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[Wayning_Star]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

The worse thing is why does the big bad look like a child the Reapers killed when the big bad is saying the Reapers don't kill but preserve?

I dunno, why did fans state it as 'kill' when harvest represents preservation? As many posts on that subject refer to being harvested/reduced to goo ,not so radom intellect and shelved DNA as murder?

Because if something really wanted to "preserve" us, they wouldn't use giant lasers when they have mind control technology.

Or they wouldn't turn us into goo to be made into a space squid.

None of these are preserving.

I agree, from "our" perspective. But really, we shoot at them first because we don't want to be preserved/harvested..But, that doesn't matter to the intelligence..unfortunately. Probably why the Leviathan wants Shep to destroy the reapers....even permitted Shep to be a useful tool..etc.

[bleetman]

Wayning_Star wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

The worse thing is why does the big bad look like a child the Reapers killed when the big bad is saying the Reapers don't kill but preserve?

I dunno, why did fans state it as 'kill' when harvest represents preservation?

Oh, don't repeat that drivel. Even if I were willing to accept that what the Reapers do should be considered 'preservation' - which I'm not, for more reasons than I care to go into - how does this apply to the vent kid? The one the Catalyst is specifically imitating?



This is not harvesting. This is not preservation.

This is blowing things up with lasers.

Modifié par bleetman, 26 janvier 2013 - 07:45 .

[Ticonderoga117]

Wayning_Star wrote...
I agree, from "our" perspective. But really, we shoot at them first because we don't want to be preserved/harvested..But, that doesn't matter to the intelligence..unfortunately. Probably why the Leviathan wants Shep to destroy the reapers....even permitted Shep to be a useful tool..etc.

And that matters why? Apparently we can't scratch the paint, so why not turn up the mind control until the sweet sweet embrace of indoctrination occurs, and then turn it down and make everyone do your bidding?

[Ticonderoga117]

bleetman wrote...




This is not harvesting. This is not preservation.

This is blowing things with up lasers.

Completely off topic: I now actively cheer when I see that scene. Stupid kid, serves you right.

[Davik Kang]

Mr.House wrote...

The worse thing is why does the big bad look like a child the Reapers killed when the big bad is saying the Reapers don't kill but preserve?

Why indeed?  He appeals to the sense of saving innocent lives, yet appears as someone who's innocent life was taken by those very same.  We've decided that ReaperLord wants to appeal to a softer, more sympathetic side of Shepard... could he also be using an insidious method of causing fear?

Scaring Saren was easy enough, as he discovered an ancient race of machine devils before anyone had heard of them.  Scaring TIM was similarly simple, though he resisted enough (at least he thought so) to continue to conspire against them.  Terrifying these two was enough to turn them to a more malleable way of thinking.

But scaring Shepard?  In ME2 it demonstrably failed, despite Harbinger's constant efforts at mocking Shepard's  feeble efforts to stop him.  So in ME3, what good appearing as a giant devil-Reaper, saying "DO AS I SAY MORTAL DON'T PRESS DESTROY SWITCH PLS"?  No good at all.  But the visual of the innocent dead reminds us of those we cannot save, and perhaps frightens Shepard into wanting to save more, no matter the cost.  Perhaps.

But still... the fact stands that he does represent those who died at the Reaper's hands / tentacles.  Still convinced that Bioware wanted us to buddy up with this guy?  To feel his pain and accept his word?

[JBPBRC]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

bleetman wrote...




This is not harvesting. This is not preservation.

This is blowing things with up lasers.

Completely off topic: I now actively cheer when I see that scene. Stupid kid, serves you right.

This scene always does put a smile on my face, I must admit.

[Davik Kang]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...
Because if something really wanted to "preserve" us, they wouldn't use giant lasers when they have mind control technology. 

Or they wouldn't turn us into goo to be made into a space squid.

None of these are preserving.

Correct.

Ticonderoga117 wrote...
Because symbolism. That's it. For some awful reason, the writers really wanted to use a lot of symbolism in ME3, even though it wouldn't quite fit with what they had going. The kid is the worst example of this in my opinion.

Incorrect.

