230 réponses à ce sujet

[Davik Kang]

Simple question: why does the character at the end of the game, who calls himself the Catalyst, calls the Citadel his home, and claims to control the Reapers, look like a holographic representation of a human child that Shepard had seen in a recurring dream throughout ME3?

To cover the basics briefly: the ME3 intro has us witness, through Shepard, the death of a young boy in Vancouver.  Shepard proceeds to have a recurring dream about the boy - in other words, this child becomes the focal point of three dream sequences.  We see the child when Shepard is dreaming.

We confront the Child a final time in the endgame sequence, often referred to as the Decision Chamber.  So, again, simple question: why does the Reaper boss look like a dead human child who haunted your dreams?  This is a genuine question, not a poke at any individual or group of individuals.  

It is especially directed at those who think that IT and other theories are delusional or headcanon; those who think that the idea of interpreting the game's ending is absurd; and those who think that the Bioware writing team messed up and had no idea what they were doing.  However, all answers are welcome from everyone.  Please do make an honest attempt to explain your answer, as general unspecific attacks on Bioware or other forum users just come across as a lazy or defensive response to a reasonable question.  For example, if you think it's "Bad Writing", at least explain what you think the writers were going for - even bad writers are trying to achieve something, even if they execute it badly.

So yeah, again, why do you think the Reaper leader looks like a human child?  Given that he was in three dreams, the logical explanation seems to me that the final scene is at the very least some kind of hallucination, and the indication is clearly there that it could possibly be a 4th dream.  I don't see how his presence could possibly be an unintended coincidence on the part of the developers, but if you do, they please explain why.

Modifié par Davik Kang, 26 janvier 2013 - 04:06 .

[fiendishchicken]

Because of forced emotions.

BW thinks that the kid really affects Shepard. I felt genuinely sad seeing the kid die. But he just kept appearing.

Now everytime I see him, I'm like 'DIE MOTHER****ER DIE!!'

[Nerevar-as]

My guess is the Starbrat chose that form to predispose Shepard to accept its choices. Considering the kid had the opposite effect in the player than in-game to Shep, that made it even more pathetic. Sadly we couldn´t call it out in asuming the form of one of its victims.

[Davik Kang]

fiendishchicken wrote...

Because of forced emotions.

BW thinks that the kid really affects Shepard. I felt genuinely sad seeing the kid die. But he just kept appearing.

Now everytime I see him, I'm like 'DIE MOTHER****ER DIE!!'

This could be an answer as to why Shepard dreams about the Kid, but I'm asking, why does the Reaper Leader look like this kid?

[MegaSovereign]

"Your memories give voice to our words"

-Leviathan.

I wish the Catalyst shuffled through the appearances of the character that died in Shepard's playthrough. It would have made the scene feel more surreal like the Leviathan confrontation.

[Davik Kang]

Nerevar-as wrote...

My guess is the Starbrat chose that form to predispose Shepard to accept its choices. Considering the kid had the opposite effect in the player than in-game to Shep, that made it even more pathetic. Sadly we couldn´t call it out in asuming the form of one of its victims.

How did the Reaper 'choose this form'?  Can it read Shepard's mind, and draw images out from within it?

And you say 'one of its victims' - are you saying that the Repear leader records images of all Reaper victims and can relay them via hologram on the Citadel somehow?  Why did it choose this Kid?  How does it know Shepard has been affected by this child?

This seems speculative to say the least.

[Davik Kang]

MegaSovereign wrote...

"Your memories give voice to our words"

-Leviathan.

I wish the Catalyst shuffled through the appearances of the character that died in Shepard's playthrough. It would have made the scene feel more surreal like the Leviathan confrontation.

True but I think that would have broken the atmosphere of the final scene.  Maybe it was an idea they toyed with, which could then be why they included it in Leviathan instead.

And yes, the Chamber scene is remarkably similar to the Leviathan scene, where Shepard is rendered unconscious and his subconscious mind is briefly influenced by the Leviathan's chosen images until Shepard convinces him to relinquish control.

[Mouton_Alpha]

Nerevar-as wrote...

