119 réponses à ce sujet

[CptPatch]

The Codex makes mention of what happens whenElves and Humans mix, but fails to make mention of any other combination.  Now is it in the Codex because it's a legit explanation, or because BioWare simply didn't want to deal with half-breeds?  If it's legit, then where's the cultural backup?  "Your mother was an Elf!"  ""Your father must have been really drunk!"  The acrimony would have been just as bad as a Causasian/****** mix in the Deep South circa 1930.  The fact that, according to the Codex, offspring look like humans does not consider the impact of having an Elven parent.  How many human families would allow such an abomination into their home?  If anything, it would be worse than the way Dwarven families deal with casteless offspring.  However, in Dwarven society I can readily see a casteless family would take in a spurned casteless child, just because of their shared misfortune.  A half-breed Elf/Human otoh, would most likely be spurned by both Elves and Humans.  There's a wealth of pathos there that BioWare chose NOT show us.

Then there's the lack of ANY info concerning Dwarf/Elf and Dwarf/Human pairings.  (I won't even suggest any Qun combinations.  It would be like trying to visualize a Watusi/Pygmy mix.  But then, Chihuahuas _have_ been known to mate with MUCH larger breeds.)  Given that BioWare actually encourages liasons between Zev and any Dwarven Hero, such things _must_ be fairly commonplace.  Does the absence of _any_ Codex reference = "there will be NO offspring"?  Or more likely, that BioWare simply doesn't want to make their work more complicated?

I raised this whole issue because "realistically", there _would_ be half-breeds.  Just because a LOT of people (besides BioWare)  would rather not bother with races and classes and equipment and whatever else doesn't mean the streamlined version is more "right".  It just means that a LOT of people -- but no means _all_ -- prefer to deal with a Cliffnotes view of their game world.  And it's simplifies BioWare's task to simply pull a deus ex machina:  "It works this way because we said so."

[Iris562]

CptPatch wrote...

The Codex makes mention of what happens whenElves and Humans mix, but fails to make mention of any other combination.  Now is it in the Codex because it's a legit explanation, or because BioWare simply didn't want to deal with half-breeds?  If it's legit, then where's the cultural backup?  "Your mother was an Elf!"  ""Your father must have been really drunk!"  The acrimony would have been just as bad as a Causasian/****** mix in the Deep South circa 1930.  The fact that, according to the Codex, offspring look like humans does not consider the impact of having an Elven parent.  How many human families would allow such an abomination into their home?  If anything, it would be worse than the way Dwarven families deal with casteless offspring.  However, in Dwarven society I can readily see a casteless family would take in a spurned casteless child, just because of their shared misfortune.  A half-breed Elf/Human otoh, would most likely be spurned by both Elves and Humans.  There's a wealth of pathos there that BioWare chose NOT show us.

Then there's the lack of ANY info concerning Dwarf/Elf and Dwarf/Human pairings.  (I won't even suggest any Qun combinations.  It would be like trying to visualize a Watusi/Pygmy mix.  But then, Chihuahuas _have_ been known to mate with MUCH larger breeds.)  Given that BioWare actually encourages liasons between Zev and any Dwarven Hero, such things _must_ be fairly commonplace.  Does the absence of _any_ Codex reference = "there will be NO offspring"?  Or more likely, that BioWare simply doesn't want to make their work more complicated?

I raised this whole issue because "realistically", there _would_ be half-breeds.  Just because a LOT of people (besides BioWare)  would rather not bother with races and classes and equipment and whatever else doesn't mean the streamlined version is more "right".  It just means that a LOT of people -- but no means _all_ -- prefer to deal with a Cliffnotes view of their game world.  And it's simplifies BioWare's task to simply pull a deus ex machina:  "It works this way because we said so."

Actually, since Elves are from fantasy, and don't really exist in real-life; there's no reason why Bioware can't say, "Half-Breeds don't exist in our world."

[Elanareon]

Sloth Of Doom wrote...

Iris562 wrote...

Sloth Of Doom wrote...

ushae wrote...

