354 réponses à ce sujet

[Wayning_Star]

Auintus wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

actually I would consider control more of a compromise as destroy is a type of capitulation with/to the chaos, synthesis is the most extreme choice and the most potent. Also to harangue the Leviathan who started this whole mess to begin with. They need to know more than anyone humans will not take thralldom lightly, if ever. In the views of a total renegade Shepard.

refuse is an option to permit others to make the choices,as the ones available are unconstitutional.

I meant compromise with your enemy. Though I won't deny that Destroy is definitely a renegade move. For one, it's red. More importantly, the Ruthless background indicates that Shepard executes surrendering Batarians or something of the sort, yes? When you're choosing to activate the Crucible, the Reapers are at your mercy. Destroy is execution. Much the same situation, when you boil it down.

actually destroy on seems renegade, it's actually a joiners response. The story inflicts it throughout, forcing Shep to take that tack..but in the end, the story come at Shep sidways. It's time to really go out on a limb. The destroy crowd becomes the status quo. Synthesis the outlaw choice. Control, going with the techno flow, not really changing but getting along with things that are. Compromise.

[Wayning_Star]

Auintus wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

Many of the anti synthesis posts are from trollish lurkers wanting to buzz up supporters. Just to get a reaction. From the posts it's fairly easy to tell rhetorical dis's and invectives.

I see. So..."Don't bother"?

It's just an observation, not an edict..lol Some I don't bother with myself, as it's futile, or more so, in effective, as they really don't care either way really. You could write your fingers to the bone and then get  a two word response for the effort.

[Auintus]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

The giant worm and giant metal cuttlefish are no where NEAR the same neighborhood as "In 5 seconds I can change the ENTIRE galaxy with green space radiation".

So basically... they could've just downloaded some psych books off the extranet and it accomplishes the same thing? Why do we need Synthesis then? Oh right, we don't.

The entire Quarian race had problems with the Geth? Really now? Let's see, we had those Quarians in the recordings who defended them, then we had those in the present that didn't want to fight. Then we had Tali and Korris. Huh... doesn't seem like EVERYONE had a problem with them.

And the end? That's the enemy laying out three sucky choices and letting YOU pick how YOU surrender. Go off the beaten path and act like you have a brain and the kid throws a hissy fit, shuts everything down, and continues to stomp on us even though he has his "perfect" solution right there.

...That was an, apparently failed, attempt a humor.

Not quite the same thing. Understanding the logic behind emotions doesn't help you understand emotions. Having someone explain something to you doesn't mean you'll understand it. Synthesis is a little more than that. Bends the mind to make it capable of understanding.

Yet the entire race went to war with them, hellbent of destroying the lot of them. Clearly nobody to any great issues with it.

He gives you three choices that each accomplish your goal. Destroying them is surrender? Control is surrender? I...you don't...you can't...that's not...
Act like you have a brain? Throwing away your only chance at survival is definitely not an inteligent move.

[Auintus]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

Gee, it's like he doesn't have 50,000 years of downtime to ponder these things. "Hmmm, i have this lightbulb. I know it creates light, but I simple don't have the power to do so. Wait... I saw planes for a very large battery not too long ago. Huh... I wonder if I could connect the two!"

It's insanity to believe that an AI, that has no reason to not think of better ways to solve the problem (because it's his mandate, and he already tried Synthesis before) over these long periods of time it takes for organics to get going again.

it's stupidity piled unto illogic.

It's trying to find it's own solution. Why would it be concerned about a device it had believed to be eradicated cycles ago?

[Auintus]

Wayning_Star wrote...

actually destroy on seems renegade, it's actually a joiners response. The story inflicts it throughout, forcing Shep to take that tack..but in the end, the story come at Shep sidways. It's time to really go out on a limb. The destroy crowd becomes the status quo. Synthesis the outlaw choice. Control, going with the techno flow, not really changing but getting along with things that are. Compromise.

I see. That actually makes some sense. More of a symbolic take on the Crucible choice, but definitely understandable.

[Ticonderoga117]

Auintus wrote...
It's trying to find it's own solution. Why would it be concerned about a device it had believed to be eradicated cycles ago?

Because it would help it use the devices it has now perhaps? You know, the devices that bring about the "perfect solution" of Synthesis?

