59 réponses à ce sujet

[SynGMW]

My understanding with Viddathari is that it is like an in-between state, almost a Qunari-in-training. For example, Tallis refers to herself multiple times as a Qunari, not a Viddathari. However, the two newly recruited elves in DA2 are Viddathari. They have just begun the process of accepting and fully becoming Qunari.

To further discuss the point, in the hopes of full clarity, my brother is currently a Chaplain's Assistant with the US Army. However, once he is enrolled in his Master's program to become a Chaplain, he is neither Chaplain or Chaplain's assistant. He's in between, and I find it somewhat humorous to say my brother is Viddathari.

As for additional terms, you could add Kadan, if you want. It's a term of endearment that Sten uses for the Warden and Alistair. I get the impression that it's similar to bassilit-an, but more personal.

[Wulfram]

SynGMW wrote...

My understanding with Viddathari is that it is like an in-between state, almost a Qunari-in-training. For example, Tallis refers to herself multiple times as a Qunari, not a Viddathari. However, the two newly recruited elves in DA2 are Viddathari. They have just begun the process of accepting and fully becoming Qunari.

Technically I believe this is the case, but as I understand it viddithari does get applied more widely to all non-oxmen Qunari.

[Sith Grey Warden]

As a race, the Qunari could also be referred to as "giants" based on a number of in-game conversations. While it's not their vocabulary, I think it would be more polite than "oxman," which would imply that they are somewhere between being an intelligent race and an animal.

Modifié par Sith Grey Warden, 26 janvier 2013 - 06:41 .

[daft inquisitor]

Herr Uhl wrote...

legbamel wrote...

Back on point, I thought the difference between Vashoth and Tal'Vashoth was the person's attitude toward the Qun. The former are all those who left the Qunari and the latter are those who actively fight against them. Or am I completely off?

No, that is kind of right. Tal is added for the ones that are violent.

Ah, excellent, this was the type of post I was hoping to get out of this thread!

95% of what I put in the OP are things derived from the Wiki. Having statements from the devs differentiating things like this is an amazing help. Thanks! 

SynGMW wrote...

My understanding with Viddathari is that it is like an in-between state, almost a Qunari-in-training. For example, Tallis refers to herself multiple times as a Qunari, not a Viddathari. However, the two newly recruited elves in DA2 are Viddathari. They have just begun the process of accepting and fully becoming Qunari.

To further discuss the point, in the hopes of full clarity, my brother is currently a Chaplain's Assistant with the US Army. However, once he is enrolled in his Master's program to become a Chaplain, he is neither Chaplain or Chaplain's assistant. He's in between, and I find it somewhat humorous to say my brother is Viddathari.

As for additional terms, you could add Kadan, if you want. It's a term of endearment that Sten uses for the Warden and Alistair. I get the impression that it's similar to bassilit-an, but more personal.

Ah, this is also an interesting take. I will incorporate this into an OP as a possibliity.

Modifié par ShadowDragoonFTW, 26 janvier 2013 - 06:43 .

[daft inquisitor]

In Exile wrote...

ShadowDragoonFTW wrote...
Kossith - A term used for the culture of the (Racial) Qunari before the invention of the (Philosophical) Qunari. This term literally has no meaning anymore, as the Qunari are Qunari, whether Vashoth or not.

My understanding was that this term was a reference to a nation of grey-skinned, (sometimes) horned giants prior to the Qun, but not a name of their species (or race). Similar to how "Americans" refers to a distinct nation and culture, but isn't what we would consider a "race" of people. 

ETA: Basically, I'm not sure if "culture" is the right word for it.

It's still technically correct by my definition, though. The Qunari, as a term, refers specifically to those who follow the ways of the Qun. Mostly, that's a cultural thing. However, considering there is an entire race dedicated solely to that culture, that is also how they refer to themselves as a race. If there were other Qunari out there, on a distant island or something, who had no idea what the Qun was, they would neither be Kossith nor Qunari, as they would be unfamiliar with both cultures that are represented by those terms.

As the "Kossith" was their 

Also, to back up the statement as it is, here is it directly from a dev's mouth. 
http://social.biowar...3267/3#14904924

Modifié par ShadowDragoonFTW, 26 janvier 2013 - 07:08 .

