230 réponses à ce sujet

[Davik Kang]

Codename_Code wrote...
"How" was answered in Leviathan DLC. After they get into the subjects mind, they ( leviathans/reapers) use images and memories from this mind to construct a communication bridge. And if the space kid is build with the same method leviathan used, Shepard is not physically there.

"Why" : Manipulation. A disguise to inspire innocence.  Reapers obviously know that Shepard is dreaming about this kid, the kid may even be reaper induced. Notice that Shepard is never shocked about the kid, and never asks about it " who are you ?" instead of " you ?, what are you doing here?, you are dead" and then, when the kid reveals himself as the catalyst Shepard wont ask " why you look like the earth kid ?" this denotes an absolute domination of reaper control on Shepard mind. In the leviathan conversation, Shepard is strong and she immediately asks when the fake Ann appears" Ann?, whats happening?", Leviathans then proceed to talk with their natural voice, given their intentions are direct. Reaper kid is hiding something, since his natural menacing voice is not revealed.

And all his contradictions, have you ever exposed a liar ?, they always fail with the details.

Indeed.

[AlanC9]

Wow... I didn't realize how much I missed having an IT thread.

[Ticonderoga117]

Wayning_Star wrote...
that's a bummer Tico, those were really pretty good..as mini stories if nothing else.

Well it was all from the hip and so I missed a few. *shrug* The point still stands that before ME3, Shepard as a whole, has encountered a lot of crap and never once missed a step. Then ME3 and suddenly that kid!

[GreyLycanTrope]

Davik Kang wrote...
The original ending required you to do nothing of the sort.  It merely asked you to make a choice.  The Child didn't make the choice for you, though you may be inclined to think that he did.

The amazing thing is how so many players recogise the narrative ... not so much dissonance as complete counterpoint with what the ReaperKid says and what the entirety of ME1-3 otherwise said - and yet somehow still believe that Bioware wanted you to take the Kid at face value.  As if they wanted to undo all their work with one botched scene.  

Take a deep breath and ask yourself... really?

Considering they were suprised at our reaction, yes really, they didn't realize it was botched.

AlanC9 wrote...

Wow... I didn't realize how much I missed having an IT thread.

Shooting themselves in the foot seems to be a trend these past few months IMO.

[Ticonderoga117]

Davik Kang wrote...
First off - Shepard's psychological trauma is at the very heart of ME3.  If you start a new game but don't upload your old characters, you have to build a new profile for Shepard, which includes a question about the mental effects of the Virmire situation.  There are only 3 questions, the others being the standard Spacer/Colonist etc. questions from previous games.  So right from the very beginning, they are highlighting for new players the importance of psychologically scarring events from previous games, while assuming that continuing players will probably remember that.

Now I am no psychologist, but how exactly these kinds of pressures and traumas such as Shepard has endured over the years - including of course death and resurrection - I really cannot say.  Can you say?  Are you really so sure that a terrified, hopeless child would not haunt Shepard's dreams?  You say so, Bioware disagree, and considering they wrote the character, I'll go along with them for now.

Now how you go on to say this is 'blatant symbolism' - I'll have to concede that I really don't know what you're talking about.  Symbolic things happen, and appear, in films, as well as books, television shows, political broadcasts, and computer games - and no doubt the Kid is symbolic of something or even many things.  But what does this have to do with the Reaper Master appearing in the ghostly holographic form of that same dead child?  This is really the point.  "Err, symbolism of course..."  won't do.

Straightforward, ham-fisted symbolism might have been seeing a vision of the Kid playing in a sunny field, all happy and so forth, maybe even a replay of the opening scene with him playing with the toy.  But that's not what we got.  We got the ReaperLord talking through the image of that boy, in a scene which apparently, according to many, is meant to be taken at face value - as a final scene grounded in reality.  But the final scene is far from grounded in reality.  And what's more, Bioware went out of their way to insert clues that it's not grounded in reality.

To say it's "symbolism" or "failed symbolism" doesn't come close to explaining the specific choices that were made for this final scene.  Some may think the execution failed, but let's at least be clear in what everybody thinks they were trying to achieve.

