119 réponses à ce sujet

[nubbers666]

wounder wut a qunari/dawrf baby would look like that would be kinda funny

[TripLight]

So would it be safe to say that interbreeding brought the quickening to elven blood? I've read the codex and wiki but never really understood how that happened. I assumed half-breeds bred back into the elvish line and brought the quickening, so to speak, in that way. But the information on elven-blooded seems to refute that line of thought.



Again I never understood that aspect, if someone could enlighten me, please do so.

[Clumber]

@ TripLight



From my understanding, it wouldn't be the interbreeding that brought the quickening to the elves, just contact with humans. Since elf+human=human, there could only be pure-blooded elves. Unless just sexing a human brought about the quickening...but that would mean basically ALL the elves would have to do so, which seems very unlikely.



So it's just some unexplained phenomenon I suppose. I doubt we'll ever learn the real reason behind it all.

[TripLight]

Clumber wrote...

@ TripLight

From my understanding, it wouldn't be the interbreeding that brought the quickening to the elves, just contact with humans. Since elf+human=human, there could only be pure-blooded elves. Unless just sexing a human brought about the quickening...but that would mean basically ALL the elves would have to do so, which seems very unlikely.

So it's just some unexplained phenomenon I suppose. I doubt we'll ever learn the real reason behind it all.

I was pondering earliar if it had something to do with them trading practices of magic. While not exactly contact per se, but elves do possess the most ability for magic out of all the races, short of the Old Gods thus far. And when Humans arrived on Thedas, both possibly traded techniques and such, in their earliar more peaceful meetings.

It seems to me that the old elven magic was much more personally based then like what we get in the game.

LOL sorry talking out of my head here.

[Ellestor]

The Quickening is basically smallpox gone fantasy, really.

[Wournos]

katie916 wrote...

wounder wut a qunari/dawrf baby would look like that would be kinda funny

I have a vague memory that qunari sex is extremely violent. I don't remember where I read it but it included strapping the poor woman and let her bite on to something. But then again if it's a dwarven male and a qunari woman it might be less risky.

[Hugmejohnny]

Wournos wrote...

katie916 wrote...

wounder wut a qunari/dawrf baby would look like that would be kinda funny

I have a vague memory that qunari sex is extremely violent. I don't remember where I read it but it included strapping the poor woman and let her bite on to something. But then again if it's a dwarven male and a qunari woman it might be less risky.

I thought Sten was kidding Glad he wasn't a romance option.

[Wournos]

Hugmejohnny wrote...

Wournos wrote...

katie916 wrote...

wounder wut a qunari/dawrf baby would look like that would be kinda funny

I have a vague memory that qunari sex is extremely violent. I don't remember where I read it but it included strapping the poor woman and let her bite on to something. But then again if it's a dwarven male and a qunari woman it might be less risky.

I thought Sten was kidding Glad he wasn't a romance option.

Maybe he was. I have no idea. I can't get the annoying sod to speak to me. <_<

[Darkemorrow]

Hmmm. Does this mean that Luthias the Dwarfson was the product of a human-dwarven pairing as his name would seem to suggest? As I recall, the Ash Warrior at Ostagar describes Luthias as being exceptionally short, strong, and stocky, but otherwise human. I assumed that "Dwarfson" was just a nickname commenting on his stature and not a literal description of his parentage but maybe he really was the son of a dwarf?

EDIT: Also he himself was apparently into dwarf chicks. May I be the first to coin the term "mountain fever?"

Ellestor wrote...

The Quickening is basically smallpox gone fantasy, really.

This was sort of my interpretation as well. It would be interesting to know more about the mechanics of it though. It seems like some sort of spiritual decay.

Modifié par Darkemorrow, 31 janvier 2010 - 09:58 .

[Brass_Buckles]

TripLight wrote...

So would it be safe to say that interbreeding brought the quickening to elven blood? I've read the codex and wiki but never really understood how that happened. I assumed half-breeds bred back into the elvish line and brought the quickening, so to speak, in that way. But the information on elven-blooded seems to refute that line of thought.

Again I never understood that aspect, if someone could enlighten me, please do so.

I think this tells us that you didn't read the entire thread, which is thus far only four pages long.  David Gaider answered me on a very similar question to this on page 3 of the thread.

Since you didn't read the previous page, I'll quote his response to me for you:

David Gaider wrote...

