307 réponses à ce sujet

[Steelcan]

Bill Casey wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

**** heroism.

I despise this sentiment...
Such a cynical worldview...

. I'm cynical

[David7204]

Steelcan wrote...

David7204 wrote...

See, I don't think you believe that at all. Are you a 'ruthless pragmatist' in real life?

. I know that optimism and hope only gets you so far.  

Except it isn't just optimism and hope. Many of charm options for a Paragon Shepard are absolutely brilliant. It's intelligence. It's perspective. It's friendship and loyalty.

How far do those things get you?

[Steelcan]

David7204 wrote...

No. That's a crippling misunderstanding of the most important connection between stories and reality.

.   Stories exist to entertain or teach a message.  I enjoy superhero movies because I know it's not real, things happen to Batman because a writer put it in there.

[Steelcan]

David7204 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

David7204 wrote...

See, I don't think you believe that at all. Are you a 'ruthless pragmatist' in real life?

. I know that optimism and hope only gets you so far.  

Except it isn't just optimism and hope. Many of charm options for a Paragon Shepard are absolutely brilliant. It's intelligence. It's perspective. It's friendship and loyalty.

How far do those things get you?

. Not as far as a 12 figure check or an army at my back

[CynicalShep]

David7204 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

David7204 wrote...

See, I don't think you believe that at all. Are you a 'ruthless pragmatist' in real life?

. I know that optimism and hope only gets you so far.  

Except it isn't just optimism and hope. Many of charm options for a Paragon Shepard are absolutely brilliant. It's intelligence. It's perspective. It's friendship and loyalty.

How far do those things get you?

It is intelligence in many cases, agreed. It's stupidity in others (Balak)

[David7204]

It's not stupidity. Balak is not a criminal mastermind. He's not a technical wizard. He's a thug that landed on the right asteroid at the right time and got lucky.

Saving the lives of the crew is more important.

[DeinonSlayer]

David7204 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

David7204 wrote...

No. Heroism should not work out for the better because of 'heroism.' That's stupid. It seems like you're the one using the straw argument.

Heroism should work out for the better because this is a story about heroism.

That makes all the difference in the world.

. What about Shepards who aren't heroic?  Those who are Machiavellian to a fault.  There is nothing heroic in sacrificing the council or killing the Rachni queen.  Why should they get shafted, they are just as valid

They aren't just as valid. Being cruel and petty is not as valid as heroism.

I'll reply to this quote with a quote:

fiendishchicken wrote...

There are more ways to define those words than are just made by your 'hero ideal'

That's not how the game is evoked. You're not more right than us. That's a fact. Your second paragraph is suggesting that being good is the only way to win. Especially in this game. It's not.

Think for a moment. If you let Balak go on X57, only to learn in ME2 that he killed an entire human colony a year into Shepard's death because he was released, how would you react to that? It's not something that couldn't have been forseen.

If Vido Santiago came back in ME3 and tried to kill Shepard in retaliation for an unsuccessful attempt on his life in ME2, or even succeeded with a character standing next to Shepard at the time, would that be unacceptable? In ME3, we go with the "exit pursued by a bear" routine - Vido is conveniently killed off-screen between ME2 and ME3.

I'm saying that this happens too often to be credible - the narrative twists itself into knots at times to shield the hero from any negative repercussions to their actions.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 30 janvier 2013 - 03:38 .

[David7204]

Steelcan wrote...

David7204 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

David7204 wrote...

See, I don't think you believe that at all. Are you a 'ruthless pragmatist' in real life?

. I know that optimism and hope only gets you so far.  

Except it isn't just optimism and hope. Many of charm options for a Paragon Shepard are absolutely brilliant. It's intelligence. It's perspective. It's friendship and loyalty.

How far do those things get you?

. Not as far as a 12 figure check or an army at my back

And do you think cruelty or pettiness will get you a 12-figure-check or an army at your back? 

[EpicBoot2daFace]

David7204 wrote...

It's not stupidity. Balak is not a criminal mastermind. He's not a technical wizard. He's a thug that landed on the right asteroid at the right time and got lucky.

Saving the lives of the crew is more important.

Opinions.

/end argument

[David7204]

No. You're still just not grasping the concept here. How would you feel if Shepard slipped in the shower, hit his head, and died?

That's a hell of a lot more likely than defeating the Reapers. Is the narrative 'twisting itself' because Shepard defeat the Reapers and doesn't die in the shower?