Too logical? Thought so.

[Auintus]

Wayning_Star wrote...

It's just an observation, not an edict..lol Some I don't bother with myself, as it's futile, or more so, in effective, as they really don't care either way really. You could write your fingers to the bone and then get  a two word response for the effort.

Gotchicha. I don't really care much for the response. I just like having to think about it. Helps me understand my own decisions, my own psychology.

[Wayning_Star]

Auintus wrote...

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

Gee, it's like he doesn't have 50,000 years of downtime to ponder these things. "Hmmm, i have this lightbulb. I know it creates light, but I simple don't have the power to do so. Wait... I saw planes for a very large battery not too long ago. Huh... I wonder if I could connect the two!"

It's insanity to believe that an AI, that has no reason to not think of better ways to solve the problem (because it's his mandate, and he already tried Synthesis before) over these long periods of time it takes for organics to get going again.

it's stupidity piled unto illogic.

It's trying to find it's own solution. Why would it be concerned about a device it had believed to be eradicated cycles ago?

The catalyst just didn't know the crucible as a threat, it had been used before, but wasn't fully constructed and was crude. It apparently thought of it as a crude power supply, or no more functional than last time. But, we must consider, that the dialogue was AFTER the crucible was attatched, so it's probable that the idea of it's inoperablity was part of the interface. The catalyst was informed/programmed to understand that the crucible was only a power supply and harmless/impotent...

[Cyberfrog81]

Wayning_Star wrote...

actually destroy on seems renegade, it's actually a joiners response. The story inflicts it throughout, forcing Shep to take that tack..but in the end, the story come at Shep sidways. It's time to really go out on a limb. The destroy crowd becomes the status quo.

No. The status quo is "Reapers dominating the galaxy". Destroy is "no more Reapers".

[Auintus]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

Auintus wrote...
It's trying to find it's own solution. Why would it be concerned about a device it had believed to be eradicated cycles ago?

Because it would help it use the devices it has now perhaps? You know, the devices that bring about the "perfect solution" of Synthesis?

Too logical? Thought so.

Decyphering: "Would it help it to use the devices it has now, perhaps?"
No, dragon's teeth and the like are forced synthesis. The incomplete, invasive version.

What devices did it have besides the dragon's teeth? Because that certainly wasn't a perfect solution.

Modifié par Auintus, 30 janvier 2013 - 04:36 .

[Wayning_Star]

Auintus wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

It's just an observation, not an edict..lol Some I don't bother with myself, as it's futile, or more so, in effective, as they really don't care either way really. You could write your fingers to the bone and then get  a two word response for the effort.

Gotchicha. I don't really care much for the response. I just like having to think about it. Helps me understand my own decisions, my own psychology.

oh I like to respond sometimes, just to imagine them doing cartwheels,backflips and handstands whilst popping spit bubbles..

(lol, an old joke phrase one of my old farmer buddies liked to use..)

[Auintus]

Wayning_Star wrote...

Auintus wrote...

It's trying to find it's own solution. Why would it be concerned about a device it had believed to be eradicated cycles ago?

The catalyst just didn't know the crucible as a threat, it had been used before, but wasn't fully constructed and was crude. It apparently thought of it as a crude power supply, or no more functional than last time. But, we must consider, that the dialogue was AFTER the crucible was attatched, so it's probable that the idea of it's inoperablity was part of the interface. The catalyst was informed/programmed to understand that the crucible was only a power supply and harmless/impotent...

But nobody knew about the Catalyst. Why would anyone think to program the machine to misinform an AI on the Citadel? (if I understand you)

[Ticonderoga117]

Auintus wrote...
...That was an, apparently failed, attempt a humor.

Not quite the same thing. Understanding the logic behind emotions doesn't help you understand emotions. Having someone explain something to you doesn't mean you'll understand it. Synthesis is a little more than that. Bends the mind to make it capable of understanding.

Yet the entire race went to war with them, hellbent of destroying the lot of them. Clearly nobody to any great issues with it.

He gives you three choices that each accomplish your goal. Destroying them is surrender? Control is surrender? I...you don't...you can't...that's not...
Act like you have a brain? Throwing away your only chance at survival is definitely not an inteligent move.

