223 réponses à ce sujet

[Smeffects]

chidingewe8036 wrote...

The starboy is in the image of the child because the reapers are attempting to use shepard's guilt and remorse against him. They are playing upon his emotions to guide him to a decision that ultimately benefits them. This should be easy to understand folks why else would he be in the image of the child and part of Shepard's dream sequences?

He is NOT just some random kid that shows up in all of Shepard's dreams he was placed there for a reason folks. I mean come on he is the only child we see in the Shepard's story that should raise some flags right there that he is of some type of importance.

No that raised some flags to me as forced personnification actually. Couple of my shepards wouldnt have gave a rats ass about the dead kid. They called him the butcher of torfan for a reason. I killed every single innocent or not so innocent i could find, my shepard knew sacrafice is innevitable and mostly did not care as long as the job is done. This was forced upon my shepard.

[dorktainian]

TurianRebel212 wrote...



Ding. Ding. Ding. Okay lets go a little further. 

Why would Cerberus be building a Human Reaper? Who would tell them to do such a thing? Oh wait. One more. What is the end goal for the reapers at the end of Each Cycle? 

1.  who knows.  Tim is indoctrinated.  
2.  oh hang on..... for the reapers.   
3.  a reaper?

Modifié par dorktainian, 29 janvier 2013 - 02:11 .

[TurianRebel212]

dorktainian wrote...

TurianRebel212 wrote...

dorktainian wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

TurianRebel212 wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

Davik Kang wrote...

Shaani wrote...

Yes, it is all based on "things that appear in the game itself".  Like the idea that a dead Shepard would visit Afterlife, most if it is themeing done poorly, or taken out of context, or simply wildly misconstrued.
...

There are no new ideas.  People have come to the same conclusion in other games. Using much the same methods.

squallsdead.com/

The ending does involve Indoctornation.  It gives wiggle room for this sort of thing.  I'm not surprised to see it there, but I am surprised that people keep pretending it's the author's intent when nothing much actually supports that.

While I see where you're coming from, I don't think you're giving the theory enough credit.  It's not like people thought "ah wait, there was that thing called Indoctrination in ME1, right?  Maybe that explains it all!"  Indoctrination is specifically mentioned repeatedly in the penultimate conversation in the game.  Both Shepard and Anderson accuse TIM of being indoctrinated for the very reason that he believes he can control the Reapers.  So to claim that the authors never considered that the next scene could be construed as indoctrination seems bizarre.

no, it's just the way the advanced creatures talk, of course it can be exploited and is by both levi and catalyst. There's  simple reason that is, as one invented the other and then it invented the reaperships..and the IT crowd confused by the dreamish nature of that communication and rely on the bastardization to prove something that doesn't exist.

Leviathan proves that a reaper can enter sheps mind. It also proves that the reapers perfected the thrall of indoctrination through the many cycles. Also, proves that the Reapers cannot be controled.

Why do you think Shep was resurrected?

because cerberus is building a human reaper.

Ding. Ding. Ding. Okay lets go a little further. 

Why would Cerberus be building a Human Reaper? Who would tell them to do such a thing? Oh wait. One more. What is the end goal for the reapers at the end of Each Cycle? 

answer - a reaper.  they are building a human reaper tho.  'sanctuary'?  'cronos station'  the cerberus lab (images of the human reaper)

Okay. Let me play devil's advocate a little more. Who is the boss of Cerberus? What does he want to do with the Reapers? What group does Cerberus mirror in the paste cycle? Why does Cerberus try and derail the cure for the genophage? Why does Vendetta lock himself down when Kai Leng comes in proximity and Thessia?

[Wayning_Star]

Smeffects wrote...

CoolioThane wrote...

Smeffects wrote...

CoolioThane wrote...

Some people think the Crucible is a trap placed by the Reapers. Y'know...making its existence make sense and why the Reapers let us position it...

Oh then how you counter my point about the fact that we learn during the game that even the prothean curcible project was destroyed... BY THE REAPERS? They sure worked hard to stop the trap from making them beat the prothean sooner?

Who do we learn that from?

Also, it was never implemented because there was infighting between groups who wanted to :

i) Destroy
ii) Control - these seperatists were indoctrinated

To me that's a pretty big POSITIVE for it being a trap/Control being an indoctrinated choice but meh, just me

brb off for a run

If its a trap, the indoctrinated wouldnt have destroy the prothean crucible... they would try to do exactly what the illusive man did. Tried to get it to dock as well and use it for himself. Thats exactly the problem of this part of the crucible is a trap or something the reaper wants. This cycle is the total opposite of the previous one?

