86 réponses à ce sujet

[Anduin The Grey]

Priss Blackburne wrote...

I don't think Shepard has survived an explosion that is equivalent to a Atomic bomb. We know how big the citadel is and the explosion covers the circumference of it. It's an explosion the size of a large city, and it's centered around where Shepard is located , and he/she is apparently not inside any structure as you can see space where he/she is.

All we actually know is that he is at the centre of a very big chain reaction, the explosions that expanded throughout the Citdadel could have grown as it drew more and more power from the Citadel to channel it's energy throughout the galaxy,

No-one has ever cared about the 7 Halo rings anhilating only sentient life throughout the galaxy with no untoward side effects for the Halo arrays, you've got countless Mass Relays.

[Archonsg]

Lets look at facts.
Shepard was caught in an explosion. This is not in question.
So how powerful was the kinetic momentum force at the location where Shepard was found?
Taking a cue from the broken rubble, Concrete requires roughly 5 mega pascals or about 700psi to cut a 150mm x 150mm x 150mm un-reinforced cube.

For Megastructures of size like that of the Citadel, reinforced concrete would be used, though in the MEU, we have "Ferocrete" of which actual properties are unknown. But, it would be logical it would be magnitudes in term of strength, tensile load as well as elasplasticy.

Now coming back to the rubble, we know you need at least 700 psi to crack un-reinforced concrete, we know it only takes about 17 psi to crack a human skull, much less to severe human weak points such as elbow joints and the neck and we know the "Ferocrete" is far more stronger than even reinforced concrete.

In other words, that explosion would have this happen in sequence, Shepard's arm that was exposed at the elbow where it meets the part of the arm armor still intact and Shepard's head and neck where he doesn't have any protection are first sheared off from his body.

Then the joints of his limbs are sheared off leaving the torso more or less intact.
Well actually, "intact" is only relative since it would suffer immense kinetic force transferal through the armor.

Shepard's organs and intestines are more or less pulverized.

Bones, his entire skeletal structure will suffer impact stress. Very likely shattering multiple locations including his spine.

And of course with his head and arm missing, bleed out in about a minute.

That is reality.
For anyone who wants to trump the reality card. You either accept this or discard it and in doing so, all arguments about the game being "realistic" altogether.
You can't have it both ways.
And yes, this is a common war injury.

This is a case where the writers thought what is "cool" trumping what is realistic. Unfortunately, it goes so far past the "wtf?!" end of the scale, it does break one's suspension of disbelief. Or, if you want to maintain that suspension, then you better not quote what can be "realistic" as a basis for anything.

Modifié par Archonsg, 28 janvier 2013 - 02:49 .

[Shallyah]

Pretty sure that some dev said in twitter that the Citadel is fractioned in numerous self-sufficient sections that could have survivors in them after the explosion. The biggest then is to imagine how could Shepard get to one of them while he was in the middle of the bang.

My opinion is that he must be somewhere in some large chunk of the Citadel with life support.

[Archonsg]

@Shallyah

That is possible only if he was instantly teleported before the explosion reached him to a safe, protected and secured spot, then again teleported to an area affected by the explosion.

Why, how and WTF?
Right?

[teh DRUMPf!!]

From the ole Weekes interview...

Q: Did anyone on the Citadel survive?

A: Yes. We would never, ever do anything that made the player feel, on replay, that it would be better for everyone on the Citadel if they just died. The Citadel has emergency shelters and kinetic barriers - even if it blows up, millions might survive.

[Archonsg]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

From the ole Weekes interview...

Q: Did anyone on the Citadel survive?

A: Yes. We would never, ever do anything that made the player feel, on replay, that it would be better for everyone on the Citadel if they just died. The Citadel has emergency shelters and kinetic barriers - even if it blows up, millions might survive.

At the point when the explosion is triggered, is Shepard in any of the above locations?

Following the rules of energy dispersal would the point of origin of an explosion be weaker than say a kilometer out?

Given that we are shown destruction at a massive scale, and that Shepard was last shown to be engulfed in the explosion at ground zero, is there time for him to get to any of these safe areas?

