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[andy6915]

It's probably not going to be easy, and I'll probably have to be very specific on who I bring to what quest and what dialogue I choose. Any advice at possibly pulling this off?

[IanPolaris]

andy69156915 wrote...

It's probably not going to be easy, and I'll probably have to be very specific on who I bring to what quest and what dialogue I choose. Any advice at possibly pulling this off?

It's actually not that hard.  The secret is to try to max out a friendship or rivalry (after which it becomes locked).  For Act I, I would recruit Fenris and Meril late and use Bethany as your primary Mage.  I would then do the explicitly pro-mage missions (saving Feynriel and Act of Mercy) using Bethany as your mage and Aveline as your tank.  I would also not take Fenris to the Gallows until after you have maxxed your friendship with him.
*Note:  If you recruit Fenris beforfe finishing the Fenyriel quest in Act I, take Fenris to see the Slavers in Darktown (and ONLY that part of the Feynriel mission...use Aveline for the rest of it), and you will get a special cut scene that enables Fenris to kill Danzig.  Take it for +15 Fenris approval.


When you first recruit Fenris and you are a mage, you have to say you use your magic "for survival".  This will give the least number of rivalry points off the bat with Fenris (you will ALWAYS get some if you are a mage...it is unavoidable).  You can immediately go in, and generally pick the diplomatifc options when talking with Fenris in his house.  Hate slavery,  and listen and be sympathetic to his whining, and you will get friendship points.

During Act II, take Fenris with you when doing Merrill's special mission and do NOT take Anders.  Chew Merril out, say that Pol was afraid of her, and basically kick Merril like a little puppy...and of course keep the Elven Carving Knife for yourself.  This will get approval from Fenris and big rivalry from Merrill and is not anti-mage (it's why you keep Anders away...Anders actually agrees with Fenris on this).  Likewise look for Tarhone's books and destroy them when Merill is in the party (and you can have both Fenris and Anders in the party when you do).  Each book you destroy gives +10 rivalry to Merrill.  If you combine both of these fairly early in Act II, you should quickly get Merrill to 100% rivalry.  Once you do, you can always have her in the party.

Take Anders with you to the Deep Roads.  This always generates rivalry with Anders.  Also flat out call Anders an abomination or out of control in act I, and that will gain rivalry.  During Act II, dissent, do not initially show Anders Ser Alrik's papers.  Instead take the agressive "what happened in there' responses and be critical of him (except for asking him to leave....he goes forever if you do).  That is good for 55 Rivalry right there. 

One Merill or Anders (or ideally both) are 100% rivalry, then take Fenris on an outdoor mission.  That will trigger his mission (but do so before the end of Act II regardless).  During his Hunt Hadrianna mission, be sypathetic to Oranna the slave, and offer her a job.  This will get +15 Approval from Fenris.  Also say he's not a slave for a bit more on the initial confronatation with the hunters.  Finally after the battle with Hadrianna, ask if he wants to talk about it and be sympathetic.  NEVER throw the fact you are a mage in his face...he is well aware.  Of do find the Book of Shartan in the Alienage (at knight) and give it to Fenris in his home.  Finally in Act II, take Fenris with you when facing the Arishok.  If you haven't earned the respect of the Arishock, Fenris will propose a Duel.  If you accept, you earn Friendship points with Fenris.

Finally in Act III, side and be sympathetic when Fenris meets his sister and kills Denarius and DO NOT let him kill his sister.  Then talk with him afterwards in his home.  You can do this almost immediately at the beginning of Act III (and who you side with during the speech in Act III will not affect any character). 

I think you get the idea.  If you are choosy about which missions you take which companions, it's not too hard IMHO to rival Merill and Andres both and befriend Fenris and still get a pro-mage playthrough.

-Polaris

[andy6915]

That was helpful. But I have 2 questions now.

Why does letting Fenris kill his sister matter to befriending him?

Are you sure you listed enough example to max out Anders rivalry? It didn't seem like there's enough there to max him.

[IanPolaris]

andy69156915 wrote...

That was helpful. But I have 2 questions now.

Why does letting Fenris kill his sister matter to befriending him?

Are you sure you listed enough example to max out Anders rivalry? It didn't seem like there's enough there to max him.

I believe you get better Friendship bonuses if you let his sister live.  Not sure since I usually have Fenris maxxed out by this time anyway.

As for Anders, I am leaving some stuff out.  Basically don't take him on the pro-mage missions in Act I, and be extremely critical of Justice when talking with him post Tranquility and Post-Dissent.  You can also choose dialog when giving his gift in Act II (Tevinter Chantry Amulet) that will increase rivalry as well.  It's harder to increase Ander's Rivalry than Merrill's but not too much harder.

-Polaris

[LobselVith8]

IanPolaris wrote...

andy69156915 wrote...

That was helpful. But I have 2 questions now.

Why does letting Fenris kill his sister matter to befriending him?