Sure, ok, mental scarring is the big thing in ME3. Ok, but they completely missed the mark on what to focus on or its execution.

Let's talk execution first. Earth is under attack. Ok, cool. However, there's a problem: No one cares about Earth! Or should I say: No one cares about the Earth portrayed in ME3. Our only experiance with Earth is these first few minutes before the sky falls. The player does not care. Hell, Shepard doesn't really care for 2/3 backgrounds. Why was the Normandy destruction scene so powerful from ME2? Because we got to know some of those who died (Pressley) and we spent an entire game riding around in the Normandy. There's a connection there. Ir BioWare really wanted to make this whole "Earth under seige" thing work, we needed a lot more of Earth to make it happen.

Now, focus. That kid? We only see him for like 5 minutes in total. Don't care about him. Especially since no matter what we choose, he refuses help, then dies. Then you get to a scene like Thane's. Now, looking back at how he died, I call BS, but the scene in the hospital? I still get something in my eye every. Single. Time. And yet, once we move on and have a dream sequence... the kid still takes the spot light? Um... I don't care. A lot of people, don't care. Sure, having Thane in the background saying spooky lines is nice... but the kid still takes position number one?

This leads into the blatant symbolism. Every. Single. Dream has him being the focus. Not Mordin. Not Thane. Not Legion. Not Kaiden. This kid. You ask "But what does this have to do with the Reaper Master appearing in the ghostly holographic form of that same dead child?" I say, well BioWare made this choice, and since there's no reason why it should in the first place, someone tried a bit too hard to force the image down our throats.

Now to Shepard's state of mind and why I think the Kid is a horrible thing to dwell on. By this time in the story, we've had to loose at least one character by our own active choice. For me, that was Kaiden. Through my own actions, and Shepard's, we got him killed. Through our choices, Shepard had Lilith (I think) killed on the Collector Base. Yet this kid, who niether I nor Shepard relates with get's himself killed, and yet Shepard is now mentally scarred by this? Nevermind the fact that his fate was relatively an easy way to go. One second here, next gone.

All I'm trying to say is, that as it stands, that kid is the worse thing to have our Shepards focus on as a tragic figure.

[Wayning_Star]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...
that's a bummer Tico, those were really pretty good..as mini stories if nothing else.

Well it was all from the hip and so I missed a few. *shrug* The point still stands that before ME3, Shepard as a whole, has encountered a lot of crap and never once missed a step. Then ME3 and suddenly that kid!

you know when I first saw the "kid" as the reaper boss and catalyst, I thought.. cool a mini me. But after more playthroughs and futher reflection, it still comes at me as a mini me. I wasn't all that about the kid being in the final scenes. Actually  I didn't really react to it at all, especially something to address deception or overshadows of some alterior motive of the catalyst. Just a simplistic stage prop really. After the the kid shows in the beginning of ME3 then in the dream scapes and finally at the end. I didn't even have a first clue as to any 'manipulative' qualities of the presentation. The catalyst always came at me as a straight shooter, that is by programming not intent. We all knew it's intent, to harvest. The mind fryer was the crucible, friggen thing and not well enough explained..ever. Just there for the choices, who ever thought those up?

[Ticonderoga117]

AlanC9 wrote...

Wow... I didn't realize how much I missed having an IT thread.

Shhh! Mentioning it brings about the lock!

[Davik Kang]

Greylycantrope wrote...
Considering they were suprised at our reaction, yes really, they didn't realize it was botched.

Their reaction is to the reception oif the ending.  You're either intentionally avoiding the point, or somehow completely missing it.

You, like everyone else, can see the contradiction in the entire ME 1-3 narrative and what the Kid says, yet you think that Bioware didn't notice?

To reiterate: you actually think that they didn't realise that the whole story of ME1-3, which had a number of well-constructed recurring themes which generally had together at all times throughout, was completely at odds with the ending they created to their 9-year blockbuster project?

[Wayning_Star]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

Davik Kang wrote...
First off - Shepard's psychological trauma is at the very heart of ME3.  If you start a new game but don't upload your old characters, you have to build a new profile for Shepard, which includes a question about the mental effects of the Virmire situation.  There are only 3 questions, the others being the standard Spacer/Colonist etc. questions from previous games.  So right from the very beginning, they are highlighting for new players the importance of psychologically scarring events from previous games, while assuming that continuing players will probably remember that.