Read my post above about how explosions work and the forces required to damage concrete and the human body, would you claim that Shepard's body at any one location has more resistance to an explosion than concrete of 150mm thickness?

If any of your answer is yes. 
Please give a factual reason how this can be so.

ps: edited no to yes. yeah my bad in thinking and not typing in sync.

Modifié par Archonsg, 28 janvier 2013 - 04:09 .

[Wayning_Star]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

From the ole Weekes interview...

Q: Did anyone on the Citadel survive?

A: Yes. We would never, ever do anything that made the player feel, on replay, that it would be better for everyone on the Citadel if they just died. The Citadel has emergency shelters and kinetic barriers - even if it blows up, millions might survive.

how can a live person take the beam up to the citadel? Is it like that star trek transporter?

Sheps knocked out and flung over to some undisclosed surface in town there, as the place is in shambles, plenty of concrete'n stuff that'd never be used by the catalyst for construction of the citadel. All of which is repaired by keepers.

Shep has to be alive, but out of it to access/interface with the Leviathanlike catalyst operating system. The mind is a terrible thing to waste.. the brain couldn't handle the catalyst 'up front and in yur face'. Pretty obvious, when considering just how fried out TIM was up there and Anderson didn't have a scratch...

[Wayning_Star]

Archonsg wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

From the ole Weekes interview...

Q: Did anyone on the Citadel survive?

A: Yes. We would never, ever do anything that made the player feel, on replay, that it would be better for everyone on the Citadel if they just died. The Citadel has emergency shelters and kinetic barriers - even if it blows up, millions might survive.

At the point when the explosion is triggered, is Shepard in any of the above locations?

Following the rules of energy dispersal would the point of origin of an explosion be weaker than say a kilometer out?

Given that we are shown destruction at a massive scale, and that Shepard was last shown to be engulfed in the explosion at ground zero, is there time for him to get to any of these safe areas?

Read my post above about how explosions work and the forces required to damage concrete and the human body, would you claim that Shepard's body at any one location has more resistance to an explosion than concrete of 150mm thickness?

If any of your answer is no.
Please give a factual reason how this can be so.

I wonder just how wonderful Sheps armor can be in the MEU... on one second, gone the next, to return post decision.

[Wayning_Star]

Face it.. "Sheps not home Maaann"...

(can you say "metaphysical"

[Archonsg]

Wayning_Star wrote...

Face it.. "Sheps not home Maaann"...

(can you say "metaphysical"

More like whoever wrote that scene was in lala land. I hear that sleep deprivation, EA release schedules and desperation has that effect on people.

[Wayning_Star]

Archonsg wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

Face it.. "Sheps not home Maaann"...

(can you say "metaphysical"

More like whoever wrote that scene was in lala land. I hear that sleep deprivation, EA release schedules and desperation has that effect on people.

OR, they threw out impossible situationals for fans to contemplate.. things like intergalactic war on earth..ultra apex synthetic superest computers and one Lone Grunt..to take the flag..

[Archonsg]

Wayning_Star wrote...

Archonsg wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

Face it.. "Sheps not home Maaann"...

(can you say "metaphysical"

More like whoever wrote that scene was in lala land. I hear that sleep deprivation, EA release schedules and desperation has that effect on people.

OR, they threw out impossible situationals for fans to contemplate.. things like intergalactic war on earth..ultra apex synthetic superest computers and one Lone Grunt..to take the flag..

Nah. All that are still acceptable. ME3 is afterall a work of fiction. However it started out as a work of fiction with rules.
Rules that for the most part match our own. Refer to the famous "Sir Issac Newton is the DEADLIEST SOB in space..." speech.

Physics mattered.
Modified and with the socratic "what if Ezo and mass effect exist" premise to be sure but those rules mattered. 

As I mentioned before, it is all about the suspension of disbelief. 
As long as they follow their own rules, I'll suspend my disbelief. Break those rules and I'll bring the logic hammer out.

Modifié par Archonsg, 28 janvier 2013 - 04:33 .

[Anduin The Grey]

Archonsg wrote...

