177 réponses à ce sujet

[BridgeBurner]

Dunvi wrote...

I can try. That's another one on my list, hasn't happened yet because I can only find the problem and am having trouble concluding a solution...

Patch out the stupid -25% penalty krogan suffer when attacking armour. Impossible with balance change server pushes.

Patch in AoE damage: a ridiculous number of classes (demolisher, armiger turians, destroyer, asari... etc) have AoE heavy melee attacks, yet the krogan don't. Impossible to do with balance change server pushes.

Make krogan base melee damage more impressive (1000 base would be nice). Why does a batarian punch hit harder than a charging krogan? Again, base stats I don't think can be modified by server pushes, so this is a patchable solution.

Patch out the immunity bubble BS: phantom bubbles, banshee hand of denial, praetorian bubble all (for some reason, Wrex only knows) absorb MELEE damage as well as power damage.... but not weapon damage. Great game design there...



My hot fix? Double the current melee damage bonus of rage (+560 damage or +420 damage versus armour) for the shaman, soldier and sentinel (vanguard only gets a melee buff if he gets a biotic charge nerf!) and increase the rank 5 martial artist bonus to 100%.

Not sure if its possible without patching, but extending the duration of rage by 15/30 seconds for Melee evos 4a+6a in the rage tree taken. On later waves of gold, there just aren't enough enemies which can be OHK'd (the strength of a melee build is in its ability to OHK) so extending the duration of rage would mean the bonuses don't drop off too quickly, leaving you with your panties round your ankles when the wave 10 phantom gang-bang squad turns up; or when the pyros / bombers come.. or the dragoons, or the possessed troopers, or the.... etc.

As they have no AoE component on their HM, they are desperately outmatched by huntress w/ cyclonic IV; who can take down enemies much faster, and doesn't need to risk sync kill range, has greater mobility... has ridiculous power damage to boot... also doesn't need to kill 2 enemies to reach her maximum damage, she requires only one kill... then of course there is the GI melee build which just puts krogan to shame...

The game has a "50 Melee Kills Medal" for a reason... Krogan could be so much better; and perhaps not everyone can manage to get a 50 melee kills medal on colectors platinum by wave 6 like I can; but that's no excuse for not buffing the non-kroguard krogan who are desperately in need of some love.

Modifié par Annomander, 29 janvier 2013 - 10:31 .

[N7-RedFox]

IllusiveManJr wrote...

 I know some people don't use the Havoc much, myself included. But with the Havoc Strike buff I most definitely will be giving him more play time. Anyone else going to? 

Hmm i dunno if i will use him or not. The buffs were nice and all but i hate being sync killed straight after i havoc strike a phantom

[Thrasher91604]

Well hopefully you can stun them now. We will see if that really happens on gold... Still not much of a buff, compared to the other problems with this character.

[xija]

interesting! I was already planning on trying out some Havoc builds once I get more respec cards... this is probably not enough to make me try out a melee build though, especially since there are plenty of other great choices if I want to go full blown melee.

[Dunvi]

Annomander wrote...

Dunvi wrote...

I can try. That's another one on my list, hasn't happened yet because I can only find the problem and am having trouble concluding a solution...

Patch out the stupid -25% penalty krogan suffer when attacking armour. Impossible with balance change server pushes.

Patch in AoE damage: a ridiculous number of classes (demolisher, armiger turians, destroyer, asari... etc) have AoE heavy melee attacks, yet the krogan don't. Impossible to do with balance change server pushes.

Make krogan base melee damage more impressive (1000 base would be nice). Why does a batarian punch hit harder than a charging krogan? Again, base stats I don't think can be modified by server pushes, so this is a patchable solution.

Patch out the immunity bubble BS: phantom bubbles, banshee hand of denial, praetorian bubble all (for some reason, Wrex only knows) absorb MELEE damage as well as power damage.... but not weapon damage. Great game design there...



My hot fix? Double the current melee damage bonus of rage (+560 damage or +420 damage versus armour) for the shaman, soldier and sentinel (vanguard only gets a melee buff if he gets a biotic charge nerf!) and increase the rank 5 martial artist bonus to 100%.

Not sure if its possible without patching, but extending the duration of rage by 15/30 seconds for Melee evos 4a+6a in the rage tree taken. On later waves of gold, there just aren't enough enemies which can be OHK'd (the strength of a melee build is in its ability to OHK) so extending the duration of rage would mean the bonuses don't drop off too quickly, leaving you with your panties round your ankles when the wave 10 phantom gang-bang squad turns up; or when the pyros / bombers come.. or the dragoons, or the

As they have no AoE component on their HM, they are desperately outmatched by huntress w/ cyclonic IV; who can take down enemies much faster, and doesn't need to risk sync kill range, has greater mobility... has ridiculous power damage to boot... also doesn't need to kill 2 enemies to reach her maximum damage, she requires only one kill... then of course there is the GI melee build which just puts krogan to shame...