Literal story solve this problem, both cycle the reapers dont want the crucible. But instead in literal, its really just reaper being pretty damn stupid evil guys. I mean i guess its forgivable, most story resolves in such a way.

The catalyst already controls the MEU, if it wanted to it could just wipe out the organics in space easily. There is NO need to 'trap' anyone, that's a done deal, has been that way for about ever.

Why would it allow Shep up there, it calls him/her up there, once that crucible were attatched, then Shep heads up to do business. This stuff is all dreamscape, as Shep is on the ground in pile of rubble, out for the count. It's set up that way, as that is the ONLY way to directly communicate with the catalyst. IT folks get all confused by that necessity and assign intent because of that dreamscape reality. They 'superimpose' their belief system ONTO the story/game. In my view, attempting indoctrination on fans, more that any Catalyst providing deception on Shepard.

IT is a mind game for fans who wish to believe IT.

I seen that the first time I investigated the theory.

[TurianRebel212]

dorktainian wrote...

TurianRebel212 wrote...



Ding. Ding. Ding. Okay lets go a little further. 

Why would Cerberus be building a Human Reaper? Who would tell them to do such a thing? Oh wait. One more. What is the end goal for the reapers at the end of Each Cycle? 

1.  who knows.  Tim is indoctrinated.  
2.  oh hang on..... for the reapers.   
3.  a reaper?

Damn. This kids goin' places. ;)

Modifié par TurianRebel212, 29 janvier 2013 - 02:15 .

[Smeffects]

dorktainian wrote...
answer - a reaper.  they are building a human reaper tho.  'sanctuary'?  'cronos station'  the cerberus lab (images of the human reaper)

None of these missions or bases shows that a human reaper is being constructed at any of them. Cronos station use the human reaper remains to function, thats why the human reaper images are there. After your intervention at every of these location, alliance would have easily found the construction of something massive like a reaper. Sure it could be on another location... but again there is no relation to the story with cerberus. The only thing pointed out with every single cerberus mission is that TIM wants control. Thats his main goal, the game is pretty obvious about it.

Again if as the op points out ITers dont want a new ending... why even include something that never happened anyway like the creation of a cerberus human reaper? Its not part of the story and that story ended? Does it matter?

[Wayning_Star]

The Catalyst Controls:

the citadel

the relays

unknown indoctrinated forces

cerberus

hence the MEU.. it could just TURN OFF the MEU if it chose to.

[Codename_Code]

Indoctrination is the main enemy in mass effect, you don't even get to see much of the reapers lasers until ME3, but indoctrination is everywhere in all 3 games. If you play the mass effect saga, paying attention and getting into it, you know that just right at the end Shepard will have to face indoctrination, there is absolutely no doubt in my mind they planned this, even if Casey hudson comes here and disproves it I wont believe him.

They set this up, and they even confirmed it :
" And even in November the gameplay team was still experimenting with an endgame sequence where players would suddenly lose control of Shepard's movement and fall under full reaper control. (This sequence was dropped because the gameplay mechanic proved too troublesome to implement alongside dialogue choices) "

they confirmed IT right there, but scraped the game-play mechanic in favor to a more "artistic" rendition of the scene. There is just too much evidence in all 3 games, and too much nonsense in the literals point of view.

Of course, they could leave it open, Shepard alive in the ruble forever, and we will never see how she stopped the reapers, and that is the big insult here. If they do that, they will be punishing us for getting the point of the ending, and rewarding the people that is not so involved.

The whole Mass effect saga told us that 2+2 is 4, the kid is saying is 5, but is 4. Indoctrination theory is not fan fiction, is pure logical thinking and lore analysis.

[dorktainian]

1. Tim (although theoretically - the reapers)
2. Control. (achieve the impossible)
3. The breakaway faction of the protheans. (yay - cerberus Mk 1.)
4. because the krogan are a threat. (they hit hard)
5. it senses indoctrination. (Kylie Leng)

it controls pretty much everything - thats why the reapers always win.

Modifié par dorktainian, 29 janvier 2013 - 02:19 .

[Smeffects]

Wayning_Star wrote...