Lets look at facts.
Shepard was caught in an explosion. This is not in question.
So how powerful was the kinetic momentum force at the location where Shepard was found?
Taking a cue from the broken rubble, Concrete requires roughly 5 mega pascals or about 700psi to cut a 150mm x 150mm x 150mm un-reinforced cube.

For Megastructures of size like that of the Citadel, reinforced concrete would be used, though in the MEU, we have "Ferocrete" of which actual properties are unknown. But, it would be logical it would be magnitudes in term of strength, tensile load as well as elasplasticy.

Now coming back to the rubble, we know you need at least 700 psi to crack un-reinforced concrete, we know it only takes about 17 psi to crack a human skull, much less to severe human weak points such as elbow joints and the neck and we know the "Ferocrete" is far more stronger than even reinforced concrete.

In other words, that explosion would have this happen in sequence, Shepard's arm that was exposed at the elbow where it meets the part of the arm armor still intact and Shepard's head and neck where he doesn't have any protection are first sheared off from his body.

Then the joints of his limbs are sheared off leaving the torso more or less intact.
Well actually, "intact" is only relative since it would suffer immense kinetic force transferal through the armor.

Shepard's organs and intestines are more or less pulverized.

Bones, his entire skeletal structure will suffer impact stress. Very likely shattering multiple locations including his spine.

And of course with his head and arm missing, bleed out in about a minute.

That is reality.
For anyone who wants to trump the reality card. You either accept this or discard it and in doing so, all arguments about the game being "realistic" altogether.
You can't have it both ways.
And yes, this is a common war injury.

This is a case where the writers thought what is "cool" trumping what is realistic. Unfortunately, it goes so far past the "wtf?!" end of the scale, it does break one's suspension of disbelief. Or, if you want to maintain that suspension, then you better not quote what can be "realistic" as a basis for anything.

Two word response, Project Lazarus.

[Wayning_Star]

Archonsg wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

Archonsg wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

Face it.. "Sheps not home Maaann"...

(can you say "metaphysical"

More like whoever wrote that scene was in lala land. I hear that sleep deprivation, EA release schedules and desperation has that effect on people.

OR, they threw out impossible situationals for fans to contemplate.. things like intergalactic war on earth..ultra apex synthetic superest computers and one Lone Grunt..to take the flag..

Nah. All that are still acceptable. ME3 is afterall a work of fiction. However it started out as a work of fiction with rules.
Rules that for the most part match our own. Refer to the famous "Sir Issac Newton is the DEADLIEST SOB in space..." speech.

Physics mattered.
Modified and with the socratic "what if Ezo and mass effect exist" premise to be sure but those rules mattered. 

As I mentioned before, it is all about the suspension of disbelief. 
As long as they follow their own rules, I'll suspend my disbelief. Break those rules and I'll bring the logic hammer out.

we can only suspend disbelief via our respective beleif systems. Making me quite weird really..lol

really tho,it's about imagining the other 'possibilities' as opposed to grounded in 'current' reality. Once we step into the MEU,we're obligated to accept that reality and given 'grounds' for it.

I wonder what Issac Newton would think of a black hole or dark energy/matter with expanded theory of relativity, nano tech and high pressure physics of compartmentalized space(Dr Who?). Fiction is the scientists favorite tool, according to Einstein..






“Imagination is more important than knowledge. For knowledge is limited to all we now know and understand, while imagination embraces the entire world, and all there ever will be to know and understand.”


Albert Einstein quotes

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Archonsg wrote...

At the point when the explosion is triggered, is Shepard in any of the above locations?

Following the rules of energy dispersal would the point of origin of an explosion be weaker than say a kilometer out?

Given that we are shown destruction at a massive scale, and that Shepard was last shown to be engulfed in the explosion at ground zero, is there time for him to get to any of these safe areas?

The explosion didn't even destroy the ring of the Citadel. It's still intact afterwards.

The Citadel wasn't even obliterated, there were just random explosions and the arms breaking off.

Kinetic barrier likely absorbed the blast. Plus, EC shows humans surviving the effects.

[Wayning_Star]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Archonsg wrote...

At the point when the explosion is triggered, is Shepard in any of the above locations?