Is it likely that Shepard is a hero? Likely that he survived Akuze or Torfan or Elysium? Likely that he become a Spectre? No. Is the narrative 'twisting itself'? Absolutely not.

[StayFrosty05]

Steelcan wrote...

David7204 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

David7204 wrote...

No. Heroism should not work out for the better because of 'heroism.' That's stupid. It seems like you're the one using the straw argument.

Heroism should work out for the better because this is a story about heroism.

That makes all the difference in the world.

. What about Shepards who aren't heroic?  Those who are Machiavellian to a fault.  There is nothing heroic in sacrificing the council or killing the Rachni queen.  Why should they get shafted, they are just as valid

They aren't just as valid. Being cruel and petty is not as valid as heroism.

. **** heroism.  In the end, ruthless pragmatism should come out on top of trusting everyone.

I disagree....Ruthless looses you a lot of trust and Allies, which you need in War....Too much Naivity (Paragon) also has it's own nasty side effects....your nothing more than a paper Tiger whom nobody takes that seriously.....Both Renegade and Paragon in both game and RL have their fair share of positive and negative influences and far reacing consequences....An ability to think it through and balance what needs to be done for the greater good for both the now and the future with the impact it has on those involved are what garner the most support and leads to the best chances of success.

[Belisarius25]

I don't know if it's as black and white as this discussion is making it out to be. I do tend to agree with David that Shepards who go around stabbing everyone in the back and killing people, etc. shouldn't really be as successful within the narrative framework of the Mass Effect universe. Yes, it's possible to be successful while doing so, but I don't think it's intended and it's not very logical (why would people continue to trust/work with you if you've demonstrated that you're too ruthless/willing to be underhanded?).

That being said, I do think some freedom is necessary. My main Shepard is pretty paragon (pretty harsh/sarcastic towards some people but generally looks to work with the other races/groups/people in a constructive manner). And I think that's valid. I also think it's valid that a 'hero' Shepard might do things like turn Tali's father in (many renegade points) or kill the geth heretics instead of rewriting them (renegade points), or occasionally losing your temper (like mine does with Legion in ME3 after being lied to repeatedly)  or not save the Rachni queen in ME1, etc.

There's a pretty big space between "perfect hero" and "sociopath/someone people wouldn't follow" for people to play around with, though I do agree with the general premise that there's a limit to how 'grimdark' Shepard should be able to be, at which point people start calling them on it or stop working with them.

Just my two cents.

Modifié par Belisarius25, 30 janvier 2013 - 03:46 .

[Steelcan]

David7204 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

David7204 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

David7204 wrote...
See, I don't think you believe that at all. Are you a 'ruthless pragmatist' in real life?

. I know that optimism and hope only gets you so far.  

Except it isn't just optimism and hope. Many of charm options for a Paragon Shepard are absolutely brilliant. It's intelligence. It's perspective. It's friendship and loyalty.

How far do those things get you?

. Not as far as a 12 figure check or an army at my back

And do you think cruelty or pettiness will get you a 12-figure-check or an army at your back? 

. Well not to be offensive, but it worked for Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Caesar, Genghis Kahn, and numerous other rulers.  

[David7204]

By the way, that has utterly and completely nothing to do with the 'exit pursued by a bear' trope.

[samgurl775]

David7204 wrote...

It's not stupidity. Balak is not a criminal mastermind. He's not a technical wizard. He's a thug that landed on the right asteroid at the right time and got lucky.

Saving the lives of the crew is more important.

Wut. He wasn't just some random thug - he was the leader of a group of terrorists. If three people have to die to make sure Balak never does another slave raid or try to kill another colony then so be it. 

[Steelcan]

David7204 wrote...

No. You're still just not grasping the concept here. How would you feel if Shepard slipped in the shower, hit his head, and died?

That's a hell of a lot more likely than defeating the Reapers. Is the narrative 'twisting itself' because Shepard defeat the Reapers and doesn't die in the shower?

Is it likely that Shepard is a hero? Likely that he survived Akuze or Torfan or Elysium? Likely that he become a Spectre? No. Is the narrative 'twisting itself'? Absolutely not.

. Because a writer made it that way.

[EpicBoot2daFace]

David7204 wrote...

No. You're still just not grasping the concept here. How would you feel if Shepard slipped in the shower, hit his head, and died?

I would probably burst out laughing.

