119 réponses à ce sujet

[kasanza]

Sloth Of Doom wrote...

ushae wrote...

Agreed I like the concept of a certain races having dominant or recessive phenotypes when passing on their genes, makes more sense. Rather than a perfect in the middle hybrid.
Does the same principle apply to dwarves and humans when it comes to dominance, or is a 50:50 thing ?

I haven't seen anything in game or the books that mention a dwarven/human cross.  It is quite possible that the produce no children at all.   Just because you can have sex with it doesn't mean it can have your baby, thank the Maker.

My Dwarven Warrior's end-game says otherwise. But I suppose the endings aren't actual cannon, but lend more to self-glorification. But at the same time, Bioware would've forced "another" solution to that problem if it wouldn't yield a "result." So, it's safe to say humans and dwarves in-game can breed.

Modifié par kasanza, 09 janvier 2010 - 06:18 .

[CptPatch]

David Gaider wrote...

Without getting into the "why" ....

Thank you for responding directly to the thread!  Your explanation is almost dead on to what I had thought was your reasoning for glossing over the subject so lightly.  I would like to tender some _perhaps_ viable views of the sociodynamics involved, if you do not object too strenuously.

GIVEN that cross-race matings _do_ occasionally produce offspring:

1) A predominance of infertile sports ("mules") is entirely reasonable.  Nonetheless, the "mules" themselves would still be in evidence here and there.  Off-color jokes or "shunning" behavior in crowds of commoners is where I would expect to see such evidence.  (The shunning would be much like how "normals" Dwarves treat casteless Dwarves.)

2) Given how vehemently Dwarves react to pureblood casteless offspring from Dwarves with castes, abandonment in the Deep Roads may very well be the most likely end of 95+% of all such half-breeds.  There would, however, undoubtedly be some that survive.  (Sandal, for instance, may very well be one such case.)  There would in all likelihood be a significant number of cases where the non-Dwarf  parents take their half-breed children back to their own societies.

3) Elves were for quite a time, totally enslaved by the Humans.  With slavery comes would come the inevitable interactions between masters and slaves.  ("It ain't rape if it's with your own property.  Bestiality maybe, but definitely not rape!")  Socially within Human society it would be frowned upon, but "Boys will be boys" say the slaveowning parents of particularly active sons.  "As long as it doesn't damage the livestock."  Even now when Elves are merely second-class citizens, Humans gangraping Elven females is viewed as an entertainment .  Depraved perhaps, but fairly common.  (Once again, in the crude vernacular, "Bestiality maybe, but certainly not rape!")  So I think there may be considerably more Elf/Human offspring than you had been envisaging.  How the Elves treat such byproducts of rape -- and even perhaps some sincere instances of "love children" needs to be thought through.  I can NOT see the Elves being anywhere near as severe as the Dwarves would be.

4)  I would really, really like to encounter just one case of someone like Sgt Carrot from Disc World.  That is, a Human raised by Dwarves as if he was himself a Dwarf -- 6' tall but just "Sort of tall for my age is all."  And had Elves been more diminuative, along the lines of "Santa's little helpers", then Will Farrell from the movie "Elf" would make for some entertaining comic relief. 

[CptPatch]

David Gaider wrote...

Nuclear_Pony wrote...
Can you imagine how a dwarf with part something else would be treated in Dwarven society ? I shudder to think of it. However a tree hugging dwarf would be funny (mind you, I love elves).

One thing to consider is that humans and elves don't often go to Orzammar. The dwarven city is very restrictive on who it allows to enter. So finding a half-dwarf in Orzammar would be exceptional almost beyond belief -- and when I said that a half-dwarf is less noticeable, that's only on the surface. Mainly half-dwarves would be the result of a union between a surface dwarf and a human. In Orzammar a half-dwarf would indeed stand out in a crowd (literally). I imagine that it would be sufficient cause for the half-dwarf, or even their entire family, to go to the surface rather than suffer the stigma.

Dwarves mating with elves, meanwhile, result in dwarves -- just the same as with humans. That's kind of an odd picture, especially if the mother is elven, but I imagine such a union takes place even less than it does with humans.

NOT to be argumentative, but rather just to point out something you may have overlooked:  There IS a fairly substantial population of "surface dwarves".  Even in this game they are viewed as being so ubiquitous that the stereotype of the Dwarven merchant is, in fact a stereotype.

Been traveling, always traveling all these years with Ma and Da.  What's a lonely Dwarven boy or girl supposed to do for, you know, release?

