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#1
Dieb

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edit: formatting fixed. sorry.


Hello there,

You read it on an everyday basis, so I don't need to tell you what most threads opened in this forum are about.

There is one thing, however, that really angers me:
Wild assumptions regarding staff members, assignment of guilt over specific topics, and downright personal insults. Most of these hurled at people like of course Casey Hudson, Mac Walters, Mike Gamble and/or George Lucas. (find the mismatch)

Why am I writing this?
It's mainly about procedure, the proces of making a game and of course, the ever dreaded work relationship with a publisher -as far as I got to witness it that is, explanation below. Also because my momma taught me.

Who am I to write this?

I do voice acting for audio dramas, but (happily) mostly video game localizations, in Germany. I do however, have many work-related friends in the industry because of that, and people talk. To clear things up I was not doing any work for the Mass Effect series so far (even though, from a personal gamer point of view, working on a BW gig would be a no-brainer for me to sign), and am in no way associated with EA or BioWare. So no, I do not claim to be some kind of mysterious leak source, I just claim I may have a little more insight into general procedure during the production of a video game.

What sets me off every time is the model statement

"There is no IT/other ending related theory, Hudson/Gamble/Walters messed that up because they have no idea/do not care about the game/story/fans."

That may sound unfair, but  in my personal opinion, when you strip most statements down, this is what remains. Comments like this anger me - Because people simply have no idea if it was like that.
Yet they call out names in the need of a graspable scapegoat, whilst insulting others of making absurd claims in the need of a satisfying explanation. Funny, that.

It is just as reasonable to assume that the people who thought of & worked on the franchise for the better part of ten years, may in fact not hate their own offspring all of sudden, when it's the most important to get things "right".

Maybe the decision came from somewhere higher up. I especially like to emphasize here that these things often happen at a point far into the production, when there's no easy going back anymore. We've seen it in ME2, there are dark energy hints all over the place, but time was obviously too short to remove them from the final product, so only the biggest misconclusions were actually removed to steer the ship in the demanded direction.

It's sometimes enough to be hired as a VA on a project. And even though you just have those lines & sentences, and read them in no particular narrative order, it sometimes happens you get to re-read a scene a week later, that might even directly contradict what you read the day before. I cannot say what it is like with EA as a client, (though I only heard the best - come on guys, I do need to eat)  but even in a position isolated from the actual production of a game, you sometimes definitely feel that these are last-minute edits, some of them total game-changers. You get a feel for the story naturally - "I have no idea what my guy looks like, but he's probably my age and I know what he thinks." - something like that. It happens a lot, and I haven't even done any leads so far.

I'm honestly sick and tired of people giving a guy like Casey Hudson so much crap over how he ruined the series. You might think, in his position, and the assumingly many all-nighters he spent with the team on making the three games, that maaaaybe he even loves them more than many of us do.


All I'm saying is,

1. These things happen. And then, people like Hudson, who stand between a triangle of the publisher, his team and the fans, he will have to explain it and find a way to make it work.

2. The most important: It is save to assume that the three that are the most commonly accused staff members, are most likely the ones that spend the most time on the project. The video game industry may be a big corporate landscape in comparison to the earlier days now, but it's still no business you get into hating the things you do.


And if you worked on a game project, like I hear some of my friends spending night after night on a weekend, you will either love it, or find another job. The above things are basically what they all tell me.

Who knows what really happened, I don't.
But my momma told me not to call people on things you can't say they did.

Thanks for reading,
Bael

P.S.: I am not going to state details about any work I've done so far, neither what projects my mentioned friends are currently or have been involved in. If that ruins my credibility, so be it.

P.P.S.: Yes, I edited the title.

Modifié par Baelrahn, 30 janvier 2013 - 07:16 .


#2
MstrJedi Kyle

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Personally, I think a lot of the outrage came from the reactions, or lack there of, from BioWare and the media. You have to admit that the vanilla ending of ME3 was empty feeling. EC helped with that (I personally think it still left too much open but a free 2 gig download showed me that BioWare wanted to set it right so I called it good.) but that original ending was bad.

