75 réponses à ce sujet

[ufc345]

Sith Reaper wrote...

AlexMBrennan wrote...

why do I care if an entertainment company doesn't do 'exactly' as I see fit?

Because customers are legally entitled to a product that matches the description and is fit for purpose.
The fact that there are bigger problems out there doesn't change the law (Sale Of Goods Act), and Bioware getting away on a technically (developer interviews not constituting a legally binding product description) doesn't make me feel better about being tricked into a purchase I would not otherwise have made.

just a bunch of guys and gals trying to entertain me

By and large, sure. But how exactly was Mac Walters trying to entertain you by lying about the impact of the Rachni on the story one week prior to the release of the game?

How is Bioware entertaining us by keeping the random MP unlock system rather than allowing us to pick weapons to unlock (one of the most requested things in the demo iirc)? Could that be because random rewards work much better in operant conditioning and they are really just trying to squeeze as much money out of you as they can? Of corse they are - it's what businesses do.

ad-hominem

Asking for the resignation of the people in charge is not an ad-hominem but a unfortunately necessary deterrent: If we send the industry the message that we are fine with being lied to then we will never see another honest demo, interview or trailer again, which would do much more harm in the long run than the loss of talented people today.

Please let it go. You know just as well as I do that to fulfill a game that depicts every choice across three games in a major branching path would take many more years to develop than what they had been allotted for. I am sure you of all people don't think EA would've allowed that to happen, right? I mean, judging from Twitter feeds alone, much of the Mass Effect team worked overtime in the many months leading up into release. There is literally no way BioWare could've fulfilled every choice to be realized in a way that could have had as far ranging consequences as you expect of them. It's simply unfeasible. 

Look, I hate corporate tyranny as much as the next guy. I really do. But berating BioWare's employees, the guys who work overnight at the office to push out a game, is not the way to go. You honestly think antagonizing BioWare's workers is going to change the corporate system? Because disagreeing with this post apologizing to BioWare for personal attacks made against them makes me think that you believe you are justified to treat the people working at BioWare this way. I have trouble understanding how these guys put up with it--imagine putting in years of work to see your own fans insult you and treat you in such a manner.

Grow up. There are other ways to continue your crusade--insulting the employees who often are working with time constraints and requests from the publisher is not the way to go. There are bigger fish to fry.

Heck they are even working Overtime to make this last DLC the best they can. So for crying out loud lets drop the hate of whatever it is people think Bioware wronged them in.

[Brass_Buckles]

I'm glad that you feel the need to apologize for brash comments and behavior. That's very mature of you.

That said, a lot of people, including me, genuinely were angry and upset about the ending; we found it unsatisfying, and so we went to the one place we knew we could find other fans, maybe even fans as upset about it as we were: BSN. I know I didn't get egged on worse by other people. I was already spitting mad. I don't believe I said anything horrible about the devs, but if I did, I'll toss my apology here too.

I don't hate the devs for putting out a crappy ending--and my experience with other players tells me that the unhappiness wasn't just a "vocal minority;" yes, the ending was bad. It happens. There's a sort of backhanded compliment involved, if you think about it--people were that worked up because the other two games, and even ME3, up until the ending, were widely considered great games.

Maybe it wasn't even possible for the endings to live up to all of the expectations--I personally think they could have been done better, but that's my personal opinion.

I don't like, or have to like, the ending, even with the extended cut. I appreciated their efforts to make it less horrible and less depressing with the extended cut, but the ending is still only "tolerable" to me. I'm not going to apologize for feeling that way, but I've spoken with people who were satisfied or even happy with the endings. I'm happy for them, and I wish I could feel the same.

I think most of us who are/were unhappy with the endings are long past the point of raging over it. I'll still discuss it, off-forum, from time to time, but what's done is done and the devs are not going to magically come up with millions of dollars and the spare time to suddenly fix everything the angry fans thought was wrong. Unless there's a remake of the entire series ten or twenty years from now, the ending is just going to be as it is. There's no sense demanding change or raging over it. Instead, I'm just hoping that ME4 is A) a sequel, and offers a more satisfying ending than ME3. Not to mention that I also hope that there's a bit more open dialogue between the devs and the fans from now on and less hostility, because developers and fans should definitely not be hostile to one another. They should be on the same side.

[harliquin89]

Brass_Buckles wrote...

I'm glad that you feel the need to apologize for brash comments and behavior. That's very mature of you.