Are you sure you listed enough example to max out Anders rivalry? It didn't seem like there's enough there to max him.

I believe you get better Friendship bonuses if you let his sister live.  Not sure since I usually have Fenris maxxed out by this time anyway.

You get Friendship if you say Fenris is "no one's slave" in Act III's Alone.  You also get Friendship if you allow Fenris to kill his sister, but you get Rivalry with Anders, Aveline, and Sebastian for that act (10 points for Aveline, and 5 with Anders and Sebastian). You might already gain enough Friendship with Fenris at this time for this not to be a concern. Once you've maxed out their Friendship or Rivalry, you can simply make the choices you feel like making, without concerning yourself about losing points.

IanPolaris wrote...

As for Anders, I am leaving some stuff out.  Basically don't take him on the pro-mage missions in Act I, and be extremely critical of Justice when talking with him post Tranquility and Post-Dissent.  You can also choose dialog when giving his gift in Act II (Tevinter Chantry Amulet) that will increase rivalry as well.  It's harder to increase Ander's Rivalry than Merrill's but not too much harder.

-Polaris

In Act I, you can get rivalry by sending Idunna to the templars (Enemies Among Us), rejecting Sister Petrice's offer (Shepherding Wolves), handing Ketojan over to the Arvaarad (although you might not chose this if you're trying to be pro-mage, depending on your perspective of the situation), and making a deal with the demon in the Deep Roads expedition (as well as bringing Anders with you). In Act II, at least 20 rivalry points can be gained in Act II's "Visit Anders" with the right dialogue options, if you flirt wih him; without flirting, you can get at least 15 rivalry points. As Ian pointed out, you can get another 20 rivalry points by choosing aggressive options in "Dissent", but make sure you get Anders to remain as a companion at the conclusion of the conversation.

[coldwetn0se]

If you are looking for some extra points for both Fenris and Anders, using Merrill's recruitment works quite well (this works well BECAUSE she is not yet in your party; no F/R points for her, just current companions). For example: for friendship points, take Fenris and when Merrill opens the way to the graveyard with BM, use the "you mean the demon" option on the dialogue wheel (+10 F points for Fenris). Another +5 points for Fenris can be added once you all return to the Alienage with Merrill (still won't affect her in anyway), by stating you are not sure about visiting her.

As for Anders, take him instead of Fenris, and pretty much do the opposite. By being naive or sympathetic to Merrill at that moment (I usually rp it as though I don't feel familiar enough with Merrill to condone or condemn the BM thing at the Sundermount graveyard) you gain rivalry (+10, I think?) for Anders.

I also have one other trick for Friending Fenris/Rivaling Anders, and that is the "Wayward Son" quest. This is strictly how I use it to my advantage, while still having a reasonable way to RP the choices (and still be pro-mage). 1.Take Fenris with you to kill Danzig. 2. Leave Fenris behind when going to the Gallows. 3. Take both Anders and Fenris to the slavers cave, kill slavers, and send Feynriel to the circle. Now I realize this may sound silly if you are pro-mage, but this is how I have viewed it: Feynriel's mother is the one who initiates the quest, and her request is for him to go to the circle to be safe. Since it isn't difficult for me to imagine some of my Hawkes being respectful of the mother's wishes and feeling that Thrask will be helpful and kind (and being very wary of the risk of Feynriel becoming an "uber" abomination), I can generally rp a reason to send him to the Circle. Granted, it probably doesn't hurt that I "know" (meta much...lol) that his fate is pretty much fubar whether in the circle or with the Dalish, and that his only respite comes by learning his "gift", then letting him go on his own to Tevinter (which I do let him do).

Besides, I often RP Hawkes that may have an "inclination" towards say "pro-mage", but they don't become ardent towards it until some time (and experience) has passed. This especially works well with Rogue/Warrior Hawkes who may not have had the same teachings or dealings that a Mage Hawke did....especially if you are imagining them heading off to join the army even before the blight.

[andy6915]

I often do actually send Feynriel even as pro mage most of the time too. My RP reason is that I figure that the Templars might attack the Dalish to try to take him to the circle, and would rather not them get attacked because I let Feynriel use them as shelter.

[LobselVith8]

andy69156915 wrote...

I often do actually send Feynriel even as pro mage most of the time too. My RP reason is that I figure that the Templars might attack the Dalish to try to take him to the circle, and would rather not them get attacked because I let Feynriel use them as shelter.

The templars actually do that. If you visit Sundermount before "Night Terrors", you learn that a group of templars tortured one of their da'len (child) hunters for information on Feynriel, and there is a confrontation between a group of Dalish hunters and templar soldiers. The templar leader of the group seems to be racist, too. You can persuade the templars to back down, or actually help the Dalish kill the templars; I follow through with the latter option.

[IanPolaris]

andy69156915 wrote...