[Valcutio]

David Gaider wrote...

Nuclear_Pony wrote...
Can you imagine how a dwarf with part something else would be treated in Dwarven society ? I shudder to think of it. However a tree hugging dwarf would be funny (mind you, I love elves).

One thing to consider is that humans and elves don't often go to Orzammar. The dwarven city is very restrictive on who it allows to enter. So finding a half-dwarf in Orzammar would be exceptional almost beyond belief -- and when I said that a half-dwarf is less noticeable, that's only on the surface. Mainly half-dwarves would be the result of a union between a surface dwarf and a human. In Orzammar a half-dwarf would indeed stand out in a crowd (literally). I imagine that it would be sufficient cause for the half-dwarf, or even their entire family, to go to the surface rather than suffer the stigma.

Dwarves mating with elves, meanwhile, result in dwarves -- just the same as with humans. That's kind of an odd picture, especially if the mother is elven, but I imagine such a union takes place even less than it does with humans.

What happens if a dwarf and a qunari mate? Oh! What about a dwarf and a unicorn!? OMG. I want to play a Unidwarf! 

[addiction21]

CptPatch wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Nuclear_Pony wrote...
Can you imagine how a dwarf with part something else would be treated in Dwarven society ? I shudder to think of it. However a tree hugging dwarf would be funny (mind you, I love elves).

One thing to consider is that humans and elves don't often go to Orzammar. The dwarven city is very restrictive on who it allows to enter. So finding a half-dwarf in Orzammar would be exceptional almost beyond belief -- and when I said that a half-dwarf is less noticeable, that's only on the surface. Mainly half-dwarves would be the result of a union between a surface dwarf and a human. In Orzammar a half-dwarf would indeed stand out in a crowd (literally). I imagine that it would be sufficient cause for the half-dwarf, or even their entire family, to go to the surface rather than suffer the stigma.

Dwarves mating with elves, meanwhile, result in dwarves -- just the same as with humans. That's kind of an odd picture, especially if the mother is elven, but I imagine such a union takes place even less than it does with humans.

NOT to be argumentative, but rather just to point out something you may have overlooked:  There IS a fairly substantial population of "surface dwarves".  Even in this game they are viewed as being so ubiquitous that the stereotype of the Dwarven merchant is, in fact a stereotype.

Been traveling, always traveling all these years with Ma and Da.  What's a lonely Dwarven boy or girl supposed to do for, you know, release?

Well what did you do for "release" when alone? I know what I did and I am glad rosey palms can not sue for child support.
So what about half-qunaris? I dunno if it is possible because I suspect they propagate thru some type of cloning. Anyone remember stens buddies? They like exactly the same. Maybe it was just a plot device of him talking to himself.
I do apologize I have yet to get any coffee in me and am rambling

[David Gaider]

CptPatch wrote...
NOT to be argumentative, but rather just to point out something you may have overlooked:  There IS a fairly substantial population of "surface dwarves".  Even in this game they are viewed as being so ubiquitous that the stereotype of the Dwarven merchant is, in fact a stereotype.

Been traveling, always traveling all these years with Ma and Da.  What's a lonely Dwarven boy or girl supposed to do for, you know, release?

Err... I *did* mention that a mating between a surface dwarf and a human was the more likely scenario, did I not? The fact that dwarves on the surface are more common means that there's a better chance of them finding each other rather than needing to resort to a human or an elf -- something that is only rarely going to result in a child even when it happens.

As for your previous post, thank you. Those are good suggestions, many of which we've already considered.

[CptPatch]

Curious:  Are the Elvish pointy ears a Recessive that only occurs as a result of a Elf/Elf pairing?  Could the extremely rare pointy-eared elf/human or elf/dwarf _ever_ crop up?  I ask this because the pointy ears would be a definite giveaway for passersby to react to.  Whereas a dwarf/elf or dwarf/human _could_ fairly easily be construed simply as a short elf or short human.

Looking forward to reading excerpts from the underground best-seller, Passing Sociology 101

[Tekkaman Saber]

4)  I would really, really like to encounter just one case of someone like Sgt Carrot from Disc World.  That is, a Human raised by Dwarves as if he was himself a Dwarf -- 6' tall but just "Sort of tall for my age is all."  And had Elves been more diminuative, along the lines of "Santa's little helpers", then Will Farrell from the movie "Elf" would make for some entertaining comic relief. 