That said, a lot of people, including me, genuinely were angry and upset about the ending; we found it unsatisfying, and so we went to the one place we knew we could find other fans, maybe even fans as upset about it as we were: BSN. I know I didn't get egged on worse by other people. I was already spitting mad. I don't believe I said anything horrible about the devs, but if I did, I'll toss my apology here too.

I don't hate the devs for putting out a crappy ending--and my experience with other players tells me that the unhappiness wasn't just a "vocal minority;" yes, the ending was bad. It happens. There's a sort of backhanded compliment involved, if you think about it--people were that worked up because the other two games, and even ME3, up until the ending, were widely considered great games.

Maybe it wasn't even possible for the endings to live up to all of the expectations--I personally think they could have been done better, but that's my personal opinion.

I don't like, or have to like, the ending, even with the extended cut. I appreciated their efforts to make it less horrible and less depressing with the extended cut, but the ending is still only "tolerable" to me. I'm not going to apologize for feeling that way, but I've spoken with people who were satisfied or even happy with the endings. I'm happy for them, and I wish I could feel the same.

I think most of us who are/were unhappy with the endings are long past the point of raging over it. I'll still discuss it, off-forum, from time to time, but what's done is done and the devs are not going to magically come up with millions of dollars and the spare time to suddenly fix everything the angry fans thought was wrong. Unless there's a remake of the entire series ten or twenty years from now, the ending is just going to be as it is. There's no sense demanding change or raging over it. Instead, I'm just hoping that ME4 is A) a sequel, and offers a more satisfying ending than ME3. Not to mention that I also hope that there's a bit more open dialogue between the devs and the fans from now on and less hostility, because developers and fans should definitely not be hostile to one another. They should be on the same side.

I rarely, rarely ever post on forums (in fact this is my first time on the bsn I think), but I wanted to say this is the kind of post I think we all wish we could see more of.  You hated the endings, but you're willing to still behave rationally.

[StElmo]

harliquin89 wrote...


I rarely, rarely ever post on forums (in fact this is my first time on the bsn I think), but I wanted to say this is the kind of post I think we all wish we could see more of.  You hated the endings, but you're willing to still behave rationally.

My problem was I hung around here too long and jumped in on this bandwagon of joking about how bad everything was, when I initially thought the tone of the endings was pretty awesome - I only came on here to ask a few questions.

If the internet hadn't existed I probably would have been really content with what I played - but instead the negative cultural bandwagon sweeped me up - sad really.

Hence the apology.

I don't think I ever singled out any devs or anything like that to blame or attack anyone, but even still I thought the tone of my posts and the attitude you could see in them was something worth openly regretting and apologizing for.

[gosimmons]

It's been a while, but nice to feel some animosity fading.

[Mathias]

StElmo wrote...

harliquin89 wrote...


I rarely, rarely ever post on forums (in fact this is my first time on the bsn I think), but I wanted to say this is the kind of post I think we all wish we could see more of.  You hated the endings, but you're willing to still behave rationally.

My problem was I hung around here too long and jumped in on this bandwagon of joking about how bad everything was, when I initially thought the tone of the endings was pretty awesome - I only came on here to ask a few questions.

If the internet hadn't existed I probably would have been really content with what I played - but instead the negative cultural bandwagon sweeped me up - sad really.

Hence the apology.

I don't think I ever singled out any devs or anything like that to blame or attack anyone, but even still I thought the tone of my posts and the attitude you could see in them was something worth openly regretting and apologizing for.

So in other words, first you loved the endings, then you hated them because you jumped on the "bandwagon", and now you've done some soul searching and you love the endings again?

I do have a problem with you calling it the "negative cultural bandwagon", as in people are just hating the ending for the sake of hating it, instead of having valid reasons for disliking the piece of crap. That may not have been your intention but it certaintly comes off that way.

Modifié par Mdoggy1214, 31 janvier 2013 - 04:58 .

[StElmo]

Mdoggy1214 wrote...

StElmo wrote...

harliquin89 wrote...


I rarely, rarely ever post on forums (in fact this is my first time on the bsn I think), but I wanted to say this is the kind of post I think we all wish we could see more of.  You hated the endings, but you're willing to still behave rationally.

My problem was I hung around here too long and jumped in on this bandwagon of joking about how bad everything was, when I initially thought the tone of the endings was pretty awesome - I only came on here to ask a few questions.

If the internet hadn't existed I probably would have been really content with what I played - but instead the negative cultural bandwagon sweeped me up - sad really.