Still holds true. We've met Thresher Maws before, and the entire premise is the Reapers. These still do not come close to the absurdity of changing the entire galaxy at the molecular level in 5 seconds. Wait, not even that. The human body in five seconds. It took TIM 2 years and billions of credits to put Shepard back together.

So how does an EM wave do that? A single pulse of radiation? 

Not only do you get to destroy the Reapers (our goal), but you get to kill the Geth, EDI, and all those relays that you rely on. If it was surrender, the Reapers would GO. Control, you can't send the Reapers away. Or tell them to shut down. Synthetics are not the problem, the REAPERS are. Oh wait, we can't kill them unless it we shoot ourselves in the foot and become complete dicks. Fan-tastic.

The Crucible is our only chance because everyone was too stupid to do anything else. Not MY fault they did that.

[Wayning_Star]

Cyberfrog81 wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

actually destroy on seems renegade, it's actually a joiners response. The story inflicts it throughout, forcing Shep to take that tack..but in the end, the story come at Shep sidways. It's time to really go out on a limb. The destroy crowd becomes the status quo.

No. The status quo is "Reapers dominating the galaxy". Destroy is "no more Reapers".

the Leviathan are organic reapers..they're the tech that built the problems. There is no escaping it unless you destroy ALL of it in one fell swoop.. Sorry, it's a downer I know, but that's the MEU, built on promises. (edit) you can barely keep.

Modifié par Wayning_Star, 30 janvier 2013 - 04:40 .

[Ticonderoga117]

Auintus wrote...

Decyphering: "Would it help it to use the devices it has now, perhaps?"
No, dragon's teeth and the like are forced synthesis. The incomplete, invasive version.

What devices did it have besides the dragon's teeth? Because that certainly wasn't a perfect solution.

Whatever that is inside the Citadel that allows green space magic to screw over the Galaxy. You know, since the Crucible is just a power source. Have you been paying attention to these "clarifications"? We didn't build a device to do Synthesis, we built a giant D battery.

[Wayning_Star]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

Auintus wrote...
...That was an, apparently failed, attempt a humor.

Not quite the same thing. Understanding the logic behind emotions doesn't help you understand emotions. Having someone explain something to you doesn't mean you'll understand it. Synthesis is a little more than that. Bends the mind to make it capable of understanding.

Yet the entire race went to war with them, hellbent of destroying the lot of them. Clearly nobody to any great issues with it.

He gives you three choices that each accomplish your goal. Destroying them is surrender? Control is surrender? I...you don't...you can't...that's not...
Act like you have a brain? Throwing away your only chance at survival is definitely not an inteligent move.

Still holds true. We've met Thresher Maws before, and the entire premise is the Reapers. These still do not come close to the absurdity of changing the entire galaxy at the molecular level in 5 seconds. Wait, not even that. The human body in five seconds. It took TIM 2 years and billions of credits to put Shepard back together.

So how does an EM wave do that? A single pulse of radiation? 

Not only do you get to destroy the Reapers (our goal), but you get to kill the Geth, EDI, and all those relays that you rely on. If it was surrender, the Reapers would GO. Control, you can't send the Reapers away. Or tell them to shut down. Synthetics are not the problem, the REAPERS are. Oh wait, we can't kill them unless it we shoot ourselves in the foot and become complete dicks. Fan-tastic.

The Crucible is our only chance because everyone was too stupid to do anything else. Not MY fault they did that.

the slides timelapse isn't in realtime. So they could of taken centuries, decades in the least.

[Wayning_Star]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

Auintus wrote...

Decyphering: "Would it help it to use the devices it has now, perhaps?"
No, dragon's teeth and the like are forced synthesis. The incomplete, invasive version.

What devices did it have besides the dragon's teeth? Because that certainly wasn't a perfect solution.

Whatever that is inside the Citadel that allows green space magic to screw over the Galaxy. You know, since the Crucible is just a power source. Have you been paying attention to these "clarifications"? We didn't build a device to do Synthesis, we built a giant D battery.

considering Hakett informs that it drained the resources of most of the MEU, that's one hell of a D cell... Hackett admitted that the rachni knew a LOT more about technology than ever imagined..kind of a hint that the crucible was more than just a power source.

[Ticonderoga117]

Wayning_Star wrote...
the slides timelapse isn't in realtime. So they could of taken centuries, decades in the least.