[Wayning_Star]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...
I agree, from "our" perspective. But really, we shoot at them first because we don't want to be preserved/harvested..But, that doesn't matter to the intelligence..unfortunately. Probably why the Leviathan wants Shep to destroy the reapers....even permitted Shep to be a useful tool..etc.

And that matters why? Apparently we can't scratch the paint, so why not turn up the mind control until the sweet sweet embrace of indoctrination occurs, and then turn it down and make everyone do your bidding?

because the Leviathan hasn't given you permission yet..if ever.

[Wayning_Star]

Davik Kang wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

The worse thing is why does the big bad look like a child the Reapers killed when the big bad is saying the Reapers don't kill but preserve?

Why indeed?  He appeals to the sense of saving innocent lives, yet appears as someone who's innocent life was taken by those very same.  We've decided that ReaperLord wants to appeal to a softer, more sympathetic side of Shepard... could he also be using an insidious method of causing fear?

Scaring Saren was easy enough, as he discovered an ancient race of machine devils before anyone had heard of them.  Scaring TIM was similarly simple, though he resisted enough (at least he thought so) to continue to conspire against them.  Terrifying these two was enough to turn them to a more malleable way of thinking.

But scaring Shepard?  In ME2 it demonstrably failed, despite Harbinger's constant efforts at mocking Shepard's  feeble efforts to stop him.  So in ME3, what good appearing as a giant devil-Reaper, saying "DO AS I SAY MORTAL DON'T PRESS DESTROY SWITCH PLS"?  No good at all.  But the visual of the innocent dead reminds us of those we cannot save, and perhaps frightens Shepard into wanting to save more, no matter the cost.  Perhaps.

But still... the fact stands that he does represent those who died at the Reaper's hands / tentacles.  Still convinced that Bioware wanted us to buddy up with this guy?  To feel his pain and accept his word?

lol, the IT is raising an ugly head on the BSN again..

[Davik Kang]

Mouton_Alpha wrote...
*Cough* Shepard/Legion/Jesus *Cough*

I would suggest that the ReaperBoss wants you to believe that Shepard is some kind of Messiah, when, of course, she is not...

[bleetman]

Davik Kang wrote...

But still... the fact stands that he does represent those who died at the Reaper's hands / tentacles.  Still convinced that Bioware wanted us to buddy up with this guy?  To feel his pain and accept his word?

Considering that the original ending required us to do just that, I'm assuming so, yes.

[Wayning_Star]

Davik Kang wrote...

Mouton_Alpha wrote...
*Cough* Shepard/Legion/Jesus *Cough*

I would suggest that the ReaperBoss wants you to believe that Shepard is some kind of Messiah, when, of course, she is not...

the stargazer compliments Shep as 'The Shepard'.. kind of funny really.

[Wayning_Star]

bleetman wrote...

Davik Kang wrote...

But still... the fact stands that he does represent those who died at the Reaper's hands / tentacles.  Still convinced that Bioware wanted us to buddy up with this guy?  To feel his pain and accept his word?

Considering that the original ending required us to do just that, I'm assuming so, yes.

the designers of the crucible and author of the choices menu is actually the Messiah, if any.

[Ticonderoga117]

Davik Kang wrote...

Ticonderoga117 wrote...
Because symbolism. That's it. For some awful reason, the writers really wanted to use a lot of symbolism in ME3, even though it wouldn't quite fit with what they had going. The kid is the worst example of this in my opinion.

Incorrect.

Well do you have a better idea? Here's why I think symbolism is the reason why.

Prior to ME3, my Shepard has seen a LOT of scarey and troubling things and never once broke down:

As a spacer my Shepard got pretty scared from Thresher Maws. Then we had husks. Then we had giant space bugs. Then we had giant sentient starships that want to kill us all. Then we had the horror of seeing what happened to Saren. Then he died. Then he came back. Then different space bugs show up and abduct a lot of people. Then his LI from ME1 (ash) is a giant jerk. Then his entire crew gets abducted. Then he sees a colonist get turned to goo. Then he finds out said goo makes a Reaper. Then he gets hit by Object Rho. Then he has to kill 300,000 Batarians to keep the goo guys from attacking the Galaxy right now.

