264 réponses à ce sujet

[Invisig0th]

<snip, double post>

Modifié par Invisig0th, 13 février 2013 - 02:20 .

[Invisig0th]

Pstemarie wrote...
Henesua's criteria is set.

Incorrect again. Henesua has not said one way or the other whether republishing is required here. In fact, when I said that he seemed to be saying that he would reject anything he could not republish, he got quite upset and said that he said no such thing. So as you can see, the matter is hardly settled.

Or are you saying that it's not appropriate for me to ask for guidance regarding whether or not my module would be suitable for this challenge, in the thread discussing what content will be allowed for the challenge?

Thanks for stopping by and throwing more gas on the fire. Nice contribution.

Modifié par Invisig0th, 13 février 2013 - 02:30 .

[Pstemarie]

Invisig0th wrote...

Pstemarie wrote...
Henesua's criteria is set.

Wrong again. Henesua HAS NOT SAID
ONE WAY OR THE OTHER WHETHER REPUBLISHING IS REQUIRED. In fact, when I asserted that he HAD said he would reject anything he could not
republish, he got quite upset and challenged that assertion. So you
clearly have not read the posts above -- neither mine nor his.

Do us all a favor and read the thread before chiming in next time.

Re-read the first post, please. This is "In the Spirit of the Custom Content Challenge" and in the next to last bullet point it states that "submissions" be "...sent via email." This clearly implies that the content is to be published in a compilation of sorts. Furthermore, with a resource page already up on the Vault, its safe to assume that the Vault will be the chosen medium to get the submitted content out to end users.

P.S. I read the above posts -  evidently more than you did 

[MagicalMaster]

Look, I know some people are frustrated, but why don't we just drop this until Henesua is able to clarify matters?

Invisig0th, that's your chief concern at the moment, right? Not knowing exactly what Henesua expects for this month?

Nobody can say anything about that but Henesua, so let's just wait for him to clarify where he stands.

[Invisig0th]

Pstemarie wrote...
Re-read the first post, please. This is "In the Spirit of the Custom Content Challenge" and in the next to last bullet point it states that "submissions" be "...sent via email." This clearly implies that the content is to be published in a compilation of sorts. Furthermore, with a resource page already up on the Vault, its safe to assume that the Vault will be the chosen medium to get the submitted content out to end users.

Did you completely miss the part where Hensua got upset when I said that he appeared to be saying that submissions that could not be republished would be 'rejected'?  If republishing is required, as you claim above, then entries that cannot be republished would therefore be rejected. Hensua reacted very negatively to the idea that he would reject those entries, and I trust him at his word. He seemed to be going out of his way to emphasize that author publishing was not an immediate disqualification. 

Which is the complete opposite of what you just said above. Henesua is the organizer of this challenge, and it's his call -- not
yours. But thanks for further muddying the waters. Good contribution!

Also, please note: I am not insisting that Henesua invent a workaround to accomodate me. I'm simply asking whether or not there will be a workaround before I sink the next two weeks of my life into a module. It would really suck to not get included if there turns out to be  no workaround. That is a reasonable request for clarification, and you have no business acting as if I'm out of line by asking.

Modifié par Invisig0th, 13 février 2013 - 02:52 .

[Invisig0th]

MagicalMaster wrote...
Nobody can say anything about that but Henesua, so let's just wait for him to clarify where he stands.

Well said. Agreed.

Modifié par Invisig0th, 13 février 2013 - 02:43 .

[Pstemarie]

Not sure why you're going all medieval on my buttocks. Like you, I'm merely "speaking" my own interpretation of what I've read, not trying to make a decision for someone and certainly not trying to "...speak for" Henesua.

So tell me - why is it you can voice your opinions and interpretations, but because I don't agree with you, you expect me to not voice mine?

Lastly, you might want to tone down the "I speak for the Community" nonsense. "Do us all a favor..." Geesh...

[Invisig0th]

Read it again. Henesua said the exact opposite of what you said. Should I not point out your error, which is highly indicative of someone who has not read the thread?

Please lose the personal attacks and attempt to be constructive. A locked threade helps no one.

Modifié par Invisig0th, 13 février 2013 - 02:55 .

[Pstemarie]

Where's the IGNORE button...

[Invisig0th]

If you need help blocking a user, I'd be happy to direct you to the instructions on how to do so.

[Pstemarie]

I blocked you some time ago, just wish your posts wouldn't show up. This thread would look a lot cleaner.

