230 réponses à ce sujet

[Davik Kang]

fiendishchicken wrote...
Forced emotions is your answer. The writers wanted us to feel sad. They did this eminently too much, instead of letting us interpret our own feelings from the scenes. They wanted us to sympathize with the catalyst so that we would agree to its logic (and its whole problem period) and accept its 'ideal solution.' BW, won't say it anymore, but they want you to pick synthesis. That is their ideal utopia world, and the fact that you can't question anything that is going on to the kid is evidence to me that Hudson and Walters didn't think about what they were doing, only that they wanted to do this because of, well, art.

After the coup, you can kill the VS, in my case Ashley. Everyone is feeling sad for her, even though I have my reasons for not feeling sad at all, even justified in my decision to kill her. But the game is making you feel sad. 

Or Sanctuary. Instead of telling you what happens, they should have showed you what happens. 

The game also emphasizes hatred towards Cerberus, and love and loyalty to the alliance. While I certainly don't love Cerberus, I admire them and wished to express more support for their beliefs and goals, if not their current agenda, as well as distaste and disgust for the alliance.

Anyway, to get back on point, the writers are always trying to force you to feel something.

But you're not answering the question.  What is your explanation for the Reaper leader being able to do this?  Mind-reading?  Extrapolating dreams?  Why not use a more sympathetic character?  And why use the character who was the focal point of three dream sequences?

As an aside, saying writers want you to feel something says very little.  Virtually every story is written with the hope of making people feel something in response - that's where the enjoyment comes in.  Saying they're 'forcing' it is little more than loaded language trying to vilify the writers.  The alternative would be to say they failed, but again, if they wanted you to feel sympathy for the character - why make him so arrogant?  Why make Shepard suddenly so weak and suggestive?  You believe Bioware expect us to feel sympathy in these circumstances?  Remember that one of the biggest draws of the ME games is the player's relationship with Shepard (not the Reapers!)

Modifié par Davik Kang, 26 janvier 2013 - 04:55 .

[GreyLycanTrope]

Symbolism, the end is the beginning is the end. There's really no good in game explanation for why he does so.

[Davik Kang]

DoodlyDangus wrote...

It doesn't matter, since it's all a crock of ****. Random characters could have contacted Shepard at the control center you fight TIM at and give their opinion on how to use the Crucible.

Correct!  Except that Hackett did try to contact Shepard... but then Shepard fell unconscious... and after that, apparently no-one tried to contact Shepard... why might that be?

Mouton_Alpha wrote...
We can only speculate, which is a sign Bioware failed in this respect. It could include Catalyst had some nifty tech of surface mind reading - supported by having absorbed Leviathans before - or that the image was really a hallucinatory indoctrination-like thing tailored for minds to shape as something familiar. But again, it is just a speculation and thus Bioware failed here.
...
No. I believe they wanted to both establish an emotional connection and unsettle us. The dissonance between how it looked and how it sounded was fully intended. I liked it, btw, despite the aforementioned hole.

Ok well I agree with you on the second bit.  But you say we have to speculate - is it really more crazy to think it might have been a dream, when every other time we see the Kid we are dreaming (maybe even at the beginning but that's a different story) - than it is to speculate that the Reaper has powers to appear as a random victim from Earth?  The first seems implied by a number of things, the second seems implied but nothing at all except itself

[Davik Kang]

Greylycantrope wrote...

Symbolism, the end is the beginning is the end. There's really no good in game explanation for why he does so.

You mean - you don't have any idea why he does so.  You think there's no explanation... others beg to differ.

You must have an opinion at least?  No?

[fiendishchicken]

Davik Kang wrote...

But you're not answering the question.  What is your explanation for the Reaper leader being able to do this?  Mind-reading?  Extrapolating dreams?  Why not use a more sympathetic character?  And why use the character who was a fcal point of three dream sequences?

As an aside, saying writers want you to feel something says very little.  Virtually every story is written with the hope of making people feel something in response - that's where the enjoyment comes in.  Saying they're 'forcing' it is little more than loaded language trying to vilify the writers.  The alternative would be to say they failed, but again, if they wanted you to feel sympathy for the character - why make him so arrogant?  Why make Shepard suddenly so weak and suggestive?  You believe Bioware expect us to feel sympathy in these circumstances?  Remember that one of the biggest draws of the ME games is the player's relationship with Shepard (not the Reapers!)

I don't have, need, or want an explanation for the night brite. I just want it gone. It's a crappy idea to begin with. I'm not going to waste my time trying to justify to myself the existence of that crap. It just is.

You're right about emotions.

The flaw though is that BW wants you to feel specific emotions. They want you to feel sad. They want to have you feel goaded into listening to Casper. 