[nightscrawl]

Have you looked at this wiki page? Not only is it a list of words and terms, but there are also extensive references sited at the bottom.

[daft inquisitor]

nightscrawl wrote...

Have you looked at this wiki page? Not only is it a list of words and terms, but there are also extensive references sited at the bottom.

I've noticed that, but this is more for the forum-goers who neglect the wiki, and also as a way to bring up discussion and references on the Forums that might have been missed on the wiki.

We've already found two clarifications from Devs that are not present on the Wiki, so I consider this small project a success.

[Sutekh]

SynGMW wrote...

As for additional terms, you could add Kadan, if you want. It's a term of endearment that Sten uses for the Warden and Alistair. I get the impression that it's similar to bassilit-an, but more personal.

It seems to be just a generic term of endearment: in Sten's nightmare in the Fade (DAO), one of his fellow Qunari calls him "kadan". "Basalit-an" is for bas (outsider) only.

[daft inquisitor]

Sutekh wrote...

SynGMW wrote...

As for additional terms, you could add Kadan, if you want. It's a term of endearment that Sten uses for the Warden and Alistair. I get the impression that it's similar to bassilit-an, but more personal.

It seems to be just a generic term of endearment: in Sten's nightmare in the Fade (DAO), one of his fellow Qunari calls him "kadan". "Basalit-an" is for bas (outsider) only.

According to the wiki, it's a general term for those close to the speaker. Colleagues and loved-ones are mentioned specifically.

EDIT: The term is actually pertinent enough that I have added it to the front page.

Modifié par ShadowDragoonFTW, 26 janvier 2013 - 07:17 .

[Zerker]

ShadowDragoonFTW wrote...
As part of this little breakdown, we have the [Tal']Vashoth. Regardless of whether you are racially a Qunari, or religiously a Qunari, anyone who ceases to follow those tenants are no longer Qunari in any regard.

Let's assume there is a religion named Humanism, followers of this religion are called Human, regardless of their species.

In addition, while differents species among Humans have separate historical names for ethnologic/racial classification(for example; Martians, Eldar, Na'vi etc), the dominant creatures of the Empire, who resemble the great apes of Earth, do not own such a name. And if they do, nobody knows it. 

If one of these "Humans" quit the religion of Humanism, they are called Ron Burgundies. However, they will also carry the identity for their biological characteristics, a Ron Burgundy can also be a Martian, and he will be recognized as a Martian due to his giant green head.
But again, if one of the dominant ape-like Humans quit the religion, they will just be Ron Burgundies and nothing more. Not Human, not anything else.

So now, we have 2 different names for the same damn species, each of these names(Human and Ron Burgundy) are also completely shared by multiple other species as a valid ethnic identity.

Then what the hell is the name for the common ancestry of these both ape-like Humans and Ron Burgundies share? What an ape-like Human or Ron Burgundy specimen should be called scientifically or for proper ethnologic classification? Or even for daily use?

If they ever make an mmorpg or something similar for this franchise, I believe more than half of the role players would be mindf.ked about Qunari, they need to enlarge the terminology a little bit.

Modifié par Maddok900, 26 janvier 2013 - 08:05 .

[nightscrawl]

ShadowDragoonFTW wrote...

I've noticed that, but this is more for the forum-goers who neglect the wiki, and also as a way to bring up discussion and references on the Forums that might have been missed on the wiki.

We've already found two clarifications from Devs that are not present on the Wiki, so I consider this small project a success.

I didn't mention it to say this thread was pointless, merely to introduce supplemental material.

Also, this post, and these dev posts.

[daft inquisitor]

Maddok900 wrote...

ShadowDragoonFTW wrote...
As part of this little breakdown, we have the [Tal']Vashoth. Regardless of whether you are racially a Qunari, or religiously a Qunari, anyone who ceases to follow those tenants are no longer Qunari in any regard.

Let's assume there is a religion named Humanism, followers of this religion are called Human, regardless of their species.

In addition, while differents species among Humans have separate historical names for ethnologic/racial classification(for example; Martians, Eldar, Na'vi etc), the dominant creatures of the Empire, who resemble the great apes of Earth, do not own such a name. And if they do, nobody knows it. 