Following the rules of energy dispersal would the point of origin of an explosion be weaker than say a kilometer out?

Given that we are shown destruction at a massive scale, and that Shepard was last shown to be engulfed in the explosion at ground zero, is there time for him to get to any of these safe areas?

The explosion didn't even destroy the ring of the Citadel. It's still intact afterwards.

The Citadel wasn't even obliterated, there were just random explosions and the arms breaking off.

Kinetic barrier likely absorbed the blast. Plus, EC shows humans surviving the effects.

Shep has shields and medi gel as well as extra-corporeal protections from eEzo enhanced ability. Even if on the ground,Shep "could" survive a sizable blast center,eventhough severely damaging given armor, which could explain walking into a beam without armor, but not breathing in rubble with another type of armor, in realy good shape..(I wore collector armor throughout)

edit: yes I'm pointing again to my stupid out of the body experience..

Modifié par Wayning_Star, 28 janvier 2013 - 05:14 .

[TheWerdna]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

JasonShepard wrote...

Fairly sure I saw a flycam video once that compared various materials around the choice 'room' with the rubble in the breath scene. I'd say Shep's on the Citadel. As for how he/she survived the explosion - Shepard has arguably survived worse, and has some fairly impressive regeneration abilities (presumably from Lazarus implants).

The closest thing was when the Collector's destroyed the SR-1... and he didn't survive that.

He has implants this time. Besides, it wasn't the explosion that killed him, it was the lack of air.

Modifié par TheWerdna, 28 janvier 2013 - 05:17 .

[Wayning_Star]

TheWerdna wrote...

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

JasonShepard wrote...

Fairly sure I saw a flycam video once that compared various materials around the choice 'room' with the rubble in the breath scene. I'd say Shep's on the Citadel. As for how he/she survived the explosion - Shepard has arguably survived worse, and has some fairly impressive regeneration abilities (presumably from Lazarus implants).

The closest thing was when the Collector's destroyed the SR-1... and he didn't survive that.

He has implants this time. Besides, it wasn't the explosion that killed him, it was the lack of air.

yeah, "Space, the final frontier"...ulp

I often wondered how Shep made it down tho.. one tough set of armor be my guess.. flash frozen in space,then super heated on planetfall. But then, I doubt Shep would be big enough to create enough heat to burn up on reentry...

[Anduin The Grey]

TheWerdna wrote...

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

JasonShepard wrote...

Fairly sure I saw a flycam video once that compared various materials around the choice 'room' with the rubble in the breath scene. I'd say Shep's on the Citadel. As for how he/she survived the explosion - Shepard has arguably survived worse, and has some fairly impressive regeneration abilities (presumably from Lazarus implants).

The closest thing was when the Collector's destroyed the SR-1... and he didn't survive that.

He has implants this time. Besides, it wasn't the explosion that killed him, it was the lack of air.

Well mostly, am pretty sure entering planetfall didn't help too much either .

Modifié par Anduin The Grey, 28 janvier 2013 - 07:44 .

[Peranor]

Anduin The Grey wrote...

Archonsg wrote...

Lets look at facts.
Shepard was caught in an explosion. This is not in question.
So how powerful was the kinetic momentum force at the location where Shepard was found?
Taking a cue from the broken rubble, Concrete requires roughly 5 mega pascals or about 700psi to cut a 150mm x 150mm x 150mm un-reinforced cube.

For Megastructures of size like that of the Citadel, reinforced concrete would be used, though in the MEU, we have "Ferocrete" of which actual properties are unknown. But, it would be logical it would be magnitudes in term of strength, tensile load as well as elasplasticy.

Now coming back to the rubble, we know you need at least 700 psi to crack un-reinforced concrete, we know it only takes about 17 psi to crack a human skull, much less to severe human weak points such as elbow joints and the neck and we know the "Ferocrete" is far more stronger than even reinforced concrete.

In other words, that explosion would have this happen in sequence, Shepard's arm that was exposed at the elbow where it meets the part of the arm armor still intact and Shepard's head and neck where he doesn't have any protection are first sheared off from his body.

Then the joints of his limbs are sheared off leaving the torso more or less intact.
Well actually, "intact" is only relative since it would suffer immense kinetic force transferal through the armor.