When the fans brought it up we were met with snide comments about how we were acting like entitled brats. There was hostility and we answered back with hostility. Not the best approach but that seems to be what happened. There was no words from BioWare other than artistic integrity which, to me at least, felt like BioWare saying we don't care you aren't important to us. Coming from a company that we all love and has always talked about taking in fan feedback fueled the fires even more. All of this caused there to be a lot of rage and anger and as humans we have to direct it somewhere and unfortunately it gets directed at the people that tend to be the face of a company. We all knew Casey was the main guy for Mass Effect so when **** hit the fan he was the easiest target to hit, then it of course spread to the others, Mac Walters, Mike Gamble, etc.

I'm not saying that it was right I'm just saying that's how people are.

#3
Dieb

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Uh, that should have went into the Story Discussion board. Can we get a move here please, moderators?

Modifié par Baelrahn, 30 janvier 2013 - 02:00 .


#4
spirosz

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Diana Allers.

Modifié par spirosz, 30 janvier 2013 - 02:01 .


#5
Guest_Aotearas_*

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Who's Geroge?

Also, of'friggin'course you're right with that. People should really stop acting like prepubescent spoiled brats that cry when they don't get the Lollipop they wanted right now.


If you don't like something, give reasons, maybe even solution proposals if you can think of them, and state your business is a civilized, constructive manner. It is entirely okay to not be on good terms with something, but there has to be a reason. And chemical incompatibility is not an excuse on the internet, because you DON'T suffer any pheromone onslaught that's ringing subconscious alarm klaxons.

#6
Haargel

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Well said !

#7
SimonTheFrog

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Weeeellllll...

There was this "leak" from an insider claiming that the ending was deliberately not written by the team of writers but by the guys mentioned in OP's quote.

This information combined with the lack of any other information or clarification from BioWare spawned the mistrust in these guys.

I don't think anybody didn't appreciate their love and involvement into the project.

But I agree, we all know that somebody screwed up, we don't know who exactly.

#8
Dieb

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Neofelis Nebulosa wrote...

Who's Geroge?

George Lucas was William Shatner's on-set hairstylist during the first season of Battlestar Galactica.

OT:
In all seriousness, they received death threats. I wouldn't publicly put my name under it either, following these reactions.

#9
MaldororAzrael

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While I definitely agree that calling people names, trying to threaten them and generally acting in a childish manner on the forums is wrong on many, many levels, I think that based on the vast evidence (as in - comments made by Bioware staff) we can safely asume that the decisions regarding the endings were made by Casey Hudson and Mac Walters. For that reason, it makes sense that they are both considered responsible for the disappointment that many players felt while playing through the final chapter of the trilogy.

It just so happens that I also work in the industry (And yes, I must make the same disclaimer - I'm not Bioware, EA, I haven't done any work on the ME series) and in all honesty, I wish that all my co workers had the "I love my job despite long hours and crazy deadlines" approach your collegues seem to have. :D

This is not to say that we all hate our jobs, but I can safely say that I've seen many bad decisions made on all levels of leadership, ranging from QA leads, localisation managers and all the way up to publishers.

In this light, while I agree that Mr Hudson or anybody else involved in ME on this high level would never do anything to consciously sabotage their own project, I know that it doesn't take a publisher's intervention to force bad decision made with good intentions on a game.

We will almost certainly never know what's the whole story behind the endings and other aspects of ME3 that came under harsh criticism, but still, while respecting and appreciating all the hard work the entire ME team put on the series, I believe that the certain people made some serious mistakes and being in charge, it is understandable that they are the ones who have to deal with the aftermath even if the decisions were influenced by people even higher up in the corporate chain.

#10
Guest_Aotearas_*

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Baelrahn wrote...

Neofelis Nebulosa wrote...

Who's Geroge?

George Lucas was William Shatner's on-set hairstylist during the first season of Battlestar Galactica.

OT:
In all seriousness, they received death threats. I wouldn't publicly put my name under it either, following these reactions.




