94 réponses à ce sujet

[Deerber]

Nemy Montoya wrote...

Deerber wrote...

Nemy Montoya wrote...

So the incorrect assumption was that cover gives a reduction in damage when actually being out of cover gives a penalty of taking extra damage.

No, that much was already known. The incorrect assumption was that DR is actually 75% of what you read in the in-game descriptions always. Cyonan has now discovered that it only works that way out of cover, and that when you're in cover you get the full 100% of the DR you read.

What I got from Cyonan's post was that DR does exactly what it says at all times but is a percentage of base damage rather than a percentage of damage taken.  So if an enemy does 100 damage to you in cover and then you switch on your 40% reduction it will do 60.  Out of cover the enemy will do 140 normally and 100 damage when you activate a 40% damage reduction.  In both causes the 40% damage reduction is 40% of 100 and not 40% of 140.

Yeah, that is correct. And it's the same thing I wrote (give ot take a few % on 75), just stated in a different way. It all depends on if you refer to the 100% of the damage (base) or to the 140% of it (inflated for out of cover bonus).

[jakenou]

Cyonan wrote...

On this note, I had the idea(by which I really mean that ValorOfArms suggested it) of putting this information up on a website that isn't google docs or the Mass Effect wiki(They don't really like it when I prove them wrong).

It'd be kind of like Nardia's class build tooler except my own url(I already pay for hosting so it's not like it's costing me money), and I could code my own tools such as an effective health calculator with this.

Is this a thing people would actually be interested in me setting up?

Oh heck yeah! Cionen pls (intentional mispelling)!!

[Deerber]

sobit wrote...

... looooong...

I understand that. I still think it was misleading though. Not wrong, but misleading 

If a guy asks "Is it A or B?", where B is the correct answer, answering "It's C, if we consider things this way" is misleading, even if with those parameter changes B and C are the same thing.

At least, that's how I see it :happy:

[sobit]

well yeah, looking at Cyonans equation, and assuming he got it somewhere out of the game files, it's probably better to say "being out of cover makes you take more damage". at least It looks like the Devs intended it that way. but that is f*cking stupid. being in cover makes you take less damage is so much more intuitive.

[Deerber]

sobit wrote...

well yeah, looking at Cyonans equation, and assuming he got it somewhere out of the game files, it's probably better to say "being out of cover makes you take more damage". at least It looks like the Devs intended it that way. but that is f*cking stupid. being in cover makes you take less damage is so much more intuitive.

Agreed. But hey, it's Bioware... Logic isn't always where it should be! 

[megabeast37215]

Thank you Cyonan. You're the single most productive member of the community. You've contributed more knowledge to the playerbase than the entire dev team since I've been on BSN.

Really appreciate your effort.

[Zero132132]

I don't get it. According to your formula, at 100% DR, you should get the total damage from an enemy for that difficulty, or 1.4 times that damage in cover.

Please clarify... right now, at 0 DR, your formula gives a lower final damage than 100% DR, and that seems absolutely insane.

Modifié par Zero132132, 26 janvier 2013 - 06:14 .

[Deerber]

Zero132132 wrote...

I don't get it. According to your formula, at 100% DR, you should get the total damage from an enemy for that difficulty, or 1.4 times that damage in cover.

Please clarify... right now, at 0 DR, your formula gives a lower final damage than 100% DR, and that seems absolutely insane.

That's the typo I was talking about.

Replace "(1-DR)" with "DR" and you're pretty much set.

[Zero132132]

Deerber wrote...

Zero132132 wrote...

I don't get it. According to your formula, at 100% DR, you should get the total damage from an enemy for that difficulty, or 1.4 times that damage in cover.

Please clarify... right now, at 0 DR, your formula gives a lower final damage than 100% DR, and that seems absolutely insane.

That's the typo I was talking about.

Replace "(1-DR)" with "DR" and you're pretty much set.

Don't we also need to replace the * with a /?

Basically, should it be:
((enemy_damage * difficulty_modifier) / cover_bonus) - (enemy_damage * difficulty_modifiers * DR) = final_damage
?

EDIT: Nevermind, got mixed up between in-cover being 1.4 and out of cover being 1, so yeah...