Brass_Buckles wrote...
Do
the descendants of elf-blooded humans who have repeatedly bred back to
elves eventually become indistinguishable from normal elves?  And if
so, could this, rather than any other reason, explain why elves no
longer live such long lives?  Could it be that they're all a little bit
human?

The child of elf-blooded humans and an elf is
another elf-blooded human. Whether or not such a line would eventually
become more "elven" is unknown -- the elf-blooded don't tend to
distinguish themselves as a group for cultural reasons, and more often
then not find themselves living amongst humans rather than elves.
Saying that elves have recessive genes obviously isn't the answer -- I
said a long time ago on the forums that elven genetics were "adaptive",
but that's just an attempt to explain the phenomenon since people were
insisting on talking about genetics. The elves don't know why it
happens, and there's no understanding of genetics in the world to
explain it... if that would even be the reason. More likely it has a
supernatural origin relating to the nature of the elves themselves,
though what that might be and whether or not the elves were truly once
the immortals they claim simply isn't known.

While I'm grateful that he answered (and on a Saturday no less!), I'm hoping we eventually get a more fleshed-out answer in the games or books than "it's because of magic."  I'm not opposed to magic being involved in the answer; I'd just like to know why/how it has this influence, since it clearly defies what we all know about genetics (and therefore pretty much begs for some kind of explanation sooner or later).  We probably will get some explanation eventually though, because thus far I haven't seen much "just because" in the world-building of Ferelden.

darkmax1974 wrote...

In reality, and since this RPG is
made with adults and young adults in mind, even if the mating pair (of
different races) has 99.99% DNA similarity, one set is almost always
going to reject the other.

Actually, this is not really true.  I'm no expert, admittedly, but I was always fascinated by genetics and I paid attention in class.  Individual humans may have DNA that is 99.99% similar, but you still get a blend of genetics between the parents.  In most hybrids, no matter how similar the parents are, you get something in-between as well.  For instance, a mule is horse-sized but may have the markings (and always the ears) of a donkey.  A liger is much larger than either parent due to lion genetics apparently tending toward gigantism if not repressed by the genetics of a female lion, but it still appears to be a cross between a lion and a tiger.  The only instance in the real world in which genetic differences fail to appear is when one set of genetics is recessive or when multiple gene pairs are involved in the expression of a particular trait (in which case it's also possible to get something that does not look like either of the parents).  If you want more similar creatures, then how about different breeds of domesticated animals?  They are the same species, yes, but the difference in genetics is probably about the same as you suggested.  They still look like a blend of the two parent breeds, unless, again, there are recessive or multi-gene-pair traits involved.

When you apply that notion to elves and humans or elves and dwarves, it makes even less sense if you consider them to be separate species.  How likely is it that elves are 99.99% similar to both humans and dwarves?  No, more likely either they are all really races (as opposed to separate species), or as David Gaider said, something else (magical or supernatural in nature) happens when elves breed outside of their own kind.  Who knows?  Maybe elves weren't originally such mundane/fleshly creatures as they are now, and the arcane warrior's ability to exist in the mortal world and the Fade at the same time wasn't arcane warrior exclusive.

[Kwanzaabot]

You can always try your hand at making an elven or dwarven face that looks human (or vice versa), and just say they're half-breeds.



'cause that'd probably be how it works. There's no 50/50 hybrids, as you'll get a human child if an elf and human breed, but their kid could always have SOME elven traits.

[grieferbastard]

All of this is why we need a tabletop RPG for Dragon Age. An official one. I've heard nice things about the Green Ronin version but I confess there is a long list of great stories and potential RPG worlds done over like a sweet little elven girl by some calous Arls son. Like most game worlds they spawn from the creative minds of one or possibly a couple of individuals who've likely fleshed out vastly more detail than ever gets written down. A story reflects the teller in a lot of ways and it's the story in DA:O that I've come to enjoy. Can you truly expect someone else to breathe the same life into it?

[Bryy_Miller]

David Gaider wrote...

Without getting into the "why" behind the elves-and-humans-produce-humans thing (which I've talked about before), I will talk about why we didn't deal with it in the game. Primarily it's because we didn't have room. There's a lot of things that exist in the Thedas world that we weren't able to get into in Origins -- part of it is due to limited resources, but part of it is also because to properly address it we'd need to do it justice. We were already introducing the races and their situations, and adding on the complexity of explaining something that does need explanation would... get us what, exactly? You can't play one of the "elf-blooded" (this is what humans with mixed parentage are generally referred to, though I imagine "half-elf" could also be used in a slanderous fashion), and trying to explain the presence of a small number of humans in the alienage (as a for-instance) would have diluted the story we were already going for. Trying to fit everything that exists into the world in one story, after all, isn't really feasible.