Oh but if that occured you would just have to have a properly done lawful good commander based on Vimes.
The problem is Corporal carrot or a character based on him I imagien would be quite difficult to pull off, after all I would imagine that it would be quite impossible to have an actor portray a person who puts ona  lawful stupid front (purposly or otherwise)

[DwemerWARRIOR]

I think you could use magic... yea you definetly could.... you know with sufficient skill in blood magic (and alot of blood + multiple years of control) you could control the genetics of an embryos cells.... I MEAN WHY NOT

[Wolf Northwind]

CptPatch wrote...

Sloth Of Doom wrote...

According to in-game lore the elven phenotype does not breed true when crossed with that of other races. Therefore the offspring of a human and an elf has a purely human genetic structure.

The only reason you expect half-races is the common D&D-centric thinking that so many forum goers seem to have.

Not really.  I think it probable because of how Genetics works.  When you mix two distinct, but similar species, there is always some characteristics that carry over from both parents.

The game does, in fact, start to delve into the results of mixing species.  You see it with.... Rats; that's SPOILER info.

Anyway, there _are_ some mixed species results that are distinctly different from either parent.

Um... most species simply can't interbreed no matter how similar they appear.  There are a handful of exceptions (not even considering dogs, which are just special) but as a rule, species cannot interbreed.

[fanman72]

Errr.....let's just pretend elvish genes are recessive, k????

[a_morgan]

So is their any point at which elven blood will begin to have a dominate effect? Like if an elf and an eleven blood were to get it on would they produce a child with eleven traits? It's more interesting to me because elves and humans have more direct contact with one another so I would imagine that "stuff" happens between them more often shall we say.

[RangerSG]

a_morgan wrote...

So is their any point at which elven blood will begin to have a dominate effect? Like if an elf and an eleven blood were to get it on would they produce a child with eleven traits? It's more interesting to me because elves and humans have more direct contact with one another so I would imagine that "stuff" happens between them more often shall we say.

Well, seeing what you can learn if you talk to the Dalish in-game about the elven history. And seeing what a very common theory on the parentage of a certain DAO character is, I'd say it's clear that elven genes are 100% recessive.

[Eudaemonium]

David Gaider wrote...

You can't play one of the "elf-blooded" (this is what humans with mixed parentage are generally referred to, though I imagine "half-elf" could also be used in a slanderous fashion), and trying to explain the presence of a small number of humans in the alienage (as a for-instance) would have diluted the story we were already going for.

This might've been mentioned, but Slim Couldry (who gives you the Crime Wave quest line) mentions that he was brought up in the Alienage. It surprised me at the time. Is Slim elf-blooded, or is he just one of a small number of humans who happens/happened to live there?

[David Gaider]

Eudaemonium wrote...
This might've been mentioned, but Slim Couldry (who gives you the Crime Wave quest line) mentions that he was brought up in the Alienage. It surprised me at the time. Is Slim elf-blooded, or is he just one of a small number of humans who happens/happened to live there?

The only humans that would live in the Alienage are elf-blooded humans -- so it seems likely he is, even if he didn't make a point of saying so.

[Brass_Buckles]

RangerSG wrote...

a_morgan wrote...

So is their any point at which elven blood will begin to have a dominate effect? Like if an elf and an eleven blood were to get it on would they produce a child with eleven traits? It's more interesting to me because elves and humans have more direct contact with one another so I would imagine that "stuff" happens between them more often shall we say.

Well, seeing what you can learn if you talk to the Dalish in-game about the elven history. And seeing what a very common theory on the parentage of a certain DAO character is, I'd say it's clear that elven genes are 100% recessive.

The thing is, if elven genetics are recessive, and if the offspring of a human/elf parent is not infertile, then a human/elf-blooded pairing should in fact result in a child with reasonably high chances of having the physical traits of an elf (because it's at least 3/4 elf).  I know it's a fantasy setting, but DNA doesn't just disappear.

Do the descendants of elf-blooded humans who have repeatedly bred back to elves eventually become indistinguishable from normal elves?  And if so, could this, rather than any other reason, explain why elves no longer live such long lives?  Could it be that they're all a little bit human?

[Wishpig]

I can have sex with a bunny, doesn't mean I'll make little bunny me's. Although as disgusting as that is, I would love to see little bunny people!

[David Gaider]

Brass_Buckles wrote...
Do the descendants of elf-blooded humans who have repeatedly bred back to elves eventually become indistinguishable from normal elves?  And if so, could this, rather than any other reason, explain why elves no longer live such long lives?  Could it be that they're all a little bit human?

