307 réponses à ce sujet

[CynicalShep]

Steelcan wrote...

CynicalShep wrote...
Ah, my bad. I thought you mentioned that in one of the previous threads. In that case I understand your decision. I don't necessarily agree with it but it makes sense.

Salarians are a bit of a wild card. They are prone to backstabbing and playing with fire more so than other species. Uplifting Yahg, for instance might very well mean galactic extinction if Shadow Broker's intelligence is something common among their species. They are over-confident to the point of arrogance and surprisingly inept for their supposed intelligence(Cerberus attack on STG base is just one example of that). Asari are skilled in nothing except politics and thus useless in a full-scale war that can't be won with negotiations. Turians don't bear much love for us but I was sure they will be the first to jump to our help before ME3 was released.

. I have two play throughs completed, one destroy, one control. I'm redoing my canon, destroy. But I wouldn't pass up Control if Shepard lived in body as well as mind. Not the point.

iwonder if the Yahg have a birth rate comparable to the Krogan?

Unlikely, since they haven't left their home world.
If Salarians give them the goodies I'm pretty sure they'll find ways to "repay" them, including an improved birthrate and anihilation. The only thin that matters is that they are at least as strong as Krogan, significantly more vicious and have the potential to be smarter than said Salarians. That alone should be a no-go.

And David7204, you either haven't read what I wrote or you're conveniently skewing it to help you defend your arguments. I said that going out of your way to help others (read: selflessness) should be rewarded. Making illogical decisions because they're in the upper right of the dialogue wheel shouldn't. And our understanding of what a "hero" is are not exactly similar, to put it mildly

[DeinonSlayer]

David7204 wrote...

No. You're still treating this like a simulation and not a story.

Back to the ME 3 Reaper example. As I said, you knew the Reapers were going to be defeated somehow. You expected it. Did you not?

And you knew that small decisions would not completely doom the game, did you not? For instance, decisions like bringing a certain squadmate on a mission. Or perhaps those arguments on the Citadel?

How about this. You bring Garrus on one of the smaller N7 missions, you die. Game over. None of your other decisions matter. Nothing you did up to the point matters. The cycle loses.

Is this good storytelling?

It's perfectly logical. In real life, I'm sure people live and die based on very minor decisions like that. In real life, people die in unexpected, anticlimatic ways all the time.

So what would be the problem?

This is the second time you've invoked this strawman. You've said everything should work out for the "ideal hero" because heroism. I've said taking the writer-designated "high-road" action, realistically, wouldn't always pay off - the player should have to think about their actions instead of comfortably assuming that doing the same thing every time will always result in a beneficial outcome. So now, you're comparing that to X happening for no reason whatsoever.

[David7204]

fiendishchicken wrote...

David7204 wrote...

Okay, first of all, enough of acting like the game is 'telling' you the Paragon actions are 'good.' That is just silly. Compassion, honor, friendship - these are themes associated with heroism across countless stories. Not just Mass Effect. I think most people would agree that an 'Ideal Hero' embodies those qualities.

If you don't like that, fine. Go find another story. This one isn't for you. Find a story where the supposed 'hero' is a complete ****** or loser, there's plenty out there. The movie Wanted comes to mind.

And of course, as everyone has come to expect from you, you're full of it.

There are more ways to define those words than are just made by your 'hero ideal'

That's not how the game is evoked. You're not more right than us. That's a fact. Your second paragraph is suggesting that being good is the only way to win. Especially in this game. It's not.

And who are you to tell a fan to become a fan of something else because you don't agree with their assertion.

I'm more convinced than ever that you're a troll. 

No, that's just basic logic.

If you're a radical conservative and you want to read a story where conversatives are awesome and liberals are stupid...you probably should go find a book written by conservatives.

If you think that compassion is for wussies and dorks and that the real winners punch people in the face, then you should probably go read a book by someone who agrees with you.

And if you think heroism is stupid and silly, fine. But you should probably avoid stories about heroes who save the galaxy.

[Bill Casey]

MegaSovereign wrote...