Now I am no psychologist, but how exactly these kinds of pressures and traumas such as Shepard has endured over the years - including of course death and resurrection - I really cannot say.  Can you say?  Are you really so sure that a terrified, hopeless child would not haunt Shepard's dreams?  You say so, Bioware disagree, and considering they wrote the character, I'll go along with them for now.

Now how you go on to say this is 'blatant symbolism' - I'll have to concede that I really don't know what you're talking about.  Symbolic things happen, and appear, in films, as well as books, television shows, political broadcasts, and computer games - and no doubt the Kid is symbolic of something or even many things.  But what does this have to do with the Reaper Master appearing in the ghostly holographic form of that same dead child?  This is really the point.  "Err, symbolism of course..."  won't do.

Straightforward, ham-fisted symbolism might have been seeing a vision of the Kid playing in a sunny field, all happy and so forth, maybe even a replay of the opening scene with him playing with the toy.  But that's not what we got.  We got the ReaperLord talking through the image of that boy, in a scene which apparently, according to many, is meant to be taken at face value - as a final scene grounded in reality.  But the final scene is far from grounded in reality.  And what's more, Bioware went out of their way to insert clues that it's not grounded in reality.

To say it's "symbolism" or "failed symbolism" doesn't come close to explaining the specific choices that were made for this final scene.  Some may think the execution failed, but let's at least be clear in what everybody thinks they were trying to achieve.

Sure, ok, mental scarring is the big thing in ME3. Ok, but they completely missed the mark on what to focus on or its execution.

Let's talk execution first. Earth is under attack. Ok, cool. However, there's a problem: No one cares about Earth! Or should I say: No one cares about the Earth portrayed in ME3. Our only experiance with Earth is these first few minutes before the sky falls. The player does not care. Hell, Shepard doesn't really care for 2/3 backgrounds. Why was the Normandy destruction scene so powerful from ME2? Because we got to know some of those who died (Pressley) and we spent an entire game riding around in the Normandy. There's a connection there. Ir BioWare really wanted to make this whole "Earth under seige" thing work, we needed a lot more of Earth to make it happen.

Now, focus. That kid? We only see him for like 5 minutes in total. Don't care about him. Especially since no matter what we choose, he refuses help, then dies. Then you get to a scene like Thane's. Now, looking back at how he died, I call BS, but the scene in the hospital? I still get something in my eye every. Single. Time. And yet, once we move on and have a dream sequence... the kid still takes the spot light? Um... I don't care. A lot of people, don't care. Sure, having Thane in the background saying spooky lines is nice... but the kid still takes position number one?

This leads into the blatant symbolism. Every. Single. Dream has him being the focus. Not Mordin. Not Thane. Not Legion. Not Kaiden. This kid. You ask "But what does this have to do with the Reaper Master appearing in the ghostly holographic form of that same dead child?" I say, well BioWare made this choice, and since there's no reason why it should in the first place, someone tried a bit too hard to force the image down our throats.

Now to Shepard's state of mind and why I think the Kid is a horrible thing to dwell on. By this time in the story, we've had to loose at least one character by our own active choice. For me, that was Kaiden. Through my own actions, and Shepard's, we got him killed. Through our choices, Shepard had Lilith (I think) killed on the Collector Base. Yet this kid, who niether I nor Shepard relates with get's himself killed, and yet Shepard is now mentally scarred by this? Nevermind the fact that his fate was relatively an easy way to go. One second here, next gone.

All I'm trying to say is, that as it stands, that kid is the worse thing to have our Shepards focus on as a tragic figure.

but like they say in the movies: Wheres the body... I don't think the kid was killed off for some weird reason. I'd have to see it for sure, not assume so because that shuttle blew up. Maybe the kid was always the catalyst, just out scoping the terrain, taking a more forward position. After all, the end game was nie and the catalyst could've been invoked, as the reapers attack Shep home world..be enough to wake it up off stand by...

edit: had to enter "Wake up Catalyst!"