Shepard's organs and intestines are more or less pulverized.

Bones, his entire skeletal structure will suffer impact stress. Very likely shattering multiple locations including his spine.

And of course with his head and arm missing, bleed out in about a minute.

That is reality.
For anyone who wants to trump the reality card. You either accept this or discard it and in doing so, all arguments about the game being "realistic" altogether.
You can't have it both ways.
And yes, this is a common war injury.

This is a case where the writers thought what is "cool" trumping what is realistic. Unfortunately, it goes so far past the "wtf?!" end of the scale, it does break one's suspension of disbelief. Or, if you want to maintain that suspension, then you better not quote what can be "realistic" as a basis for anything.

Two word response, Project Lazarus.

Project Lazarus was silly, yes. But that is another discussion.
Now we're discussing the impossibility of Shepard surviving the Citadel explosion.

Modifié par anorling, 28 janvier 2013 - 07:47 .

[CynicalShep]

Archonsg wrote...

Lets look at facts.
Shepard was caught in an explosion. This is not in question.
So how powerful was the kinetic momentum force at the location where Shepard was found?
Taking a cue from the broken rubble, Concrete requires roughly 5 mega pascals or about 700psi to cut a 150mm x 150mm x 150mm un-reinforced cube.

For Megastructures of size like that of the Citadel, reinforced concrete would be used, though in the MEU, we have "Ferocrete" of which actual properties are unknown. But, it would be logical it would be magnitudes in term of strength, tensile load as well as elasplasticy.

Now coming back to the rubble, we know you need at least 700 psi to crack un-reinforced concrete, we know it only takes about 17 psi to crack a human skull, much less to severe human weak points such as elbow joints and the neck and we know the "Ferocrete" is far more stronger than even reinforced concrete.

In other words, that explosion would have this happen in sequence, Shepard's arm that was exposed at the elbow where it meets the part of the arm armor still intact and Shepard's head and neck where he doesn't have any protection are first sheared off from his body.

Then the joints of his limbs are sheared off leaving the torso more or less intact.
Well actually, "intact" is only relative since it would suffer immense kinetic force transferal through the armor.

Shepard's organs and intestines are more or less pulverized.

Bones, his entire skeletal structure will suffer impact stress. Very likely shattering multiple locations including his spine.

And of course with his head and arm missing, bleed out in about a minute.

That is reality.
For anyone who wants to trump the reality card. You either accept this or discard it and in doing so, all arguments about the game being "realistic" altogether.
You can't have it both ways.
And yes, this is a common war injury.

This is a case where the writers thought what is "cool" trumping what is realistic. Unfortunately, it goes so far past the "wtf?!" end of the scale, it does break one's suspension of disbelief. Or, if you want to maintain that suspension, then you better not quote what can be "realistic" as a basis for anything.

Aw, man. You ruined Shepard's coolness for me

[k.lalh]

Archonsg wrote...

Lets look at facts.
Shepard was caught in an explosion. This is not in question.
So how powerful was the kinetic momentum force at the location where Shepard was found?
Taking a cue from the broken rubble, Concrete requires roughly 5 mega pascals or about 700psi to cut a 150mm x 150mm x 150mm un-reinforced cube.

For Megastructures of size like that of the Citadel, reinforced concrete would be used, though in the MEU, we have "Ferocrete" of which actual properties are unknown. But, it would be logical it would be magnitudes in term of strength, tensile load as well as elasplasticy.

Now coming back to the rubble, we know you need at least 700 psi to crack un-reinforced concrete, we know it only takes about 17 psi to crack a human skull, much less to severe human weak points such as elbow joints and the neck and we know the "Ferocrete" is far more stronger than even reinforced concrete.

In other words, that explosion would have this happen in sequence, Shepard's arm that was exposed at the elbow where it meets the part of the arm armor still intact and Shepard's head and neck where he doesn't have any protection are first sheared off from his body.

Then the joints of his limbs are sheared off leaving the torso more or less intact.
Well actually, "intact" is only relative since it would suffer immense kinetic force transferal through the armor.