The catalyst already controls the MEU, if it wanted to it could just wipe out the organics in space easily. There is NO need to 'trap' anyone, that's a done deal, has been that way for about ever.

Why would it allow Shep up there, it calls him/her up there, once that crucible were attatched, then Shep heads up to do business. This stuff is all dreamscape, as Shep is on the ground in pile of rubble, out for the count. It's set up that way, as that is the ONLY way to directly communicate with the catalyst. IT folks get all confused by that necessity and assign intent because of that dreamscape reality. They 'superimpose' their belief system ONTO the story/game. In my view, attempting indoctrination on fans, more that any Catalyst providing deception on Shepard.

IT is a mind game for fans who wish to believe IT.

I seen that the first time I investigated the theory.

Very true. But as i said IT or Not, both have pretty big holes and roll eyes moments in the main arc.

[masster blaster]

I am sorry, but I DOUBT that the Reapers had NO idea that this cycle was building the crucible. Why because if you killed the ME1 Rachni Queen, then a new Queen that the Reapers made will sabatoge the crucible. Yet funny part is that the Indoctrinated Protheans destroyed the sabatoged the crucible right. All because they wanted to CONTROL the Reapers.

TIM wants to control the Reapers, yet why does he not want to sabatoge the Crucible? He want's to use it? I am sorry but why is it that TIM wants to use the crucible if he is Indoctrinated which he is, if the Indoctrinated Protheans wanted to use the Crucible to control the Reapers, only to sabatoge the Crucible in the end?

Also wouldn't the Reapers order TIM/ their troops to locate the crucible and Destroy it? I mean come on you mean to tell me again that the Reapers did not even know where the crucible is, yet TIM knows where the Prothean VI is, and the Reapers so happen to begin landing on Thessia just in the nick of time.

Seems legit right.

Modifié par masster blaster, 29 janvier 2013 - 02:24 .

[Davik Kang]

Wayning_Star wrote...
The catalyst already controls the MEU, if it wanted to it could just wipe out the organics in space easily. There is NO need to 'trap' anyone, that's a done deal, has been that way for about ever.

Why would it allow Shep up there, it calls him/her up there, once that crucible were attatched, then Shep heads up to do business. This stuff is all dreamscape, as Shep is on the ground in pile of rubble, out for the count. It's set up that way, as that is the ONLY way to directly communicate with the catalyst. IT folks get all confused by that necessity and assign intent because of that dreamscape reality. They 'superimpose' their belief system ONTO the story/game. In my view, attempting indoctrination on fans, more that any Catalyst providing deception on Shepard.

IT is a mind game for fans who wish to believe IT.

I seen that the first time I investigated the theory.

I'm not really sure what you're saying here... it seems as though the only person supersimposing anything onto the game's story is you.  Dreamscape?  Are you saying the end is a dream but it's not indoctrination?  It's an odd interpretation but there may well be others who agree...

[Smeffects]

Wayning_Star wrote...

The Catalyst Controls:

the citadel

the relays

unknown indoctrinated forces

cerberus

hence the MEU.. it could just TURN OFF the MEU if it chose to.

 Most of these are not actually true.

- if it control the citadel... what is sovereign doing?

- the relays, why are they still open in mass effect 3, even when over earth?

- Indoctrination is not direct control, more like suggestive, but its close.

- Same for cerberus, as any indoctrinated agents. TIM wasent indoctrinated until the reaper implants, he took the risk to attempt his goal, control. The catalyst was not in direct control.

[dorktainian]

"grubas posted:

From Mass Effect 3: Final Hours:

On Deciding the End of the Game:
The illusive man boss fight had been scrapped... but there was still much debate. 'One night Walters scribbled down some thought on various ways the game could end with the line "Lots of speculation for Everyone!" at the bottom of the page.'

In truth the final bits of dialogue were debated right up until the end of 2011. Martin Sheen's voice-over session for the illusive man, originally scheduled for August, was delayed until mid-November so the writers would have more time to finesse the ending.

And even in November the gameplay team was still experimenting with an endgame sequence where players would suddenly lose control of Shepard's movement and fall under full reaper control.

(This sequence was dropped because the gameplay mechanic proved too troublesome to implement alongside dialogue choices)."

note - the idea shep is under reaper control (indoctrinated) was not dropped.  

Modifié par dorktainian, 29 janvier 2013 - 02:31 .