Agreed I like the concept of a certain races having dominant or recessive phenotypes when passing on their genes, makes more sense. Rather than a perfect in the middle hybrid.
Does the same principle apply to dwarves and humans when it comes to dominance, or is a 50:50 thing ?

I haven't seen anything in game or the books that mention a dwarven/human cross.  It is quite possible that the produce no children at all.   Just because you can have sex with it doesn't mean it can have your baby, thank the Maker.

Same thing happens in real-life too, hence why we haven't seen TOO many Liger's running amok. xD

The Liger actually exists.  I crap you not.  Panthera leo and Panthera tigris are of the same genus and can produce offspring.  The earliest known records of a natural Liger birth go back to 1799.  

There are actualy Tigons too, but they are much less common (and smaller)

Biologists that find this interesting may wish to read about  growth dysplasia in hybrid big cats, but I doubt it

How is THAT for derailing this thead? :innocent:

Wow, this is quite cool. We had a thesis back in college interbreeding two species of fish but the same genus as well.  Just remembered the agony of it... 

[Xaila]

I thought I read somewhere that Dwarves and Humans can produce offspring but it's VERY rare. Not sure if it was an actual codex entry or something I read on the forums from an 'official' source.



As for the Elves/Humans thing...is it just that their offspring take all of the obvious physical traits of humans, or are they actually genetically the same as a 100% human? I'm sure it doesn't make a difference to the average denizen of Thedas anyway since I doubt they have DNA analysis, but still.

[Sloth Of Doom]

You say that 'realistically' there would be half-breeds, but since we have no idea if the various races have a common genus, it is quite possible that realistically that there WOULDN'T be half-breeds. Why d you assume that all races can interbreed when there is no mention of it? Saying that Bioware is basically copping out because YOU feel there should be half-breeds deosn't make it so. In fact, it shows how small minded you are being in assuming that crossbreeding has to work the same way as D&D and its derivatives.



Yes, Bioware didn't explore the human born to an elf mother, which is a bit of a missed opportunity, IMHO. That doesn't mean they didn't want to deal with it, but more likely the writers were pressed for time enough enough not to explore a rathe in-depth subject such as this.

[Iris562]

Xaila wrote...

I thought I read somewhere that Dwarves and Humans can produce offspring but it's VERY rare. Not sure if it was an actual codex entry or something I read on the forums from an 'official' source.

As for the Elves/Humans thing...is it just that their offspring take all of the obvious physical traits of humans, or are they actually genetically the same as a 100% human? I'm sure it doesn't make a difference to the average denizen of Thedas anyway since I doubt they have DNA analysis, but still.

Well, I mean if you look at it that way; yes, it's entirely possible that a Elf/Human would look, talk, walk, smile, etc. like a Human, but have one or two elf qualities such as higher stamina, or higher affinity for magic, or wanting to talk to trees.

[CptPatch]

Well, gee, it's _fantasy_; it can be whatever we want. Well, let's see.... There's no mention of gravity; should we assume that "What goes up must come down" doesn't apply? There's no mention of Chemistry: I wonder what happens if you mix ground charcoal, sulfur, and saltpeter? No kaboom in this fantasy world?



How about we assume that NOTHING that isn't laid out in detail in the Codex exists? And all you people making suggestions: you're wasting your time. Because if it was meant to exist, it would already be there.



Bogus argument, you think? So is, "If I like it, it's Good; if I don't, it's Bad,"



The three races are clearly humanoid and share common genitalia. Just consider the genus "dog" (Canis). You have breeds as disparate as Chihuahuas and mastiffs. Yet no matter how wildlly different they seem from one another, they can rut with one another (sort of like what goes on in Camp!) and produce viable offspring, resulting in quite a few bizarre cross-breeds.



Perhaps the every variation of the word "real" simply should NOT be allowed in _any_ discussion about game design. If so, the prohibition should be emblazoned as a banner across the top of the forum: "THERE IS NO PLACE FOR REALITY IN GAMING __ SO DON'T LOOK FOR IT HERE."