I will say though that if you've construed anything I've said as a "personal attack", I apologize for that. It wasn't meant that way.  But again, anything's open to interpretation, because I'm sure some of your barbs were taken personally by the people on the receiving end.

I will go back and re-read some more - and if I feel I was wrong I'll "man-up" and admit it, but until then let's just agree to not poke the bear in each other's dens. As MM, pointed out all this back and forth is getting nowhere. 

Modifié par Pstemarie, 13 février 2013 - 03:07 .

[Pstemarie]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this what I've gotten out of ALL the tirades and posts - after reading them all three times...

To sum it up:

• Henesua prefers that submissions be submitted and managed by the ABC (i.e. him).
• At contributer's request he will take down a submitted module after an unspecified amount of time has passed.
• He is willing to work out a solution with contributers that don't wish to submit, but hasn't worked out the exact details yet.
• You will not participate because you do not want two versions of the same module being posted on the Vault - one potentially bugged and one potentially fixed.
• You are unhappy with Henesua's response to your philosophical differences with him concerning the way that content is submitted and maintained for the ABC.

Ok, now that we've got a summary, I stand by my original view. My grandfather always used to say, "If you're not going to eat from the banquet why throw pepper in the stew?"

I do concede the point about your concern over bugs and what not, but give the guy a break. He's trying to do something good for the Community and generate some interest in all those new players coming in from GOG and Impulse. In the greater scheme of things does it really matter that he hasn't YET come up with a solution that meets your desires?

Skip the February challenge - not enough time to put something forward anyway and see how things go for March. If March doesn't work out, aim for April. I have every faith that, given enough time, Henesua will address your concerns.  

Modifié par Pstemarie, 13 février 2013 - 04:30 .

[Wensleydale]

Nerd rage on the Interwebs!

That's why I come here, you know -- to enlighten myself by reading another chapter of 'The Beginner's Guide To Pedantry'.

<...wanders off chuckling...>

[rogueknight333]

 Invisig0th, as someone who is sympathetic to your concerns (if you read my initial post in this thread on p. 3 you will see I tentatively raise some of the same issues), I think you are being somewhat unreasonable here. Henesua has indicated more than once that we are still figuring things out and are not entirely sure what we are doing. Given that circumstance, it is hardly surprising that he might want to think about it for a bit, and perhaps solicit opinions from others, before definitively declaring either that the existing rules are set in stone or are going to be altered. I suppose we could have waited until every detail of the challenge had been hashed out to everyone's satisfaction, but in that scenario the challenge stil would not have been started at this time next year, so it made sense to just forge ahead instead. Inevitably there will be a certain amount of ambiguity and confusion during the first month's challenge. If that state of affairs is unacceptable to you, then you can let others test the waters while keeping open the possiblity of participating in later challenges when the procedures are hopefully more settled.

Henesua chose to model this challenge on the CCC, presumably because that was a convenient template that many in the community were already familiar with, and thus a good way to get things started quickly. I agree with you that modules are a different kettle of fish from CC, and that in the long run following that model may well prove not to be the wisest course. However, for whatever my opinion is worth, I do not think any significant ex post facto changes to the rules should be implemented for this month's challenge, as that would only add to the confusion and uncertainty. Certainly it is worth considering improved procedures for later challenges.

Also, though there are some problems with it, I think there are a few advantages to having a consolidated entry:

1) It would be more convenient for players (for whom the builders are ultimately working) to be able to download all the modules in the challenge from a single page, rather than having to click through a bunch of links to do so.

2) It would avoid cluttering the vault with hordes of new entries. To give one example of why this might be worth doing, I know from my own submissions that modules typically get far more downloads while on the "New Modules" list than they do in any given period of time subsequent to getting bumped off it. It is very helpful to new authors to spend a reasonable period of time on that list, and if a bunch of new module entries are being added every month as part of the challenge, normal submissions might end up getting buried in this avalanche, rapidly bumped off the list, and being overlooked as a result.

3) It might actually be an advantage to noobish authors to have their work submitted in a context where judgment is likely to be more forgiving (since people will know that the modules in question were made in a month, and presumably adjust their expectations about the level of polish to be found accordingly) and more likely to be downloaded if it is found side by side with better known builders. By contrast, I think individual entries would have the effect of raising expectations and encouraging more selectivity about what challenge entries are downloaded.