The game has a "50 Melee Kills Medal" for a reason... Krogan could be so much better; and perhaps not everyone can manage to get a 50 melee kills medal on colectors platinum by wave 6 like I can; but that's no excuse for not buffing the non-kroguard krogan who are desperately in need of some love.

You have hit upon exactly the wall I have hit - everything requires a patch. I do think the duration of rage can be extended with balance changes, and that's one I strongly agree with (I've been doing melee krogan in the past few days), but I don't think it's enough to make up for it, and I'm not sure that just raising base damage will fix everything (you can already one hit all the mooks on gold, it's a dps issue, not a burst damage issue).

[Original Twigman]

Thrasher91604 wrote...

Dunvi wrote...

Thrasher91604 wrote...

Dunvi wrote...

Thrasher91604 wrote...

You must not have much experience playing this build then on PC, nor reading these forums....

Stim packs don't take sometimes. In a clutch situation they must be reliable, but they are not. Similar for double strike, the second melee doesn't happen frequently.

Same response I give for shield boost and ops packs. Use them preemptively, not as a response. These powers all give a momentary invulnerability period, which is far more valuable/significant than the shield restore.

And I flat out admitted I don't play Turian Havoc, and I don't really like the TGI much either. Doesn't mean I don't know how to use the powers.

Well that explains it. A preemptive stim pack that fails can be just as bad as an emergency stim pack that fails. Buggy powers and moves are buggy, and should be fixed.

... that doesn't explain anything. There's nothing buggy about stimpacks, just the netcode in general and there's not much they can do about that.

Wrong. Most other powers are much more reliable. Stim packs about the worst. Armwaving excuses about the netcode beeing bad in general shows you really haven't the experience to talk about this.

No one has experience like you. You have spent 300 hours of gametime on something you seem to adamantly complain about.

Congrats

[CmnDwnWrkn]

Shampoohorn wrote...

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

Significant buff?  The power doesn't even work.  It misses half the time.  You can't rely on it at all.  It's garbage. 

Works fine for me.:innocent:

I find this hard to believe. 

[Shampoohorn]

@Annomander: Did you ever get the Havoc's dual strike to work?

[Dunvi]

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

Significant buff?  The power doesn't even work.  It misses half the time.  You can't rely on it at all.  It's garbage. 

.458 wrote...

Thrasher91604 wrote...

Dunvi wrote...

Thrasher91604 wrote...

You must not have much experience playing this build then on PC, nor reading these forums....

Stim
packs don't take sometimes. In a clutch situation they must be
reliable, but they are not. Similar for double strike, the second melee
doesn't happen frequently.

Same response I give for
shield boost and ops packs. Use them preemptively, not as a response.
These powers all give a momentary invulnerability period, which is far
more valuable/significant than the shield restore.

And I flat out
admitted I don't play Turian Havoc, and I don't really like
the TGI much either. Doesn't mean I don't know how to use the powers.

Well
that explains it. A preemptive stim pack that fails can be just as bad
as an emergency stim pack that fails. Buggy powers and moves are buggy,
and should be fixed.

The bugs are mainly network
issues. People see what fails and often don't realize these are only the
signs and symptoms. In terms of networking, the structure of data and
amount of data has a big impact on what you see fail. Particular maps
and particular powers may look buggier than they are because of how they
go across the network. I wouldn't blame the powers for being buggy in
this case, blame networking. Rearranging data could vastly improve it.

I'm really getting tired of people blaming this game's broken **** on lag.  If the network makes the power fail completely a high percentage of the time, even when you're Host,  that power doesn't belong in the game, period.

BTW, who the hell is Dunvi, and why is Fagnan personally responding to his ideas?

You know, some people respond positively to well thought out and reasoned suggestions formulated with logic and supported by numbers. Also, Fagnan didn't respond to his ideas...

Also, we're not actually blaming the problems on lag, we're blaming the problems on the game's handling of latency. Yes, it's the game's fault, but it's not solvable at this late point in the game's lifespan to any reasonable degree (in fact, it would have been nearly unsolvable even before release. Damn architectural issues...), and chances are I know more about that than you do...

Modifié par Dunvi, 29 janvier 2013 - 10:37 .

[BridgeBurner]

Dunvi wrote...

You have hit upon exactly the wall I have hit - everything requires a patch. I do think the duration of rage can be extended with balance changes, and that's one I strongly agree with (I've been doing melee krogan in the past few days), but I don't think it's enough to make up for it, and I'm not sure that just raising base damage will fix everything (you can already one hit all the mooks on gold, it's a dps issue, not a burst damage issue).