Modifié par Wayning_Star, 26 janvier 2013 - 09:00 .

[AlanC9]

Greylycantrope wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Wow... I didn't realize how much I missed having an IT thread.

Shooting themselves in the foot seems to be a trend these past few months IMO.

Indeed. The old thread was a perfectly good roach motel. I have no idea why they closed it.

[Wayning_Star]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Wow... I didn't realize how much I missed having an IT thread.

Shhh! Mentioning it brings about the lock!

I can feel NS's tenicles expanding as we type...

[Ticonderoga117]

Wayning_Star wrote...
but like they say in the movies: Wheres the body... I don't think the kid was killed off for some weird reason. I'd have to see it for sure, not assume so because that shuttle blew up. Maybe the kid was always the catalyst, just out scoping the terrain, taking a more forward position. After all, the end game was nie and the catalyst could've been invoked, as the reapers attack Shep home world..be enough to wake it up off stand by...

edit: had to enter "Wake up Catalyst!"

While there is the occasional hint of indoctrination afoot, there's nothing to follow up on. Everything is played straight. Kid actually existed and died.

[AlanC9]

Wayning_Star wrote...

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Wow... I didn't realize how much I missed having an IT thread.

Shhh! Mentioning it brings about the lock!

I can feel NS's tenicles expanding as we type...

Sorry if I screwed this one up, guys.

[Sebby]

AlanC9 wrote...

Greylycantrope wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Wow... I didn't realize how much I missed having an IT thread.

Shooting themselves in the foot seems to be a trend these past few months IMO.

Indeed. The old thread was a perfectly good roach motel. I have no idea why they closed it.

Like with the romance forum, they realized the amount of damage the ITers were doing to their brand and it had already served it's purpose of deflecting criticism. This "IT" nonsense was potentially spreading misinformation about the story and choices to BSN or series newcommers.

[Wayning_Star]

Davik Kang wrote...

Greylycantrope wrote...
Considering they were suprised at our reaction, yes really, they didn't realize it was botched.

Their reaction is to the reception oif the ending.  You're either intentionally avoiding the point, or somehow completely missing it.

You, like everyone else, can see the contradiction in the entire ME 1-3 narrative and what the Kid says, yet you think that Bioware didn't notice?

To reiterate: you actually think that they didn't realise that the whole story of ME1-3, which had a number of well-constructed recurring themes which generally had together at all times throughout, was completely at odds with the ending they created to their 9-year blockbuster project?

thats only correct IF we assume fans are correct.. in all things...ME...lol

the customer is always right! (unless it's tax time

[Davik Kang]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...
Sure, ok, mental scarring is the big thing in ME3. Ok, but they completely missed the mark on what to focus on or its execution. 

Let's talk execution first. Earth is under attack. Ok, cool. However, there's a problem: No one cares about Earth! Or should I say: No one cares about the Earth portrayed in ME3. Our only experiance with Earth is these first few minutes before the sky falls. The player does not care. Hell, Shepard doesn't really care for 2/3 backgrounds. Why was the Normandy destruction scene so powerful from ME2? Because we got to know some of those who died (Pressley) and we spent an entire game riding around in the Normandy. There's a connection there. Ir BioWare really wanted to make this whole "Earth under seige" thing work, we needed a lot more of Earth to make it happen.

Now, focus. That kid? We only see him for like 5 minutes in total. Don't care about him. Especially since no matter what we choose, he refuses help, then dies. Then you get to a scene like Thane's. Now, looking back at how he died, I call BS, but the scene in the hospital? I still get something in my eye every. Single. Time. And yet, once we move on and have a dream sequence... the kid still takes the spot light? Um... I don't care. A lot of people, don't care. Sure, having Thane in the background saying spooky lines is nice... but the kid still takes position number one?

This leads into the blatant symbolism. Every. Single. Dream has him being the focus. Not Mordin. Not Thane. Not Legion. Not Kaiden. This kid. You ask "But what does this have to do with the Reaper Master appearing in the ghostly holographic form of that same dead child?" I say, well BioWare made this choice, and since there's no reason why it should in the first place, someone tried a bit too hard to force the image down our throats.