This is not to say that there are not disadvantages to a consolidated entry as well, or necessarily that they do not outweigh these advantages, simply that, to be fair, there are arguments on both sides.

[MagicalMaster]

Pstemarie wrote...

- He is willing to work out a solution with contributers that don't wish to submit, but hasn't worked out the exact details yet.

- You will not participate because you do not want two versions of the same module being posted on the Vault - one potentially bugged and one potentially fixed.

Ok, now that we've got a summary, I stand by my original view. My grandfather always used to say, "If you're not going to eat from the banquet why throw pepper in the stew?"

I think it's more that Invisig0th is trying to figure out what a solution would be - and that Henesua, so far, has not clarified whether he will accept submissions that aren't emailed to him to be hosted.

If Henesua is willing to not host a potentially bugged version that's been fixed, Invisig0th would theoretically be happy to participate.  But right now that matter is unclear whether it's a preference or a requirement.

So I think it would be more that he wants to eat at the banquet but is trying to figure out what is being served at the banquet.

[Pstemarie]

rogueknight333 wrote...

If that state of affairs is unacceptable to you, then you can let others test the waters while keeping open the possiblity of participating in later challenges when the procedures are hopefully more settled.

Amen!

[meaglyn]

This is a adventure building challenge with a fixed deadline. That's the point of it. All this talk of fixing bugs after the deadline is really not relevant to the ABC. The module submission to the ABC needs to stay in that form, not be fixed and debugged after the fact. Otherwise the deadline in meaningless. By all means publish your own version and update that as you see fit.

A simple disclaimer (and link to a personal vault entry) saying "this is a beta snapshot for ABC purposes if you want to play a fixed version please us this other one. " should cover the problem of
people downloading and expecting perfection from the ABC modules.

If your module is too buggy to play at the deadline so be it. Mine probably will be too (if it even gets far enough for the gaps to be considered bugs and not just incompleteness). That's part of the challenge.

So I totally agree with Henesua, who by the way has not gotten personal and has been more than reasonable as far as I can see. There has to be some sort of snapshot of the modules at the deadline. And since people will want to play the modules as submitted for the challenge there needs to be a way to get that version, not the version the builder fixed up after the deadline. Otherwise what's the point of the due date.

Don't take yourself so seriously...

[henesua]

Oddly Invisig0th, you have invested me with powers I do not have. I do not know why that is, nor do I care.

I made a clear offer at the beginning, trust me and I'll do my best to respect your wishes. Yes, I will bend the rules for people. In truth there are no rules. And I certainly do not have any power to enforce them.

The only problem here is of your own making. If you wish to make that problem real for yourself, I can't stop you. You are the only one who can do anything about that. Because it is really this simple: as in all things in life, you can do whatever you like.

Put up or shut up, Invisig0th.

Produce a module, or do not.

It is that simple.

If you want anything from me, however, you need to offer something. At present, Invisig0th, you've offered nothing at all, and so I am not inclined to give you anything back. What this means is up to you to decide. As far as I am concerned, my time is too precious to waste on whatever it is that you think you are doing here.

And just so that this is clear:
I'll work with anyone who participates in the challenge to give them the recognition they deserve. If anyone doesn't wish to follow the criteria of the challenge posted at the top of the thread, then we'll have to work something out. But if you want something from the challenge, you are going to have to participate in the challenge. In other words, if you want to discuss the terms at which you offer your submission, you better have something to submit before I will discuss it with you.

[Tyndrel]

Thanks Henesua for all the time and effort you have put into this, there is bound to be the odd teething problem but given a couple of months they'll all be sorted out. Please don't be put off, this is a great idea.

[OldTimeRadio]

I just wanted to chip in some words of encouragement, too.  Any endeavour like this is going to undergo growing pains and tweaks here and there and that's perfectly normal.

I'm lost in another labrynth of my own making so I doubt I'll be able to contribute this month.  But for anyone who might need a little push in the right direction, structure-wise, I really like the concept of the Five Room Dungeon.  It's a great way to quickly get a framework for a module and it doesn't have to be a "dungeon" at all.  The concept can be modified, tweaked, or abstracted into whatever one needs it to be.  Some examples of the Five Room Dungeon concept can be found here (PDF).

Modifié par OldTimeRadio, 13 février 2013 - 05:45 .