My guess is the Starbrat chose that form to predispose Shepard to accept its choices. Considering the kid had the opposite effect in the player than in-game to Shep, that made it even more pathetic. Sadly we couldn´t call it out in asuming the form of one of its victims.

Yes, that was likely the idea behind Bioware doing this. It was silly and it backfired, probably seriously contributing to people hating Catalyst.

Although once it spoke, I dissociated it from the kid image and proceeded to like it despite how it looked.

[Nerevar-as]

Davik Kang wrote...

Nerevar-as wrote...

My guess is the Starbrat chose that form to predispose Shepard to accept its choices. Considering the kid had the opposite effect in the player than in-game to Shep, that made it even more pathetic. Sadly we couldn´t call it out in asuming the form of one of its victims.

How did the Reaper 'choose this form'?  Can it read Shepard's mind, and draw images out from within it?

And you say 'one of its victims' - are you saying that the Repear leader records images of all Reaper victims and can relay them via hologram on the Citadel somehow?  Why did it choose this Kid?  How does it know Shepard has been affected by this child?

This seems speculative to say the least.

My guess is that it can ideed read Shepard´s thoughts or emotions. Any of those would allow it to know how much the kid´s death had affected Shepard (for whatever reason, meeting Talitha affected my Shep much more - there are things much horrible than a quick death).

I meant "one of its victims" as the kid was killed by a Reaper. If we take that it was attempting to make Shep sympathetic toward itself, choosing someone Shep knew had been killed by a Reaper wasn´t the best idea. Sadly Shep must be suffering a severe head concussion<_<, as s/he says nothing about it.

[Davik Kang]

Mouton_Alpha wrote...
Yes, that was likely the idea behind Bioware doing this. It was silly and it backfired, probably seriously contributing to people hating Catalyst.

Although once it spoke, I dissociated it from the kid image and proceeded to like it despite how it looked.

But once again, where did thia ability to pull images from Shepard's mind suddenly come from?

And you say it backfired: so you think Bioware wanted us to like the Reaper leader?  To take pity on him?  A being that wants you to befriend the Reapers, or genetically alter all life?  Bear in mind that the Child at the end doesn't ever use emotional expression, and uses a rather arrogant and all-knowing tone with Shepard during the conversation.

[fiendishchicken]

Davik Kang wrote...

fiendishchicken wrote...

Because of forced emotions.

BW thinks that the kid really affects Shepard. I felt genuinely sad seeing the kid die. But he just kept appearing.

Now everytime I see him, I'm like 'DIE MOTHER****ER DIE!!'

This could be an answer as to why Shepard dreams about the Kid, but I'm asking, why does the Reaper Leader look like this kid?

I've reached the point where I stop trying to rationalize things and accept them for what they are - bad writing, bad narrative, bad idea's, forced emotions, and 'artistic integrity'

[spirosz]

MegaSovereign wrote...

"Your memories give voice to our words"

-Leviathan.

I wish the Catalyst shuffled through the appearances of the character that died in Shepard's playthrough. It would have made the scene feel more surreal like the Leviathan confrontation.

You know, that's probably the best idea, ever.  A disoriented image of Saren when Synthesis gets detailed... so epic. 

[TheCrazyHobo]

I am not sure from an in game perspective, but I do understand from a developers standpoint. They are presenting us hard moral choices given to us by the Reaper Overmind and if its appearance was something Reaperish like Harbinger, I have a feeling refuse and destroy would be more popular. That being said, having him appear as the kid generates more confusion than hostility which makes us more open to what he says instead of "OMG ITS HARBINGER KILL IT!"

[JBPBRC]

Because of reasons.

[MegaSovereign]

spirosz wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

"Your memories give voice to our words"

-Leviathan.

I wish the Catalyst shuffled through the appearances of the character that died in Shepard's playthrough. It would have made the scene feel more surreal like the Leviathan confrontation.

You know, that's probably the best idea, ever.  A disoriented image of Saren when Synthesis gets detailed... so epic. 

It would certainly make IT people cream their pants.

[Steelcan]

fiendishchicken wrote...

Because of forced emotions.

BW thinks that the kid really affects Shepard. I felt genuinely sad seeing the kid die. But he just kept appearing.

