137 réponses à ce sujet

[Anthadlas]

Most of this was easily caused by the absolute blackout of information or feedback from Bioware after the endings.

People were disappointed with the ending and were looking for some some of response to explain what happened but it seems the devs just went quiet and hoped the situation would go away.

Unfortunatley the only way to get the devs attention was to keep shouting louder and make the problem bigger until they had no choice but to answer, After which any legitimate response would be met with hostility as it appeared the community was being ignored.

Modifié par Wraith 02, 30 janvier 2013 - 07:20 .

[Morty Smith]

Official DJ Harbinger wrote...

Ninja Stan wrote...

RocketManSR2 wrote...

As a simple consumer, no, I don't have many facts to go on. I just know that someone f***ed up and f***ed up bad. There is just no way a talented team of people like those that work for BioWare would willingly write such a terrible ending unless something caused it to become necessary, i.e. a time crunch caused by EA. I refuse to believe that ending was BioWare's original vision.

You are free to believe what you like, but let me ask you this, RocketManSR2:

If there is "just no way a talented team of people like those that work for BioWare would willingly write such a terrible ending unless something caused it to become necessary," then how can any creative project ever fail or be disliked? I'm sure you are familiar with a book, TV show, film, comic, or web series that didn't do well. How can that be, if talented people are perfect until and unless outside forces cause problems?

Oh, here we go guys, BioWare's defending their excuse of an ending...

Dude, not cool. Take the chill-pill.

[Grubas]

Maybe we talk for a change about the reason that partly caused this ****storm, shouldnt we? Statements that were made, that shouldnt have been made, that were missleading and false or extremly ambitious, as we have found out afterward.
Im talking about statements that could only refer to the finished game, because of the time and because the person(s) in question was(were) in the position to know the content of the game and therefore provide a (maybe ambigous, maybe slightly hyped but) still truthfull statement, but choose instead to further hype...

You know what im heading at, i would really really love at some point to talk about pre-release developer statements that devs obviously avoid like something contagious.

[RiptideX1090]

Kroitz wrote..

Dude, not cool. Take the chill-pill.

Seriously, I agree. People need to chill the hell out.

Bioware isn't perfect as Stan says, and there are a lot of whiny/insufferable/nauseatingly negative people in this community. Personally, I think the endings are the worst kind of literary garbage, I revile and am perpetually repulsed by them and the thought that anyone could think of them as good story telling. My opinion, of course, but demanding Bioware change things because 'I pay their salaries' or calling them all morons and idiots doesn't solve anything. And it's what pisses me off so much about all this vitriol. Sure, I get upset, too, but people's inability to move past any of it and the constant personal attacks and demands aren't making it any better.

Do I want some kind of post-ending DLC? Do I want closure because I think the endings are both a cliffhanger and thematically abominable? Yes. Hell ****ing yes. But being a jackass about it isn't going to get that to happen, ever. It's detrimental to the community, drives a wedge between the fans and the devs, and nothing gets better.

[Dieb]

Official DJ Harbinger wrote...

It's very clear what happened, the original concept for the ending was leaked so the two genius' locked themselves away in a room and threw up something and went with it.

Well they didn't lock it very well, obviously. Otherwise you wouldn't have been able to witness them do it.

You hated the ending, and you're passionate about it. That's fine. These are the people that ultimately executed this version of the ending. Fine.

But you have no basis to speculate over their intentions or the reasons for doing so. Decisions like that first and foremost aren't purely creative, secondly there are so many more people involved than just those two with a decision like that. I am not saying that I grasp that complexity or process entirely either, but I at least admit that it exists.

Short: As strongly as you believe this is what happen, I disagree displaying someone at BioWare's ego played the main part in such a decision.
Of course, this way it's a lot easier to shout at it, but given the amount of work and money involved in this franchise, I on my part wager that the answer is nowhere near as simple, nor would it read as well in a headline.

Modifié par Baelrahn, 30 janvier 2013 - 07:40 .

[RiptideX1090]

Wraith 02 wrote...

Most of this was easily caused by the absolute blackout of information or feedback from Bioware after the endings.

Also, this.

For God's sake, I wish they'd just level with us completely, from A to Z. Really, could doing so possibly make anything worse at this point? What the hell is synthesis? Why did they change the game's themes at the end? What are their general plans for the future?

The forums are toxic as all hell, but this information blackout isn't helping things at all.

[Iakus]

Wraith 02 wrote...

Most of this was easily caused by the absolute blackout of information or feedback from Bioware after the endings.

People were disappointed with the ending and were looking for some some of response to explain what happened but it seems the devs just went quiet and hoped the situation would go away.