Now to Shepard's state of mind and why I think the Kid is a horrible thing to dwell on. By this time in the story, we've had to loose at least one character by our own active choice. For me, that was Kaiden. Through my own actions, and Shepard's, we got him killed. Through our choices, Shepard had Lilith (I think) killed on the Collector Base. Yet this kid, who niether I nor Shepard relates with get's himself killed, and yet Shepard is now mentally scarred by this? Nevermind the fact that his fate was relatively an easy way to go. One second here, next gone.

All I'm trying to say is, that as it stands, that kid is the worse thing to have our Shepards focus on as a tragic figure.

Look dude, what I'm saying is that's just not how mental scarring works.  You're saying it works how you want it to work.  You didn't care about Kid, you do care about Kaidan, so you want Kaidan in your dreams.  These dreams aren't about hamfisting pointless emotion into the game - the irony is that the cheesy way of doing just that would've been to have Ash/Kaidan dreams.  They are there to set up the ending, but there are also in-game reasons as to why things happen as they do.

It is symbolic, of course it;s symbolic, many things are in ME and everywhere else, but it's not the level 1 crap symbolism effort that you're trying to claim it is.  Throughout the entire thread I've been explaining this.  It appears that way at first, just as Child appears to be DEM-like when he first presents himself, but both these assumptions are false, and you really don't have to dig very hard to reveal that this is the case.

Modifié par Davik Kang, 26 janvier 2013 - 09:17 .

[Wayning_Star]

AlanC9 wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Wow... I didn't realize how much I missed having an IT thread.

Shhh! Mentioning it brings about the lock!

I can feel NS's tenicles expanding as we type...

Sorry if I screwed this one up, guys.

report for harvest immediately...

[Auld Wulf]

The solution to this 'dilemma' is one I've been harping for a long time, because it's both obvious and logical. The first thing to understand is that storytelling isn't binary unless it's meant for a Saturday morning cartoon, and even then, I've seen some cartoons which are less binary than most triple-A videogames, sadly. Phantom 2040 is a good example. It's actually disappointing that gamers have been conditioned into this 1 versus 0 binary thinking, where Player1 is the good guy, and the Space Alien is the bad guy. And that's as complex as it gets.

You can see this kind of thinking pervading the OP, it reeks of it, it asks why the 'big bad' is a child. As such, the realisation doesn't even occur that the storyline might not be binary. It doesn't comprehend that there might be a power struggle within the reapers. The only reason this isn't obvious is because gamers have become so conditioned into the 'good fights evil, good gets happy ending' nonsense that they can't actually open their minds to anything else. They're just totally locked down, hard-wired, and it's depressing.

What this means is that the average expectation of intelligence within a mainstream videogame is less than of a cartoon like Phantom 2040. Now, sure, Phantom 2040 is an exemplary piece of work, and probably not something I should be using as an example; but there are plenty others out there, and as a medium for adults, I don't think that games should be stuck within a rut of having nothing but the most simple of cartoon plots. The fact of the matter is is that most of the videogames we play are no more mature than the Powerpuff Girls.

And the binary thinking of videogame storytelling is at the core of this.

What it means is that if you have a videogame company who decides to step outside of this pit of mediocrity, elevating themselves above the binary standard (as BioWare has), then you end up with a lot of confused gamers. The reason that the catalyst presents itself as a child is because there's a power struggle within the reapers, the catalyst doesn't agree with everything that's been done; it likely hasn't agreed for milennia, but hasn't been in a position to really change thims. This is where my theory about the catalyst leaking the crucible plans comes from.

See, I think the crucible is nothing more than a security override, it allows the 'first conclusion' to be overridden. The levithans pretty much say that the old machines were programmed in a stupid way, so that they'd come to a conclusion and then act upon it, only the leviathans could override that. Except the old machines turned upon them before they could, thus there was no one around to provide that override. This seemed the best option at the time, because the catalyst felt it could provide more freedom from domination and subjugation (which is what causes synthetic-organic conflicts) by housing people within utopian consensuses that it controlled.