Yes, I believe BW want's us to feel sympathy for the Catalyst. No I don't agree with it. The reason Shepard is so weak and suggestive is because BW doesn't want you to question the Catalyst unnecessarily. As I said, Casey had an idea, grabbed Mac, and they wrote an ending that would justify their 'out-there' style of thinking.

They disregarded the relationship with Shepard, because it was too cliche, too video gamey. They wanted to challenge everyone with what they thought they knew about the franchise.

Casey and Mac genuinely believed that this ending would be met with acclaim. That it would be praised as a landmark twist in gaming. But it's so out of touch with the rest of the narrative of the entire trilogy that it is seen as one of the worst in recent memory.

[Wayning_Star]

probably the same reason Avina looks like an asari..

don't read so much into the idea that the catalyst is up to 'no good' just because it appears as a child in sheps mind...or assumes as much. Sheps dreams are the link to the advanced techology in sentient form/function. The "physical" intelligence. Remember, the catalyst is a Leviathan device. Ask yourself, why did the Leviathan pose as characters Shep had met?

[Wayning_Star]

fiendishchicken wrote...

Davik Kang wrote...

But you're not answering the question.  What is your explanation for the Reaper leader being able to do this?  Mind-reading?  Extrapolating dreams?  Why not use a more sympathetic character?  And why use the character who was a fcal point of three dream sequences?

As an aside, saying writers want you to feel something says very little.  Virtually every story is written with the hope of making people feel something in response - that's where the enjoyment comes in.  Saying they're 'forcing' it is little more than loaded language trying to vilify the writers.  The alternative would be to say they failed, but again, if they wanted you to feel sympathy for the character - why make him so arrogant?  Why make Shepard suddenly so weak and suggestive?  You believe Bioware expect us to feel sympathy in these circumstances?  Remember that one of the biggest draws of the ME games is the player's relationship with Shepard (not the Reapers!)

I don't have, need, or want an explanation for the night brite. I just want it gone. It's a crappy idea to begin with. I'm not going to waste my time trying to justify to myself the existence of that crap. It just is.

You're right about emotions.

The flaw though is that BW wants you to feel specific emotions. They want you to feel sad. They want to have you feel goaded into listening to Casper. 

Yes, I believe BW want's us to feel sympathy for the Catalyst. No I don't agree with it. The reason Shepard is so weak and suggestive is because BW doesn't want you to question the Catalyst unnecessarily. As I said, Casey had an idea, grabbed Mac, and they wrote an ending that would justify their 'out-there' style of thinking.

They disregarded the relationship with Shepard, because it was too cliche, too video gamey. They wanted to challenge everyone with what they thought they knew about the franchise.

Casey and Mac genuinely believed that this ending would be met with acclaim. That it would be praised as a landmark twist in gaming. But it's so out of touch with the rest of the narrative of the entire trilogy that it is seen as one of the worst in recent memory.

nah, you're just opinionated for recs on the BSN..kind of boring really..

[dreamgazer]

The Catalyst jacked into Shepard's mind and pulled out a visage that would attempt to manipulate the decision-making process, the form of a "faceless" innocent whom represents the beginning of needless death---not just of humanity, but everyone---caused by the Reapers' harvest.

Whether that's an indication of indoctrination / "the work of the devil" or a nudge in the right direction from a benevolent force is where the problem arises (and continues to arise) in the overarching interpretation.

[EpicBoot2daFace]

It is not a thing you can comprehend.

[Wayning_Star]

dreamgazer wrote...

The Catalyst jacked into Shepard's mind and pulled out a visage that would attempt to manipulate the decision-making process, the form of a "faceless" innocent whom represents the beginning of needless death---not just of humanity, but everyone---caused by the Reapers' harvest.

Whether that's an indication of indoctrination / "the work of the devil" or a nudge in the right direction from a benevolent force is where the problem arises (and continues to arise) in the overarching interpretation.

could be, but we're putting intent/thoughts into the catalysts' mind/operating system?

[Obadiah]

The Reapers reading Shep's mind to create a sympathetic interface, or the Shep's mind creating the image (sort of hallucinating the interface) to process the Catalyst's mental communications are a couple of reasons I've seen given.

Another reason that I haven't seen voiced much is that the dreams are just subliminal precognition and strange dramatic coincidence. The Catalyst may have randomly picked some sympathetic image from its database as an interface. Perhaps analysis of its records of the Vancouver invasion showed that Shepard had seen this kid die in the shuttle, and it thought to exploit that (perhaps just to have Shep not attack it on sight).

Shep's dreams may have simply been some sort of premonition of the encounter.

Modifié par Obadiah, 26 janvier 2013 - 05:20 .

[Wayning_Star]

how WOULD an alien communcate with a human anyway? Know any aliens? Please share your experiences..