[TurianRebel212]

Smeffects wrote...

dorktainian wrote...
answer - a reaper.  they are building a human reaper tho.  'sanctuary'?  'cronos station'  the cerberus lab (images of the human reaper)

None of these missions or bases shows that a human reaper is being constructed at any of them. Cronos station use the human reaper remains to function, thats why the human reaper images are there. After your intervention at every of these location, alliance would have easily found the construction of something massive like a reaper. Sure it could be on another location... but again there is no relation to the story with cerberus. The Mnly thing pointed out with every single cerberus mission is that TIM wants control. Thats his main goal, the game is pretty obvious about it.

Again if as the op points out ITers dont want a new ending... why even include something that never happened anyway like the creation of a cerberus human reaper? Its not part of the story and that story ended? Does it matter?

If you choose to give TIM the collector base in ME2 the human reaper will be at Cronos being rebuilt. TIM is indoctrinated. He has been for a while. The reapers want to harvest humanity to create the new Reaper in human form. The end result of the cycle is to create a new 'perfect' reaper. Who is the Avatar of humanity? What does Harby what with Shep? Who created Harby? Who wants control? Who wanted synthesis and symbiotic relationship with the reapers? What do these people have in common. The more you try and disprove the theory the more the theory grows. That's why it's such a good interpretation of the end game. But it's still just a theory and interpretation not a fact. 

[Wayning_Star]

Davik Kang wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...
The catalyst already controls the MEU, if it wanted to it could just wipe out the organics in space easily. There is NO need to 'trap' anyone, that's a done deal, has been that way for about ever.

Why would it allow Shep up there, it calls him/her up there, once that crucible were attatched, then Shep heads up to do business. This stuff is all dreamscape, as Shep is on the ground in pile of rubble, out for the count. It's set up that way, as that is the ONLY way to directly communicate with the catalyst. IT folks get all confused by that necessity and assign intent because of that dreamscape reality. They 'superimpose' their belief system ONTO the story/game. In my view, attempting indoctrination on fans, more that any Catalyst providing deception on Shepard.

IT is a mind game for fans who wish to believe IT.

I seen that the first time I investigated the theory.

I'm not really sure what you're saying here... it seems as though the only person supersimposing anything onto the game's story is you.  Dreamscape?  Are you saying the end is a dream but it's not indoctrination?  It's an odd interpretation but there may well be others who agree...

no, it 'seems like' a dream, as that is the only way to communicate directly with the catalsyt entity. It's what threw off the IT theorists. They took that as the basis for their theory an ran with it, hunting out every experience and superimposing those onto their "idea" of Sheps indoctrination, giving them an illusion of the win and their version of the ultlimate canon ending to the story. They've basically indoctrinated themselves... The IT is indoctrination, here in realtime.

Weird but true.

[The Heretic of Time]

Please discuss the IT at the IT group. IT threads are not allowed on the ME3 boards and are considered spam.

*reported*

Modifié par Heretic_Hanar, 29 janvier 2013 - 02:32 .

[Wayning_Star]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Please discuss the IT at the IT group. IT threads are not allowed on the ME3 boards and are considered spam.

*reported*

thanks hanar..

[Smeffects]

TurianRebel212 wrote...

If you choose to give TIM the collector base in ME2 the human reaper will be at Cronos being rebuilt. TIM is indoctrinated. He has been for a while. The reapers want to harvest humanity to create the new Reaper in human form. The end result of the cycle is to create a new 'perfect' reaper. Who is the Avatar of humanity? What does Harby what with Shep? Who created Harby? Who wants control? Who wanted synthesis and symbiotic relationship with the reapers? What do these people have in common. The more you try and disprove the theory the more the theory grows. That's why it's such a good interpretation of the end game. But it's still just a theory and interpretation not a fact. 

Again even with your interpretation it still conflict with mass effect 1. Reapers dont seems to care about synthesis or symbiotic relationship, infact thats what they want people like saren to believe in order to control them with less indoctrionation side effects. Those are not symbiotic, thats control,  quickly discarded after use in every cycle. They are used only as tool, theres no synthesis going on there. Controlling someone like shepard is useful, but not because he is the one, simply because he is the hero. Again not synthesis or anything there, simply a mean to achieve the cycler quicker. A tool to be discarded.

