59 réponses à ce sujet

[nightscrawl]

As I understand it, it's very simple. 95% of the time when you refer to a Qunari or a Vashoth, that is going to be a giant-grey-skinned-person who might also have horns. If you are NOT referring to a giant-grey-skinned-person who might also have horns, you can say a "human Qunari", "elf Qunari", or "dwarf Qunari" (or Vashoth).

I honestly don't think that if you have a thread asking for a Qunari LI, the devs and other people are going to actually be confused because they don't know if you mean the giant-grey-skinned-people who might also have horns, as opposed to some other race who can also be Qunari.

Modifié par nightscrawl, 26 janvier 2013 - 11:51 .

[Fast Jimmy]

If an ox man giant child was found out in the wild abandoned and raised by Dwarves, with no knowledge of the surface or Qunari ways, what would you call it?

Tal'Vashoth? That seems highly inaccurate, since the child never knew the Qun to deny their role in it. Qunari? The name means "those of the Qun," which is not really accurate at all for someone who has never heard anything about the Qun.

A horned ox men, raised by dwarves, would probably follow the Paragons and listen to The Stone. They would have no connection the Qun or the Qunari philosophy. So it would make no sense to call them a Qunari. Just like there is a word for those off a different race who follow the Qun (Viddathari), there should be a term for someone of that race who was raised completely removed from the religion.

I stand by the fact that the name for such a situation would be Kossith, based on what we have been told so far. If the devs want to switch that name to something else, that's cool, but a name needs to exist.

[SynGMW]

In the example given of a Qunari being raised by the Dwarves and completely unaware of the Qun, there's no reason they would be called Kossith, because the Dwarves are completely unaware of that term. They would probably call him freak, mutant, maybe Qunari depending on what the Dwarves were like that raised him, they could call him a Dwarf to try and make him fit in, or they could come up with a name all their own (or maybe a name that a mean kid gives the Qunari...kids are mean...).

With Judaism, some connect race and religion into one, while others don't. Likewise, some Christians would take Christian as their sole identifier with the belief that it is the only identifier that matters. I'm sure some Muslims feel the same.

For the Qunari, they are Qunari. That's it. Taking the example of Christianity (as it's the one I'm most familiar with, since it's what I am), I don't ever feel the need to distinguish what "type" of Christian someone is. For example, I find it useless to say someone is an American Christian or German Christian, because what matters and what is the defining characteristic is the Christianity.

I imagine it is similar for the Qunari. The (sometimes) horned Qunari are "German," the pointy-eyed Qunari are "American," the bearded Qunari are "Russian." The point is that they are Qunari. Hopefully that view makes sense to people?

[Fast Jimmy]

SynGMW wrote...

In the example given of a Qunari being raised by the Dwarves and completely unaware of the Qun, there's no reason they would be called Kossith, because the Dwarves are completely unaware of that term. They would probably call him freak, mutant, maybe Qunari depending on what the Dwarves were like that raised him, they could call him a Dwarf to try and make him fit in, or they could come up with a name all their own (or maybe a name that a mean kid gives the Qunari...kids are mean...).

With Judaism, some connect race and religion into one, while others don't. Likewise, some Christians would take Christian as their sole identifier with the belief that it is the only identifier that matters. I'm sure some Muslims feel the same.

For the Qunari, they are Qunari. That's it. Taking the example of Christianity (as it's the one I'm most familiar with, since it's what I am), I don't ever feel the need to distinguish what "type" of Christian someone is. For example, I find it useless to say someone is an American Christian or German Christian, because what matters and what is the defining characteristic is the Christianity.

I imagine it is similar for the Qunari. The (sometimes) horned Qunari are "German," the pointy-eyed Qunari are "American," the bearded Qunari are "Russian." The point is that they are Qunari. Hopefully that view makes sense to people?

It does and it doesn't. 

My example of being raised by Dwarves was a little far-fetched. So let me ask a different question.

Sten was an example of a hornless Qunari. We know he is a follower of the Qun.

If I wanted to ask if there were any known hornless Qunari who did not follow the Qun (Tal'Vassoth), that statement would not make sense. Again, Qunari means followers of the Qun. A hornless Qunari who does not follow the Qun could not be a Qunari, even though he is a Qunari.

In fact, the Arishok in DA2 says himself - the Tal'Vashoth are NOT Qunari. Exact quote from DA2, I played it less than 24 hours ago. Does that make Tal'Vashoth NOT ox-men? Of course not. But it does demonstrate that even those of the ox-men race see the Qunari as a religion, not as a race. 

Its not that it is too confusing for most people to understand... it just doesn't many any sense at all. 

[SynGMW]

I want to start by saying continuing the discussion has no intention of being argumentative, but is rather merely continuing to ponder this whole thing together. If I ever seem argumentative at any point, I apologize.

I remember that line of the Arishok's as well. Perhaps his response that they are not Qunari is one of anger? They disgust him, so he doesn't count them as one of the Qunari, even though they are? Or perhaps, there's a level of tone that makes a difference? For example, my wife's old college roommate was Jewish, but she wasn't a Jew. She was Jewish in her dna/culture, but she was not Jewish in her religion.

In that vein, the Tal'Vashoth are Qunari in their dna, but they are not Qunari in their religion. Hence, the Arishok saying the Tal'Vashoth are not Qunari. I wonder how much of the Tal'Vashoth being both Qunari and NOT Qunari is a result similar to people that immigrate to a new nation. At some point, people stopped saying they were a British/Irish/German/Dutch mix and simply saying they are American (as is my case). Perhaps at this point I'm just babbling without really thinking clearly...