[Wayning_Star]

Obadiah wrote...

The Reapers reading Shep's mind to create a sympathetic interface, or the Shep's mind creating the image (sort of hallucinating the interface) to process the Catalyst's mental communications are a couple of reasons I've seen given.

Another reason that I haven't seen voiced much is that the dreams are just subliminal precognition and strange dramatic coincidence. The Catalyst may have randomly picked some sympathetic image from its database as an interface. Perhaps analysis of the Vancouver invasion showed that Shepard had seen this kind die in the shuttle, and it thought to exploit that (perhaps just to have Shep not attack it ion sight).

Shep's dreams may have simply been some sort of premonition of the encounter.

I'd guess those nasty beacons were that fur sure.. About blew Sheps mind.

[Wayning_Star]

organic mind meets synthetic mind on mega volts...zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzt

[Davik Kang]

fiendishchicken wrote...
I don't have, need, or want an explanation for the night brite. 

Probably not the thread for you then.

Wayning_Star wrote...

probably the same reason Avina looks like an asari..

don't read so much into the idea that the catalyst is up to 'no good' just because it appears as a child in sheps mind...or assumes as much. Sheps dreams are the link to the advanced techology in sentient form/function. The "physical" intelligence. Remember, the catalyst is a Leviathan device. Ask yourself, why did the Leviathan pose as characters Shep had met?

Avina looks like an Asari because Asari were the first to discover the Citadel and installed (or amended) the VI themselves.  I'm fairly positive that our Earth Child didn't discover the Star Chamber.

This thread isn't about whether the kid is up to no good or not.  It's about why the Kid represents the Reaper Boss.  Forced emotion just won't cut, for reasons described above, unless you mean forced emotions on the part of the Reaper...

[Davik Kang]

Wayning_Star wrote...

how WOULD an alien communcate with a human anyway? Know any aliens? Please share your experiences..

Well, throughout most of Mass Effect, most communicated with humans by talking to them.

Obadiah wrote...

The Reapers reading Shep's mind to create a sympathetic interface, or the Shep's mind creating the image (sort of hallucinating the interface) to process the Catalyst's mental communications are a couple of reasons I've seen given.

Another reason that I haven't seen voiced much is that the dreams are just subliminal precognition and strange dramatic coincidence. The Catalyst may have randomly picked some sympathetic image from its database as an interface. Perhaps analysis of the Vancouver invasion showed that Shepard had seen this kid die in the shuttle, and it thought to exploit that (perhaps just to have Shep not attack it on sight). 

Shep's dreams may have simply been some sort of premonition of the encounter.

Randomly drawing victims images that were apparently taken seems to be taking speculation to the extreme.  Premonition... same problem.  Since when is Shepard subject to premonitions?  Answer - when they were put there, such as after interacting with the Eden Prime Beacon.

[His Name was HYR!!]

 Because Shepard was thinking about "all the people he couldn't save" (what the boy symbolizes) before passing out.

The Catalyst simply modified his AV output to anything familar to the user. Vigil, a malfunctioning VI, did the same on Ilos.

So Shepard sees/hears what he can make sense of -- whatever language he speaks and the images readily in mind.

[DirtyPhoenix]

fiendishchicken wrote...

Because of forced emotions.

BW thinks that the kid really affects Shepard. I felt genuinely sad seeing the kid die. But he just kept appearing.

Now everytime I see him, I'm like 'DIE MOTHER****ER DIE!!'

lololol! That reminds me of Boris from Snatch. Tony keeps shooting and he refuses to die. xD

[Wayning_Star]

Davik Kang wrote...

fiendishchicken wrote...
I don't have, need, or want an explanation for the night brite. 

Probably not the thread for you then.

Wayning_Star wrote...

probably the same reason Avina looks like an asari..

don't read so much into the idea that the catalyst is up to 'no good' just because it appears as a child in sheps mind...or assumes as much. Sheps dreams are the link to the advanced techology in sentient form/function. The "physical" intelligence. Remember, the catalyst is a Leviathan device. Ask yourself, why did the Leviathan pose as characters Shep had met?

Avina looks like an Asari because Asari were the first to discover the Citadel and installed (or amended) the VI themselves.  I'm fairly positive that our Earth Child didn't discover the Star Chamber.

This thread isn't about whether the kid is up to no good or not.  It's about why the Kid represents the Reaper Boss.  Forced emotion just won't cut, for reasons described above, unless you mean forced emotions on the part of the Reaper...

We, as human, force emotion, it's hereditary. Even in the gist of communication, here online,without direct interface as in face to face, we can infer our emotiion and intent without even realizing it and can 'pick that up' just in the way folks post their position.