Read again.[/tongueincheek]

#11
Dieb

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Neofelis Nebulosa wrote...


Read again.[/tongueincheek]

Well, so much for my attempt at a joke for the week.


MaldororAzrael wrote...

It just so happens that I also work in the industry (And yes, I must make the same disclaimer - I'm not Bioware, EA, I haven't done any work on the ME series) and in all honesty, I wish that all my co workers had the "I love my job despite long hours and crazy deadlines" approach your collegues seem to have. :D


Again, I'm not a developer, I'm a voice actor. During the course of working for games, I made friends with people who are - so you actually have more insight into the matter than I ever will.
In fairness to them, maybe I wasn't saying it clearly enough: They don't love working late on a weekend, but they love their job and know that in this job, long hours aren't the exception.

MaldororAzrael wrote...

In this light, while I agree that Mr Hudson or anybody else involved in ME on this high level would never do anything to consciously sabotage their own project, I know that it doesn't take a publisher's intervention to force bad decision made with good intentions on a game.


This puts it perfectly. I wasn't defending everything they ever did. Just them being people.

Modifié par Baelrahn, 30 janvier 2013 - 02:54 .


#12
Morty Smith

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Leadership in any branch doesn´t come without responsibility. Lead-"designer-writer-producer"-ship is no exception.

I don´t endorse or approve of the extreme behaviour that fans showed in recent month, but I also can´t stand it, when the critizism is reduced to these extremes to ignore or belittle it.

#13
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The truth is that now there is put too much heat on the fans (lol).
Being sarcastic and saying that IGN "is in EAs arse" got me temp-banned. Sorry, I am not going to change the sarcastic and negative theme of some of my posts - that was the point, that's how I show my negative attitude towards IGN being biased while they should be objective. It was called "unnecessary hate" and the mod who banned me had issue with exactly explaining why I was banned. Or he was lazy or just felt so.

I understand that it is a backfire from fans putting too much heat on Bioware after release of Mass Effect 3.
Issue is that BW did not convince anybody back then that they listened. That they cared, that they apologise for pre-release promises that they did not fulfuill. That was the feeling of the most of the fanbase - that they got buttraped for cash, that their favorite universe got blown into pieces by poor logic and poor writing.

And why the hate is focused on few people? Well, hate was focused on the people fans knew to be associated with Mass Effect 3. The main faces. Who else they could address?
And yes, saying not nice things is not nice. Sure, but some people get pissed off. When they get pissed off they are calling names. It's a natural reaction... Nearly. And let's the angry person blow off steam... Yeah, selfish, but what is not really?

And You can bring up the old argument - this is their game. Yes it is. But saying that because of that the fans should **** off is more than arrogance. Without the fans, Mass Effect 2 would never exist. Not even mentioning the ME3. Because these were the people who bought the bloody game.

#14
Dieb

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I'm absolutely not saying that... again I don't boast my occupation as a way of saying "I speak for the industry, and here's what you did wrong" - not only would I be out of my mind claiming to have a say in the video game industry for doing a few localization VOs, I just see the work progress a bit differently. Due to the people I met and the experiences I gained during.
Other than that, I am just a fan of the series & gamer first, and I as well had my issues with many creative decisions. The fans made it happen, and if some staff member ever called anyone "entitled brats" for voicing his dislike over certain things, then said employee should do nothing but go **** himself, with all due respect as Ashley might say.

Being annoyed by something, and than just quickly retorting "Ah, screw you man" is as natural as you naked carcass. But I think we can all agree that a lot of people were way out of line. And still are - and that's what I'm adressing here.

I love discussing the story on this board, I'm just so very tired of skipping through the gazillions of "Casey this", "BW you that" threads - that was the whole fuel for writing this wall of whine in the first place.

Modifié par Baelrahn, 30 janvier 2013 - 06:13 .


#15
Ninja Stan

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There is a lot of misconception in your post, DarthKilby. Over the last year or so, I've tried to correct these statements wherever possible, because some people use them as fuel for their anger even though the statements are, at best, misremembered or taken out of context.

DarthKilby wrote...