[AnoraBlows]

I don't think dwarves are a different race from humans and neither are elves a different race. Being of a different race implies being of a shared species (for example, Mongoloids, Caucasoids, and Negroids are all humans but different races). Dwarves, humans, and elves may not be of the same species. Genetically speaking, if interbreeding WAS possible between them, the offspring would be sterile and would die off. To actually maintain a population of half-breeds/hybrids, you would require controlled mating between different species since the offspring would not be able to reproduce.



There's a reason why we haven't seen any half-human, half-(insert animal here) running around these days, despite the fact that human history (and human present) is filled with stories of bestiality (an example I can think of is of a Hindu goddess who is said to have had sex with a horse so we know that these ideas existed as far back as 3000 years ago).

[Liliandra Nadiar]

I think about all we can say as a certainty is that Dwarfs, Elves and Humans are all of the Mammal class. Beyond that... *shrugs* Just because that Canine and that Feline are similar in build/size doesn't mean they can have offspring.



And though I'm somewhat surprised the issue of the Dark ritual hasn't been brought up, that can be dismissed by the hated catch-all "magic, d'uh".

[Kyzzo]

If humans, elves and dwarves are merely "races"; that is, they belong to the same species, then they must be capable of interbreeding just fine. If they are different species, that means they can't interbreed (In the sense that such matings could not produce fertile offspring that can be expected to survive until sexual maturity to reproduce) regardless of whether or not they all belong to the same genus. Tigers and lions not only do not mate naturally, but their "forced" offsprings usually suffer from serious health issues and are not fertile. That's why they are classified as distinct species. If human/elf mating results in an all human-looking offspring, it simply means that all elven genes that manifest themselves in the physical appearance are recessive (Like the genes for blue eyes), in which case two half-human/half-elf parents could theoretically produce a fully elf child if the child gets all the [recessive] elven genes from both parents. However, do I expect a videogame, or any work of fiction for that matter, to always adhere to real life science? Not at all. The "DA universe" is what its creators say it is, and it works the way its creators say it works, and I enjoy it very much, scientifically accurate and precise or not.

[CptPatch]

Somebody provided a link that demonstrated that ligers in the wild had been observed as early as 1799.



If the three.... population groups were indeed distinctly different species, what is missing in ferelden is the VERY common societal onus attached to rutting with "animals". Doesn't mean it wouldn't happen from time to time. (Most anything can happen if there's enough alcohol involved.) Just the thought of copulating with a being that isn't of your own species tends to make most people go, "Eeeeewwwwww! That's nasty!" But then, there _are_ all those stories about how fond Scotsmen can be about their herds of sheep...... And all other such jokes.



And _that_ is what is missing. When Oghren starts joking about giving Wynne, she of all people should have shot back with, "Don't be so vile!" instead of dealing with him like he was just some drunk hitting on an old lady.



As I say, BioWare practically encourages the inter-whatever sexual liaisons, when, in fact, such would generally be cause for embarrassment. (Except maybe for Oghren, who doesn't seem to be too familiar with that emotion.) And if BioWare doesn't want to have anything to do with half-breeds, THAT is how they should have squelched such speculation in the first place.

[JTBehnke]

Iris562 wrote...

To tag on my prievious comment, that wasnt a jab at the dwarves per sey, more of a Elves have always seemed very picky when it comes to traditions and looks and romance; I mean hey, if an elf wants a dwarf to be the father/mother of his/her kid, that's their choice. xD Just nothing I've seen in fantasy or anything would lead me to believe Elves mating outside of other Elves, with the occasional Human exception.

That's true.  Most elves don't like breeding with humans since that's a one-way road to extinction.  It's why the Dalish are so reclusive, and why the Alienages arrange the marriages of the elves that live there with elves from other Alienages.

There's also a reason why we don't see half-dwarves of either human or elven stock.  Aside from the Warden, who doesn't really have much choice but to date a human or elf, most dwarves think that they're superior to the surface peoples.  Just the thought of having a romantic relationship, or worse, a sexual one, with a human or elf would probably make the average dwarf go sheet-white with horror.

[MerinTB]

I'm not going to say troll.  OP doesn't appear to be the troll type.



I will say, however - maybe overly passionate on the subject.