Hence the apology.

I don't think I ever singled out any devs or anything like that to blame or attack anyone, but even still I thought the tone of my posts and the attitude you could see in them was something worth openly regretting and apologizing for.

So in other words, first you loved the endings, then you hated them because you jumped on the "bandwagon", and now you've done some soul searching and you love the endings again?

I do have a problem with you calling it the "negative cultural bandwagon", as in people are just hating the ending for the sake of hating it, instead of having valid reasons for disliking the piece of crap. That may not have been your intention but it certaintly comes off that way.

"I didn't like how it ended." is very different from everyone making jokes memes and finding a billion different ways to say the same thing and making a billion different threads as a result - it's a feedback loop, it isn't the same natural reaction people would have if there was no one to talk about it with.

It's very much an act before you think enviroment. I guess that is what I am highlighting.

[Missy_MI]

StElmo wrote...
"I didn't like how it ended." is very different from everyone making jokes memes and finding a billion different ways to say the same thing and making a billion different threads as a result - it's a feedback loop, it isn't the same natural reaction people would have if there was no one to talk about it with.

I agree with you to a certain extent. I disliked the original endings and BSN became my refuge to talk to other fans who felt the same way. But after reading tons of threads about plot holes and watching hour long videos dissecting every perceived flaw, I ended up being upset about things that I didn't even notice or care about that much in the beginning.

Haven't read over my posts from back then, but I'm sure there were many that weren't exactly constructive. So I apologize as well.

It was good of you to start this thread StElmo.

Modifié par Missy_MI, 31 janvier 2013 - 06:02 .

[Neverwinter_Knight77]

Why do people keep apologizing?  We're not the ones who wrote the ending.

[RukiaKuchki]

OP - I clearly remember that you were very mean spirited to Bioware and inexplicably rude to many BSN posters whose opinion differed from your own...myself included. You certainly weren't the worst (and most entertaining) though :-)

Still, kudos to you for doing this, most certainly wouldn't. It doesn't make your opinions any less valid, but as it's been said a thousand times, it's not what you say that offends, it's how you say it. Reactions to some games are almost visceral, but over time opinions can change because you yourself change. When I first played ME1, I thought it was rubbish. I don't know why, but I was expecting more of a shooter, and after spending several hours wandering aimlessly around the Citadel and repeatedly getting killed at Chora's den, I switched off and didn't come back for many months. Then something just 'clicked' and I got it. And the rest, they say, is history. I think for some of us, we got the game and were expecting something so magnificent, so perfect that Bioware (or anyone else for that matter) just couldn't meet our expectations because the standard had been set so high with the previous installments. Unfortunately, if you are so good, you're gonna have a hiccup at some point. I have yet to play a 'perfect' game (I've yet to find the perfect anything to be honest... even my gorgeous fluffy super-friendly kitty kat farts terribly so even he isn't perfect lol), but I have played many where I've had so much fun, I've loved the characters or the music or something... that I'm more than willing to overlook the negatives. And if I can't overlook the negatives...I just cut it loose and move on to something else.

Modifié par RukiaKuchki, 31 janvier 2013 - 08:31 .

[StElmo]

RukiaKuchki wrote...

OP - I clearly remember that you were very mean spirited to Bioware and inexplicably rude to many BSN posters whose opinion differed from your own...

I don't remember being rude to other posters, nor would it have been my intention to BE mean spirited to anyone on BSN or at BioWare, but I am sad I came accross that way and certainly apologize that I wrote in such a reckless way. Making stupid jokes and all that, really wasn't constructive or helpful and I regret that.

Even if I don't remember being rude to other posters or staff, thats not an excuse so I apologize

Modifié par StElmo, 31 janvier 2013 - 01:21 .

[StElmo]

Missy_MI wrote...

StElmo wrote...
"I didn't like how it ended." is very different from everyone making jokes memes and finding a billion different ways to say the same thing and making a billion different threads as a result - it's a feedback loop, it isn't the same natural reaction people would have if there was no one to talk about it with.

I agree with you to a certain extent. I disliked the original endings and BSN became my refuge to talk to other fans who felt the same way. But after reading tons of threads about plot holes and watching hour long videos dissecting every perceived flaw, I ended up being upset about things that I didn't even notice or care about that much in the beginning.

Haven't read over my posts from back then, but I'm sure there were many that weren't exactly constructive. So I apologize as well.