Ok, so completely changing Earth in a matter of seconds is believeable? How about the Normandy? The Citadel? The entire Sol system?

Some site says this on the number of cells in one body...
Some sources
told us that the average adult human body is made up of "50 million
million" (50 trillion) cells, while others put the figure closer to 10
trillion. Science NetLinks,
a resource for science teachers, stated that there are approximately
"ten to the 14th power" (that's 100 trillion) cells in the human body.

So, some green space radiation is able to make the lowest numbe of cells (50 trillion) change thier form and function in the blink of an eye? Seriously?

[Auintus]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

Still holds true. We've met Thresher Maws before, and the entire premise is the Reapers. These still do not come close to the absurdity of changing the entire galaxy at the molecular level in 5 seconds. Wait, not even that. The human body in five seconds. It took TIM 2 years and billions of credits to put Shepard back together.

So how does an EM wave do that? A single pulse of radiation? 

Not only do you get to destroy the Reapers (our goal), but you get to kill the Geth, EDI, and all those relays that you rely on. If it was surrender, the Reapers would GO. Control, you can't send the Reapers away. Or tell them to shut down. Synthetics are not the problem, the REAPERS are. Oh wait, we can't kill them unless it we shoot ourselves in the foot and become complete dicks. Fan-tastic.

The Crucible is our only chance because everyone was too stupid to do anything else. Not MY fault they did that.

*shrugs* Sufficiently advanced technology. Energy is perfectly capable of rearraging matter. If you had the right type at the right energy level...

Rewrite the circuits? I dunno. I'm no good with machines, let alone AIs.

The goal is to stop the harvest. Making peace is preferable to just killing things.
They can't just go. Their programming insists that they "save" organics from their own creations. They can't abandon it, and I don't see why they would.
Control: Why would they send the reapers away? It's like throwing away a hammer because you'd rather hammer the nail with your skull.
Synthetic-organic conflict is the problem, Reapers are the solution. A crude, impermanent solution, but a solution.

Perhaps not. But does that mean you should let everyone die and refuse to use your only chance at success? I can just imagine your Shepard pouting, "If they'd just listened to me the first time it would never have come to this. Those old bastards can all die. I won't save them."

[Ticonderoga117]

Wayning_Star wrote...
considering Hakett informs that it drained the resources of most of the MEU, that's one hell of a D cell... Hackett admitted that the rachni knew a LOT more about technology than ever imagined..kind of a hint that the crucible was more than just a power source.

That battery is large enough to eat a dreadnought or two no problem and have room for the Normandy for dessert. It generates power, we know this, it was told even in the original version that the Catalyst was the thing that modulates this power to be useful. That's why we needed it. If the Crucible could just generate the destroy wave right off the bat, then there would be no reason to assualt the Citadel like that. Just move it system to system, clearing out Reapers.

[Auintus]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

Auintus wrote...

Decyphering: "Would it help it to use the devices it has now, perhaps?"
No, dragon's teeth and the like are forced synthesis. The incomplete, invasive version.

What devices did it have besides the dragon's teeth? Because that certainly wasn't a perfect solution.

Whatever that is inside the Citadel that allows green space magic to screw over the Galaxy. You know, since the Crucible is just a power source. Have you been paying attention to these "clarifications"? We didn't build a device to do Synthesis, we built a giant D battery.

No. The wave was just energy, released from the Crucible. The Citadel only determined how it was released. It couldn't do it by itself.

[Wayning_Star]

Auintus wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

Auintus wrote...

It's trying to find it's own solution. Why would it be concerned about a device it had believed to be eradicated cycles ago?

The catalyst just didn't know the crucible as a threat, it had been used before, but wasn't fully constructed and was crude. It apparently thought of it as a crude power supply, or no more functional than last time. But, we must consider, that the dialogue was AFTER the crucible was attatched, so it's probable that the idea of it's inoperablity was part of the interface. The catalyst was informed/programmed to understand that the crucible was only a power supply and harmless/impotent...