[Steelcan]

StayFrosty05 wrote...
I disagree....Ruthless looses you a lot of trust and Allies, which you need in War....Too much Naivity (Paragon) also has it's own nasty side effects....your nothing more than a paper Tiger whom nobody takes that seriously.....Both Renegade and Paragon in both game and RL have their fair share of positive and negative influences and far reacing consequences....An ability to think it through and balance what needs to be done for the greater good for both the now and the future with the impact it has on those involved are what garner the most support and leads to the best chances of success.

. Picture this.  

Mongol horde is on the march, I am the ruler of a small kingdom.  I've spent the past years building trade alliances and treaties and military agreements,  Mongols show up, I'm left to rot by my "allies". Mongols burn down my kingdom.

Instead of playing nice I build up my army, make myself powerful, Mongols aren't so keen on attacking anymore.

[David7204]

samgurl775 wrote...

David7204 wrote...

It's not stupidity. Balak is not a criminal mastermind. He's not a technical wizard. He's a thug that landed on the right asteroid at the right time and got lucky.

Saving the lives of the crew is more important.

Wut. He wasn't just some random thug - he was the leader of a group of terrorists. If three people have to die to make sure Balak never does another slave raid or try to kill another colony then so be it. 

Balak didn't plan to bomb Terra Nova. He simply happened to land on the asteriod already rigged with the equipment to do it. How likely is it that he would get an opportunity like that again? 

[Steelcan]

David7204 wrote...

samgurl775 wrote...

David7204 wrote...

It's not stupidity. Balak is not a criminal mastermind. He's not a technical wizard. He's a thug that landed on the right asteroid at the right time and got lucky.

Saving the lives of the crew is more important.

Wut. He wasn't just some random thug - he was the leader of a group of terrorists. If three people have to die to make sure Balak never does another slave raid or try to kill another colony then so be it. 

Balak didn't plan to bomb Terra Nova. He simply happened to land on the asteriod already rigged with the equipment to do it. How likely is it that he would get an opportunity like that again? 

.  I'm sorry, I must have read that wrong.  Balak didnt mean to bomb Terra Nova?

[StayFrosty05]

Steelcan wrote...

StayFrosty05 wrote...
I disagree....Ruthless looses you a lot of trust and Allies, which you need in War....Too much Naivity (Paragon) also has it's own nasty side effects....your nothing more than a paper Tiger whom nobody takes that seriously.....Both Renegade and Paragon in both game and RL have their fair share of positive and negative influences and far reacing consequences....An ability to think it through and balance what needs to be done for the greater good for both the now and the future with the impact it has on those involved are what garner the most support and leads to the best chances of success.

. Picture this.  

Mongol horde is on the march, I am the ruler of a small kingdom.  I've spent the past years building trade alliances and treaties and military agreements,  Mongols show up, I'm left to rot by my "allies". Mongols burn down my kingdom.

Instead of playing nice I build up my army, make myself powerful, Mongols aren't so keen on attacking anymore.

....And if you have been an *ss to all your neighbours, watch your back because you have no Allies to contend with...while your dealing with scaring off the horde knocking at your front door, your too distracted to notice the neighbours creeping through your back door to plant that dagger in your back while your busy or momentarily down....perfect time to get rid of the *sshole next door....

[Steelcan]

StayFrosty05 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...
 Picture this.  

Mongol horde is on the march, I am the ruler of a small kingdom.  I've spent the past years building trade alliances and treaties and military agreements,  Mongols show up, I'm left to rot by my "allies". Mongols burn down my kingdom.

Instead of playing nice I build up my army, make myself powerful, Mongols aren't so keen on attacking anymore.

....And if you have been an *ss to all your neighbours, watch your back because you have no Allies to contend with...while your dealing with scaring off the horde knocking at your front door, your too distracted to notice the neighbours creeping through your back door to plant that dagger in your back while your busy or momentarily down....perfect time to get rid of the *sshole next door....

. Or if you're really ruthless, you strike a deal with them:devil:

[David7204]

No, he didn't. That's how he got so close to getting away with it in the first place. He was just making a grab for some easy slaves, but decided to bomb Terra Nova once he discovered the engines were already in place.

[Steelcan]

David7204 wrote...

No, he didn't. That's how he got so close to getting away with it in the first place. He was just making a grab for some easy slaves, but decided to bomb Terra Nova once he discovered the engines were already in place.

. I don't think a Batarian Hegemony Captain is interested in a slave grab.  And if you interrogate him, he blows that idea to hell.  He's the first wave in a coming batarian invasion.

[spirosz]

^That is what I believe. I still got respect for Batarians though, misrepresented because of few, in my opinion.