It was good of you to start this thread StElmo.

No problems, as I said, all my favorite games have my criticisms. Posting about it online, however, was a new thing for Mass Effect and look where that went after you get sucked into the negativity loop. It's a good learning experience for me, because in the future I will consider before I write posts.

[res27772]

What's with all the apologies lately? Finally worn out your resolve, have they? lol

[StElmo]

res27772 wrote...

What's with all the apologies lately? Finally worn out your resolve, have they? lol

No just some well needed self critique.

[Cashmoney007]

Is this what the BSN has become? There is never anything wrong with having an opinion about a game. I just thought it was crazy that people would actually threaten Bioware. But constructive criticism is never a bad thing.

[StElmo]

Cashmoney007 wrote...

Is this what the BSN has become? There is never anything wrong with having an opinion about a game. I just thought it was crazy that people would actually threaten Bioware. But constructive criticism is never a bad thing.

Is it constructve though? getting in a big comment party with a bunch of other negative people and "agreeing" how "bad" something is without any discussion and mostly meme style jokes and sillyness?

Add to that the fact that most people only really started laying it on thick after they dug up a variety of things to sling about as though there is some kind of "proof" that BioWare wanted to ruin our day.

When really, you would never have noticed nor cared if you had finished the game yourself, never gone online and just left it at that.

I think the online community changed me and several other people into acting in ways we otherwise would not in terms of how we spoke about the game and how we spoke about the endings.

As I said, my first post on here was "I liked the tone of the endings" - a week later I'm 5x more negative... makes no sense.

Online forums are a terrible place to critique a game. Period.

[Mathias]

Cashmoney007 wrote...

Is this what the BSN has become? There is never anything wrong with having an opinion about a game. I just thought it was crazy that people would actually threaten Bioware. But constructive criticism is never a bad thing.

I think Bioware's definition of constructive criticism is different from most people's.

[TheRealJayDee]

StElmo wrote...

Is it constructve though? getting in a big comment party with a bunch of other negative people and "agreeing" how "bad" something is without any discussion and mostly meme style jokes and sillyness?

Well, if that's all you have seen and participated in since release, okay. I've seen lots of discussion, very eloquent, very thorough.

StElmo wrote...

Add to that the fact that most people only really started laying it on thick after they dug up a variety of things to sling about as though there is some kind of "proof" that BioWare wanted to ruin our day.

When really, you would never have noticed nor cared if you had finished the game yourself, never gone online and just left it at that.

Yeah, I would have prefered to come to the BSN after finishing the game to talk about all the great things I've experienced in my playthrough, and to hear about the experiences of other gamers. Sadly for me and many people there were pressing matters to discuss that weren't all around positive, to say the least. Before and after release actually. Face import fail, excessive auto-dialogue, the EMS/singleplayer issue, the controversial endings etc.

Yes, many smaller things might not have been noticed by everyone individually, but well, we live in a time that has the internet and the BSN is a place specificially created to talk about Bioware games, so people meeting eacht other here to talk about things seems kinda logical.

StElmo wrote...

I think the online community changed me and several other people into acting in ways we otherwise would not in terms of how we spoke about the game and how we spoke about the endings.

As I said, my first post on here was "I liked the tone of the endings" - a week later I'm 5x more negative... makes no sense.

Well, many have been critical from the start and are critical today. Many have left.

StElmo wrote...

Online forums are a terrible place to critique a game. Period.

I disagree.

[StElmo]

TheRealJayDee wrote...

StElmo wrote...

Is it constructve though? getting in a big comment party with a bunch of other negative people and "agreeing" how "bad" something is without any discussion and mostly meme style jokes and sillyness?

Well, if that's all you have seen and participated in since release, okay. I've seen lots of discussion, very eloquent, very thorough.

StElmo wrote...

Add to that the fact that most people only really started laying it on thick after they dug up a variety of things to sling about as though there is some kind of "proof" that BioWare wanted to ruin our day.

When really, you would never have noticed nor cared if you had finished the game yourself, never gone online and just left it at that.

Yeah, I would have prefered to come to the BSN after finishing the game to talk about all the great things I've experienced in my playthrough, and to hear about the experiences of other gamers. Sadly for me and many people there were pressing matters to discuss that weren't all around positive, to say the least. Before and after release actually. Face import fail, excessive auto-dialogue, the EMS/singleplayer issue, the controversial endings etc.