The reapers wanted to build a human reaper, like they try in every cycle. As show in ME2, it doesent exactly matter which human they pick, just needs alot of them. But like i said TIM arc does not much involve with this. Aside from the human reaper remain, that appear in both keeping and destroying the collector base actually, on cronos station. It is used as a power source and computer, nothing is being rebuilt there. There is no hint that it was ever cerberus goal. Every single mission is about control, control of their troops, control of reaper troops and ultimatly control of the reapers themsleves.

If the op is correct that ITer dont want new ending, it doesent matter invisible secret goals that was never part or written in the story, as it ended already.

Modifié par Smeffects, 29 janvier 2013 - 02:41 .

[Davik Kang]

Wayning_Star wrote...
no, it 'seems like' a dream, as that is the only way to communicate directly with the catalsyt entity. It's what threw off the IT theorists. They took that as the basis for their theory an ran with it, hunting out every experience and superimposing those onto their "idea" of Sheps indoctrination, giving them an illusion of the win and their version of the ultlimate canon ending to the story. They've basically indoctrinated themselves... The IT is indoctrination, here in realtime.

Weird but true.

Lol ok, IT is based on the "dreamscape".  You're talking about "the win" and that the Indoctrination Theory is real life indoctrination of people who actually think about and question stuff...

Perhaps your battle against IT is becoming a little too personal?  

[lex0r11]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Please discuss the IT at the IT group. IT threads are not allowed on the ME3 boards and are considered spam.

*reported*

Indoctrination! Indoctrination! Indoctrination!

Lock! Lock! Lock!

Modifié par lex0r11, 29 janvier 2013 - 02:39 .

[dorktainian]

Wayning_Star wrote...

They've basically indoctrinated themselves... The IT is indoctrination, here in realtime.

Weird but true.

    

No.  IT has nothing to do with that at all.  jeez research it.

[dorktainian]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Please discuss the IT here. IT threads are my favorite things  

*supported*

 :wub::wub: 

Modifié par dorktainian, 29 janvier 2013 - 02:39 .

[masster blaster]

Oh shut up HH. If these people wanted to report this thread they would have already done it.

[TurianRebel212]

Wayning_Star wrote...

Davik Kang wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...
The catalyst already controls the MEU, if it wanted to it could just wipe out the organics in space easily. There is NO need to 'trap' anyone, that's a done deal, has been that way for about ever.

Why would it allow Shep up there, it calls him/her up there, once that crucible were attatched, then Shep heads up to do business. This stuff is all dreamscape, as Shep is on the ground in pile of rubble, out for the count. It's set up that way, as that is the ONLY way to directly communicate with the catalyst. IT folks get all confused by that necessity and assign intent because of that dreamscape reality. They 'superimpose' their belief system ONTO the story/game. In my view, attempting indoctrination on fans, more that any Catalyst providing deception on Shepard.

IT is a mind game for fans who wish to believe IT.

I seen that the first time I investigated the theory.

I'm not really sure what you're saying here... it seems as though the only person supersimposing anything onto the game's story is you.  Dreamscape?  Are you saying the end is a dream but it's not indoctrination?  It's an odd interpretation but there may well be others who agree...

no, it 'seems like' a dream, as that is the only way to communicate directly with the catalsyt entity. It's what threw off the IT theorists. They took that as the basis for their theory an ran with it, hunting out every experience and superimposing those onto their "idea" of Sheps indoctrination, giving them an illusion of the win and their version of the ultlimate canon ending to the story. They've basically indoctrinated themselves... The IT is indoctrination, here in realtime.

Weird but true.

No. The dreams in the game. Sheps dreams. The three dreams. Are how the reapers communicate. You know the whole oily shadow thing and whispers in the dark. Oh yeah, and the kids in the dream. But meh... You could say. It's PTSD and nerves right. Cause shepard really has PTSD and is really unstable. Just a real unstable guy. He's kinda burned out. Right? He can't fight. He panics. He has incredible bouts of dread. He refuses to fight the reapers. He feels keyed up. He feels numb. Those are PTSD symptoms. Not the dreams. I'm not superimposing any ideas on you. Just another point of view. Believe what you will. I too think you can take the endings for what they are- really bad writing. But is it so crazy to believe bioware is not that bad?

Plus, it's fun to talk about this stuff. ME is pretty special that way. 

Modifié par TurianRebel212, 29 janvier 2013 - 02:42 .