However, over time, it came to other conclusions. But it wasn't in a position to change the 'first conclusion,' and the reapers were programmed to obey the first conclusion. So there was a power-struggle between the reapers and the catalyst. It was always about the catalyst exercising what limited power it had to distract the reapers, and to try to offer whatever help and clues to those resisting the harvest that it could. The child was the catalyst trying to communicate with Shepard, trying to convey its hopelessnesss, which is what we see at the start of the game.

But statistically the catalyst believed that this cycle had the best chance of overturning the 'first conclusion.' So it did as much as it was able to resist the reapers, to try and distract them from the shield fleet, to stop them from indoctrinating Shepard, and so on, and so on. Really, am I the only one who even conceived of a power struggle? As gamers, have we really fallen that far? Are we all just uncreative violence ****s? I want to think that isn't the case, but I couldn't help but shake my head repeatedly at the reaction to the ending.

Even this thread is just... you know, really?

Power struggles are a thing, people. Those aliens can be just as complex as humans. Why have we, as gamers, come to hate complexity and intellectuality? It seems we've all just become anti-intellectual thugs who want this binary violence. I feel like those like me, who don't want that, are becoming a very, very fringe interest.

[Yate]

You're getting it backwards.

The Catalyst doesn't take the form of the kid because Shepard dreamed about the kid.

Shepard dreamed about the kid because the Catalyst is taking the form of the kid.

[Red Panda]

Perhaps the guardian wanted to be relatable to Shepard. The kid represents all those they could not save. By representing those now gone, the guardian wishes that you consider the weight of the situation and that of why the reapers harvest, and how to stop the singularity.

[Yate]

Auld Wulf wrote...

Power struggles are a thing, people. Those aliens can be just as complex as humans. Why have we, as gamers, come to hate complexity and intellectuality? It seems we've all just become anti-intellectual thugs who want this binary violence. I feel like those like me, who don't want that, are becoming a very, very fringe interest.

Pretty much this.

I love how the "fans" are all set to accuse BW of being too mainstream, then jump down their throat when they do something new and interesting. And of course, NEVER see the irony...

bioware needs better fans

[GreyLycanTrope]

Davik Kang wrote...
Their reaction is to the reception oif the ending.

Which the Catalyst and everything he represents as an on screen presence is an intregal part of.

You're either intentionally avoiding the point, or somehow completely missing it.

You, like everyone else, can see the contradiction in the entire ME 1-3 narrative and what the Kid says, yet you think that Bioware didn't notice?

To reiterate: you actually think that they didn't realise that the whole story of ME1-3, which had a number of well-constructed recurring themes which generally had together at all times throughout, was completely at odds with the ending they created to their 9-year blockbuster project?

Yes, yes I do, you're giving them too much credit. These are the people who forgot thane was an LI for goodness sakes:

"Yeah, I wasn't in charge of Thane, but I see Thane's death situation as one of those things that's the drawback of a large writing team. Lots of followers talk about the Citadel Event in terms of what happens with the VS, but  because Thane was optional, it didn't click with any of us that the player could also have just lost a friend or loved one THERE as well. That was a dropped ball on our end." - Patrick Weekes

Modifié par Greylycantrope, 26 janvier 2013 - 09:13 .

[Wayning_Star]

Auld Wulf wrote...

The solution to this 'dilemma' is one I've been harping for a long time, because it's both obvious and logical. The first thing to understand is that storytelling isn't binary unless it's meant for a Saturday morning cartoon, and even then, I've seen some cartoons which are less binary than most triple-A videogames, sadly. Phantom 2040 is a good example. It's actually disappointing that gamers have been conditioned into this 1 versus 0 binary thinking, where Player1 is the good guy, and the Space Alien is the bad guy. And that's as complex as it gets.

You can see this kind of thinking pervading the OP, it reeks of it, it asks why the 'big bad' is a child. As such, the realisation doesn't even occur that the storyline might not be binary. It doesn't comprehend that there might be a power struggle within the reapers. The only reason this isn't obvious is because gamers have become so conditioned into the 'good fights evil, good gets happy ending' nonsense that they can't actually open their minds to anything else. They're just totally locked down, hard-wired, and it's depressing.

