20 réponses à ce sujet

[Gamer Ftw]

 or maybe a dagger/sword combo...

[jhood_shsu]

What kind of build are you going for? A heavy armor powerhouse or a lightly armored quick striker?

For Sword: Starfang, keening, marics, and duncans are going to be your best swords.
For Axe: Veshialle bite back, and axe of the grey are my personal favorites
For Dagger: The Roses thorn, Duncans, Dead Thiag, Fang (if city elf origin), Edge, and Thorn of the Dead Gods are tops.

A high Dex dual dagger i believe has the highest DPS, but the big weapons are fun as well.

Also if you plan on soloing, then a Dex build (dual dagger) is perfect for defense as well.

[dainbramage]

Best is either starfang/rose's thorn or veshialle/rose's thorn.

The former's slightly better against armoured targets, while the latter slightly better against unarmoured. Either way the rose's thorn is the best off-hand weapon because its enchantments are so insanely good. Focus on crit boosting items and starfang+rose's thorn (or veshialle+rose's thorn) will actually have better average damage per hit than starfang+veshialle, as well as attacking significantly faster. Autoattack damage is pretty similar between sword+dagger and dual daggers.

EDIT: The advantages and disadvantages of each build would be:

Large+Dagger - good autoattack, good talents, poor defence
Dagger+Dagger - good autoattack, poor talents, excellent defence
Large+Large - poor autoattack, good talents, poor defence

Modifié par dainbramage, 28 janvier 2013 - 01:43 .

[keeneaow]

I go with Starfang & Ignacio's dagger, with as many paralyze runes as i can get.

[Gamer Ftw]

I had no idea dual dagger was actaully good lol.
Def trying that one.

[NightfallXIII]

The three best swords (as far as I know) are Starfang (Warden's Keep DLC), King Maric's Sword, and Duncan's sword (Both found in Return to Ostagar DLC).

[Last Darkness]

Gamer Ftw wrote...

I had no idea dual dagger was actaully good lol.
Def trying that one.

Dual Dagger Warrior the best DPS you can build in the entire game. Plus its a nigh unhitable tank as well.

It does the highest amount of damage to a single target while having a defense score that makes them unhitable by non-magic attacks.

[Fallstar]

Full size, the optimum is dual Veshialle's with a max str build. You can get dual Veshialle's because Bodahn's store resets after the first time you visit camp, and you can get enough gold for a Veshialle straight away by selling the Reaper's cudgel. If you think that is something of an exploit, use one Veshialle and either Starfang or the Keening Blade.

Plus I still think a dual full size, max str, ability spamming build has higher DPS that the dagger builds when positioned correctly to take maximum advantage of your increased range. Whirlwind and Dual weapon sweep both actually hit each enemy twice, and Punisher is the best thing since sliced bread when it comes to single target damage and debuffs.

If you do want to use dual daggers, the Rose's thorn and a 3 slotted 15% crit damage boosting Crow's dagger is the way to go.

[dainbramage]

Eh... starfang+veshialle will do slightly more damage than 2x veshialle even at level 25 with max strength. Where by slightly I mean the difference is <1%.

For dual daggers though, the edge or thorn of the dead gods are definitely better than a crow dagger offhand. Even for rogues they're often superior to a crow, and warriors certainly aren't critting 100% of the time.

[Fallstar]

dainbramage wrote...

Eh... starfang+veshialle will do slightly more damage than 2x veshialle even at level 25 with max strength. Where by slightly I mean the difference is <1%.

For dual daggers though, the edge or thorn of the dead gods are definitely better than a crow dagger offhand. Even for rogues they're often superior to a crow, and warriors certainly aren't critting 100% of the time.

Full size

At say 60 strength, the 1.1 damage modifier on a Veshialle gives you +6 damage, meaning a Veshialle has a base damage rating of 19.6 (not taking into account the critical damage bonus.)