When the fans brought it up we were met with snide comments about how we were acting like entitled brats.

The ones being labeled as "entitled" were those who kept demanding that BioWare change the ending because those asking were "loyal fans" or "paid BioWare's salary" or "were paying customers." Because no one likes to be told they're wrong, that caused an uproar that was reported in the media, which caused fans with legitimate concerns to feel like they were being lumped in with the others. At no time did anyone from BioWare claim that everyone, or even most people, were acting like entitled brats. Only those who were actually acting like entitled brats were being dismissed as such.

There was hostility and we answered back with hostility. Not the best approach but that seems to be what happened.

Neither BioWare, EA, or any of its staff posted hostile public statements with regard to ME3. No BioWare employee ever called the fans names or demanded any fans be banned from gaming. No BioWare developer ever went on a tirade insulting, demeaning, or degrading the fans. No BioWarian has ever been banned from the BSN due to abusive conduct towards the fans. No fan has ever been called "wrong" for simply stating their opinions of the ending. (Mor eon that in the next section.)

There was no words from BioWare other than artistic integrity which, to me at least, felt like BioWare saying we don't care you aren't important to us. Coming from a company that we all love and has always talked about taking in fan feedback fueled the fires even more.

"Artistic integrity" was never used by BioWare to dismiss negative feedback. I will repeat that, since this gets brought up a lot. The term and concept of "artistic integrity" was never used to dismiss fan feedback. Period.

Please re-read that a couple of times before continuing.

Thank you. The term "artistic integrity" was used in Ray's message of support and defense of the Mass Effect 3 team at a time when it seemed everyone was against them. Ray came out publicly to state his support for the team and that he and they stood behind the work they did on the game, no matter what was being complained about or criticized. That is what good bosses do.

The term was then taken by those who misread, misunderstoof, or deliberately misappropriated Ray's message and made into a punchline, used once again as fuel for the anger the fans already felt. Read the actual message where "artistic integrity" appears without assuming Ray hates you, and you'll likely see the term in a different light. It doesn't mean "ME3 is art and can't be criticized." It doesn't mean "we're artists so screw you." It doesn't mean "the ending is so good, you're too stupid to understand it." It means something more like "the ME3 team worked very hard for years to make this game (and trilogy) and Ray thinks that sort of dedication and hard work is commendable and should be appreciated and respected, even if you didn't like parts of it."

I hope that helps.

#16
RocketManSR2

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As a simple consumer, no, I don't have many facts to go on. I just know that something got all FUBAR'd. There is just no way a talented team of people like those that work for BioWare would willingly write such a terrible ending unless something caused it to become necessary, i.e. a time crunch caused by EA. I refuse to believe that ending was BioWare's original vision. The problem is nobody will come forward and tell us. They just hit us with PR speak and tow the company line.

Modifié par RocketManSR2, 30 janvier 2013 - 06:46 .


#17
Ninja Stan

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RocketManSR2 wrote...

As a simple consumer, no, I don't have many facts to go on. I just know that someone f***ed up and f***ed up bad. There is just no way a talented team of people like those that work for BioWare would willingly write such a terrible ending unless something caused it to become necessary, i.e. a time crunch caused by EA. I refuse to believe that ending was BioWare's original vision.

You are free to believe what you like, but let me ask you this, RocketManSR2:

If there is "just no way a talented team of people like those that work for BioWare would willingly write such a terrible ending unless something caused it to become necessary," then how can any creative project ever fail or be disliked? I'm sure you are familiar with a book, TV show, film, comic, or web series that didn't do well. How can that be, if talented people are perfect until and unless outside forces cause problems? :)

#18
RocketManSR2

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I know that no one is perfect, but the whole team putting a stamp of approval on that ending? I'll never know, but a few members of the team had to have spoken up. One comment I read from Mike Gamble, I think, saying that a "few" players will be angry at the ending shows that not everyone was happy with the decision to go with what ended up in the game. Again, I'm fully aware of the creative process and that majority wins, or the project lead says to do it anyway. I will just be stuck with that ending to one of the greatest trilogies of this gaming generation and that is far more sad than the ending itself.