Unfortunatley the only way to get the devs attention was to keep shouting louder and make the problem bigger until they had no choice but to answer, After which any legitimate response would be met with hostility as it appeared the community was being ignored.

Yeah pretty much.

If you go back and lok it was mainly the gaming media tossing around terms like "entitled" and "artistic integrity"  Sadly, Bioware's absolute silence at the time amounted to tacit agreement with them.

[Seishoujyo]

IReuven wrote...

Being sarcastic and saying that IGN "is in EAs arse" got me temp-banned.

They are, it's fact. IGN are corrupted, just look at COD BO2, 9,5/10, lol, and every year it's the same stuff.

As for ME3 the little exchange between EA and IGN is fact too, I m talking about Diana Allers aka Jessica Chobot and the nearly perfect review on IGN.

Doritos/Mountain View Gate all over again.

[Edolix]

^^ Ninja Stan isn't a part of BioWare. He's a voluntary mod.

[Zerker]

You cannot accuse an artist of being incompetent just because he didn't provide what you wanted him to supply for your comfort. It's his story, he can add whatever he wants to it, or end it the way he deems appropriate. Ending of the Mass Effect series didn't have to be "happy" or even provide closure. The problem with the ending sequence was none of those.

Mass Effect have always had a scientific, rational tone, that added character and originality to the series. There were always some funny issues about that, like the simple example of "aliens being too human-ish", but those were easily overlooked considering both the efficiency of well-written civilizations/characters and the "we are trying to sell a damn video game for Christ's sake" side of this story.
But when we reached the end of Mass Effect 3, there was no trace left of that "scientific and rational" tone. It completely disappeared for twenty minutes, the most important twenty minutes of the series if I might add.

We were running to a beam which we know nothing about, we teleported to a part of Citadel which we know nothing about, we professionally used a mysterious console which we have never seen before, and killed a main villain of the series, without knowing how the hell he got to that spesific, isolated location. Then proceeded to meet a godlike AI, who somehow was changed by the gigantic Reaper-off switch we built, and finally, the whole story resolved around "this mysterious device makes you the boss of the reapers, kills synthetic stuff or turn every living being into half-robots by painting them green for some reason, I won't tell you how because f.ck you".

It contradicted the very character of Mass Effect, it destroyed a great gaming experience in minutes, but most importantly, Mass Effect series turned into a usual space opera of the "same old sh*t" genre. People could easily overlook the lack of happy rainbows and Miranda's butt in an ending, it is not what makes a good story after all; but that abomination lacked everything that made this series great, addicting and original.

I can't say the writer(s) responsible from this mess is incompetent just because he ended the series in a way I didn't want it to end. However, I can say that this was an example of "very poor" writing, it violated the established character and consistency of a well-known story, created and continued by multiple artists. Reaction of the fans may not be civil, or even logical, but their passion is understandable.

Modifié par Maddok900, 30 janvier 2013 - 08:44 .

[Sil]

All in all, I think the important thing to note was that Mass Effect 3 needed more time to be fully developped. If it had 6 more months then I am sure many of the bugs would've been fixed, the poor final level would've been upgraded and we'd have had a better game all around. Although I doubt any of the team responsible will admit it, but the sheer amount of bugs and the way the final mission felt so incomplete compared to all other missions in the game, make it clear that they were hard pressed for time.

I am sad that the ending was poor, but I do feel sorry for the team when it is clear that all their hard work and effort was hampered by having too little time to make the game. I do appreciate the great parts they did though, and am thankful to all involved for the work they did. I just wish they had been granted a bit more time.

Modifié par Sil, 30 janvier 2013 - 09:25 .

[The Real Bowser]

Do you really want to do this?  Do you really want to do this?

Bioware downright lied to us about the ending ("It won't be an ending like a, b, or c"... oh wait, it was), left us feeling empty, and topped it off by finishing the game with "Commander Shepard has become a legend by ending the Reaper threat.  Now you can continue to build that legend through further gameplay and downloadable content."

I'm sorry, but I will never, ever be okay with the ending unless it took drastic changes, the likes of which Bioware will never do.  The only thing this post is doing is stirring up these old feelings from a lot of unhappy players.  The best thing you can do is drop the subject and stop posting crap like this.  Because most players that were unhappy with this, will NEVER be okay with it, certainly not with some random dude telling us that we should be nice to the people that lied to us.  Hell no.

I am being nice normally, I'm over this.  I don't really play this game much anymore, but when I see crap like this it makes me want to start getting pissed off again.  So please, cut the bull **** thank you.

[The Real Bowser]

Maddok900 wrote...