Tell us the truth, OP - you really are half-alien and are sick of being stygmitized because you are not pure Venusian.

[CptPatch]

MerinTB wrote...

I'm not going to say troll.  OP doesn't appear to be the troll type.



I will say, however - maybe overly passionate on the subject.

Tell us the truth, OP - you really are half-alien and are sick of being stygmitized because you are not pure Venusian.

How did you find out?  My father crrossed the border illegally and we've been living  in Venus Beach, CA (that's where he met Mom)  for, lo, these many years!

[David Gaider]

Without getting into the "why" behind the elves-and-humans-produce-humans thing (which I've talked about before), I will talk about why we didn't deal with it in the game. Primarily it's because we didn't have room. There's a lot of things that exist in the Thedas world that we weren't able to get into in Origins -- part of it is due to limited resources, but part of it is also because to properly address it we'd need to do it justice. We were already introducing the races and their situations, and adding on the complexity of explaining something that does need explanation would... get us what, exactly? You can't play one of the "elf-blooded" (this is what humans with mixed parentage are generally referred to, though I imagine "half-elf" could also be used in a slanderous fashion), and trying to explain the presence of a small number of humans in the alienage (as a for-instance) would have diluted the story we were already going for. Trying to fit everything that exists into the world in one story, after all, isn't really feasible.

I'd like to get into it. I think it's a possibility that has the potential for good drama, and even allowing the player to be elf-blooded might be cool in the future. But like I said, I'd want to do it justice. If your view on it is that you wanted half-elves to be there, and their omission is a fault -- then so be it. I can't really argue with that except to say that we don't think they're required. As some people have mentioned, it's not a widespread thing. Many elves resist having human children for cultural reasons, and many elf-blooded children will live amongst humans as full humans simply because they can get away with it and hiding their heritage means not having to suffer for it -- from humans as well as elves. Some few might be public about their identity, and unwilling to leave their parents behind, but like I said that belongs in another story.

Incidentally, for half-dwarves the situation is a bit different. Dwarves aren't a very fertile race to begin with, and far less so when it comes to mating with humans and elves. In fact, it would be considered rare... rare enough that it's considered more of an oddity than a group of its own. The result is also less stigmatized... primarily because it's also less noticeable. You end up with what would appear to be a tall dwarf or a short human. That calls for a new model -- which we weren't going to get, even if we wanted to address such a rare case. Again, it's certainly something we could do in the future, though such a character would still be considered unusual.

I imagine for those who really like their half-elves that's not a very satisfactory answer, but I hope it offers some light on the why's and wherefore's.

[fanman72]

Snooty Fereldan women give no love to the shorter guys????

[Valcutio]

I pretty much figured that was the reasoning, David. I truly hope you're able to fully explore the half-breeds and their drama in later installments.

[Ryldaun]

please no immortal flying human/elf/demon/dragon babys :I

there are plenty of games which provide stuff like this.

something similar: i prefer elves to be more like above human beeings unearthly beautiful,graceful either living in high citys of marble and gold or in the forest as part of it,mystical beeings but still something noble.. but dao elves are just not like that(at least not in the time the game takes place), but i got used to it.

[Valcutio]

Ryldaun wrote...

i prefer elves to be more like above human beeings unearthly beautiful,graceful either living in high citys of marble and gold or in the forest as part of it,mystical beeings but still something noble.

Ya, I'm glad they avoided this tired ass cliche.

[JackDresden]

CptPatch wrote...

We know from the Romance cutscenes that the various that the three main races can, indeed, have sex with one another.  In fact "men" and "women" can apply to _any_ race, rather than putting an emphasis on "Elvish men" or "Dwarven women".  It seems obvious that the genetic stock is at least close enough to yield viable offspring between mixed matches.  They're at least as close to one another as lions and tigers (= liger), or horses and donkeys (= mules).

So, where are the half-breeds?  (No derogatory intent.)

I can understand that adding half-breeds to the available character selection would have added a LOT more programming to the initial product, so understandably they were left out.  That's cool; I can cope with that.  But why aren't there any half-breeds to be encountered in Ferelden?  If the party members are freely jumping into each others' beds regardless of disparate racial backgrounds, then it should be happening pretty much everywhere.