Starfang on the other hand has only a 14.9 damage bonus. Even if you factor in armour penetration, you only get up to 14.9+6.7 = 21.8 on Starfang, as opposed to 19.6+4 = 23.6 on a Veshialle. When you factor in the 5% critical chance boost and 10% critical damage boost on a Veshialle, the Veshialle is very significantly superior to Starfang. It's not a <1% boost in favour of Starfang (no idea where you get that from) in fact the Veshialle is nearly 10% better even before you consider the criticals.

Daggers

Since a dual daggers warrior should be wearing the High Regard of House Dace in the neck slot, they have a high critical chance. (+7% melee critical chance) As such, the +15% critical damage is significantly superior to the Thorn of the Dead Gods - which maxes out at tier 6, and so is limited to only 6.0 base damage and 7.0 base armour penetration.

The end result from the innate enchantments on the Thorn is 9 Damage and 10AP. The big problem is that it only has 2 rune slots. This means you can max it out at 19 damage and 10 AP, for a total score of 29 base damage modifier versus heavily armoured enemies. Against less heavily armoured enemies, it doesn't perform that well, but the crow dagger will still outperform it using those generous numbers.

The crow dagger has a base damage of 6.4 and armour penetration of 8.0. With 3 rune slots, this gives you a base damage bonus of 21.4 +8.0 for AP giving 29.4. Meaning that even without the +15% critical damage on a crow dagger, ANY 3 slotted dragonbone dagger is superior to the Thorn. When you include the +15% critical damage on the crow dagger, there isn't even a question as to which is superior.

The edge has no enchantment slots, meaning it gets a measly 11.0+7.0 damage bonus for 18.0 total.

Conclusion

So if you take a look at the numbers - this is only a cursory examination, if you did the number crunching on the crits you'd see the weapons I suggested becoming even more superior to the ones you did - you'll see that my weapon suggestions are optimal for those builds.

To clarify and avoid misinformation, that means:

Dual full size weapons, talent spammer: Pick dual Veshialles
Dual daggers: The Rose's Thorn and a 3 slotted crow dagger


tl;dr


Veshialle : 23.6 base damage rating (including AP) + significant boost from extra crit chance and damage that Starfang doesn't have.
Starfang: 21.8 base damage rating (including AP)

Crow dagger: 29.4 base damage rating (including AP & 3 rune slots) + significant boost from extra crit damage that the other two daggers don't.
Thorn of the Dead Gods: 29.0 base damage rating (including AP & 2 rune slots)
The Edge: 18.0 base damage rating (including AP)

Modifié par DuskWarden, 28 février 2013 - 01:03 .

[gds76]

What about Duncans dagger, though? +4Dex and +10% critical should also be among the top.

[Blazomancer]

We had a similar discussion some time back in another thread.

For a crit/backstab:
C * (AVERAGE(W, W * R) + 0.375 * X * Y ) + O - A




#For 80 strength (before equipping weapons) and ignoring armor damage reduction:

Starfang
Average critical damage = 1.6 * (avg(11.90, 17.85) + 0.375 * 1 * 70) + 3
                                            = 1.6 * (14.875 + 26.25) + 3
                                            = 68.8

Veshialle
Average critical damage = 1.7 * (avg(9.6, 12) + 0.375 * 1.1 * 74)
                                            = 1.7 * (10.8 + 30.525)
                                            = 70.2

*The transition probably takes place somewhere in the mid 70's, which is pretty late game. The maximum I have managed with a DW warrior is 94 strength, which means it's still around level 20 that Veshialle starts outperforming Starfang in terms of damage. All this provided armor penetration is a non-issue for the player, i.e. if he/she's got telekinetic weapons on. Otherwise, this difference becomes even smaller against armored units given Starfang's better AP. So, I believe it's relative and even then the difference is pretty minor. May be somebody would prefer to stick to Starfang-Veshialle combo initially till the transitional phase kicks in.