[Tarot Redhand]

I found it a bit strange that Invisig0th apparently didn't know about the GOG contest of only a couple of years ago when they have been around nwn since 2002. I therefore did a little research and have a list of things that they might be interested in looking up, especially as a couple of these contradict some things that they said.

The contest thread (page 1 of 7), wherein nobody had any complaint about handing control of their module over to a third party (I know 'cos I re-read the whole thread).

The GOG page detailing the contest and winners. You will note that there was also a contest for model makers running in paralell with the module making one.

 The winning models.

The winning modules.

Other modules that were entered but didn't win as follows

Balduvard's
SuperFly_2000's and
CheeseshireCat's

While seeking out these links I discovered something very interesting. The following link  has CheeseshireCat detailing the fact that they had just uploaded their module to the vault. However, the really interesting thing is who created the very next thread (that just happened to precede CheeseshireCat's chronologically) as can be seen here.

Given the fact that  Invisig0th hasn't initiated or been the last poster in any thread on here for over 2 years, given the fact that  Invisig0th used to be active in both the custom content and module threads and given the fact that I am apparently forbidden to look at Invisig0th's profile I begin to wonder if the poster in this thread calling themselves  Invisig0th is really who they claim to be.

TR 

Modifié par Tarot Redhand, 13 février 2013 - 06:46 .

[Tyndrel]

@OldTimeRadio, Great link, I may be able to start (and finish) something after all

@ Tarot, Yes, the GOG contest was great fun, this will be too

[Wensleydale]

Tarot Redhand wrote...

Given the fact that  Invisig0th hasn't initiated or been the last poster in any thread on here for over 2 years, given the fact that  Invisig0th used to be active in both the custom content and module threads and given the fact that I am apparently forbidden to look at Invisig0th's profile I begin to wonder if the poster in this thread calling themselves  Invisig0th is really who they claim to be.

TR 

...And the plot thickens! Well done, Mr Holmes. Well done indeed.

And now, here's my unwanted and possibly offensive two cents:

If you don't like the (currently under construction, generously flexible and open to reasonable negotiation) 'rules'... don't participate. Don't force everyone to watch your sad orgy of self-flagellation as you ****** and moan about how much you don't like the rules, or that you're special and unique and a 'sensitive artist' and that life is so terribly unfair because no one understands either you or your work, etc, etc, ad infinitum... 

Because that just makes you look a bit silly. 

[henesua]

Alright folks, enough. I'd like to reign this in before this gets taken farther. My hope is that Invisig0th will return to participate - perhaps in a future month when I am able to formalize accommodations for his request. Obviously this is unlikely given his response, but insults certainly won't help matters.

While I did not appreciate Invisig0th's approach, I am sensitive to his request as I think it is valid, and I do think it can and should be accommodated. In fact Rolo and I discussed this same topic before he nudged me to start the thread. But I still have a bit of thinking to do on this.

Given how hot this topic has become, I am not going to risk fueling the fire again by thinking aloud here about possible changes to the ABC, but in a couple weeks or maybe days once this has settled down again I'd like to share my thoughts and discuss them.

[PLUSH HYENA of DOOM]

Being mad, unreasoningly hostile, rabid and of a highly questionable hybrid species of uncertain provenance, PHoD (whilst in no way wishing to provoke a second series of useless diatribes) wishes to bring to Henesua's notice a small problem that I have already mentioned once before. Maybe more than once...

Namely, this abhorred 12MB limit... I COMPLETELY agree with there being a limit to stop us all spending our whole month creating and amalgamating a wagon-load of CC and then finding there's no time to make a Module with it. I TOTALLY agree that the whole point of this ABC thing is NOT to make great Modules (pause for assorted dark mutters from all concerned including myself), or to spend months afterward turning them into something entirely different, but is just to have fun throwing a few simple, small Modulettes out there and mess around like children in a (small) sandbox...

I'm with this 100% - despite having to give up on a few Custom Music tracks as I don't want to go cluttering the Vault with subs for a few bits of music though Henesua graciously made the option available - but... (finally comes to the point), due to a few ESSENTIAL Module Specific Portraits, my 12MB is now standing at a hideously bulky and noxiously mutated 12.7MB even though I've removed a few extra Placeables and a couple of Texture overrides... Um, can we kind've pretend 12MB just means UNDER 13MB? Pleeeeeeeease? Rolls over, sticks all four paws in air, attempts (unconvincingly) to look cute and harmless.

Modifié par PLUSH HYENA of DOOM, 14 février 2013 - 06:16 .