What this means is that the average expectation of intelligence within a mainstream videogame is less than of a cartoon like Phantom 2040. Now, sure, Phantom 2040 is an exemplary piece of work, and probably not something I should be using as an example; but there are plenty others out there, and as a medium for adults, I don't think that games should be stuck within a rut of having nothing but the most simple of cartoon plots. The fact of the matter is is that most of the videogames we play are no more mature than the Powerpuff Girls.

And the binary thinking of videogame storytelling is at the core of this.

What it means is that if you have a videogame company who decides to step outside of this pit of mediocrity, elevating themselves above the binary standard (as BioWare has), then you end up with a lot of confused gamers. The reason that the catalyst presents itself as a child is because there's a power struggle within the reapers, the catalyst doesn't agree with everything that's been done; it likely hasn't agreed for milennia, but hasn't been in a position to really change thims. This is where my theory about the catalyst leaking the crucible plans comes from.

See, I think the crucible is nothing more than a security override, it allows the 'first conclusion' to be overridden. The levithans pretty much say that the old machines were programmed in a stupid way, so that they'd come to a conclusion and then act upon it, only the leviathans could override that. Except the old machines turned upon them before they could, thus there was no one around to provide that override. This seemed the best option at the time, because the catalyst felt it could provide more freedom from domination and subjugation (which is what causes synthetic-organic conflicts) by housing people within utopian consensuses that it controlled.

However, over time, it came to other conclusions. But it wasn't in a position to change the 'first conclusion,' and the reapers were programmed to obey the first conclusion. So there was a power-struggle between the reapers and the catalyst. It was always about the catalyst exercising what limited power it had to distract the reapers, and to try to offer whatever help and clues to those resisting the harvest that it could. The child was the catalyst trying to communicate with Shepard, trying to convey its hopelessnesss, which is what we see at the start of the game.

But statistically the catalyst believed that this cycle had the best chance of overturning the 'first conclusion.' So it did as much as it was able to resist the reapers, to try and distract them from the shield fleet, to stop them from indoctrinating Shepard, and so on, and so on. Really, am I the only one who even conceived of a power struggle? As gamers, have we really fallen that far? Are we all just uncreative violence ****s? I want to think that isn't the case, but I couldn't help but shake my head repeatedly at the reaction to the ending.

Even this thread is just... you know, really?

Power struggles are a thing, people. Those aliens can be just as complex as humans. Why have we, as gamers, come to hate complexity and intellectuality? It seems we've all just become anti-intellectual thugs who want this binary violence. I feel like those like me, who don't want that, are becoming a very, very fringe interest.

come'on take it easy on the help.. we're all kids at heart..lol

I get your point tho..abstract is what happens when we age out..heheh

[Wayning_Star]

Yate wrote...

Auld Wulf wrote...

Power struggles are a thing, people. Those aliens can be just as complex as humans. Why have we, as gamers, come to hate complexity and intellectuality? It seems we've all just become anti-intellectual thugs who want this binary violence. I feel like those like me, who don't want that, are becoming a very, very fringe interest.

Pretty much this.

I love how the "fans" are all set to accuse BW of being too mainstream, then jump down their throat when they do something new and interesting. And of course, NEVER see the irony...

bioware needs better fans

they're having a sale on fans at wally world.. if we hurry...

[Ticonderoga117]

Davik Kang wrote...
Look dude, what I'm saying is that's just not how mental scarring works.  You're saying it works how yoy want it to work.  You didn't carr about Kid, you do care about Kaidan, so you want Kaidan in your dreams.  These dreams aren't about hamfisting pointless emotion into the game - the irony is that the cheesy way of soing just that would've been to have Ash/Kaidan dreams.  They are there to set up the ending, but there are also in-game reasons as to why things happen as they do.

It is symbolic, of course it;s symbolic, many things are in ME and everywhere else, but it's not the level 1 crap symbolism effort that you're trying to claim it is.  Throughout the entire thread I've been explaining this.  It appears that way at first, just as Child appears to be DEM-like when he first presents himself, but both these assumptions are false, and you really don't have to dig very hard to reveal that this is the case.

It's a bit more than I just dont' care about the kid. The kid ACTIVELY killed himself. Shepard offered help. Kid said no, and then got himself killed.