You cannot accuse an artist of being incompetent just because he didn't provide what you wanted him to supply for your comfort. It's his story, he can add whatever he wants to it, or end it the way he deems appropriate. Ending of the Mass Effect series didn't have to be "happy" or even provide closure. The problem with the ending sequence was none of those.

Mass Effect have always had a scientific, rational tone, that added character and originality to the series. There were always some funny issues about that, like the simple example of "aliens being too human-ish", but those were easily overlooked considering both the efficiency of well-written civilizations/characters and the "we are trying to sell a damn video game for Christ's sake" side of this story.
But when we reached the end of Mass Effect 3, there was no trace left of that "scientific and rational" tone. It completely disappeared for twenty minutes, the most important twenty minutes of the series if I might add.

We were running to a beam which we know nothing about, we teleported to a part of Citadel which we know nothing about, we professionally used a mysterious console which we have never seen before, and killed a main villain of the series, without knowing how the hell he got to that spesific, isolated location. Then proceeded to meet a godlike AI, who somehow was changed by the gigantic Reaper-off switch we built, and finally, the whole story resolved around "this mysterious device makes you the boss of the reapers, kills synthetic stuff or turn every living being into half-robots by painting them green for some reason, I won't tell you how because f.ck you".

It contradicted the very character of Mass Effect, it destroyed a great gaming experience in minutes, but most importantly, Mass Effect series turned into a usual space opera of the "same old sh*t" genre. People could easily overlook the lack of happy rainbows and Miranda's butt in an ending, it is not what makes a good story after all; but that abomination lacked everything that made this series great, addicting and original.

I can't say the writer(s) responsible from this mess is incompetent just because he ended the series in a way I didn't want it to end. However, I can say that this was an example of "very poor" writing, it violated the established character and consistency of a well-known story, created and continued by multiple artists. Reaction of the fans may not be civil, or even logical, but their passion is understandable.

You want a good comparison?  Try this.

We were told we would be painted a picture of a lion.  Instead, we got a painting of a mouse.  No matter how well you paint that mouse, it will never, ever be a lion.  We paid for that lion.  We did not get what we paid for.  We were lied to, and are quite reasonably upset about it.

We were lied to and taken advantage of.  It's obvious as daylight that they half-assed the ending because they were short on time, not because it was 'artistic integrity'.  I am so sick of hearing this ****.  I have only played one 'artistic' game my entire life, and it sure as hell isn't Mass Effect 3 (Braid, if you're curious.).

Modifié par The Real Bowser, 30 janvier 2013 - 09:37 .

[frostajulie]

Official DJ Harbinger wrote...

Ninja Stan wrote...

RocketManSR2 wrote...

As a simple consumer, no, I don't have many facts to go on. I just know that someone f***ed up and f***ed up bad. There is just no way a talented team of people like those that work for BioWare would willingly write such a terrible ending unless something caused it to become necessary, i.e. a time crunch caused by EA. I refuse to believe that ending was BioWare's original vision.

You are free to believe what you like, but let me ask you this, RocketManSR2:

If there is "just no way a talented team of people like those that work for BioWare would willingly write such a terrible ending unless something caused it to become necessary," then how can any creative project ever fail or be disliked? I'm sure you are familiar with a book, TV show, film, comic, or web series that didn't do well. How can that be, if talented people are perfect until and unless outside forces cause problems?

Oh, here we go guys, BioWare's defending their excuse of an ending...

Maybe but comments like this are why they won't "talk to the fans"  because they get stuck in a damned if you do damned if you don't dance so why bother.  I mean seriously did your one liner add anything to useful to the conversation?

I hate the ending and cannot wrap my mind around it that Bioware the same team that gave me the end of DAO, ME1 and ME2, the same team of talent that gave me Tuchanka and to a lesser extent Rannoch, the same team that gave me the Garrus romance and Jack who I girl-crushed on soooo hard was the same time that wrote that awful, depressing, empty, soul killing ending and if they wrote it that they liked it and even if someone liked it that the entire team liked it enough to stand by it.  I was convinced that someone made them do that.

Now, thanks to the bioware post I feel really bewildered and saddened that there is such a huge disconnect between what Bioware achieved in that ending and what I thought it could have been and I speak I thought what it could have been in the most generic terms, all I wanted was to walk away from ME3 like I have from every video game I ever loved, feeling like the ultimate badass flushed with victory and a bit misty eyed that it was over but taking comfort in the idea that I can go back and replay.

But if that was the ending Bioware truly felt the series deserved and they actually do think it was good.  well I have to wonder if I ever played the games they made  or if I just played some kind of skewed reality version and I just don't get it.  Up to this point I was convinced the emporor had no clothes.  Bioware secretly agreed this ending was bad but for whatever reasons couldn't say so.  I believed the Weekes post 100% because it made sense...