It's to do with armour damage, krogan hitting armour don't deal enough damage. And biower love making "mooks" with armour, thus systematically f*cking any melee build that doesn't have the +50% modifier versus armour that the asari and geth (and even the destroyer, lolWTF?) have.

A prime example of just idiotic game design: Destroyer heavy melee: hits up to 3 targets, has a 50% multiplicative modifier versus ALL defences. Approximately same wind up time as krogan, does not track and has a radius of effect, meaning it can be used to greater effect without risking sync kills.

Charging krogan weighing 1000kg = -25% damage penalty for attacking armour (lolWTF?). Human in fancy suit stamping his boot on the ground = +50% bonus versus armour. #biowerlogic #biowerbalance

Modifié par Annomander, 29 janvier 2013 - 10:39 .

[Thrasher91604]

Original Stikman
No one is a fanboi like you. Let's all wave our arms and kiss Bioware's ass.

Modifié par Thrasher91604, 29 janvier 2013 - 10:36 .

[Zjarcal]

Lol, don't waste time with the trash...

On topic, it's a nice enough buff indeed, it doesn't turn the kit into an amazing one, but being able to stagger phantoms reliably without sacrificing radius or weapon passives is a significant and good buff.

[Original Twigman]

Thrasher91604 wrote...

Original Stikman
No one is a fanboi like you. Let's all wave our arms and kiss Bioware's ass.

Rather yours

[Shampoohorn]

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

Shampoohorn wrote...

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...
Significant buff?  The power doesn't even work.  It misses half the time.  You can't rely on it at all.  It's garbage. 

Works fine for me.:innocent:

I find this hard to believe. 

That's your provocative, but other than on Rio my issues with the Havoc's Strike are minimal.

Modifié par Shampoohorn, 29 janvier 2013 - 10:44 .

[CmnDwnWrkn]

Dunvi wrote...

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

Significant buff?  The power doesn't even work.  It misses half the time.  You can't rely on it at all.  It's garbage. 

.458 wrote...

Thrasher91604 wrote...

Dunvi wrote...

Thrasher91604 wrote...

You must not have much experience playing this build then on PC, nor reading these forums....

Stim
packs don't take sometimes. In a clutch situation they must be
reliable, but they are not. Similar for double strike, the second melee
doesn't happen frequently.

Same response I give for
shield boost and ops packs. Use them preemptively, not as a response.
These powers all give a momentary invulnerability period, which is far
more valuable/significant than the shield restore.

And I flat out
admitted I don't play Turian Havoc, and I don't really like
the TGI much either. Doesn't mean I don't know how to use the powers.

Well
that explains it. A preemptive stim pack that fails can be just as bad
as an emergency stim pack that fails. Buggy powers and moves are buggy,
and should be fixed.

The bugs are mainly network
issues. People see what fails and often don't realize these are only the
signs and symptoms. In terms of networking, the structure of data and
amount of data has a big impact on what you see fail. Particular maps
and particular powers may look buggier than they are because of how they
go across the network. I wouldn't blame the powers for being buggy in
this case, blame networking. Rearranging data could vastly improve it.

I'm really getting tired of people blaming this game's broken **** on lag.  If the network makes the power fail completely a high percentage of the time, even when you're Host,  that power doesn't belong in the game, period.

BTW, who the hell is Dunvi, and why is Fagnan personally responding to his ideas?

You know, some people respond positively to well thought out and reasoned suggestions formulated with logic and supported by numbers. Also, Fagnan didn't respond to his ideas...

Also, we're not actually blaming the problems on lag, we're blaming the problems on the game's handling of latency. Yes, it's the game's fault, but it's not solvable at this late point in the game's lifespan to any reasonable degree (in fact, it would have been nearly unsolvable even before release. Damn architectural issues...), and chances are I know more about that than you do...

Chances are you know more about that than Bioware does too.

Shampoohorn wrote...

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

Shampoohorn wrote...

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...
Significant buff?  The power doesn't even work.  It misses half the time.  You can't rely on it at all.  It's garbage. 

Works fine for me.[smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/angel.png[/smilie]

I find this hard to believe. 

That's your provocative, but other than on Rio my issues with the Havoc's Strike are minimal.

Is it possible that the behavior varies by platform? In the game that I play, Havoc Strike misses about as much as it hits.  Meaning you see the full animation, and you're placed right in front of the enemy, but the enemy doesn't take any damage and isn't staggered.

Modifié par CmnDwnWrkn, 29 janvier 2013 - 10:57 .

[elendil667]

I used him before! (I think) he was my first 200 waves challenge completed (and almost all were on Gold).

The buff is greatly appreciated, though. Coming up just short of the 1000N threshold with the weapon spec was maddening.

[lightswitch]

Well, I doubt you guys are still talking about the OP. But I already used the Havoc almost every day, so I guess this buff will increase my enjoyment even more. Pretty underrated kit IMO.