I often do actually send Feynriel even as pro mage most of the time too. My RP reason is that I figure that the Templars might attack the Dalish to try to take him to the circle, and would rather not them get attacked because I let Feynriel use them as shelter.

I do not consider sending Feynriel back to the circle to be pro-mage which is why I didn't suggest it (and I don't think the game itself does either aka for Achievement purposes).

-Polaris

[andy6915]

LobselVith8 wrote...

The templars actually do that. If you visit Sundermount before "Night Terrors", you learn that a group of templars tortured one of their da'len (child) hunters for information on Feynriel, and there is a confrontation between a group of Dalish hunters and templar soldiers. The templar leader of the group seems to be racist, too. You can persuade the templars to back down, or actually help the Dalish kill the templars; I follow through with the latter option.

Guess I was right. 

IanPolaris wrote...

I do not consider sending Feynriel
back to the circle to be pro-mage which is why I didn't suggest it (and I
don't think the game itself does either aka for Achievement purposes).

-Polaris

No, it's not pro-mage. But it is pro-not-making-the-Dalish-a-target. As Merril says, the only reason the Templars let the Dalish be (having apostate keepers after all) is because they're not worth persuing and are beneath notice enough to not be important. But by harbouring an apostate from Kirkwall, an aspostate the circle and Templars know about, they're suddenly a much higher value target to attack.

I looked up that quest Lobsel mentioned. They only attack once. But realistically, the Templars would probably just send an entire army after the Dalish and wipe them out utterly after the first Templar squad was killed by them. From an RP perspective, sending him to the Dalish should get the clan marked high on the Templars s*** list, and they would just send a bigger and bigger company not just to get the mage back, but also retribution for killing Templars that were "just trying to do their 'sacred' duty". Risk Merril's clan getting slaughtered because of one mage I felt bad for? Idiotic and short-sighted. That clan really doesn't need the entire Kirkwall Templar organization declaring war on them. I feel bad for it, and they are the better choice to deal with his night terrors, but he's too dangerous to let him stay in their clan because he's a mage. I don't mean that in a "he'll become an abomination and kill them all" way, instead I mean it in a "he'll draw Templars like moths to a flame, and they'll attack anyone who tried to protect him from them" way. The Templars are the real danger in harbouring illegal mages, not the mages themselves.

[thats1evildude]

It's more difficult to befriend Fenris on a pro-mage path, but I did it. I also managed to be-friend Anders and Merrill.

The key is to be very supportive of Fenris in his personal dialogues and make sure to find his gifts in Act 2 and 3.

[IanPolaris]

andy69156915 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The templars actually do that. If you visit Sundermount before "Night Terrors", you learn that a group of templars tortured one of their da'len (child) hunters for information on Feynriel, and there is a confrontation between a group of Dalish hunters and templar soldiers. The templar leader of the group seems to be racist, too. You can persuade the templars to back down, or actually help the Dalish kill the templars; I follow through with the latter option.

Guess I was right. 

IanPolaris wrote...

I do not consider sending Feynriel
back to the circle to be pro-mage which is why I didn't suggest it (and I
don't think the game itself does either aka for Achievement purposes).

-Polaris

No, it's not pro-mage. But it is pro-not-making-the-Dalish-a-target. As Merril says, the only reason the Templars let the Dalish be (having apostate keepers after all) is because they're not worth persuing and are beneath notice enough to not be important. But by harbouring an apostate from Kirkwall, an aspostate the circle and Templars know about, they're suddenly a much higher value target to attack.

I looked up that quest Lobsel mentioned. They only attack once. But realistically, the Templars would probably just send an entire army after the Dalish and wipe them out utterly after the first Templar squad was killed by them. From an RP perspective, sending him to the Dalish should get the clan marked high on the Templars s*** list, and they would just send a bigger and bigger company not just to get the mage back, but also retribution for killing Templars that were "just trying to do their 'sacred' duty". Risk Merril's clan getting slaughtered because of one mage I felt bad for? Idiotic and short-sighted. That clan really doesn't need the entire Kirkwall Templar organization declaring war on them. I feel bad for it, and they are the better choice to deal with his night terrors, but he's too dangerous to let him stay in their clan because he's a mage. I don't mean that in a "he'll become an abomination and kill them all" way, instead I mean it in a "he'll draw Templars like moths to a flame, and they'll attack anyone who tried to protect him from them" way. The Templars are the real danger in harbouring illegal mages, not the mages themselves.

Either way, if you ARE going to send Feynriel to the circle, then you should have Fenris, Merrill, and Anders all in the party when you do given your goals since that will gain Fenris approval and (a lot of) rivalry with both Merrill and Anders then.

-Polaris

[andy6915]

^
Excellent. Only problem is that I'll miss experience if I'm not a rogue, because a non-rogue Hawke+2 mages+a warrior isn't going to opening crap. Might be worth it though, the respective friend and rival points makes it sound like it may be worth it.