Now, after all of this, a single kid who didn't WANT TO BE SAVED dies... and my Shepard breaks down?! What?!
Then when other close buddies die, the kid still takes center freakin' stage?! No! This is blantant symbolism if there ever was any. Hell, it says so in the art book!

[Wayning_Star]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

Davik Kang wrote...

Ticonderoga117 wrote...
Because symbolism. That's it. For some awful reason, the writers really wanted to use a lot of symbolism in ME3, even though it wouldn't quite fit with what they had going. The kid is the worst example of this in my opinion.

Incorrect.

Well do you have a better idea? Here's why I think symbolism is the reason why.

Prior to ME3, my Shepard has seen a LOT of scarey and troubling things and never once broke down:

As a spacer my Shepard got pretty scared from Thresher Maws. Then we had husks. Then we had giant space bugs. Then we had giant sentient starships that want to kill us all. Then we had the horror of seeing what happened to Saren. Then he died. Then he came back. Then different space bugs show up and abduct a lot of people. Then his LI from ME1 (ash) is a giant jerk. Then his entire crew gets abducted. Then he sees a colonist get turned to goo. Then he finds out said goo makes a Reaper. Then he gets hit by Object Rho. Then he has to kill 300,000 Batarians to keep the goo guys from attacking the Galaxy right now.

Now, after all of this, a single kid who didn't WANT TO BE SAVED dies... and my Shepard breaks down?! What?!
Then when other close buddies die, the kid still takes center freakin' stage?! No! This is blantant symbolism if there ever was any. Hell, it says so in the art book!

where's Leviathan in there? I couldn't figure it out from the descriptors?

I never go with the extra game stuff, books mini movies(clearly confusing that one) nor did I use a guidbook either..I probably missed some important metagaming tags that way tho..

[Davik Kang]

Wayning_Star wrote...

lol, the IT is raising an ugly head on the BSN again..

Well, we're talking about the appearance of the Child being at least potentially indicative of some kind of mental manipulation occuring on Shepard by the Reapers.  We're talking about a protagonist from three Dreams appearing a fourth time, in an environment that, objectively, makes no sense.  We're talking about the opportunity to end the war being obstructed by a plea from the Leader of the Reapers suggesting that there are alternatives so simple heavy-handed destruction, all the while appealing to Shepard's sense of guilt and remorse.

This isn't so much a focus on IT as it is a focus on what the possibile explanations for this bizarre final scene are.  No-one has yet commented on the dream-like nature of the other objects that appear in the Chamber that I've mentioned.  And no-one has remarked upon the 'coincedence' that the focal point of our three dreams, which were paced within the narrative to happen at crucial moments in the story arc, now appears in a final scene with these dream-like elements that otherwise seems to be not wholly sensical... perhaps you could say "unrealistic".

[Mouton_Alpha]

Davik Kang wrote...
Still convinced that Bioware wanted us to buddy up with this guy?  To feel his pain and accept his word?

I said i before, it is not about empathy, it is about making him symbolic and otherworldly by linking characteristics of starkly different beings. Creating this kind of dissonance is not exatcly new or original - see demons talking through possessed children or taking the form of people we care about. I could swear there were some AIs presented as children by I cannot remember at this point.

I also said before that it makes no sense in this particular context, as there are no established means of how Catalyst would even know of Shepards supposed emotional connection to that kid.

[Davik Kang]

bleetman wrote...

Davik Kang wrote...

But still... the fact stands that he does represent those who died at the Reaper's hands / tentacles.  Still convinced that Bioware wanted us to buddy up with this guy?  To feel his pain and accept his word?

Considering that the original ending required us to do just that, I'm assuming so, yes.

The original ending required you to do nothing of the sort.  It merely asked you to make a choice.  The Child didn't make the choice for you, though you may be inclined to think that he did.

The amazing thing is how so many players recogise the narrative ... not so much dissonance as complete counterpoint with what the ReaperKid says and what the entirety of ME1-3 otherwise said - and yet somehow still believe that Bioware wanted you to take the Kid at face value.  As if they wanted to undo all their work with one botched scene.  

Take a deep breath and ask yourself... really?