Now...  Maybe the emporor really does have clothes on and I'm just one of the people that can't see them.

[Zerker]

The Real Bowser wrote...
You want a good comparison?  Try this.

We were told we would be painted a picture of a lion.  Instead, we got a painting of a mouse.  No matter how well you paint that mouse, it will never, ever be a lion.  We paid for that lion.  We did not get what we paid for.  We were lied to, and are quite reasonably upset about it.

We were lied to and taken advantage of.  It's obvious as daylight that they half-assed the ending because they were short on time, not because it was 'artistic integrity'.  I am so sick of hearing this ****.  I have only played one 'artistic' game my entire life, and it sure as hell isn't Mass Effect 3 (Braid, if you're curious.).

Read the whole post before responding.

[Dieb]

The Real Bowser wrote...

Do you really want to do this?  Do you really want to do this?

Bioware downright lied to us about the ending ("It won't be an ending like a, b, or c"... oh wait, it was), left us feeling empty, and topped it off by finishing the game with "Commander Shepard has become a legend by ending the Reaper threat.  Now you can continue to build that legend through further gameplay and downloadable content."

I'm sorry, but I will never, ever be okay with the ending unless it took drastic changes, the likes of which Bioware will never do.  The only thing this post is doing is stirring up these old feelings from a lot of unhappy players.  The best thing you can do is drop the subject and stop posting crap like this.  Because most players that were unhappy with this, will NEVER be okay with it, certainly not with some random dude telling us that we should be nice to the people that lied to us.  Hell no.

I am being nice normally, I'm over this.  I don't really play this game much anymore, but when I see crap like this it makes me want to start getting pissed off again.  So please, cut the bull **** thank you.

You're missing the point.
Please take the time to really read any of my posts in this very thread.

This is not about "The endings weren't bad, you don't understand them". This is not a discussion about the ending, it's execution or whether anyone is right with their opinion about it. This is merely about personal insults to developers, which IMO doesn't even have anything to do with a video game for that matter. It's just embarassing and uncalled for.

I can't put this anymore peacefully, but I'm simply not taking the "another thread" thing.
I'm not reopening an old wound, I only started this thread because it won't ever stop, and it get's annoying. More annoying than a lot of things I don't like about the game myself, by now.
It's in fact  the gazillions of non-productive ending-related and/or "BW is terrible for this reason" -threads, which downright ruin my experience in this forum. That's a solid complaint on my part. You have to manically look for an interesting topic/discussion, buried in variants of the latter mentioned threads about the same, well you said it best: bull ****.
So don't you give me that.


P.S.: I may come across in that way, because I haven't stated at all yet what my opinion about the endings etc. is, but again - that is because that's not what I started this thread for. For what it's worth, I didn't like them either.

Modifié par Baelrahn, 30 janvier 2013 - 10:04 .

[The Real Bowser]

Maddok900 wrote...

The Real Bowser wrote...
You want a good comparison?  Try this.

We were told we would be painted a picture of a lion.  Instead, we got a painting of a mouse.  No matter how well you paint that mouse, it will never, ever be a lion.  We paid for that lion.  We did not get what we paid for.  We were lied to, and are quite reasonably upset about it.

We were lied to and taken advantage of.  It's obvious as daylight that they half-assed the ending because they were short on time, not because it was 'artistic integrity'.  I am so sick of hearing this ****.  I have only played one 'artistic' game my entire life, and it sure as hell isn't Mass Effect 3 (Braid, if you're curious.).

Read the whole post before responding.

No thank you.  I responded to your first paragraph or so.  I'm aware you are somewhat sympathetic to us, and I'm not attacking you.  I'm saying that the 'artistic integrity' debate is wrong.  I'm tired of hearing it.  I put up with that **** for months and I'm done doing so.

[The Real Bowser]

Baelrahn wrote...

The Real Bowser wrote...

Do you really want to do this?  Do you really want to do this?

Bioware downright lied to us about the ending ("It won't be an ending like a, b, or c"... oh wait, it was), left us feeling empty, and topped it off by finishing the game with "Commander Shepard has become a legend by ending the Reaper threat.  Now you can continue to build that legend through further gameplay and downloadable content."

I'm sorry, but I will never, ever be okay with the ending unless it took drastic changes, the likes of which Bioware will never do.  The only thing this post is doing is stirring up these old feelings from a lot of unhappy players.  The best thing you can do is drop the subject and stop posting crap like this.  Because most players that were unhappy with this, will NEVER be okay with it, certainly not with some random dude telling us that we should be nice to the people that lied to us.  Hell no.