I'd like to get into it. I think it's a possibility that has the potential for good drama, and even allowing the player to be elf-blooded might be cool in the future. But like I said, I'd want to do it justice. If your view on it is that you wanted half-elves to be there, and their omission is a fault -- then so be it. I can't really argue with that except to say that we don't think they're required. As some people have mentioned, it's not a widespread thing. Many elves resist having human children for cultural reasons, and many elf-blooded children will live amongst humans as full humans simply because they can get away with it and hiding their heritage means not having to suffer for it -- from humans as well as elves. Some few might be public about their identity, and unwilling to leave their parents behind, but like I said that belongs in another story.

Incidentally, for half-dwarves the situation is a bit different. Dwarves aren't a very fertile race to begin with, and far less so when it comes to mating with humans and elves. In fact, it would be considered rare... rare enough that it's considered more of an oddity than a group of its own. The result is also less stigmatized... primarily because it's also less noticeable. You end up with what would appear to be a tall dwarf or a short human. That calls for a new model -- which we weren't going to get, even if we wanted to address such a rare case. Again, it's certainly something we could do in the future, though such a character would still be considered unusual.

I imagine for those who really like their half-elves that's not a very satisfactory answer, but I hope it offers some light on the why's and wherefore's.

I really love how it seems like you guys have the entire DA Universe fleshed out. It's awesome and only inspires/encourages me to continue buying DA products.

Modifié par Bryy_Miller, 01 février 2010 - 04:39 .

[TripLight]

@ Brass Buckles



Whoops, look likes I missed your post. My bad about the repeated question.

[Lakmoots]

grieferbastard wrote...

All of this is why we need a tabletop RPG for Dragon Age. An official one. I've heard nice things about the Green Ronin version but I confess there is a long list of great stories and potential RPG worlds done over like a sweet little elven girl by some calous Arls son. Like most game worlds they spawn from the creative minds of one or possibly a couple of individuals who've likely fleshed out vastly more detail than ever gets written down. A story reflects the teller in a lot of ways and it's the story in DA:O that I've come to enjoy. Can you truly expect someone else to breathe the same life into it?

I agree... completely... and utterly.

Almost a sig-worthy qoute, in fact.

Cannot even name the list it is so long... WHFRPG, Middle Earth, Every misbegotten Elric RPG...

That being said, Green Ronin are very good in terms of quality - but as you say, it depends on the creative team.

It always feels like translation. *sigh*

[Zugin]

Very interesting I did not know that Dwarfs could potentially interbreed with humans the *spoiler* ending now makes sense I guess.



Here is a question. So Dwarf/something child would be connected to the fade or not? What about resistance to Lirium?



Thats actually a good game question in terms of how *spoiler* ends up the fade during the story.. (but still cant use lirium veins..)

[Mossa_missa]

Why theres no half races? Same reson why there arent any half chimpanse in our world. Only cos you can have sex with something dosent meen you can have children with it.

[Brass_Buckles]

Mossa_missa wrote...

Why theres no half races? Same reson why there arent any half chimpanse in our world. Only cos you can have sex with something dosent meen you can have children with it.

Except that humans, elves, and dwarves can all reproduce with one another.  Also, most similar creatures can produce hybrids when interbred.  Human beings are an unusual exception to that--and we may not really be an exception.  The thing is, how many people are gonna volunteer to test it out?  Nobody sane (though during WWII Hitler was making an attempt at human-ape hybrids for supersoldiers and he DID get at least one volunteer).  Testing it wouldn't be ethical, either, even should you get a volunteer to make the attempt.  That said, the similarities between humans, elves, and dwarves in DAO's world are sufficient that they could simply be races of one overarching species--and if not, then they're still apparently similar enough to interbreed without problems.  However, half-elf children become full-blooded whatever-else-bred-with-the-elf.

Now, I'd just be weirded out if there started being things like half-dragons or centaurs.

[Feraele]

CptPatch wrote...

We know from the Romance cutscenes that the various that the three main races can, indeed, have sex with one another.  In fact "men" and "women" can apply to _any_ race, rather than putting an emphasis on "Elvish men" or "Dwarven women".  It seems obvious that the genetic stock is at least close enough to yield viable offspring between mixed matches.  They're at least as close to one another as lions and tigers (= liger), or horses and donkeys (= mules).