[Wayning_Star]

Davik Kang wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

lol, the IT is raising an ugly head on the BSN again..

Well, we're talking about the appearance of the Child being at least potentially indicative of some kind of mental manipulation occuring on Shepard by the Reapers.  We're talking about a protagonist from three Dreams appearing a fourth time, in an environment that, objectively, makes no sense.  We're talking about the opportunity to end the war being obstructed by a plea from the Leader of the Reapers suggesting that there are alternatives so simple heavy-handed destruction, all the while appealing to Shepard's sense of guilt and remorse.

This isn't so much a focus on IT as it is a focus on what the possibile explanations for this bizarre final scene are.  No-one has yet commented on the dream-like nature of the other objects that appear in the Chamber that I've mentioned.  And no-one has remarked upon the 'coincedence' that the focal point of our three dreams, which were paced within the narrative to happen at crucial moments in the story arc, now appears in a final scene with these dream-like elements that otherwise seems to be not wholly sensical... perhaps you could say "unrealistic".

actually, to me, it all makes perfect sense,eventhough 'shaded' in mystery. You have to scope out the mysterious and lengthy 'what ifs' and rely on the realtime adventure.

enemy one: reaperships via the catalyst

enemy two: their creator

who's still kicking it when the choices are finally realized?

the imaginary friend catalyst or the pesky domineering Leviathan,who started the ball rolling to preserve thralls..

the catalsyt preserves stuff, albeit nasty and unseemingly natural..to a super computer..built by none other than the other dominant race of organics who actually, en mass, OWN the MEU..lol

edit: we'll call it the forest for the trees theory

Modifié par Wayning_Star, 26 janvier 2013 - 08:08 .

[Codename_Code]

Davik Kang wrote...

Codename_Code wrote...
Is a damn reaper in shepards mind trying to look innocent to manipulate you into his preferable options. Cant be any more clear.

Yes.  But how and why?  Explanations to the 'how' and 'why' become increasingly speculative, unless you consider one simple possible situation regarding the final scene...

"How" was answered in Leviathan DLC. After they get into the subjects mind, they ( leviathans/reapers) use images and memories from this mind to construct a communication bridge. And if the space kid is build with the same method leviathan used, Shepard is not physically there.

"Why" : Manipulation. A disguise to inspire innocence.  Reapers obviously know that Shepard is dreaming about this kid, the kid may even be reaper induced. Notice that Shepard is never shocked about the kid, and never asks about it " who are you ?" instead of " you ?, what are you doing here?, you are dead" and then, when the kid reveals himself as the catalyst Shepard wont ask " why you look like the earth kid ?" this denotes an absolute domination of reaper control on Shepard mind. In the leviathan conversation, Shepard is strong and she immediately asks when the fake Ann appears" Ann?, whats happening?", Leviathans then proceed to talk with their natural voice, given their intentions are direct. Reaper kid is hiding something, since his natural menacing voice is not revealed.

And all his contradictions, have you ever exposed a liar ?, they always fail with the details.

[Ticonderoga117]

Wayning_Star wrote...
where's Leviathan in there? I couldn't figure it out from the descriptors?

I never go with the extra game stuff, books mini movies(clearly confusing that one) nor did I use a guidbook either..I probably missed some important metagaming tags that way tho..

Leivathan wasn't included since all of that was from before ME3. It mainly delt with ME1, ME2, and Arrival. Which means I missed Project Overlord and LotSB.

[Wayning_Star]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...
where's Leviathan in there? I couldn't figure it out from the descriptors?

I never go with the extra game stuff, books mini movies(clearly confusing that one) nor did I use a guidbook either..I probably missed some important metagaming tags that way tho..

Leivathan wasn't included since all of that was from before ME3. It mainly delt with ME1, ME2, and Arrival. Which means I missed Project Overlord and LotSB.

that's a bummer Tico, those were really pretty good..as mini stories if nothing else.

[Davik Kang]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

Well do you have a better idea?

Yes, and all my posts in this thread are dedicated to that idea, if you would read them.

Ticonderoga117 wrote...
Here's why I think symbolism is the reason why.

