223 réponses à ce sujet

[Wayning_Star]

[/quote]

I bet no one here actually knows who started the IT...never will either.[/quote]

Byne started the threads on BSN. That's pretty common knowledge mate.

ITers believe Bioware started the IT 

[/quote]

can't be proven, just like the IT. It's trollish in gender and trollish in reality. Completely false assumption.

Thats the Joke, get it?

[Smeffects]

Obitim wrote...

Smeffects wrote...

CoolioThane wrote...

The indoctrinated protheans DID want to use the Crucible to 'control' the Reapers...

And another indotrinated faction destroyed it. As i explained about synthesis idea, its not something they support directly. Sovereign use the idea of synthesis on saren in order to control him with less indoctrination, to not debilitate him. He is a tool, he is not a symbiote. TIM is the same, the let him run with his idea of victory, control. This is not what they wanted all along, but he is opposing you, divide and conquer. He is but a tool to weaken people. As javik explain the cerberus like faction of his cycle was.  Thats why other indoctrinated people destroyed the crucible. Because indoctrination doesent give 1 goal to everyone and there are many level of indoctrination. That doesent show they want the curcible used, just that they want to devide as much as they can to conquer easily.

But what evidence in game do you have of that?

Every single dialogue in ME1/2/3.

[OdanUrr]

I wonder how long it'll take before this thread gets locked.

Modifié par OdanUrr, 29 janvier 2013 - 03:49 .

[Wayning_Star]

Some very inventive trolls are haveing a field day reading posts on the BSN, just waiting for the Mods to take action..then the laughing really kicks in...

[CoolioThane]

Smeffects wrote...

CoolioThane wrote...

The Crucible itself can be said to be a "tool". Think about it, the Reapers are getting all the races to put all their eggs in one basket. Easy to crush. Noone is saying indoctrination is a simple, one-goal process, though it kind of is - in that it furthers the Reapers' goals.

Again, it's guessing. We don't know whether the Crucible is a trap or not, as we don't know if the ending is true or if IT is. It all depends on the interpretation, and as this is the case, I don't think either of us are going to convince the other! 

Which i also explain in my first post. If their idea for the crucible is not a trap, but a way to waste ressources, they had a much better way to do so once the citadel is captured. Its closing the relays. Its not like they had any chance to lose to our cycle aside from the crucible. Theres thousands of  reapers according to the codex, the total galaxy fleet doesent even have 100 dreadnaught before they attacked, how many were lost before the sword fleet?

Why I said "can be said"  Reapers are Sadists. We know this. They love destroying the spirit ("No soul, replaced by tech" et al.). What better way than by giving the peoples of the Galaxy this one hope of the Crucible beating the Reapers....and "BOOM" it does nothing. Spirits are defeated, the hopelessness, the tears taste good.

As I said, we're not going to convince each other lol that's obvious 

[Wayning_Star]

Indoctrination sucks!

later folks, sorry to reign in on the fun..but...Shep feels obligated to teach.

I will no longer respond to IT threads.

[CoolioThane]

[quote]Wayning_Star wrote...

[/quote]

I bet no one here actually knows who started the IT...never will either.[/quote]

Byne started the threads on BSN. That's pretty common knowledge mate.

ITers believe Bioware started the IT 

[/quote]

can't be proven, just like the IT. It's trollish in gender and trollish in reality. Completely false assumption.

Thats the Joke, get it?[/quote]

Byne creating the threads? If you look on the first post of them, it's Byne's name 

IT is trollish? I believe those who believe in the IT interpretation love the game, right? Nothing troll-ish about that! 

Completely false? Again with definites?  IT is as valid as literal

[CoolioThane]

Wayning_Star wrote...

Indoctrination sucks!

later folks, sorry to reign in on the fun..but...Shep feels obligated to teach.

I will no longer respond to IT threads.

But you've put forward such good points and not been dismissive/arrogant at all...[/sarcasm]

Indoctrination sucks? Yeah, it's the Reapers' biggest weapon, of course it's bad for us! 

[The Heretic of Time]

simonphoenix wrote...

at some point the last piece of DLC is going to be released, if it is not IT then some people will have to accept that it was never intended to be a part of the narrative.

Some people will still be in denial, even after the release of the final DLC. Some ITers will then move the goal post to ME4, claiming that ME4 will be the moment the IT will finally be revealed. Some of these ITers will take IT to their grave.

Modifié par Heretic_Hanar, 29 janvier 2013 - 03:55 .

[dorktainian]

people assume ITers are the haters.... thats far from the truth in fact. we love the game.

we look for things other people miss (like the shuttle picking shep & co up in london being a cerberus shuttle) and theorise why these things exist..examine the reasoning behind the game. Try to understand things that casual players might overlook (the dreams and the oily shadows, the dark roots, the questions about why things exist within the game, the reaper on cronos station, why cerberus was pulping humans, why so many people write off mass effect 2 when it is vitally important to the plot).