((enemy_damage * difficulty_modifier) * cover_bonus) - (enemy_damage * difficulty_modifiers * DR) = final_damage

Modifié par Zero132132, 26 janvier 2013 - 06:20 .

[me0120]

Zero132132 wrote...

Deerber wrote...

Zero132132 wrote...

I don't get it. According to your formula, at 100% DR, you should get the total damage from an enemy for that difficulty, or 1.4 times that damage in cover.

Please clarify... right now, at 0 DR, your formula gives a lower final damage than 100% DR, and that seems absolutely insane.

That's the typo I was talking about.

Replace "(1-DR)" with "DR" and you're pretty much set.

Don't we also need to replace the * with a /?

Basically, should it be:
((enemy_damage * difficulty_modifier) / cover_bonus) - (enemy_damage * difficulty_modifiers * DR) = final_damage
?

EDIT: Nevermind, got mixed up between in-cover being 1.4 and out of cover being 1, so yeah...

((enemy_damage * difficulty_modifier) * cover_bonus) - (enemy_damage * difficulty_modifiers * DR) = final_damage

Well, do you like fractions more?

EDIT: nicely timed my friend. 

Modifié par me0120, 26 janvier 2013 - 06:21 .

[sobit]

EDIT: Problem solved.

Modifié par sobit, 26 janvier 2013 - 06:24 .

[Megakoresh]

BlackDahlia424 wrote...

I still think this is incredibly lame. You should get the listed DR in or out of hard cover - period.

Because, yes.

I wonder if there is a way to enable console in ME3. That would really help with these kind of things. Assuming we can get it to display what we want, of course.

[N7Kopper]

Hah, interesting. I think everyone likes you by now, Cyonan.

So my little theory of "DR =/= defence" was wrong, and DR works off of base weapon damage - with enemies getting a damage buff of 40% when you're not ducking. I like this, personally, really in-depth. My only complaint is that enemy DR works off of the modifiers, creating a glaring discrepancy, but I guess when the vast majority of your DPS comes from modifiers, your opponents should be able to defend from them. (And enemy DR does nothing against projectiles, while we can tell Atlas rockets and Praetorian buttlaz0rs to f%$& off)

[Cyonan]

Finally awake again now.

I fixed the damage_damage typo. It says enemy_damage now.

Also fixed the typo in the formula so that DR isn't reversed in effectiveness when used.

[xBUMMx]

I think it's because Bioware expects most kits that get a DR to use cover for 99% of their combat time.

Just saying.

[Cyonan]

As a side note, something else I noticed in my testing:

Being in cover grants you additional damage reduction. When you lean out of cover to aim at the enemy you lose this damage reduction rapidly over the course of about 0.5-1 seconds.

Specifically for the Typhoon, I suspect that this is the damage reduction that BioWare was talking about when they said that the Typhoon retains it while leaning out of cover, not the "out of cover damage bonus" that gets referenced at 40% DR around here often(on a technical level, that's an enemy damage boost rather than personal damage reduction).

Tests show that no gun in the game retains this damage reduction while leaning out of cover, however. Not even the Typhoon.

[Jeremiah12LGeek]

Cyonan wrote...

Computron2000 wrote...

Look at how many times people point to narida's on this forum. I think many will find it useful. Won't be huge number of hits unless it gets spread to other sites like gamesfaq or such

I'm pretty sure the sheets have been linked on a few other forums/sites.

I'd probably also set it up in such a way that I could repurpose the site into something else if I really wanted to(meaning I wouldn't name it using anything about Mass Effect, but that's hardly a big deal).

How about Cyonan's Mechanics, or just Cyonan?


I haven't read pages 2 or 3 yet (sorry if asked and answered).

I'm having fun testing the limits of Volus DR. How would this affect them? My understanding is that a Volus can never be considered "in cover". Does that mean their cumulative DR is multiplied by 71 at all times?

[Blarg]

So hard cover is actually useful again? Good to know. Thank you, Cyonan.

[Cyonan]

Jeremiah12LGeek wrote...
How about Cyonan's Mechanics, or just Cyonan?