[Dunvi]

lightswitch wrote...

Well, I doubt you guys are still talking about the OP. But I already used the Havoc almost every day, so I guess this buff will increase my enjoyment even more. Pretty underrated kit IMO.

He wasn't as terrible as people claimed. He mostly just suffers from "someone else does it better" syndrome, which I hope this buff helps offset a little. As I said elsewhere in the thread, he actually has a niche now - he is the best vanguard weapons-wise now, especially since you can take all weapon passives while Drell and Batarians (next best weapons passives, I think, though I would have to double check) still need to take one or both of the power evolutions to stagger phantoms. In exchange, he has a crappy, but still utilitarian, charge.

[Titus Thongger]

I used the double strike turian havoc before it was cool

[Original Twigman]

Dunvi wrote...

lightswitch wrote...

Well, I doubt you guys are still talking about the OP. But I already used the Havoc almost every day, so I guess this buff will increase my enjoyment even more. Pretty underrated kit IMO.

He wasn't as terrible as people claimed. He mostly just suffers from "someone else does it better" syndrome, which I hope this buff helps offset a little. As I said elsewhere in the thread, he actually has a niche now - he is the best vanguard weapons-wise now, especially since you can take all weapon passives while Drell and Batarians (next best weapons passives, I think, though I would have to double check) still need to take one or both of the power evolutions to stagger phantoms. In exchange, he has a crappy, but still utilitarian, charge.

I'll try him out. Pretty much you are able to charge in with a heavy weapon and start Merk-ing things.

I'll use a phalanx

[Shampoohorn]

Dunvi wrote...

lightswitch wrote...

Well, I doubt you guys are still talking about the OP. But I already used the Havoc almost every day, so I guess this buff will increase my enjoyment even more. Pretty underrated kit IMO.

He wasn't as terrible as people claimed. He mostly just suffers from "someone else does it better" syndrome, which I hope this buff helps offset a little. As I said elsewhere in the thread, he actually has a niche now - he is the best vanguard weapons-wise now, especially since you can take all weapon passives while Drell and Batarians (next best weapons passives, I think, though I would have to double check) still need to take one or both of the power evolutions to stagger phantoms. In exchange, he has a crappy, but still utilitarian, charge.

I'd agree.  He can now compete with the Kroguard in terms of power damage (but with faster cooldown), OR be a solid weapon platform with turian perks and invulnerability frames.  He's still in the Ghost's shadow, but there's really not much you can do about that.

[hawgwild5757]

Yes, I'll play him again. He's one of the few kits I like the Revenant on. It's inaccurate, wide spray, large clip and high ROF make it an excellent mop up gun when you're still slightly disoriented from HS and can't tell what's still living. HS, then spray around liberally with the Revenant. After that you can melee or HS again if anything is still left alive.

[X-Frame]

Annomander wrote...

Dunvi wrote...

You have hit upon exactly the wall I have hit - everything requires a patch. I do think the duration of rage can be extended with balance changes, and that's one I strongly agree with (I've been doing melee krogan in the past few days), but I don't think it's enough to make up for it, and I'm not sure that just raising base damage will fix everything (you can already one hit all the mooks on gold, it's a dps issue, not a burst damage issue).

It's to do with armour damage, krogan hitting armour don't deal enough damage. And biower love making "mooks" with armour, thus systematically f*cking any melee build that doesn't have the +50% modifier versus armour that the asari and geth (and even the destroyer, lolWTF?) have.

A prime example of just idiotic game design: Destroyer heavy melee: hits up to 3 targets, has a 50% multiplicative modifier versus ALL defences. Approximately same wind up time as krogan, does not track and has a radius of effect, meaning it can be used to greater effect without risking sync kills.

Charging krogan weighing 1000kg = -25% damage penalty for attacking armour (lolWTF?). Human in fancy suit stamping his boot on the ground = +50% bonus versus armour. #biowerlogic #biowerbalance

I agree with you very much. Even though the Krogan have lots of health and shields and get DR from Rage and the heavy melee animation, it still isn't enough when other classes can out-damage enemies than a huge raging charging Krogan.

I definitely don't understand the melee damage multipliers or penalties. They don't make any sense to me. The classes that should be the kinds of melee are penalized whereas ones that shouldn't have multipliers? I don't get it.

[d4eaming]

I've already been using him (not necessarily very well, mind), but it's still exciting to see him able to compete more.

[P51Mus7ang]

Haven`t read all the replies....I have little experience with this kit but decided to take him on a gold run, Hurricane X with Cyro IV, we received Collectors on Giant, a map I love....it was the hardest game I have played with any kit. Cyro against Collectors just doesn`t seem to do the trick for me and Havoc strike turned out to be a death, sentance......Just not a kit for me I guess.