Why would the "kid" represent the reapers? Its NOT, it's reapresnting US.. why would it do that? For the same reason we post here online about it. To attempt understanding...

[TheRevanchist]

Davik Kang wrote...

Mouton_Alpha wrote...
Yes, that was likely the idea behind Bioware doing this. It was silly and it backfired, probably seriously contributing to people hating Catalyst.

Although once it spoke, I dissociated it from the kid image and proceeded to like it despite how it looked.

But once again, where did thia ability to pull images from Shepard's mind suddenly come from?

And you say it backfired: so you think Bioware wanted us to like the Reaper leader?  To take pity on him?  A being that wants you to befriend the Reapers, or genetically alter all life?  Bear in mind that the Child at the end doesn't ever use emotional expression, and uses a rather arrogant and all-knowing tone with Shepard during the conversation.

Probably because the fans would quickly realize the whole thing is a trap if he sounded like this.

[Davik Kang]

dreamgazer wrote...

The Catalyst jacked into Shepard's mind and pulled out a visage that would attempt to manipulate the decision-making process, the form of a "faceless" innocent whom represents the beginning of needless death---not just of humanity, but everyone---caused by the Reapers' harvest.

Whether that's an indication of indoctrination / "the work of the devil" or a nudge in the right direction from a benevolent force is where the problem arises (and continues to arise) in the overarching interpretation.

Ok... so the most common reasonable explanation coming up so far is that that the Child somehow 'jacked' Shepard's mind by reading it.  And, at the very least, it is at least capable of reporducing images from that mind in Shepard's vision - very similar to what the Leviathan did.

So where do the images stop?  Can we be so sure that the Child is the only such 'image'?  What about 1M1?  What about the image of space battle?  What about the Destroy tube?  Where do the created images end and where does reality start? 

Bear in mind, again, that Shepard is standing in space, and got there via a "magic elevator" that came out of the ground where it wasn't beforehand, and then apparently deposited Shepard in this Star Chamber, yet there's no evidence of it being either in the room we came from or the room we arrive in.

[Wayning_Star]

Davik Kang wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

The Catalyst jacked into Shepard's mind and pulled out a visage that would attempt to manipulate the decision-making process, the form of a "faceless" innocent whom represents the beginning of needless death---not just of humanity, but everyone---caused by the Reapers' harvest.

Whether that's an indication of indoctrination / "the work of the devil" or a nudge in the right direction from a benevolent force is where the problem arises (and continues to arise) in the overarching interpretation.

Ok... so the most common reasonable explanation coming up so far is that that the Child somehow 'jacked' Shepard's mind by reading it.  And, at the very least, it is at least capable of reporducing images from that mind in Shepard's vision - very similar to what the Leviathan did.

So where do the images stop?  Can we be so sure that the Child is the only such 'image'?  What about 1M1?  What about the image of space battle?  What about the Destroy tube?  Where do the created images end and where does reality start? 

Bear in mind, again, that Shepard is standing in space, and got there via a "magic elevator" that came out of the ground where it wasn't beforehand, and then apparently deposited Shepard in this Star Chamber, yet there's no evidence of it being either in the room we came from or the room we arrive in.

there you have it, the mystery. It doesn't matter IF the results are actual,eventhough the actions are cyber.

[Wayning_Star]

the synthetics wonders what and why the organics 'thinks' their reality is more real..

[Davik Kang]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

 Because Shepard was thinking about "all the people he couldn't save" (what the boy symbolizes) before passing out.

The Catalyst simply modified his AV output to anything familar to the user. Vigil, a malfunctioning VI, did the same on Ilos.

So Shepard sees/hears what he can make sense of -- whatever language he speaks and the images readily in mind.

Vigil, representing Protheans, appeared as a Prothean.  ReaperLord, representing Reapers, appears as a human child.

Not at all the same thing.

The thing I am getting at is... why the chosen image (as many are agreeing on, it was an image chosen by the Reaper stripped from Shepard;s mind) is an image specifically from Shepard's dreams

[Mouton_Alpha]

fiendishchicken wrote...

The flaw though is that BW wants you to feel specific emotions. They want you to feel sad. They want to have you feel goaded into listening to Casper.

Yes, I believe BW want's us to feel sympathy for the Catalyst.

I really think that's not it. More probably, they wanted to make it more jarring by linking a friendly face with a cosmic being talking, similar to what they did with Leviathan. Except that Leviathan makes sense because it reads minds - there is nothing to suggest that Catalyst does the same.

fiendishchicken wrote...

No I don't agree with it. The reason Shepard is so weak and suggestive is because BW doesn't want you to question the Catalyst unnecessarily.

It's not like Shepard had many options at that point. And, well, you can always try shooting, heh heh