So, where are the half-breeds?  (No derogatory intent.)

I can understand that adding half-breeds to the available character selection would have added a LOT more programming to the initial product, so understandably they were left out.  That's cool; I can cope with that.  But why aren't there any half-breeds to be encountered in Ferelden?  If the party members are freely jumping into each others' beds regardless of disparate racial backgrounds, then it should be happening pretty much everywhere.

If we occasionally encountered half-breeds in this game, it might be hoped that in future sequels the half-breed category would open up to character creation.  But now, having traversed the length and breadth of Ferelden, if we _do_ encounter a half-breed anything in DLC content or a sequel, it will come across as a shocking new development.

I think in the case of the dwarves ..wouldn't there be some objections to that..what about caste,  I can see them implementing new rules for this..rejecting it.

[Feraele]

CptPatch wrote...

Sloth Of Doom wrote...

According to in-game lore the elven phenotype does not breed true when crossed with that of other races. Therefore the offspring of a human and an elf has a purely human genetic structure.

The only reason you expect half-races is the common D&D-centric thinking that so many forum goers seem to have.

Not really.  I think it probable because of how Genetics works.  When you mix two distinct, but similar species, there is always some characteristics that carry over from both parents.

The game does, in fact, start to delve into the results of mixing species.  You see it with.... Rats; that's SPOILER info.

Anyway, there _are_ some mixed species results that are distinctly different from either parent.

Yes it depends on which genes are dominant and which are recessive.   So its possible..but probably not in DA:O

[Feraele]

Sloth Of Doom wrote...

ushae wrote...

Agreed I like the concept of a certain races having dominant or recessive phenotypes when passing on their genes, makes more sense. Rather than a perfect in the middle hybrid.
Does the same principle apply to dwarves and humans when it comes to dominance, or is a 50:50 thing ?

I haven't seen anything in game or the books that mention a dwarven/human cross.  It is quite possible that the produce no children at all.   Just because you can have sex with it doesn't mean it can have your baby, thank the Maker.

Also referring to a poster above...the example of a horse and a donkey breed is a mule.   A mule cannot reproduce it..is asexual.  No gender.   Which I assume might happen if a human and chimpanzee..bred.  

There's just some things that Mother Nature doesn't agree with.

[Brass_Buckles]

Feraele wrote...

Sloth Of Doom wrote...

ushae wrote...

Agreed I like the concept of a certain races having dominant or recessive phenotypes when passing on their genes, makes more sense. Rather than a perfect in the middle hybrid.
Does the same principle apply to dwarves and humans when it comes to dominance, or is a 50:50 thing ?

I haven't seen anything in game or the books that mention a dwarven/human cross.  It is quite possible that the produce no children at all.   Just because you can have sex with it doesn't mean it can have your baby, thank the Maker.

Also referring to a poster above...the example of a horse and a donkey breed is a mule.   A mule cannot reproduce it..is asexual.  No gender.   Which I assume might happen if a human and chimpanzee..bred.  

There's just some things that Mother Nature doesn't agree with.

Mules do have gender and are therefore not asexual, even when they are sterile.  Female mules are sometimes (albeit rarely) fertile and can be bred back to either a horse or a donkey--that resultant offspring will be fertile regardless of its gender.  Hybrid feline females are, as I already pointed out, also always fertile--cats are in fact remarkably hybridizeable, since you can breed just about any species of cat to just about any other species that's about the same size and still get viable offspring.   (Male feline hybrids are always sterile, but breeding a female hybrid feline back to other male felines can result in always-fertile offspring of both genders, since females are always fertile).  Wolf/dog hybrids are always fertile.  I think zebroids (zebra/horse hybrids) are always fertile even though a zebra is not closely related to a horse, which is a problem out in Africa, where zebras interbreeding with feral horses has further endangered several rare species of zebra.  As far as I know, too, many dolphin hybrids are fertile (a Risso's can breed with a bottlenose and I believe the resultant offspring can still reproduce when mature).  It really depends on the specific hybrid and the genetics of the parent species (some are possible but sterile, some are possible and fertile, and some are just plain impossible, such as a fox/dog hybrid--foxes of all species and genuses (geni?) have incompatible genetics with pretty much every other genus of canid).  Mother nature is rather more permissive than you've likely been taught--I was very surprised when I learned that all hybrids aren't necessarily sterile because it went against what I had been taught in school.  Often such hybrids even occur and later reproduce without human intervention!