#Let's assume dex + str = 120 including +2 dex from the Rose's Thorn

Thorn of the Dead Gods
Average critical damage = 1.8 * (avg(6, 9) + 0.375 * 0.425 * 100) + 6   
                                            = 1.8 * (7.5 + 15.9) + 6
                                            = 48.1

The Edge
Average critical damage = 1.8 * (7.5 + 15.9) + 8
                                            = 50.1

Crow Dagger
Average critical damage = 1.95 * (avg(6.4, 9.6) + 15.9) + 3
                                            = 1.95 * (8 + 15.9) + 3
                                            = 49.6

Duncan's Dagger
Average critical damage = 1.9 * (8 + 0.375 * 0.425 * 104) + 3
                                            = 1.9 * (8 + 16.6) + 3
                                            = 49.7

*There's hardly any difference between The Edge, the Crow Dagger and Duncan's Dagger. There's only one less rune slot in edge, and runes and other on hit effects come into the picture only while autoattacking. And given the varying elemental resistances of eneimes, we hardly see a complete 5 elemental damage number each time. Of course the Crow dagger and Duncan's have the advantage of an extra rune slot, while the Edge would add 2.7 more to the net critical chance and a paltry + 4 attack. This stuff is pretty much balanced if you'd ask me. One can hardly predict which one's superior than the other. In an ideal situation, when +5/+10 damage from the extra rune and a critical hit is guaranted, then one can say that the Duncan's Dagger and Crow Dagger is a little ahead of The Edge in terms of damage.


My personal choice would be 'Dual Veshialles' for full sized and 'Thorn-Edge' for daggers, simply because matching waraxes look cool in my warden's back, and I love stacking up those critical chances. But honestly, the above differences are hardly monumental to justify sneezing on one or the other combo.


Note: The real damage numbers would be higher in each case when we take into account the 'character damage bonuses', but the comparison still holds.

[dainbramage]

DuskWarden wrote...

dainbramage wrote...

Eh... starfang+veshialle will do slightly more damage than 2x veshialle even at level 25 with max strength. Where by slightly I mean the difference is <1%.

For dual daggers though, the edge or thorn of the dead gods are definitely better than a crow dagger offhand. Even for rogues they're often superior to a crow, and warriors certainly aren't critting 100% of the time.

(no idea where you get that from)

and a bunch of other stuff, including my personal favourite

if you did the number crunching

I got that from a spreadsheet I made calculating the damage of each setup (amongst a ton of others), including fully statted and equipped character. Y'know, me doing the number crunching.

Also, you don't understand the damage formula. Which there's nothing really wrong with as it's unnecessarily convoluted - except when you act like you do.

EDIT: And for gds26, at level 18 (I used the same criteria as discobird) a HN/dwarf with all points into str or dex wearing HoH/felon's coat/cailan's gloves/cadash stompers/andruil's blessing/house dace/harvest festival ring/kttc AND you are using GM elemental runes where possible and have berserk, momentum and blood thirst activated... rose's thorn+the edge will do 146 DPS while rose's thorn + (dragonbone) duncan's will do 144 DPS.

By level 25 however, the best chestpiece has changed from the felon's coat to warden commander armour (if you simply want to maximise DPS) and corruption has become available, and the TRT+edge will do 161 DPS while TRT+duncan's does 157.

TLDR: Or alternatively the edge does slightly better than duncan's, even when the latter is dragonbone with 3 GM runes.

EDIT 2: And blazomancer, you're calculating crit damage there, not average damage. Plus ignoring that starfang's, totdg's and the edge's +damage and +ap effectively need to be counted twice as they affect both weapons. Which most of the comparisons in this thread seem to be doing. Also ignoring any enchantments, you need 119 strength (124 against an armoured target) before a dragonbone waraxe will outdamage a starmetal longsword.