Shepard's organs and intestines are more or less pulverized.

Bones, his entire skeletal structure will suffer impact stress. Very likely shattering multiple locations including his spine.

And of course with his head and arm missing, bleed out in about a minute.

That is reality.
For anyone who wants to trump the reality card. You either accept this or discard it and in doing so, all arguments about the game being "realistic" altogether.
You can't have it both ways.
And yes, this is a common war injury.

This is a case where the writers thought what is "cool" trumping what is realistic. Unfortunately, it goes so far past the "wtf?!" end of the scale, it does break one's suspension of disbelief. Or, if you want to maintain that suspension, then you better not quote what can be "realistic" as a basis for anything.

Who says Shep was the projectile that smashed the ferocrete? He could have been knocked back into a pile of rubble which was caused by the citadel breaking apart. This is equally plausible, and would avoid Shepard being torn to shreds.

Edit: Typo

Modifié par k.lalh, 28 janvier 2013 - 07:57 .

[InvincibleHero]

Well people can argue science or unrealism all they want (I know I have) but the in-game evidence shows Shepard doesn't lose his head or arms and is hurled away by the force of the blast. You can speculate why the game just shows it as a fact of the universe. Why doesn't matter because it happened. If it turns out he lives from it, you can consider it silly or whatever.

The game cannot explain everything and you don't need to connect every dot to be satisfied. In real life do you get explanations for every event you witness. nope. Some people have fell extreme distances to land relatively unscathed while others fell mere feet and die from injuries. It's a game not a post-graduate thesis where evrything should be justifed with evidence.

[Anduin The Grey]

anorling wrote...

Anduin The Grey wrote...

Archonsg wrote...

Lets look at facts.
Shepard was caught in an explosion. This is not in question.
So how powerful was the kinetic momentum force at the location where Shepard was found?
Taking a cue from the broken rubble, Concrete requires roughly 5 mega pascals or about 700psi to cut a 150mm x 150mm x 150mm un-reinforced cube.

For Megastructures of size like that of the Citadel, reinforced concrete would be used, though in the MEU, we have "Ferocrete" of which actual properties are unknown. But, it would be logical it would be magnitudes in term of strength, tensile load as well as elasplasticy.

Now coming back to the rubble, we know you need at least 700 psi to crack un-reinforced concrete, we know it only takes about 17 psi to crack a human skull, much less to severe human weak points such as elbow joints and the neck and we know the "Ferocrete" is far more stronger than even reinforced concrete.

In other words, that explosion would have this happen in sequence, Shepard's arm that was exposed at the elbow where it meets the part of the arm armor still intact and Shepard's head and neck where he doesn't have any protection are first sheared off from his body.

Then the joints of his limbs are sheared off leaving the torso more or less intact.
Well actually, "intact" is only relative since it would suffer immense kinetic force transferal through the armor.

Shepard's organs and intestines are more or less pulverized.

Bones, his entire skeletal structure will suffer impact stress. Very likely shattering multiple locations including his spine.

And of course with his head and arm missing, bleed out in about a minute.

That is reality.
For anyone who wants to trump the reality card. You either accept this or discard it and in doing so, all arguments about the game being "realistic" altogether.
You can't have it both ways.
And yes, this is a common war injury.

This is a case where the writers thought what is "cool" trumping what is realistic. Unfortunately, it goes so far past the "wtf?!" end of the scale, it does break one's suspension of disbelief. Or, if you want to maintain that suspension, then you better not quote what can be "realistic" as a basis for anything.

Two word response, Project Lazarus.

Project Lazarus was silly, yes. But that is another discussion.
Now we're discussing the impossibility of Shepard surviving the Citadel explosion.

Well, if you want to moot a story based on impossibilities, better start from the beginning no? And if not, why not? Which will probably leave us in the realm of the very possible, in this case, suspension of disbelief.

Take Twighlight, utter pants if you listen to some however it made a lot of people very rich and famous to boot and whether you like ME3 or not just like Twighlighters and I imagine anti-twilighters if there is such a thing? Preference to any particular fiction is purely subjective which has nothing to do with what could or could not be possible in a science fiction setting.