The child of elf-blooded humans and an elf is another elf-blooded human. Whether or not such a line would eventually become more "elven" is unknown -- the elf-blooded don't tend to distinguish themselves as a group for cultural reasons, and more often then not find themselves living amongst humans rather than elves. Saying that elves have recessive genes obviously isn't the answer -- I said a long time ago on the forums that elven genetics were "adaptive", but that's just an attempt to explain the phenomenon since people were insisting on talking about genetics. The elves don't know why it happens, and there's no understanding of genetics in the world to explain it... if that would even be the reason. More likely it has a supernatural origin relating to the nature of the elves themselves, though what that might be and whether or not the elves were truly once the immortals they claim simply isn't known.

Modifié par David Gaider, 30 janvier 2010 - 09:46 .

[SMD010]

@ David Gaider

Cant you give the forum a own place with all the info you give us? Makes it a lot easer to read all in to this info you give us I love reading about the history of Ferelden and the world around it

Modifié par SMD010, 30 janvier 2010 - 10:04 .

[Brass_Buckles]

David Gaider wrote...

Brass_Buckles wrote...
Do the descendants of elf-blooded humans who have repeatedly bred back to elves eventually become indistinguishable from normal elves?  And if so, could this, rather than any other reason, explain why elves no longer live such long lives?  Could it be that they're all a little bit human?

The child of elf-blooded humans and an elf is another elf-blooded human. Whether or not such a line would eventually become more "elven" is unknown -- the elf-blooded don't tend to distinguish themselves as a group for cultural reasons, and more often then not find themselves living amongst humans rather than elves. Saying that elves have recessive genes obviously isn't the answer -- I said a long time ago on the forums that elven genetics were "adaptive", but that's just an attempt to explain the phenomenon since people were insisting on talking about genetics. The elves don't know why it happens, and there's no understanding of genetics in the world to explain it... if that would even be the reason. More likely it has a supernatural origin relating to the nature of the elves themselves, though what that might be and whether or not the elves were truly once the immortals they claim simply isn't known.

Hmm, I guess we'll find out more about this eventually, then?

I know it probably doesn't mean much, but thank you for taking the time to answer--especially since it's the weekend and goodness knows if you're even on the clock!

[Ellestor]

Valcutio wrote...

Ryldaun wrote...

i prefer elves to be more like above human beeings unearthly beautiful,graceful either living in high citys of marble and gold or in the forest as part of it,mystical beeings but still something noble.

Ya, I'm glad they avoided this tired ass cliche.

This is one of those sentiments I see very commonly yet can't understand. How can something be cliché when it is so very, very rare?

It reminds me of those who, with the announcement of Dragon Age as a single-player game, cried out, 'Finally! A single-player RPG!' as if multiplayer RPGs had become more, rather than less common—as if every hit RPG in the last decade hadn't been single-player. Very strange indeed.

Don't get me wrong: as an insufferable elf fanboy, I'm very happy with how elves are handled in this setting. I'm simply perplexed as to how the archetype of 'eerie elven beauty' that has been beaten down by a weird macho indignation for the last decade can be cliché. The only break it has caught since the 1980s would seem to be the New Line Lord of the Rings films. It seems that nearly everything else has insisted on pointy-eared Fabios.

But this is veering far from human-elven breeding, I'm sorry. 

[Mlai00]

@ Gaider:

Can you, or someone, link me to this original discussion on elven genetics that you keep mentioning? Thanks.



@ High Beautiful Elves vs Little DAO Elves:

What's so hard to understand? Haven't you ever read Elfquest? Same kind of thing. Elven "evolution" is much faster than that of humans, perhaps because innate magic is involved.



@ Sandal being a human/elf x dwarf child:

LMAO I was going to mention this, but someone beat me to it.

[Wishpig]

Mlai00 wrote...

@ Gaider:
Can you, or someone, link me to this original discussion on elven genetics that you keep mentioning? Thanks.

You don't know who he is do you... he's the guy that wrote and pretty much created Dragon Age.

[elearon1]

Apes and humans are mighty similar genetically, too, but we can't interbreed. Not every similar species is going to bear viable offspring. I am sick of half-races in so much fantasy - it has become trite.



Personally, I'd love to see a game made based around the Talislanta rpg setting - no elves, dwarves, or any of the common fantasy races there - we'd get something much more original.

[darkmax1974]

In reality, and since this RPG is made with adults and young adults in mind, even if the mating pair (of different races) has 99.99% DNA similarity, one set is almost always going to reject the other.