Now everytime I see him, I'm like 'DIE MOTHER****ER DIE!!'

. This about sums it up

[Davik Kang]

Nerevar-as wrote...
My guess is that it can ideed read Shepard´s thoughts or emotions. Any of those would allow it to know how much the kid´s death had affected Shepard (for whatever reason, meeting Talitha affected my Shep much more - there are things much horrible than a quick death). 

I meant "one of its victims" as the kid was killed by a Reaper. If we take that it was attempting to make Shep sympathetic toward itself, choosing someone Shep knew had been killed by a Reaper wasn´t the best idea. Sadly Shep must be suffering a severe head concussion<_<, as s/he says nothing about it.

Why not Anderson?  Or the Virmire Casualty?  Just a Child from Shepard's Dreams?

Shepard surviving a severe head concussion may be a joke on your part but isn't a good actual explanation as to why Sherpard does not mention the appearance.  But when might someone not really notice something ridiculously out of p[lace like that?  Perhaps in... a dream?

It's not the only explantation, but it seems to me much more logical than "the previously unseen Reaper Leader which apparently lives on the Citadel extracted the image of mental trauma from Shepard, and Shepard had a concussion so didn't notice..."

[Davik Kang]

fiendishchicken wrote...
I've reached the point where I stop trying to rationalize things and accept them for what they are - bad writing, bad narrative, bad idea's, forced emotions, and 'artistic integrity'

Yeah this is exactly the kind of lazy, confused answer that I suggested posters avoid in the OP.

spirosz wrote...
You know, that's probably the best idea, ever.  A disoriented image of Saren when Synthesis gets detailed... so epic. 

Might have been a bit too obvious maybe?

[Nerevar-as]

Davik Kang wrote...

Mouton_Alpha wrote...
Yes, that was likely the idea behind Bioware doing this. It was silly and it backfired, probably seriously contributing to people hating Catalyst.

Although once it spoke, I dissociated it from the kid image and proceeded to like it despite how it looked.

But once again, where did thia ability to pull images from Shepard's mind suddenly come from?

And you say it backfired: so you think Bioware wanted us to like the Reaper leader?  To take pity on him?  A being that wants you to befriend the Reapers, or genetically alter all life?  Bear in mind that the Child at the end doesn't ever use emotional expression, and uses a rather arrogant and all-knowing tone with Shepard during the conversation.

It´s a DEM (Diabolus Ex Machina), so don´t expect its powers to make sense.

And Starbrat´s presentation is supposed (IMHO) to come across as a god-like being we should listen to. Giving it the form of a character we were supposed to be sorry for just adds to it. No idea how BW couldn´t see that literally shoving the kid in our PC´s dream would make us dislike him. Emotional manipulation that obvious hardly ever works.

[Davik Kang]

TheCrazyHobo wrote...

I am not sure from an in game perspective, but I do understand from a developers standpoint. They are presenting us hard moral choices given to us by the Reaper Overmind and if its appearance was something Reaperish like Harbinger, I have a feeling refuse and destroy would be more popular. That being said, having him appear as the kid generates more confusion than hostility which makes us more open to what he says instead of "OMG ITS HARBINGER KILL IT!"

But why did the devs choose to make the Reaper look like this?  Your explanation only makes sense if Shepard had a fourth dream where the Child hugged Shepard and said something like "Don't kill the Reapers, they're just trying to stop our machines from eventually killing the children of this galaxy".

But according to most people, this final scene, with the focal point being the Child [who was the focal point in three previous Dream Sequences] is not a dream.  So why then?  The answer is really "I am not sure"?  Then why do you think it might be?

[fiendishchicken]

Davik Kang wrote...

fiendishchicken wrote...
I've reached the point where I stop trying to rationalize things and accept them for what they are - bad writing, bad narrative, bad idea's, forced emotions, and 'artistic integrity'

Yeah this is exactly the kind of lazy, confused answer that I suggested posters avoid in the OP.