This may come off as superficial but I propose that Bioware randomizes the positions of the options on the dialogue wheel so that way you can keep the morality mechanic intact without reducing the motivation to read through dialogue options and role-play accordingly.

That would make it harder to find the option you want...
It would break up the flow of the narrative...

[Steelcan]

David7204 wrote...
No. You're still treating this like a simulation and not a story.

Back to the ME 3 Reaper example. As I said, you knew the Reapers were going to be defeated somehow. You expected it. Did you not?

And you knew that small decisions would not completely doom the game, did you not? For instance, decisions like bringing a certain squadmate on a mission. Or perhaps those arguments on the Citadel? You're 'safe' in the knowledge that those very minor decisions won't have drastic outcomes?

. How about big decisions?  Saving the CB vs Destroying it.  That is something that definitely should have been impactful, but it isn't.

I honestly expected certain choices would doom the galaxy, make too many and you lose.

[David7204]

No. Heroism should not work out for the better because of 'heroism.' That's stupid. It seems like you're the one using the straw argument.

Heroism should work out for the better because this is a story about heroism.

That makes all the difference in the world.

[DeinonSlayer]

Bill Casey wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

This may come off as superficial but I propose that Bioware randomizes the positions of the options on the dialogue wheel so that way you can keep the morality mechanic intact without reducing the motivation to read through dialogue options and role-play accordingly.

That would make it harder to find the option you want...
It would break up the flow of the narrative...

It would force the player to pay attention to what's happening, what's being said, and think before acting.

That's all I'm asking for.

[Steelcan]

David7204 wrote...

No. Heroism should not work out for the better because of 'heroism.' That's stupid. It seems like you're the one using the straw argument.

Heroism should work out for the better because this is a story about heroism.

That makes all the difference in the world.

. What about Shepards who aren't heroic?  Those who are Machiavellian to a fault.  There is nothing heroic in sacrificing the council or killing the Rachni queen.  Why should they get shafted, they are just as valid

[Bill Casey]

It would be annoying and distracting...
You know where the agree slot is, you know where the disagree slot is, you know where the charm slot is and you know where the intimidate slot it...

You essentially want to ruin the intuitivity of the system...

[David7204]

I know you're you asking for. What you want. But it isn't possible.

[DeinonSlayer]

David7204 wrote...

No. Heroism should not work out for the better because of 'heroism.' That's stupid. It seems like you're the one using the straw argument.

Heroism should work out for the better because this is a story about heroism.

That makes all the difference in the world.

I'm sorry. I've read this three times and I have no idea what you're trying to say.

What I'm saying is that the player shouldn't be comfortable in the knowledge that thoughtlessly pursuing a single course of action will always turn out for the better. They should be thinking about what they're saying, and whether they agree with it, not thinking about what it'll do to their morality score. That's why Paragon/Renegade needs to go away.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 30 janvier 2013 - 03:20 .

[Steelcan]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

David7204 wrote...

No. Heroism should not work out for the better because of 'heroism.' That's stupid. It seems like you're the one using the straw argument.

Heroism should work out for the better because this is a story about heroism.

That makes all the difference in the world.

I'm sorry. I've read this three times and I have no idea what you're trying to say.

What I'm saying is that the player shouldn't be comfortable in the knowledge that thoughtlessly pursuing a single course of action will always turn out for the better. That's why Paragon/Renegade needs to go away.

. Or make the options equal

[David7204]

Steelcan wrote...

David7204 wrote...

No. Heroism should not work out for the better because of 'heroism.' That's stupid. It seems like you're the one using the straw argument.

Heroism should work out for the better because this is a story about heroism.

That makes all the difference in the world.

. What about Shepards who aren't heroic?  Those who are Machiavellian to a fault.  There is nothing heroic in sacrificing the council or killing the Rachni queen.  Why should they get shafted, they are just as valid

They aren't just as valid. Being cruel and petty is not as valid as heroism.

[CynicalShep]

Bill Casey wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

This may come off as superficial but I propose that Bioware randomizes the positions of the options on the dialogue wheel so that way you can keep the morality mechanic intact without reducing the motivation to read through dialogue options and role-play accordingly.