EDIT 3: Also to note, the game always rounds down when displaying numbers, but the game treats damage as a floating point decimal. Which means that on hard/nightmare you'll nearly always see GM elemental runes doing 4 damage, but in reality are doing 4.875 (hard) or 4.75 (nightmare) damage.

Modifié par dainbramage, 01 mars 2013 - 08:34 .

[Blazomancer]

dainbramage wrote...
And blazomancer, you're calculating crit damage there, not average damage. Plus ignoring that starfang's, totdg's and the edge's +damage and +ap effectively need to be counted twice as they affect both weapons. Which most of the comparisons in this thread seem to be doing. Also ignoring any enchantments, you need 119 strength (124 against an armoured target) before a dragonbone waraxe will outdamage a starmetal longsword.

Exactly, I was calculating crit damage. That was because I took it for granted that majority of the hits will be critical hits, given that reaching high crit chance with a warrior is possible. To be more accurate I think we should actually factor in critical chance! Shouldn't we? Btw, I agree about the generic 'starmetal longsword - dragonbone waraxe' thingy.

Also I was calculating only the off hand weapon damage. I'm guessing you mean that we should consider both main and off hand damage, yes? I don't see things changing much even then. The gist of what i said should remain true; but fair is fair, let's calculate and see, shall we?






So, again ignoring 'CharacterDmgBonus',  for a character having 80 strength:

Dual Veshialle

Crit avg = 70.2 * 2 = 140.4
Non-crit avg = (10.8 + 30.525) * 2 = 82.65
AP = 4/4 (excluding contribution from cunning and accessories)

Starfang - Veshialle

Crit avg = [1.6 * (14.85 + 0.375 * 1 * 72) + 3] + [1.6 * (10.8 + 0.375 * 1.1 * 72) + 3] = 67.0 + 67.8 = 134.8
Non-crit avg = [(14.875 + 0.375 * 1 * 72) + 3] + [10.8 + 0.375 * 1.1 * 72) + 3] = 44.8 + 43.5 = 88.3
AP = 6.7/6.5



Similarly, arbitrarily choosing 120 (dex+str) for daggers (including +2 dex from the Rose's Thorn):

Rose's Thorn - Thorn of the Dead Gods
Crit avg = [1.8 * (8 + 0.375 * 0.425 * 100) + 6] + [1.8 * (7.5 + 0.375 * 0.425 * 100) + 6] = 49.0 + 48.2 = 97.2
Non-crit avg = 29.9 + 29.4 = 59.3
AP = 11/10

Rose's Thorn - The Edge
Crit avg = [1.8 * (8 + 0.375 * 0.425 * 100) + 8] + [1.8 * (7.5 + 0.375 * 0.425 * 100) + 8] = 51.0 + 50.2 = 101.2
Non-crit avg = 31.9 + 31.4 = 63.3
AP = 8/7

Rose's Thorn - Crow Dagger
Crit avg = [1.95 * (8 + 0.375 * 0.425 *100) + 3] + [1.95 * (8 + 0.375 * 0.425 * 100) + 3] = 49.6 + 49.6 = 99.2
Non-crit avg = 26.9 + 26.9 = 53.8
AP = 8/8

Rose's Thorn - Duncan's Dagger
Crit avg = [1.9 * (8 + 0.375 * 0.425 * 104) + 3] + [1.9 * (8 + 0.375 * 0.425 * 104) + 3] = 49.6 + 49.6 = 99.2
Non-crit avg = 27.6 + 27.6 = 55.2
AP = 8/8


#Equipping dual veshialle's and bringing along a high cunning bard, I reached 61% crit chance, which can go even higher if someone brings along another rogue. Even the starfang-veshialle combo will only be 3.2% behind. Since critical chance would be different for person to person, one way out may be to consider 50% crit chance and take the mean, and so I've done in this spreadsheet.




tl;dr: Spreadsheet.
Assuming my calculations are correct, the differences don't seem significant even now. The 'additional rune slot for crow and duncan's', '2 extra nature damage for dual-veshialles', 'critical chance having the potential to exceed 50%', 'ArmorDmgReduction being a random variable ranging from 0.7-1 times of (Armor rating -AP)' - all these hitherto ignored factors also seem to contribute towards making the weapon combinations more balanced rather than increasing the difference. Hmm, be aware that I kind of hate maths and my calculations usually go awry.
What say dain?