Thus far there's no evidence to think that a human/ape hybrid is even possible, as I pointed out, but if it could happen that does not mean that the resultant offspring would necessarily be sterile!  I do not think that a human/ape hybrid is possible, personally--and I hope no one ever seriously tries again since Hitler's attempts, due to ethical reasons.  The genetics aren't very different at all between humans and chimps or bonobos, compared to some hybrids out in nature that are possible, but if it were possible, let's face it:  it probably would've happened by now, as unpleasant a thought as that is.  But in terms of DAO, I'd assume that elves and dwarves are more similar to humans, and each other, than chimps are to humans in the real world.  Like I said before, I would consider the possibility that they are members of one overarching species or at least genus.

[Feraele]

Mules do have gender and are therefore not asexual, even when they are sterile. Female mules are sometimes (albeit rarely) fertile and can be bred back to either a horse or a donkey--that resultant offspring will be fertile regardless of its gender. Hybrid feline females are, as I already pointed out, also always fertile--cats are in fact remarkably hybridizeable, since you can breed just about any species of cat to just about any other species that's about the same size and still get viable offspring. (Male feline hybrids are always sterile, but breeding a female hybrid feline back to other male felines can result in always-fertile offspring of both genders, since females are always fertile). Wolf/dog hybrids are always fertile. I think zebroids (zebra/horse hybrids) are always fertile even though a zebra is not closely related to a horse, which is a problem out in Africa, where zebras interbreeding with feral horses has further endangered several rare species of zebra. As far as I know, too, many dolphin hybrids are fertile (a Risso's can breed with a bottlenose and I believe the resultant offspring can still reproduce when mature). It really depends on the specific hybrid and the genetics of the parent species (some are possible but sterile, some are possible and fertile, and some are just plain impossible, such as a fox/dog hybrid--foxes of all species and genuses (geni?) have incompatible genetics with pretty much every other genus of canid). Mother nature is rather more permissive than you've likely been taught--I was very surprised when I learned that all hybrids aren't necessarily sterile because it went against what I had been taught in school. Often such hybrids even occur and later reproduce without human intervention!



Thus far there's no evidence to think that a human/ape hybrid is even possible, as I pointed out, but if it could happen that does not mean that the resultant offspring would necessarily be sterile! I do not think that a human/ape hybrid is possible, personally--and I hope no one ever seriously tries again since Hitler's attempts, due to ethical reasons. The genetics aren't very different at all between humans and chimps or bonobos, compared to some hybrids out in nature that are possible, but if it were possible, let's face it: it probably would've happened by now, as unpleasant a thought as that is. But in terms of DAO, I'd assume that elves and dwarves are more similar to humans, and each other, than chimps are to humans in the real world. Like I said before, I would consider the possibility that they are members of one overarching species or at least genus.



- End quote



Ahh see I was going on what I was taught in school (many years ago lol)



Thank you for the enlightenment..very interesting.

[grieferbastard]

Lakmoots wrote...

grieferbastard wrote...
stuff

I agree... completely... and utterly.

Almost a sig-worthy qoute, in fact.

Cannot even name the list it is so long... WHFRPG, Middle Earth, Every misbegotten Elric RPG...

That being said, Green Ronin are very good in terms of quality - but as you say, it depends on the creative team.

It always feels like translation. *sigh*

Thank you. It seems great, I got the PDFs to check over and it seems very true to form - in fact, that's all it is. No expansion in any direction, really. No fleshing out of Antiva or any neighbors. No details on how to play a Chasind for example. The stuff I really want, the fleshing out of the rest of Thedas in the same depth as Ferelden, isn't there. I'd even just like a detailed explanation of the locations on the released map. How about a basic one even.

There's a little about politics, how you become Teryn/Arl/Bann and what those mean. A couple of paragraphs. It just feels sparse though. It's also just level 1-5 stuff. Seriously, it's like the original D&D with spells going to level 3. The other releases are scheduled in six month increments but I'm starting to fear all they're going to do is repeat what's already in DA:O.

I want the rest of the game world. I want it in fleshed out detail, at least some detail. I'm starting to suspect that's not what we're going to see.

[Korvayer]

Mossa_missa wrote...

Why theres no half races? Same reson why there arent any half chimpanse in our world. Only cos you can have sex with something dosent meen you can have children with it.

Doesn't hurt to keep trying. Have faith.

Modifié par Korvayer, 05 février 2010 - 05:04 .