Forced emotions is your answer. The writers wanted us to feel sad. They did this eminently too much, instead of letting us interpret our own feelings from the scenes. They wanted us to sympathize with the catalyst so that we would agree to its logic (and its whole problem period) and accept its 'ideal solution.' BW isn't saying it anymore, but they want you to pick synthesis. That is their ideal utopia world, and the fact that you can't question anything that is going on to the kid is evidence to me that Hudson and Walters didn't think about what they were doing, only that they wanted to do this because of, well, art.

After the coup, you can kill the VS, in my case Ashley. Everyone is feeling sad for her, even though I have my reasons for not feeling sad at all, even justified in my decision to kill her. But the game is making you feel sad. 

Or Sanctuary. Instead of telling you what happens, they should have showed you what happens. 

The game also emphasizes hatred towards Cerberus, and love and loyalty to the alliance. While I certainly don't love Cerberus, I admire them and wished to express more support for their beliefs and goals, if not their current agenda, as well as distaste and disgust for the alliance.

Anyway, to get back on point, the writers are always trying to force you to feel something.

Modifié par fiendishchicken, 26 janvier 2013 - 04:44 .

[Davik Kang]

Nerevar-as wrote...
It´s a DEM (Diabolus Ex Machina), so don´t expect its powers to make sense.

And Starbrat´s presentation is supposed (IMHO) to come across as a god-like being we should listen to. Giving it the form of a character we were supposed to be sorry for just adds to it. No idea how BW couldn´t see that literally shoving the kid in our PC´s dream would make us dislike him. Emotional manipulation that obvious hardly ever works.

It's not a DEM though.  It is certainly tempting to believe that it is: I suspect Bioware even intended people to see it like that initially.  But it's the leader of the Reapers.  Reapers aren't new.  They're the threat we've been afcing from the beginning.  And the Child image is clearly not new.  Would you still think it was a DEM if it just looked like a Reaper?  No chance in hell.  No one would.

It really is nothing like a god either.  It says it controls the Reapers.  Full stop.  Everything else about the scene might make you think it has god-aura - the setting in space, above (or below) the war-torn world, the bright glowy effect, Shepard's position on hands and knees while regaining consciousness - but there are no god-like powers ever demonstrated.  It even needs you/Shepard to activate the Crucible.

The only power being exhibited in this final scene is Shepard using the Crucible.  All the Child has is - words.  It has to convince you to make a choice.  And the choice is yours.  Not his.

If, during the infamous Beam Run, suddenly Beings of Light had mysteriously appeared from outer space and obliterated all the Reapers, THAT would've been a DEM.  The Child couldn't be further from it.

And this emotional manipulation you speak of - is Reaper manipulation.  Not Bioware's.  Again, consider his arrogant tone, and Shepard's apparent weakness in his presence.  You think Bioware would expect players to bow down to this character?  To feel sorry for him?

I doubt it.  They expect you to feel confused, disorientated, probably angry, perhaps helpless - but not sympathetic.

[DoodlyDangus]

It doesn't matter, since it's all a crock of ****. Random characters could have contacted Shepard at the control center you fight TIM at and give their opinion on how to use the Crucible.

[Mouton_Alpha]

Davik Kang wrote...

Mouton_Alpha wrote...
Yes, that was likely the idea behind Bioware doing this. It was silly and it backfired, probably seriously contributing to people hating Catalyst.

Although once it spoke, I dissociated it from the kid image and proceeded to like it despite how it looked.

But once again, where did thia ability to pull images from Shepard's mind suddenly come from?

We can only speculate, which is a sign Bioware failed in this respect. It could include Catalyst had some nifty tech of surface mind reading - supported by having absorbed Leviathans before - or that the image was really a hallucinatory indoctrination-like thing tailored for minds to shape as something familiar. But again, it is just a speculation and thus Bioware failed here.

Davik Kang wrote...
And you say it backfired: so you think Bioware wanted us to like the Reaper leader?  To take pity on him?  A being that wants you to befriend the Reapers, or genetically alter all life?  Bear in mind that the Child at the end doesn't ever use emotional expression, and uses a rather arrogant and all-knowing tone with Shepard during the conversation.

No. I believe they wanted to both establish an emotional connection and unsettle us. The dissonance between how it looked and how it sounded was fully intended. I liked it, btw, despite the aforementioned hole.