[Davik Kang]

Smeffects wrote...
Thats why they restrained IT to their group. They arent banning people, just closing threads. Again they did not ever legitimize IT has an interpretation of the game, they simply never stated otherwise directly. Can be removal of IT here be some kind of answer? Who knows? Unless they finally speak one way or another, only their actions matter.

well, no, the events and dialogue of the game matter quite a lot too.

simonphoenix wrote...

at some point the last piece of DLC is going to be released, if it is not IT then some people will have to accept that it was never intended to be a part of the narrative.

Well not really, it is clear indoctrination is part of the narrative, the question is to what extent.  It is perfectly reasonable to suppose that indoctrination wasn't involved at the end and your Shepard can Control the Reapers as a master AI.  It's similarly reasonable to suppose that the Child was an illusion brought on by an indoctrination attempt, and that he is trying to bend you to his will.  I guess a lot of it depends on what you take from the final conversation with TIM, and why you would have that conversation on the Citadel, 5 mins from the End, instead of on Cronos.

Nothing's definitive, it's just a possibility.  But the involvement of indoctrination in the narrative doesn't depend on post-ending DLC.

[Sebby]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

simonphoenix wrote...

at some point the last piece of DLC is going to be released, if it is not IT then some people will have to accept that it was never intended to be a part of the narrative.

Some people will still be in denial, even after the release of the final DLC. Some ITers will then move the goalpost to ME4, claiming that ME4 will be the moment the IT will finally be revealed. Some of these ITers will take IT to their grave.

Yeah, there will always be some ITers around. The best analogue for this would be those isolated Japanese holdouts in the pacific who still thought the war was going on well into the 70s.

[The Heretic of Time]

dorktainian wrote...

people assume ITers are the haters.... thats far from the truth in fact. we love the game.

We'll see how much you really love this game when the final DLC is released and it isn't IT.

Tell me dork, what if BioWare came out tomorrow and admit that the IT was never true, and never will be, how much will you love ME3 after that, hmmm?


You claim to love the game, but in reality you only love your own headcanon.

Modifié par Heretic_Hanar, 29 janvier 2013 - 03:58 .

[Smeffects]

CoolioThane wrote...

Why I said "can be said"  Reapers are Sadists. We know this. They love destroying the spirit ("No soul, replaced by tech" et al.). What better way than by giving the peoples of the Galaxy this one hope of the Crucible beating the Reapers....and "BOOM" it does nothing. Spirits are defeated, the hopelessness, the tears taste good.

As I said, we're not going to convince each other lol that's obvious 

But thats anti thematic of mass effect 1. Reapers are not sadist enough to make war effort mistakes, like leaving relays open. As far as we know they always did this as soon as they have citadel control. Closing the relay and stoping sword fleet before it can even enter combat is even more hopelessness anyway. Much less reaper cusuality as well. From an enemy that takes 50000 to build a single of their own, it sounds pretty short sighted to risk waste even 10 of your capital ship in a battle, even if you win? That will take 10 more cycles to replenish.

[OdanUrr]

dorktainian wrote...

people assume ITers are the haters.... thats far from the truth in fact. we love the game.

we look for things other people miss (like the shuttle picking shep & co up in london being a cerberus shuttle) and theorise why these things exist..examine the reasoning behind the game. Try to understand things that casual players might overlook (the dreams and the oily shadows, the dark roots, the questions about why things exist within the game, the reaper on cronos station, why cerberus was pulping humans, why so many people write off mass effect 2 when it is vitally important to the plot).

There is such a thing as overanalyzing something. On a different note, I'm not sure I agree with your generalization that people who don't accept IT are "casual players."

[Fawx9]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

dorktainian wrote...

people assume ITers are the haters.... thats far from the truth in fact. we love the game.

We'll see how much you really love this game when the final DLC is released and it isn't IT.

Tell me dork, what if BioWare came out tomorrow and admit that the IT was never true, and never will be, how much will you love ME3 after that, hmmm?


You claim to love the game, but in reality you only love your own headcanon.

That's a loaded question, and one that shouldn't be answered right away even if BioWare did come out and state that. 

[dorktainian]

Fawx9 wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

dorktainian wrote...

people assume ITers are the haters.... thats far from the truth in fact. we love the game.

We'll see how much you really love this game when the final DLC is released and it isn't IT.

Tell me dork, what if BioWare came out tomorrow and admit that the IT was never true, and never will be, how much will you love ME3 after that, hmmm?


You claim to love the game, but in reality you only love your own headcanon.

That's a loaded question, and one that shouldn't be answered right away even if BioWare did come out and state that. 

of course it's a loaded question.  what do you expect?

[lex0r11]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

dorktainian wrote...

people assume ITers are the haters.... thats far from the truth in fact. we love the game.

We'll see how much you really love this game when the final DLC is released and it isn't IT.

Tell me dork, what if BioWare came out tomorrow and admit that the IT was never true, and never will be, how much will you love ME3 after that, hmmm?


You claim to love the game, but in reality you only love your own headcanon.