Yes, many smaller things might not have been noticed by everyone individually, but well, we live in a time that has the internet and the BSN is a place specificially created to talk about Bioware games, so people meeting eacht other here to talk about things seems kinda logical.

StElmo wrote...

I think the online community changed me and several other people into acting in ways we otherwise would not in terms of how we spoke about the game and how we spoke about the endings.

As I said, my first post on here was "I liked the tone of the endings" - a week later I'm 5x more negative... makes no sense.

Well, many have been critical from the start and are critical today. Many have left.

StElmo wrote...

Online forums are a terrible place to critique a game. Period.

I disagree.

I prefer blog post type articles, then you don't have this wierd tension between members and impressioned "attitude".

[Kroitz]

Snake91 wrote...

Kroitz wrote...

Alien Number Six wrote...

Snake91 wrote...

Wait wait wait the ending still sucks that with breathing scene is like a cut with scissors and you Apologies for what because Bioware disrespect you because Bioware ignores you because they lies you why you Apologies

This is the type of garbage that is too often seen on BSN.

How did you decipher it? Are you a prothean?

Idiots...

Wait,
I think he asked about meeting the leaders of our planet just now ...

[Abraham_uk]

I must admit that I was swept away in a huge torrent of negativity.
I tend to generate my own brand of negativity too.

But I really loved Mass Effect trilogy. I love every game in the trilogy.
I'm looking forward to more.

At Bioware
Please don't be discouraged to make a Mass Effect game set after the events of Mass Effect 3.

[rapscallioness]

I'm happy for you StElmo. A lil self analysis is awesome.

But honestly I wish you would stop posting these threads abt. your "come to Jesus" moment, because all you're really doing is stirring up the very shyte you obviously want to quell.

[StElmo]

rapscallioness wrote...

I'm happy for you StElmo. A lil self analysis is awesome.

But honestly I wish you would stop posting these threads abt. your "come to Jesus" moment, because all you're really doing is stirring up the very shyte you obviously want to quell.

I made 2 threads. One was to apologize the other one was to say we shoulod simply embrace the game as is and have fun. Sorry ):

Didn't think that was a lot :S

[Super-Model]

StElmo wrote...

I was just recently looking over old BSN posts/youtube comments/reddit comments/ other forum posts of mine and was shocked to see how sensationalist and mean spirited the way I wrote came accross.

Obviously I never meant anything personal by what I have written, ad hominem has never been my thing, nor is it good for anyones soul - but the impassioned way I wrote, clearly swept up in the whole antagonistic community culture, defintely comes accross as mean spirited and or snarky and or "shouty" - towards a team that gave me some of my most memorable gaming experiences - this seems wrong to me.

So I would just like to straight up apologize to any staff who may have seen my posts and took it personally or were given grief by the culture I have contributed to :S

The other interesting thing is I liked ME3 a lot when I finished it, but the negativity and snarkyness seemed to come out as I got more and more sucked in to finding faults on the BSN.

This was incredibly interesting as it seems like my criticisms raised with the negative attitude of others, almost like a feedback loop :S

Obviously I have criticisms of any game I play - even my favorite games, but the tone seems off in hindsight, particularly given my reaction declined the longer I spent in these forums.

After some self critical and constructive thought I actually don't have this animosity or sillyness in me, I don't think, but I would just like to apologize for not helping with the atmosphere on the forums last year.

Mass Effect is a great bit of escapism and their are worse things in the world than to be finding fault with a game - a peice of entertainment.

The thought mostly crossed my mind when I saw EA CEO sitting next to Joe Biden - my two minds collided and realized, why do I care if an entertainment company doesn't do 'exactly' as I see fit? I should be putting this energy towards corrupt and malignant governments - Obama sends drones off the pakistan for gods sake, yet I give BioWare more of my time? just a bunch of guys and gals trying to entertain me

So yeah, big apologies to you guys, those old posts of mine were terrible,

ME3 is a great bit of entertainment and I had a great time playing it, I'm really sorry I got sucked into a bandwagon.

Good luck with your future projects.

Oh and if I feel this way? I'm willing to be other people feel like me now too

EDIT2: if it's any consolation I tried to go back and delete many of my posts from around the net which I thought were mean spirited, but if I missed any and you see them, I'm sorry ): I have different usernames around the internet so it was hard to find stuff, but yeah, wow, I was a jerk at some points there ):

It Takes a certain type of courage to come out in pulic and admit you are wrong, on behalf of me myself and I , thanks