If we occasionally encountered half-breeds in this game, it might be hoped that in future sequels the half-breed category would open up to character creation.  But now, having traversed the length and breadth of Ferelden, if we _do_ encounter a half-breed anything in DLC content or a sequel, it will come across as a shocking new development.

Firstly I would not assume genetic compatability on the grounds of Phenotypical similarity, an aligator and a crocodile may look similar they could even technically mate but are unlikley to produce any off spring. Lions and Tigers are a rare exception in that they are box geneticly and phenotypically similar enough to produce of spring although the off spring itself is infertile I believe as is often the case.

My point is you assume because they appear similar that dwarfs, elves & humans in dragon age have a common ancestor, rather than that they are the result of convergent evolution.

Now onto Dragon Age lore, I believe that humans and elves can produce off spring, but that human traits are dominant in the off spring, so to all intents and purposes they are human.

I do not believe that dwarves can produce off spring with humans or elves suggesting that they may belong to a genteics distinct line while humans and elves are probably closley related.

No doubt many people coming from D&D will still want to play a half-elf just because....but what can you do.

[JackDresden]

Sloth Of Doom wrote...

According to in-game lore the elven phenotype does not breed true when crossed with that of other races. Therefore the offspring of a human and an elf has a purely human genetic structure.

The only reason you expect half-races is the common D&D-centric thinking that so many forum goers seem to have.

Actually that suggest it would have a hybrid genetic structure but human phenotype. Interestingly this could mean that breeding to humans with one elven parent each could produce a true human 25% of the time, a human with half even genetics 50% of the time and a true elven phenotype and genetic type 25% of the time. So two apparently human characters could have an elven child.

[KristofCoulson]

Sloth Of Doom wrote...

Eurypterid wrote...

That's bit harsh, SoD, but my sentiments are similar. I'd have perhaps chosen 'unsavory' as opposed to lame.

Yeah, but you have to be nice, you have a fancy blue lable.   I have to be a dick because it keeps my inbox full of ineptly structured messages that contain more cursewords than a dockside bar in Boston.

So that's the key to getting mail!
Teach me, Shalafi!

[Ryldaun]

Valcutio wrote...

Ryldaun wrote...

i prefer elves to be more like above human beeings unearthly beautiful,graceful either living in high citys of marble and gold or in the forest as part of it,mystical beeings but still something noble.

Ya, I'm glad they avoided this tired ass cliche.

lol, Elves are elves for a reason, if there is nothing unearthly or magical about them then, well they aren't elves, no connection to the roots(mythology). But  they didn't avoid that "cliche" its just history when they still dwelled in arlathan , well actualy thats the cliche they used: to portray them as once real elves, but their realms and beauty is gone thats just like tolkien, dungeon&dragons, everquest,warcraft...
Half elves on the other hand are just not required, you get almost everything they provided in other games/books when playing a city elf, and half dwarfs are most often avoided anyway.

[Nuclear_Pony]

Can you imagine how a dwarf with part something else would be treated in Dwarven society ? I shudder to think of it. However a tree hugging dwarf would be funny (mind you, I love elves).

[David Gaider]

Nuclear_Pony wrote...
Can you imagine how a dwarf with part something else would be treated in Dwarven society ? I shudder to think of it. However a tree hugging dwarf would be funny (mind you, I love elves).

One thing to consider is that humans and elves don't often go to Orzammar. The dwarven city is very restrictive on who it allows to enter. So finding a half-dwarf in Orzammar would be exceptional almost beyond belief -- and when I said that a half-dwarf is less noticeable, that's only on the surface. Mainly half-dwarves would be the result of a union between a surface dwarf and a human. In Orzammar a half-dwarf would indeed stand out in a crowd (literally). I imagine that it would be sufficient cause for the half-dwarf, or even their entire family, to go to the surface rather than suffer the stigma.

Dwarves mating with elves, meanwhile, result in dwarves -- just the same as with humans. That's kind of an odd picture, especially if the mother is elven, but I imagine such a union takes place even less than it does with humans.