[dainbramage]

Proper spreadsheet (EDIT: see my next post for actual working link) is what say. It, as far as I know, calculates everything from scratch (so there's no chance of me making mathematical errors), and agrees exactly with discobird's calculations for a DW rogue. And is what I've been basing my claims on.

Regardless, your own numbers show the same thing. With a 50% chance to crit (and without party buffs, it's lower than that) vesh/vesh and starfang/vesh both have virtually the same average damage (111.55 vs 111.525) while the starfang combo has more AP.

And, finally, I never claimed anything made a particularly large difference (before I did specify <1%). In fact, both dual veshialle and veshialle + starfang (which as before are very similar) only do about 14% more dps than simply dual-wielding unenchanted dragonbone waraxes.

Modifié par dainbramage, 02 mars 2013 - 06:05 .

[Blazomancer]

Sure, the point of my original post was not to counter anybody, not certainly you. I was simply annoyed that some of the combinations are being termed as 'better/superior' than the others in this thread. As far as I can see, these minor differences don't mean crap in a practical sense.


My second post was triggered by your mentioning about me taking into account only critical damage, and that too of the off-hand alone. That's all; no big deal.


I'm having trouble viewing your spreadsheet. Says something like 'This item might not exist or is no longer available'. Since I'm wallowing with self appraisal atm, I'd say I'm also doing everything from scratch so to speak - the only things I've ignored are the level damage bonuses, and other ability bonuses, which are all additive, so I expect the relativity of the comparison to remain preserved. Another thing I've done differently is that I've taken two arbitrary values for strength and (str+dex) for the calculations. The initial values I've entered in the spreadsheet are all that I've calculated above using the damage formula. So, I'd be glad if they are correct. Otherwise, damn it.


Another thing - my comparison for Vesh/Vesh - SF/Vesh are based at 80 strength. Someone's who's focussed in strength will add about 10 more strength by level 25, meaning the balance will shift towards twinVeshialle's favor in spite of the AP bonus of the latter, and again, that little difference don't mean anything practically. So, i guess we'd rather not talk about it, the irony being that I just did.  The transition(if you will) from SF/Veshialle to vesh/vesh still takes place at around 80 strength if we consider avg damage, which I suggested in my first post(somewhere in the mid 70's for only crits), which I think contradicts what you said in your reply to DuskWarden - "starfang+veshialle will do slightly more damage than 2x veshialle even at level 25 with max strength. Where by slightly I mean the difference is <1%."; you might not be wrong per se, but the problem arising because of the fact that you didn't mention what is that max strength at level 25.

Modifié par Blazomancer, 02 mars 2013 - 03:51 .

[dainbramage]

Ugh, I not good at skydrive. How do I make it public?

EDIT: ok this should work: http://sdrv.ms/Y4YJTM

So yes, I agree. The difference is tiny enough so as to be virtually inconsequential.

(but I'm still going to contradict anyone who says dual veshialles is better, as opposed to equally good)

Modifié par dainbramage, 02 mars 2013 - 06:06 .

[Blazomancer]

Fair enough.

And wow, that's quite an extensive analysis you've got there. Really seem to have put a lot of work into it. Good on you.

[Jeffonl1]

Nice bit of work!

[mid3vil187]

so DW warrior is better than a dual wielding rogue?..im assuming ur taking the berserk/champion? specializations?

and is that pure dex or pure str?

Modifié par mid3vil187, 07 mars 2013 - 06:11 .

[dainbramage]

DW warriors and DW rogues have very different strengths and weaknesses. I wouldn't call either better overall.