If one of these "Humans" quit the religion of Humanism, they are called Ron Burgundies. However, they will also carry the identity for their biological characteristics, a Ron Burgundy can also be a Martian, and he will be recognized as a Martian due to his giant green head.
However, if one of the dominant ape-like Humans quit the religion, they will just be Ron Burgundies and nothing more. Not Human, not anything else.

So now, we have 2 different names for the same damn species, each of these names(Human and Ron Burgundy) are also completely shared by multiple other species as a valid ethnic identity.

Then what the hell is the name for the common ancestry of these both ape-like Humans and Ron Burgundies share? What an ape-like Human or Ron Burgundy specimen should be called scientifically or for proper ethnologic classification? Or even for daily use?

If they ever make an mmorpg or something similar for this franchise, I believe more than half of the role players would be mindf.ked about Qunari, they need to enlarge the terminology a little bit.

Oh, I agree with you that it's confusing as hell, but it makes sense from a certain perspective. This guide is here to help others try to understand the intricasies. 

nightscrawl wrote...

ShadowDragoonFTW wrote...

I've noticed that, but this is more for the forum-goers who neglect the wiki, and also as a way to bring up discussion and references on the Forums that might have been missed on the wiki.

We've already found two clarifications from Devs that are not present on the Wiki, so I consider this small project a success.

I didn't mention it to say this thread was pointless, merely to introduce supplemental material.

Also, this post, and these dev posts.

I will look into those posts when I have time. Thanks for the contribution!

Modifié par ShadowDragoonFTW, 26 janvier 2013 - 07:55 .

[nightscrawl]

Maddok900 wrote...

Then what the hell is the name for the common ancestry of these both ape-like Humans and Ron Burgundies share? What an ape-like Human or Ron Burgundy specimen should be called scientifically or for proper ethnologic classification? Or even for daily use?

I believe that the point David Gaider and Mary Kirby try to make is that the circumstances that you just described are not an issue for Thedosians. This is really only an issue for us forum goers, and not for people in Thedas.


[edit]
I do believe there should be a term for the giant-grey-skinned-sometimes-horned race that make up the majority of the Qunari, if for no other reason than writing "giant-grey-skinned-sometimes-horned race that make up the majority of the Qunari" is tedious. To be honest, the devs should realize that people are going to want to call them something to be as specific as possible, it is human (hah!) nature to label things. In this case, the disparity between having a name for humans, elves, and dwarves, but not the "giant-grey-skinned-sometimes-horned race that make up the majority of the Qunari" does seem a bit odd.

I'm thinking that the problem might be that they are afraid that if they gave the race a name, then (forum using) players will expect that to be used in the official material (games, novels, lore books), whereas the devs don't feel the Qunari would have such a term, and that it is not necessary in Thedas. Then you have a conflict with players accusing the devs of not following their own lore. So I can see how they would rather avoid all of that mess.

Modifié par nightscrawl, 26 janvier 2013 - 08:14 .

[esper]

nightscrawl wrote...

Maddok900 wrote...

Then what the hell is the name for the common ancestry of these both ape-like Humans and Ron Burgundies share? What an ape-like Human or Ron Burgundy specimen should be called scientifically or for proper ethnologic classification? Or even for daily use?

I believe that the point David Gaider and Mary Kirby try to make is that the circumstances that you just described are not an issue for Thedosians. This is really only an issue for us forum goers, and not for people in Thedas.

But us forum goers need a term too, hence why 'Kossith' spread without those two wanting it to spread.

That is the thing with langue. When it is lacking the next-best simply gets absorbed into it.

Though I guess we could all try to agree on giants or ox-men.

[Zerker]

Well, Giant Ox-men is good enough for me.

[legbamel]

What's wrong with using two words to be more descriptive, when you refer to a non-Qunari Vashoth? I assume, if you use the terms Qunari, Vashoth, or Tal'Vashoth, that you are speaking of one of the giants unless you mention otherwise. Had you been able to dissuade Tallis from following the Qun she'd be elven Vashoth (or elven Tal'Vashoth, depending), which seems quite clear to me. It gives more information about her relationship to the Qun while still pointing out that she was Qunari but not a giant.

[esper]

legbamel wrote...