I am being nice normally, I'm over this.  I don't really play this game much anymore, but when I see crap like this it makes me want to start getting pissed off again.  So please, cut the bull **** thank you.

You're missing the point.
Please take the time to really read any of my posts in this very thread.

This is not about "The endings weren't bad, you don't understand them". This is not a discussion about the ending, it's execution or whether anyone is right with their opinion about it. This is merely about personal insults to developers, which IMO doesn't even have anything to do with a video game for that matter. It's just embarassing and uncalled for.

I can't put this anymore peacefully, but I'm simply not taking the "another thread" thing.
I'm not reopening an old wound, I only started this thread because it won't ever stop, and it get's annoying. More annoying than a lot of things I don't like about the game myself, by now.
It's in fact  the gazillions of non-productive ending-related and/or "BW is terrible for this reason" -threads, which downright ruin my experience in this forum. That's a solid complaint on my part. You have to manically look for an interesting topic/discussion, buried in variants of the latter mentioned threads about the same, well you said it best: bull ****.
So don't you give me that.

No, what was bull **** was your meaningless attempt to bring this crap back up and stir up old wounds.  You claim that you don't want to see these kinds of threads, yet here you are cluttering the forum with another meaningless post.  At least the "The Ending sucks" posts have a purpose, this one really doesn't.  No one is going to read this thread and go "Gee, this guy is right, I should just stop saying I don't like the ending and be nice forever after."  No, what you are doing is adding more fire and causing even more people to get annoyed.

Bioware doesn't need your backseat moderating post or whatever this is supposed to be.  Bioware can handle this themselves.  People who personally insult Bioware are banned.  People that do are taken care of appropriately and swiftly.  There are reasons we are upset at them and I will never be 'nice' to them about it, but I will control myself in such a way that I will not attack individuals as I agree, that is childish.

It doesn't change the fact that posts like this accomplish nothing.  You're not the first to do so, and you're probably not going to be the last.  We will never be nice about the ending unless it is changed, and that will never happen.  The best you can do is report people attacking Bioware and let this subject drop.

If it's any consolation, I do appreciate your attempt to be nice, however flawed it may be.  You're just going about it entirely wrong.  Just let this drop.  Please.  I'm tired of arguing about it, and I imagine you are as well.

Just accept it, people are always going to be upset about it and no matter how much you ask them not to, they will never change.  You can only make things worse, you can't make things better.  Only Bioware can make things better, and they've made very weak attempts to do so.

Modifié par The Real Bowser, 30 janvier 2013 - 10:11 .

[TheRealJayDee]

Grubas wrote...

Maybe we talk for a change about the reason that partly caused this ****storm, shouldnt we? Statements that were made, that shouldnt have been made, that were missleading and false or extremly ambitious, as we have found out afterward.

I strongly believe it would've been helpful if we could have talked with someone who actually had something substantial to say about these statements, or at least got to hear what they had to say about it. Same with many of the controversial aspects of the writing. But since this hasn't happened and likely isn't going to happen we are forced to continue to talk about it by ourselves. No closure. Life imitating art. Or is it the other way around?

What really irks me is that the official way of dealing with the unsettled issues is to say "as soon as the next game is announced people will finally stop bothering". I'm pretty sure I won't. Many will, though, so...

Modifié par TheRealJayDee, 30 janvier 2013 - 10:13 .

[Morty Smith]

Official DJ Harbinger wrote...

And Kroitz, grow a spine and stop cowering under every BioWare word.

But I´m a jelly-fish ... made up of ****s n giggles ...

[Ninja Stan]

Official DJ Harbinger wrote...

My "one liner" is all I needed to post, if BioWare doesn't respond to fans then they're gonna lose a lot of them, seriously.

With all of the "BioWare's gonna lose fans because of X" type predictions I've seen in the last 11 years, I'm surprised BioWare has any fans left! I mean, there have been more than a few "BioWare's going to go out of business" and "no one's going to buy the next game" type posts floating around since NWN! Seriously.

[Ninja Stan]

And can we please cut out the swearing in this discussion? Thank you.

[Morty Smith]

Ninja Stan wrote...

Official DJ Harbinger wrote...

My "one liner" is all I needed to post, if BioWare doesn't respond to fans then they're gonna lose a lot of them, seriously.

With all of the "BioWare's gonna lose fans because of X" type predictions I've seen in the last 11 years, I'm surprised BioWare has any fans left! I mean, there have been more than a few "BioWare's going to go out of business" and "no one's going to buy the next game" type posts floating around since NWN! Seriously.

But in all seriousness, was it ever up to this magnitute?