- Stan, look at Rannoch and Tuchanka. That is an example of the kind of great storytelling that BioWare is known for. Both missions had me shedding manly tears. The ending of the game felt like it had been done by some dude that was brought in off the street and had never played ME before. The ending just left me feeling hollow if anything at all. Idk, that's the only way to describe it. It wasn't ME anymore, it was just another sci-fi shooter. 

Modifié par RocketManSR2, 30 janvier 2013 - 07:07 .


#19
Dieb

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So this is how communication works once everybody just watches their vocabulary...

Modifié par Baelrahn, 30 janvier 2013 - 06:57 .


#20
Zerker

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SimonTheFrog wrote...
we all know that somebody screwed up, we don't know who exactly.



#21
Morty Smith

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Baelrahn wrote...

So this is how communication works once everybody just watches their vocabulary...


This is how it works if you look past of what you are set out to see.

Modifié par Kroitz, 30 janvier 2013 - 07:09 .


#22
element eater

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its doesnt matter who's to blame the fact is its there and its awful and was absolutely depressing for me to experiance. Is any single idvidual culpable? well i have no way of knowing that, but then it doesnt realy matter either way.

all i can say is that regardless of whos fault it is i feel like no one from bioware has ever realy adressed this dissapointment or discussed it in a meaningful way and that because of the stance bioware are taking my issues are never going to be resolved

also op public figures will always take the heat thats just how it is its not a phenomenon unique to bioware or even the games industry`

#23
Guest_Official DJ Harbinger_*

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So people don't have a right to be pissed about their favorite series having a bloody awful ending? I'm sorry but people like you who jump to their defense are ridiculous. BioWare ****ed up BIG TIME with Mass Effect 3 (it's ending mainly) and we deserve a decent end.

Hudson and Walters locked every other writer out of the ending for their "artistic integrity", Gamble himself said some people won't like the ending, understatement there.

It's very clear what happened, the original concept for the ending was leaked so the two genius' locked themselves away in a room and threw up something and went with it.

#24
Iakus

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Ninja Stan wrote...

RocketManSR2 wrote...

As a simple consumer, no, I don't have many facts to go on. I just know that someone f***ed up and f***ed up bad. There is just no way a talented team of people like those that work for BioWare would willingly write such a terrible ending unless something caused it to become necessary, i.e. a time crunch caused by EA. I refuse to believe that ending was BioWare's original vision.

You are free to believe what you like, but let me ask you this, RocketManSR2:

If there is "just no way a talented team of people like those that work for BioWare would willingly write such a terrible ending unless something caused it to become necessary," then how can any creative project ever fail or be disliked? I'm sure you are familiar with a book, TV show, film, comic, or web series that didn't do well. How can that be, if talented people are perfect until and unless outside forces cause problems? :)


Nobody is perfect.  Mistakes do get made.  And yes, Bioware has made mistakes in teh past.

But something on the magnitude of the ending of ME3, from what up until now had been such an overall reliable group as Bioware, is frankly mind-boggling.

#25
Guest_Official DJ Harbinger_*

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Ninja Stan wrote...

RocketManSR2 wrote...

As a simple consumer, no, I don't have many facts to go on. I just know that someone f***ed up and f***ed up bad. There is just no way a talented team of people like those that work for BioWare would willingly write such a terrible ending unless something caused it to become necessary, i.e. a time crunch caused by EA. I refuse to believe that ending was BioWare's original vision.

You are free to believe what you like, but let me ask you this, RocketManSR2:

If there is "just no way a talented team of people like those that work for BioWare would willingly write such a terrible ending unless something caused it to become necessary," then how can any creative project ever fail or be disliked? I'm sure you are familiar with a book, TV show, film, comic, or web series that didn't do well. How can that be, if talented people are perfect until and unless outside forces cause problems? :)


Oh, here we go guys, BioWare's defending their excuse of an ending...

Modifié par Official DJ Harbinger, 30 janvier 2013 - 07:17 .