What's wrong with using two words to be more descriptive, when you refer to a non-Qunari Vashoth? I assume, if you use the terms Qunari, Vashoth, or Tal'Vashoth, that you are speaking of one of the giants unless you mention otherwise. Had you been able to dissuade Tallis from following the Qun she'd be elven Vashoth (or elven Tal'Vashoth, depending), which seems quite clear to me. It gives more information about her relationship to the Qun while still pointing out that she was Qunari but not a giant.

Because sometimes we need to discuss the Giant Oxmen as a whole without distinquishing between Qunari and Tal-Vashot.

Sometimes we need to be able to discuss Qunari without including non-Oxmen, which Qunari as a word sadly does.

[Zerker]

legbamel wrote...

What's wrong with using two words to be more descriptive, when you refer to a non-Qunari Vashoth? I assume, if you use the terms Qunari, Vashoth, or Tal'Vashoth, that you are speaking of one of the giants unless you mention otherwise. Had you been able to dissuade Tallis from following the Qun she'd be elven Vashoth (or elven Tal'Vashoth, depending), which seems quite clear to me. It gives more information about her relationship to the Qun while still pointing out that she was Qunari but not a giant.

There is nothing wrong with it at all. It's just for proper racial classification purposes, it is more mind-comforting to have a certain name while having a discussion, both in-game and forum wise.

[daft inquisitor]

esper wrote...

legbamel wrote...

What's wrong with using two words to be more descriptive, when you refer to a non-Qunari Vashoth? I assume, if you use the terms Qunari, Vashoth, or Tal'Vashoth, that you are speaking of one of the giants unless you mention otherwise. Had you been able to dissuade Tallis from following the Qun she'd be elven Vashoth (or elven Tal'Vashoth, depending), which seems quite clear to me. It gives more information about her relationship to the Qun while still pointing out that she was Qunari but not a giant.

Because sometimes we need to discuss the Giant Oxmen as a whole without distinquishing between Qunari and Tal-Vashot.

Sometimes we need to be able to discuss Qunari without including non-Oxmen, which Qunari as a word sadly does.

That's why "Qunari" has been, blatantly so, stated as being the generic term for the "Giant grey-skinned oxmen". Tal'Vashoth are still a sub-type of Qunari, even if they aren't technically Qunari anymore. So, the term Qunari, when speaking purely in generics, is still a proper term for Vashoth as well.

Again, confusing and obnoxious, but it makes a lot of sense from the proper perspective. 

Modifié par ShadowDragoonFTW, 26 janvier 2013 - 08:21 .

[legbamel]

While I guess I understand your desire for a term, the writers have said that Kossith doesn't work in those situations, either, as it doesn't refer to a genetic type (Giant Oxmen) but an expired subdivision thereof. The Kossith became Qunari. If you refer to non-giant adherents you can just say "all Qunari" to include rather than an archaeological term that technically includes no one.

Like I wrote, my assumption on seeing any word used to refer to a person and their standing in regard to the Qun means Giant Oxman unless it's otherwise specified. If that's how the people who created the world intended it I'm hardly going to insist that something else is canon or right.

[esper]

ShadowDragoonFTW wrote...

esper wrote...

legbamel wrote...

What's wrong with using two words to be more descriptive, when you refer to a non-Qunari Vashoth? I assume, if you use the terms Qunari, Vashoth, or Tal'Vashoth, that you are speaking of one of the giants unless you mention otherwise. Had you been able to dissuade Tallis from following the Qun she'd be elven Vashoth (or elven Tal'Vashoth, depending), which seems quite clear to me. It gives more information about her relationship to the Qun while still pointing out that she was Qunari but not a giant.

Because sometimes we need to discuss the Giant Oxmen as a whole without distinquishing between Qunari and Tal-Vashot.

Sometimes we need to be able to discuss Qunari without including non-Oxmen, which Qunari as a word sadly does.

That's why "Qunari" has been, blatantly so, stated as being the generic term for the "Giant grey-skinned oxmen". Tal'Vashoth are still a sub-type of Qunari, even if they aren't technically Qunari anymore. So, the term Qunari, when speaking purely in generics, is still a proper term for Vashoth as well.

Again, confusing and obnoxious, but it makes a lot of sense from the proper perspective. 

Sadly it doesn't work. Because sentences such as 'Qunari is a religion not a race' is stressed IN GAME.