I haven't read pages 2 or 3 yet (sorry if asked and answered).

I'm having fun testing the limits of Volus DR. How would this affect them? My understanding is that a Volus can never be considered "in cover". Does that mean their cumulative DR is multiplied by 71 at all times?

They'd not be able to negate the out of cover bonus, so yeah their DR would only be 71.4% as effective at all times(multiplied by 0.714).

I tested it while ago and found that the Volus heavy melee reduced damage by ~42% while out of cover.

Accounting for the out of cover damage bonus, this means it does ~58% damage reduction, which it will never do since you can't get into cover.

Modifié par Cyonan, 26 janvier 2013 - 08:44 .

[Jeremiah12LGeek]

Cyonan wrote...

Jeremiah12LGeek wrote...
How about Cyonan's Mechanics, or just Cyonan?


I haven't read pages 2 or 3 yet (sorry if asked and answered).

I'm having fun testing the limits of Volus DR. How would this affect them? My understanding is that a Volus can never be considered "in cover". Does that mean their cumulative DR is multiplied by 71 at all times?

They'd not be able to negate the out of cover bonus, so yeah their DR would only be 71.4% as effective at all times(multiplied by 0.714).

I tested it while ago and found that the Volus heavy melee reduced damage by ~42% while out of cover.

Accounting for the out of cover damage bonus, this means it does ~58% damage reduction, which it will never do since you can't get into cover.

Good to know, thanks.

So far the only big DR I've had with a Volus (not counting the temp 100% immunity) was when hanging in a Defensively-specced Justicar bubble. I seemed to be taking more damage than the Justicar over time, but I suspect Reave accounted for that (it would show more because of the tiny health-shield pool, as well).

I mostly used Shield Boost, so I probably was seeing (50+40) x .714 (with the 6 second DR rank) for 64% DR. Which explains why I still went down occasionally (not often, when shields restore to full every 3 seconds! )

[Cyonan]

Jeremiah12LGeek wrote...
Good to know, thanks.

So far the only big DR I've had with a Volus (not counting the temp 100% immunity) was when hanging in a Defensively-specced Justicar bubble. I seemed to be taking more damage than the Justicar over time, but I suspect Reave accounted for that (it would show more because of the tiny health-shield pool, as well).

I mostly used Shield Boost, so I probably was seeing (50+40) x .714 (with the 6 second DR rank) for 64% DR. Which explains why I still went down occasionally (not often, when shields restore to full every 3 seconds! )

Reave would give the Justicar a lot more survivability in that case since effective health isn't a linear scale.

Basically, the more DR you have, the more effective getting 1% more is going to become, until you hit full on damage immunity. Any DR class + Justicar Bubble offers great survivability, especially if you take cover in the bubble, if you can =P

[sobit]

Cyonan wrote...

Finally awake again now.

I fixed the damage_damage typo. It says enemy_damage now.

Also fixed the typo in the formula so that DR isn't reversed in effectiveness when used.

thanks, my ocd was raging

[Veramocor]

sobit wrote...

Cyonan wrote...

Finally awake again now.

I fixed the damage_damage typo. It says enemy_damage now.

Also fixed the typo in the formula so that DR isn't reversed in effectiveness when used.

thanks, my ocd was raging

Does Reave DR stack?  Meaning you hit one Mook with reave and then a second Mook do you max out at 40% DR or get 80% DR.

[Deerber]

Cyonan wrote...

As a side note, something else I noticed in my testing:

Being in cover grants you additional damage reduction. When you lean out of cover to aim at the enemy you lose this damage reduction rapidly over the course of about 0.5-1 seconds.

Specifically for the Typhoon, I suspect that this is the damage reduction that BioWare was talking about when they said that the Typhoon retains it while leaning out of cover, not the "out of cover damage bonus" that gets referenced at 40% DR around here often(on a technical level, that's an enemy damage boost rather than personal damage reduction).

Tests show that no gun in the game retains this damage reduction while leaning out of cover, however. Not even the Typhoon.

That would be likely, yeah. How much does that DR account for?

[twiffer]

informative. i'd think DR would be most useful out of cover, so the fact that is suffers is disappointing. and frustrating.