But nobody knew about the Catalyst. Why would anyone think to program the machine to misinform an AI on the Citadel? (if I understand you)

some prothean Ai's knew of it and the cycle/pattern. Also, the Leviathan knew about it all. Maybe the rachni knew more than Hackett gave them credit for? The crucible was utilized in previous cycles apparently, getting upgrades between them. I doubt the cat would hook up such a device and use it, so it has to have some form of interfaces that links with the catalsyt and as to be causual. The reaperships tried to destroy it and the catalyst ran from it to earth to upend Sheps plans, exposed by TIM. Once it were connected, then the catalsyt began to utter a different opinion on it's experiment within the MEU.

[Auintus]

Wayning_Star wrote...

some prothean Ai's knew of it and the cycle/pattern. Also, the Leviathan knew about it all. Maybe the rachni knew more than Hackett gave them credit for? The crucible was utilized in previous cycles apparently, getting upgrades between them. I doubt the cat would hook up such a device and use it, so it has to have some form of interfaces that links with the catalsyt and as to be causual. The reaperships tried to destroy it and the catalyst ran from it to earth to upend Sheps plans, exposed by TIM. Once it were connected, then the catalsyt began to utter a different opinion on it's experiment within the MEU.

But even the Protheans believed it was the Citadel itself. Nobody indicated that their was an AI involved.

[Wayning_Star]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...
considering Hakett informs that it drained the resources of most of the MEU, that's one hell of a D cell... Hackett admitted that the rachni knew a LOT more about technology than ever imagined..kind of a hint that the crucible was more than just a power source.

That battery is large enough to eat a dreadnought or two no problem and have room for the Normandy for dessert. It generates power, we know this, it was told even in the original version that the Catalyst was the thing that modulates this power to be useful. That's why we needed it. If the Crucible could just generate the destroy wave right off the bat, then there would be no reason to assualt the Citadel like that. Just move it system to system, clearing out Reapers.

It were only hinted as to what the catalyst was in reference to the crucible. The alliance only knew it were powerful, they didn't know anything about the catalsyt and it's interplay with the cosmic D cell. We know after connection, it was more than a power supply, but even that wasn't fully explained. We take those from the Shep experienc post decision. Shep has to know that it's more than a power supply after making it up to the cat's lair, but even then, it's theoretical. Heck even the choices are theoretical. And, we have to trust that the cat is under some sort of control, we can pretty much depned, that as an absolute thinking manchine, that the organic trait/survival tactic of lying isn't in it's programming. It doesn't need to lie. It's the one who does everything already. But that in of it's self works FOR Shep, not against the MEU.

[Ticonderoga117]

Auintus wrote...
*shrugs* Sufficiently advanced technology. Energy is perfectly capable of rearraging matter. If you had the right type at the right energy level...

Rewrite the circuits? I dunno. I'm no good with machines, let alone AIs.

The goal is to stop the harvest. Making peace is preferable to just killing things.
They can't just go. Their programming insists that they "save" organics from their own creations. They can't abandon it, and I don't see why they would.
Control: Why would they send the reapers away? It's like throwing away a hammer because you'd rather hammer the nail with your skull.
Synthetic-organic conflict is the problem, Reapers are the solution. A crude, impermanent solution, but a solution.

Perhaps not. But does that mean you should let everyone die and refuse to use your only chance at success? I can just imagine your Shepard pouting, "If they'd just listened to me the first time it would never have come to this. Those old bastards can all die. I won't save them."

The Reapers aren't "sufficiently" advanced to even touch that scale. Molding the entire galaxy to one's will is a whole distant tier of power that does not fit.

"Rewrite the circuits"? Radiation, to the very best of my knowledge, can't even come close to doing that with the precision needed to make it to the form needed to "empathize" with organics... whatever that means on hardware level, which doesn't make sense. That's like saying "I'm going to direct gamma rays into your brain, rearranging things so that you can link to machines."

They can go if the Catalyst says I can control them.
Hammers don't indoctrinate the nails to think that being hit with a hammer is a great thing.
I didn't have any problems with the Geth or EDI. Hell, I got the Quarians to allow Geth into thier suits to help acclimate. Even before that there was no open conflict with the Geth... until Sovereign came along. Gee, this cycle seemed to be going pretty good until the Reapers came. The Reapers are the problem, not the Geth or any other AI's.

Considering that Hackett and Anderson tried thier best to kill Shepard on Earth, don't blame him.

"What do you mean I have to charge towards the walking skyscrapper WITHOUT a diversion? Or going around."