As players who have more metaknowlegde of Thedas than the Thedosians we need more precise terms than the Thedosian who doesn't discuss on the same meta-level as we do.


I am personally voting for Giant Ox-men.

[Potato Cat]

Don't get me wrong, I love almost everything about the Qunari, but no matter what David Gaider, our future thumb-cat overlords, or the cast of Firefly say, I will not call the specific race we've come to know and love anything other than "Kossith", (I find oxmen to be nearly as bad knife-ears). Yes, it may be completely archaic in Thedas now, but unfortunately, Thedas doesn't exist and we're stuck with this boring ol' universe and here, we need a term to distinguish since the term "Qunari" can be any race.

And even then, the Qunari, being as uber-efficient as they are, they must have records kept on everyone somewhere, and since the race CAN contribute to their assigned role, they must have some word to distinguish Kossith Qunari and Elven Qunari.

[XX-Pyro]

I think people who nitpick when someone says Qunari or someone says Vashoth/Kossith/Ox need better things to nitpick about. That being said, it bothers me to no end in real life when someone refers to Jewish people as a race. They aren't. It's a religion. (And no I'm not Jewish so that's not why it bothers me.)

Modifié par XX-Pyro, 26 janvier 2013 - 08:59 .

[Fast Jimmy]

XX-Pyro wrote...

I think people who nitpick when someone says Qunari or someone says Vashoth/Kossith/Ox need better things to nitpick about. That being said, it bothers me to no end in real life when someone refers to Jewish people as a race. They aren't. It's a religion. (And no I'm not Jewish so that's not why it bothers me.)

The actual descendants of Abraham and the twelve tribes of Judah have genetic characteristics that distinguish them from others who had cultural heritage in the same regions of the world. 

I don't see where the line between "having unique genetic characteristics" and "being a race" falls off, but to say it bothers you is a little confusing. 

Not all members of the Jewish faith are descendants of the twelve tribes. Not all descendants of the twelve tribes are members of the Jewish faith. But there are biological markers which identify the descendants of the Twelve tribes. To call the people who share those traits a race seems logical. To call that race Jewish, or Hebrew, also seems logical (especially since Israel is a country and calling that said race Israelites can be confusing).

Regardless, I sympathize with the above poster who says they will still refer to gray skinned giants as Kossiths. It really does just make more sense. 

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 26 janvier 2013 - 09:28 .

[XX-Pyro]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

XX-Pyro wrote...

I think people who nitpick when someone says Qunari or someone says Vashoth/Kossith/Ox need better things to nitpick about. That being said, it bothers me to no end in real life when someone refers to Jewish people as a race. They aren't. It's a religion. (And no I'm not Jewish so that's not why it bothers me.)

The actual descendants of Abraham and the twelve tribes of Judah have genetic characteristics that distinguish them from others who had cultural heritage in the same regions of the world. 

I don't see where the line between "having unique genetic characteristics" and "being a race" falls off, but to say it bothers you is a little confusing. 

Not all members of the Jewish faith are descendants of the twelve tribes. Not all descendants of the twelve tribes are members of the Jewish faith. But there are biological markers which identify the descendants of the Twelve tribes. To call the people who share those traits a race seems logical. To call that race Jewish, or Hebrew, also seems logical (especially since Israel is a country and calling that said race Israelites can be confusing).

Regardless, I sympathize with the above poster who says they will still refer to gray skinned giants as Kossiths. It really does just make more sense. 

I suppose the line fades off with time. Races of human (if we're even going to classify humans in racial groups) as you said are generally genetically similar, however we also tend to lump different people into groups based off of nationality or general location. We don't generally use the term Macedonian anymore (it's rare,) even less do we use Aryan or Mayan. Just as Christianity and Islam aren't races, Judaism in TODAY's world is also, not a race, they are all religions, open to anyone of any race or heritage (generally speaking.) I'm sure you could find two Jewish people who are as genetically different as a Jewish person and any random person of another (or no) faith. All that aside I didn't mean to get into this discussion at all (especially on BSN) so I'm going to end that one here. I'm a bit of a hypocrite when it comes to dealing with the terms in Dragon Age simply because I was led to believe throughout the games that Qunari was in fact the term for the race and despite that not being explicitly the case I can't be bothered changing the habit.