

The difference between my suggestion and yours is, mine actually has a realistic chance of happening, taking era & setting into account and all.

[Emzamination]

Josielyn wrote...

It is heartening to see some peoples' opinions have changed about kids in RPGs and that they are no longer screeching about not being able to slaughter any. I agree that offscreen epilogue is a nice idea. Maybe there could be a "picture" of your offspring that you can unlock with certain achievements.

I was only pointing out, it was unrealistic given the situation & circumstances <_<

Modifié par Emzamination, 29 janvier 2013 - 05:19 .

[esper]

H. Birdman wrote...

esper wrote...

H. Birdman wrote...

esper wrote...

H. Birdman wrote...

Not sure I understand the "no in-game kids" rule.

It could be a powerful roleplaying tool. In particular, it could force extremely difficult choices. When I play an RPG character who is basically good (which is most of the time), I almost never run into scenarios in which it's hard for me to make the "good" choice. Even if there is some significant cost--loss of a love interest, loss of some tangible perk--it's never enough to make me think, "Yeah, under these circumstances, this guy/girl would say, 'Screw it' and do the bad/selfish thing." So, even though I don't mean to, I almost always end up a paragon of virtue.

Kids change that. You can absolutely envision a paragon of virtue turning his back on countless innocent people to save his child. Or slaughtering otherwise decent folks because they threaten the child somehow. And then having to live with the guilt or rationalize it, which makes the "good guy" far more nuanced, morally grey, realistic, etc.

Just a thought.

Because my character don't have time to care for the child, this is not Rune Factory or Harvest Moon where your spouse is nice enough to stay home (most of the time) and where the is a lovely community to take care of the child should the player character and lover be absent.

There is a good change that a both player and lover will be out fighting for weeks at a time. They also led violent lives that likely leads to an far too early death.

Simply speaking, getting a child in the state of life where we are likely to be when we play an RPG, is irressponsible and can border on neglect.

Most often it is simply not the time and better something to be waited for in the future after the end of the game, when the player characters life has a change to be somewhat settled.

Nah, that's not convincing.  Protagonists in video games rarely have time to maintain any sort of relationship, at least not during "on screen" time.  Either say that child rearing happened off camera or address the "neglect" issue by making the character feel guility. 

And who ever said anything about the child belonging to the player and a "lover" who is on the adventuring "team"?  You've been playing too many Bioware videogames.  It could be the child of a deceased parent, or a parent who isn't on the team, a niece taken in when her parents were killed, etc.

I'm not saying children definitely need to be included.  I'm agnostic on the point.  But the problems you raise don't present any insurmountable obstacles.

Happend off camera by who? That is just bad writing and we might as well not have a child if it is not going to play a larger role.

And I doubt they would force the any feelings on our character.

This is bioware games we are talking about. The lover is going to be on the adventuring team, 8/10 bioware LI are. An adopted child is a completely different from what was asked for (which was an child with the Li), but it could be an interesting way to test out the waters, so to speak.

Of course they are not imsurmountable obstacles, but they are still obstabelces and would force bioware to radically change the way they write stories and how the LI dynamic functions to make it work.

And we also have the issue of time. Bioware write a sense of passing time reallly, really bad and sadly after da2 there will likely be no time skip, so what are we going to do with the pregant female who is mostly likely on the fighting team.

And I can also tell you now already, this will open a can of worm named 'social norm', of what is expected for women and men when it comes to child rearing. It can get ugly really fast, and this is a can of worm not worth opening unless it is done right. It should not be done just for a cheap gimmick.

Still nothing convincing.  Sorry.

There are any number of folks who can tend the day-to-day needs of a child.  Spouse not in the party, servants, grandparents, etc.   What makes it bad writing?  Millions upon millions of children grow up under these circumstances; ever heard of the military?  And who said anything about a small role?  All we know is that it's a non-party-member NPC, you can write them as big or small as you like.  And timing is flexible.  You could start the game with a child; you started DA2 with close family members, after all.  Or you could do a time skip.  What evidence do we have that "Bioware [categorically] handles them badly"?  One deeply flawed game?

It's one thing to say, "Bioware won't do it."  I tend to agree.   But saying "Bioware can't do it well" is objectively wrong.  That's the kind of thinking that gets us the same basic story in practically every Bioware game.  Gamers are an older, more diverse group than they were 15 years ago.  We're not all looking to roleplay a 19 year old single person thrown into the world for the first time, looking for hook ups when not adventuring. 

And as for "social norms" ... seriously?  The company that goes out of its way to include gay sex in every game?  Sorry, Bioware rightly ignores this kind of argument.

I am going to handle your complaints in random order, sorry,

Bioware does not rightly ignores the social argument. Leliana and Zev was... well a very special kind of bi-sexual full of freudian excuses, it is first recently they moved away from that (Which is good, now they can take the next step which I believe they do) And I some argument can do wihtouh here on BSN unless the reason for them are well included in game. A bad showcase of going outside the social norm is... not really a step foreward. That being said, they have been making steps foreward and right now it is good, but it sure took a long way to come here and I will rather that those steps foreward becomes cemented.

As for passing of time. Bioware can't handle it. It is not just da2, da2 actuallyt handled the sense of time passing well, they just screwed up the time skips badly and failed to use the.- It is ALL there their games. You have no idea how long it takes to travel from x to y and since you do a lot of travel (presumely on foot) it becomes confusing how much times that actually have passed. For example Wynne will randomly state to the mage warden that a year has passed no matter if the Broken Circle is the first or last treaty quest which of course doesn't make sense. Bioware simply don't do passing of time, they apperently can't figure out how to.

You are the one keeping to add motives to me that I don't have. I have never stated to want to be playing a 19 year old person thrown into the world for the first time. I highly enjoyed being close to 30 at the end off dragon age 2 (as well as living with me LI). I truely felt that my Hawke had matured.

It makes it bad writing in that there is no need for the child to be in the story. The child becomes a gimmick. An empty line at the end of the dialog with no need to be there other than wishfullfillment. (epilog only child) There is a rule named conversion of details when it comes to narratives, a child is something that should matter, if the parents have unusal lifes styles it should be adressed since the reason to add the child in the first place was to enrich the PC's roleplaying and thereby personality. If it simply is there and does nothing... then it might as well not have been.

You keep making it sound like I hate the idea, I don't. But I do think that there is a lot of obstableces (no matter if you regonize them or not) and I don't think that dragon age is the franchinse to explore it in.

As said before a PC with a child is something that needs to be done well and right the first time it is tried, which is hard to do, else it should not be done. I am not sure that the extremely violent world of Dragon Age is the right place to do it. At least not untill they got the other family ascpect up and running.

And I find your argument completely unconvincing as well, espcially since you tends to sneer at me. Please stop doing that, thank you.