What is with you? Why do you want to turn other peoples positivity into hate so badly?

Let them think about the game what they want.

[Smeffects]

Fawx9 wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

dorktainian wrote...

people assume ITers are the haters.... thats far from the truth in fact. we love the game.

We'll see how much you really love this game when the final DLC is released and it isn't IT.

Tell me dork, what if BioWare came out tomorrow and admit that the IT was never true, and never will be, how much will you love ME3 after that, hmmm?


You claim to love the game, but in reality you only love your own headcanon.

That's a loaded question, and one that shouldn't be answered right away even if BioWare did come out and state that. 

Its a legitimate question though, how well could you handle those endings if you were stripped of IT? If bioware did state it, im pretty sure the IT group would implode, or literally put fingers in their ears and yell bla bla bla. Then probably say something like this: IT was always intended, bioware only dismissed it to calm the masses. How much have you come to peace with the endings?

Their actions will speak more then their words anyway. It will with the DLC and it will with the next mass effect. How much action will it take. In my opinion if the next mass effect is also a shovel of shallow ****, youll eventually all come to peace on that. Then we will all be brothers trought suffering.

Modifié par Smeffects, 29 janvier 2013 - 04:08 .

[3DandBeyond]

OP, I tend to agree with you here. I think IT-bashing is just another side effect of poor endings that don't fit the story.

The problem is that some see it as denying the story BW created and merely head canoning your own. And I say, "so what?" A lot of the people that say this are the same ones that have told people to head canon what happens to torso (gasper) Shepard. Well, pick one-people are allowed to imagine things or they are not allowed to.

The other complaints come from those who say that if IT was true then BW did not include a real ending in the game. Well, fair enough, but those who say that are like me-I don't think BW did and that's true whether or not I allow myself to believe IT.

Then some say that the EC proves IT is not true. Well, where's an imagination when you need one? It does no such thing. So the EC provides longer versions of the same endings plus one. You could say that Refuse/Reject proves IT is untrue, but even that is not so. If you use your imagination then any choice could still be indoctrinated Shepard, even Refuse.

People will say Leviathan proves IT is untrue. No, it doesn't. Leviathan could even re-assert indoctrination. One could theorize that Leviathan planted a seed in Shepard's mind which then created the kid.

I view it all like this. If you indeed think the endings suck (I do), and that BW has yet to end the game satisfactorily (I do), then IT could be one way to do that. And I'd embrace it if that happened. If you indeed think the endings are ok, great, fun stuff, and all that, then what's the harm in the reality being indoctrination? It's BW's story, so if IT was a part of it, then it's a part of BW's story. Perhaps what worries some people is that these choices they've believed in and fought to explain may indeed fall apart like a house of cards in a windstorm. Well, that's a part of the problem when you begin to ally yourself so totally with an idea in a story which the dev is not done with yet.

Sure, the DLC may do nothing to address this. It's likely it won't. But that does not mean that IT is not just as valid as all the head canoning hoops people go through to explain why these choices are so good. Indoctrination permeated the game, and yet the reasons for making one of these choices, in the way they are presented, did not.

And I am not someone that ever wanted an indoctrination-type ending. Unless that ending showed Shepard reasserting him/herself and becoming indoctrination-free and then smashing the reapers to pieces.

[Ithurael]

CoolioThane wrote...

simonphoenix wrote...

at some point the last piece of DLC is going to be released, if it is not IT then some people will have to accept that it was never intended to be a part of the narrative.

Not necessarily. Until there is a canon end for ME3, we will never know. If there is never a canon ending, and we get no sequels, IT will be just as valid 

A valid way to interpret the ending. I personally prefer closure to no closure for trilogies. But if some don't want/need closure I suppose IT is the cup of tea for them.

We are all left with the breath scene forever like it or not.

[Grubas]

Smeffects wrote...

Its a legitimate question though, how well could you handle those endings if you were stripped of IT? ...

Its nothing but a rhetorical question. Bioware will do nothing like that. They made the ending open for interpretation on purpose. They will not continue Shepards fate anyway. 

You can argue as much as you want. You will never sort it out. 

Modifié par Grubas, 29 janvier 2013 - 04:13 .

[Shaani]

3DandBeyond wrote...

The problem is that some see it as denying the story BW created and merely head canoning your own. And I say, "so what?"

For me?  It's frustration from pre-EE arguments.

I've had plenty of people rather aggressively try to push IT on me, along with a host of other absurd theories ("Bioware hired Buzz Aldrian, a real man who really did walk on the moon, to give a speech about space exploration!  Only he's really playing a caveman 10,000 years in the future and his speech is about how nobody can ever explore space, because you blew space up with the Crucible").

As someone who easily guessed 90% of what was in the EE long before it came out using the astonding power of knowing how stories work, I lost my temper the 50th time someone told me "And it was all a dream" is a brillaint twist.

[Chris Priestly]

Please join one of the IT discussion groups to discuss this topic.


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