Prior to ME3, my Shepard has seen a LOT of scarey and troubling things and never once broke down:

As a spacer my Shepard got pretty scared from Thresher Maws. Then we had husks. Then we had giant space bugs. Then we had giant sentient starships that want to kill us all. Then we had the horror of seeing what happened to Saren. Then he died. Then he came back. Then different space bugs show up and abduct a lot of people. Then his LI from ME1 (ash) is a giant jerk. Then his entire crew gets abducted. Then he sees a colonist get turned to goo. Then he finds out said goo makes a Reaper. Then he gets hit by Object Rho. Then he has to kill 300,000 Batarians to keep the goo guys from attacking the Galaxy right now.

Now, after all of this, a single kid who didn't WANT TO BE SAVED dies... and my Shepard breaks down?! What?!
Then when other close buddies die, the kid still takes center freakin' stage?! No! This is blantant symbolism if there ever was any. Hell, it says so in the art book!

First off - Shepard's psychological trauma is at the very heart of ME3.  If you start a new game but don't upload your old characters, you have to build a new profile for Shepard, which includes a question about the mental effects of the Virmire situation.  There are only 3 questions, the others being the standard Spacer/Colonist etc. questions from previous games.  So right from the very beginning, they are highlighting for new players the importance of psychologically scarring events from previous games, while assuming that continuing players will probably remember that.

Now I am no psychologist, but how exactly these kinds of pressures and traumas such as Shepard has endured over the years - including of course death and resurrection - I really cannot say.  Can you say?  Are you really so sure that a terrified, hopeless child would not haunt Shepard's dreams?  You say so, Bioware disagree, and considering they wrote the character, I'll go along with them for now.

Now how you go on to say this is 'blatant symbolism' - I'll have to concede that I really don't know what you're talking about.  Symbolic things happen, and appear, in films, as well as books, television shows, political broadcasts, and computer games - and no doubt the Kid is symbolic of something or even many things.  But what does this have to do with the Reaper Master appearing in the ghostly holographic form of that same dead child?  This is really the point.  "Err, symbolism of course..."  won't do.

Straightforward, ham-fisted symbolism might have been seeing a vision of the Kid playing in a sunny field, all happy and so forth, maybe even a replay of the opening scene with him playing with the toy.  But that's not what we got.  We got the ReaperLord talking through the image of that boy, in a scene which apparently, according to many, is meant to be taken at face value - as a final scene grounded in reality.  But the final scene is far from grounded in reality.  And what's more, Bioware went out of their way to insert clues that it's not grounded in reality.

To say it's "symbolism" or "failed symbolism" doesn't come close to explaining the specific choices that were made for this final scene.  Some may think the execution failed, but let's at least be clear in what everybody thinks they were trying to achieve.

[Wayning_Star]

Codename_Code wrote...

Davik Kang wrote...

Codename_Code wrote...
Is a damn reaper in shepards mind trying to look innocent to manipulate you into his preferable options. Cant be any more clear.

Yes.  But how and why?  Explanations to the 'how' and 'why' become increasingly speculative, unless you consider one simple possible situation regarding the final scene...

"How" was answered in Leviathan DLC. After they get into the subjects mind, they ( leviathans/reapers) use images and memories from this mind to construct a communication bridge. And if the space kid is build with the same method leviathan used, Shepard is not physically there.

"Why" : Manipulation. A disguise to inspire innocence.  Reapers obviously know that Shepard is dreaming about this kid, the kid may even be reaper induced. Notice that Shepard is never shocked about the kid, and never asks about it " who are you ?" instead of " you ?, what are you doing here?, you are dead" and then, when the kid reveals himself as the catalyst Shepard wont ask " why you look like the earth kid ?" this denotes an absolute domination of reaper control on Shepard mind. In the leviathan conversation, Shepard is strong and she immediately asks when the fake Ann appears" Ann?, whats happening?", Leviathans then proceed to talk with their natural voice, given their intentions are direct. Reaper kid is hiding something, since his natural menacing voice is not revealed.

And all his contradictions, have you ever exposed a liar ?, they always fail with the details.

with whats at stake during the interlude with an advanced Ai, would anyone ask why about what its wearing? Casual or Formal wear..sheesh..