[nightscrawl]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

I stand by the fact that the name for such a situation would be Kossith, based on what we have been told so far. If the devs want to switch that name to something else, that's cool, but a name needs to exist.

In a previous post I said there needs to be a name. That said, there isn't one currently, and the devs consider use of "kossith" to be inaccurate. I see no reason to use an inaccurate term for a hypothetical situation that does not exist, simply to put forumites in a happy mental place when talking about these people.

If you must, come up with a new term that people on the BSN can agree to use in these discussions, but "kossith" should not be that term.

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Sten was an example of a hornless Qunari. We know he is a follower of the Qun.

If I wanted to ask if there were any known hornless Qunari who did not follow the Qun (Tal'Vassoth), that statement would not make sense. Again, Qunari means followers of the Qun. A hornless Qunari who does not follow the Qun could not be a Qunari, even though he is a Qunari.

In that case, "hornless Tal'Vashoth". I guarantee people (on the forums, few in Thedas are probably even aware of the distinction of Tal'Vashoth) would take your meaning.

Modifié par nightscrawl, 27 janvier 2013 - 03:56 .

[Thasinta]

SynGMW wrote...
I remember that line of the Arishok's as well. Perhaps his response that they are not Qunari is one of anger? They disgust him, so he doesn't count them as one of the Qunari, even though they are?

People do (or at least, used to do) that all the time, along the lines of:

"All Scotsmen love Haggis!"
"But Sean Connery hates haggis?"
"Ah, he's not a true Scotsman!"

So I think that may well be what's going on in the Arishok's head when he denies they are Qunari.

I think we may just have to settle for not having a proper and correct word to talk about these people. "Kossith" is apparently outdated, refers to an earlier culture (maybe like calling modern French "Franks" or modern Spanish "Goths" or modern Scandinavians "Vikings"?) and isn't well-known in Thedas.

Seems to me, the Qunari aren't as hung up about race as the rest of Thedas. Do they even have words (in their language) for other races, like humans or elves or dwarves? I've a hunch they don't, they just see it as "You're one of us" vs. "You're not one of us". So they'd have no special name for their race, any more than for the other races.

On the other hand, I don't really imagine any harm done if "Kossith" gets used as a forum shorthand for "big grey people who tend to have horns, and usually but not always follow the Qun". It might be confusing to some, and maybe some people wouldn't like that it would never get to be used in the game, with most of Thedas' dwellers using "Qunari" to refer to the race. Maybe the developers worry players will complain on the forums if a character in-game refers to the race as "Qunari"?

[nightcobra]

nightscrawl wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

I stand by the fact that the name for such a situation would be Kossith, based on what we have been told so far. If the devs want to switch that name to something else, that's cool, but a name needs to exist.

In a previous post I said there needs to be a name. That said, there isn't one currently, and the devs consider use of "kossith" to be inaccurate. I see no reason to use an inaccurate term for a hypothetical situation that does not exist, simply to put forumites in a happy mental place when talking about these people.

If you must, come up with a new term that people on the BSN can agree to use in these discussions, but "kossith" should not be that term.

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Sten was an example of a hornless Qunari. We know he is a follower of the Qun.

If I wanted to ask if there were any known hornless Qunari who did not follow the Qun (Tal'Vassoth), that statement would not make sense. Again, Qunari means followers of the Qun. A hornless Qunari who does not follow the Qun could not be a Qunari, even though he is a Qunari.

In that case, "hornless Tal'Vashoth". I guarantee people (on the forums, few in Thedas are probably even aware of the distinction of Tal'Vashoth) would take your meaning.

we can't really call them ash skinned tall ones (that's just too long to say), demons and ogres are already taken too...we could just call them giants, heck in DAO fereldans seem to like that term for them:whistle: 

[Sir JK]

Regarding the usage of the phrase Qunari for the race. I think it is important to remember that calling yourself Qunari is a point of identification. Calling them something else would probably get as much attention from them as calling me North Germanic, Norse or ****** Sapien Sapien... you'd have to clue me in that it is me you're refering to. I don't identify with those terms and similarily I doubt you'd find a Qunari that identifies as anything other than that or (Tal')Vashoth. Even if they refuse to acknowledge belonging to either group they'd still know it's them you're talking about.

As such, what the race is called is rather moot, isn't it?. All members of said race have been raised as Qunari or possibly Tal'Vashoth. They are going to identify with those words. There aren't any of them that those words will not have been an accurate descriptor of at some point in their lives.

As for how we differentiate elven, dwarven and human qunari from the gray ones? We got Viddathari, but beyond that I wonder if we should. They do not seem to care a lot about race. Just duty and relationship with the Qun. So if we refer to a specific qunari, we refer to them by the name they gave us (Sten, Tallis), if we refer to a specific collective of qunari by the name of their role (Arvaraad, Beresaad, Ben-Hassrath, Tal'Vashoth, Tamassaran) and if we refer to the Qunari we say that.

Why would we need to separate the elven Qunari from the rest if the Qunari do not do so? There's no doubt they'll have a specific role as fits their skills, but that sub-identity will have a name of it's own. So let us use those to differentiate one Qunari from another from one another?

EDIT: Think of it this way. When we say dwarf we refer both to a race and a culture. We do not say "underground dwarf" to specify they're the baseline dwarf from Orzammar. We just say dwarf. Surface dwarf is a separate identity, so we use a different word for them.

Modifié par Sir JK, 27 janvier 2013 - 12:31 .

[Annihilator27]

If you see this David,Any more terms you can toss in here?