That would make it harder to find the option you want...
It would break up the flow of the narrative...

Then how are we supposed to know if we're doing the right thing?

[Bill Casey]

Paragon/Renegade is the heart and soul of Mass Effect...
It's what drew me to Mass Effect in the first place...

[Steelcan]

David7204 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

David7204 wrote...

No. Heroism should not work out for the better because of 'heroism.' That's stupid. It seems like you're the one using the straw argument.

Heroism should work out for the better because this is a story about heroism.

That makes all the difference in the world.

. What about Shepards who aren't heroic?  Those who are Machiavellian to a fault.  There is nothing heroic in sacrificing the council or killing the Rachni queen.  Why should they get shafted, they are just as valid

They aren't just as valid. Being cruel and petty is not as valid as heroism.

. **** heroism.  In the end, ruthless pragmatism should come out on top of trusting everyone.

[David7204]

Things don't work out for a 'heroic' Shepard because the story is about him.

The story is about him because things work out for him.

Is Shepard the only hero in the galaxy? Of course not. Are there thousands or millions or billions of people in the galaxy who are heroes, but still die in vain? Absolutely. Are there people who are kind and selfless and heroic but still die horrible deaths? You bet. Are there people whose heroism counts for utterly nothing. Heck yes.

But the story is not about them. It's about Shepard. That's why the story is about Shepard. Out of the trillions of people in the galaxy, Shepard is the one who succeeds. The one. That's WHY the story is about him.

It's the same for all stories. Is James Bond the only secret agent on Earth? Of course not. Do other agents get shot by mooks, or fall off buildings, or die in a million other stupid ways? Sure. But the story isn't about them. The story is about James Bond BECAUSE he's the one that succeeds.

[EpicBoot2daFace]

I would like to see paragon/renegade removed in favor of a system that isn't so binary and doesn't penalize the player. The current system expects the player to choose one or the other, but it doesn't know how to deal with neutral players who use both.

[samgurl775]

I'm all for forgoing morality points. I hope ME4 has a coercion skill like DA:O.

[Bill Casey]

Steelcan wrote...

**** heroism.

I despise this sentiment...
Such a cynical worldview...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 30 janvier 2013 - 03:27 .

[David7204]

Steelcan wrote...

David7204 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

David7204 wrote...

No. Heroism should not work out for the better because of 'heroism.' That's stupid. It seems like you're the one using the straw argument.

Heroism should work out for the better because this is a story about heroism.

That makes all the difference in the world.

. What about Shepards who aren't heroic?  Those who are Machiavellian to a fault.  There is nothing heroic in sacrificing the council or killing the Rachni queen.  Why should they get shafted, they are just as valid

They aren't just as valid. Being cruel and petty is not as valid as heroism.

. **** heroism.  In the end, ruthless pragmatism should come out on top of trusting everyone.

See, I don't think you believe that at all. Are you a 'ruthless pragmatist' in real life?

[Steelcan]

David7204 wrote...
Things don't work out for a 'heroic' Shepard because the story is about him.

The story is about him because things work out for him.

Is Shepard the only hero in the galaxy? Of course not. Are there thousands or millions or billions of people in the galaxy who are heroes, but still die in vain? Absolutely. Are there people who are kind and selfless and heroic but still die horrible deaths? You bet. Are there people whose heroism counts for utterly nothing. Heck yes.

But the story is not about them. It's about Shepard. That's why the story is about Shepard. Out of the trillions of people in the galaxy, Shepard is the one who succeeds. The one. That's WHY the story is about him.

It's the same for all stories. Is James Bond the only secret agent on Earth? Of course not. Do other agents get shot by mooks, or fall off buildings, or die in a million other stupid ways? Sure. But the story isn't about them. The story is about James Bond BECAUSE he's the one that succeeds.

. No, they work out for James Bond because he's in a story.

[Steelcan]

David7204 wrote...

See, I don't think you believe that at all. Are you a 'ruthless pragmatist' in real life?

. I know that optimism and hope only gets you so far.  

[David7204]

No. That's a crippling misunderstanding of the most important connection between stories and reality.