137 réponses à ce sujet

[TheRealJayDee]

ugurbu wrote...

Well said. You may not like the ending, you may not like the path ME took towards the end but it does not give you the right to insult, threaten or discredit Casey Hudson and/or any other lead producers.

You know, the thing is, I'm being taught that it doesn't really make much of a difference. Everyone who doesn't do what you are rightfully saying shouldn't be done from time to time gets to hear a little "some fans are, like nice and intelligent, and all", but the only people that truly get any kind of recognition are the ones misbehaving. Because they are always used to explain why it's *impossible* for any of the ME3 devs to even think about coming to the BSN.

[Grubas]

Just point out the time of the statements in question, the release date of the game, and the huge discrepancy, after said game has been released, between game and aforementioned statements.
Whether anybody feels to adress this issue(s) is up to them of course. No pressure.

[The Real Bowser]

Ninja Stan wrote...

FlamingBoy wrote...

more pure nonsense trying to pin this as some how "our" fault

I know, right? If someone isn't talking to you, it's got to be their fault they're not responding to all the yelling and accusations and name-calling. How dare they not reveal all the information you want them to, or explain things to you when you want them to? You're a paying customer with legitimate complaints, damn it! They have to talk to you!

You know what really pissed me off about the whole ordeal?  How volatile and brutal the community was to the people arguing politely that the ending wasn't acceptable.  That the hardcore fanboys were attacking us brutally.  They are the ones that pushed us into being rude and aggressive ourselves.

I am really holding back right now to respond to this politely.  It's obvious as daylight how onesided an argument with you would be anyways.  I probably shouldn't even be wasting my time posting this, should I?

Modifié par The Real Bowser, 31 janvier 2013 - 09:43 .

[The Real Bowser]

IReuven wrote...

ugurbu wrote...

Well said. You may not like the ending, you may not like the path ME took towards the end but it does not give you the right to insult, threaten or discredit Casey Hudson and/or any other lead producers.

As a person with a freedom of speach I can discredit CH all I want. Honestly, I do not have to - advertising campaing BS did it's work at being BS. And then came the Artistic Integrity. So discrediting him is a waste of time, he does a pretty good job at doing it himself.

These forums do not support free speach.  They are Bioware's private forums, and what they say goes.  If you say something they don't like, they can ban you and you will have no speach at all here.

I'm not saying this is a good thing, but I wanted to correct you.  Free speach does not apply to the internet.

[Ninja Stan]

Official DJ Harbinger wrote...

Well, yeah, you do. If that's the way you repay the fans who turned your company from some doctors trying to start a company into this, then you're stupider then I thought.

Insults are unbecoming of you, Official DJ Harbinger. We can disagree with each other without resorting to childish behaviour.

Fans are "repaid" by a company continuing to release new product. Customers buy products that are being offered. Customers get that product, the company gets money for that sale. There is nothing more that is "owed" to or by either party. Expecting something other than the product/service you pay for, and insulting a company when it doesn't give it to you, is a little unreasonable, wouldn't you say? The "I made you famous" or "I pay your salary" argument doesn't fly with anyone in game development, I'm afraid, since you don't actually pay their salaries or made them famous. Their employer pays their salaries, and primarily, it's their products that made them famous.

Yes, the loyal fans are pretty great, and they are what allow BioWare to contnue making great games.

It appears your only weapon is sarcasm.

Appearances can be deceiving. I also have good looks, boyish charm, keen with and intelligence, a wealth of experience, keen insight, a propensity for wordplay and the dramatic, and a solid command of the English language.

11 years ago... back when BioWare didn't give us mediocre games with awful endings.

No, but in 2002, BioWare gave Baldur's Gate fans a "dumbed down" game with "no complexity". In 2003, BioWare released a "console kiddy" "action RPG" that was even more "dumbed down," having "sold out" in terms of licensing and platform releases. In 2005, BioWare "betrayed its core audience" once again by releasing an original game on console only. In 2007, BioWare dared to release an "immature" "shooter" to its "loyal fans." And since then, it's just been one mistake after another.

BioWare changed the gameplay of their shooter to make it more "immature." Their "this is the new [bleep]" fantasy RPG was "too slow," and the "awesome button" of its sequel drove all the fans away. Or were they all driven away by the "dumbed down" game that wasn't a Baldur's Gate sequel, because I'm sure that was mentioned then also.

Complaints about BioWare games aren't new. It's impossible to avoid, unfortunately, since the BioWare fanbase has gotten so much bigger and is so diverse, composed as it is of both old fans and new fans, gamers of different gaming generations, and players from around the world who grew up playing in different ways. But it is not necessary to be abusive, so unflinchingly negative, or implacably angry in order to get your point across. As I said, we can disagree without being nasty about it.

P.S. I am not an employee of BioWare, and this is not a paid position. Be excellent to each other.

[Ninja Stan]

IReuven wrote...
 [ curse words are *stared* still I can get banned for them - You can't explain that! ]  

Just because the words are automaticall filtered, or just because you star them yourself, does not mean you didn't use the words. Note that this also happens on television, primarily reality programs. They warn the viewer of coarse language, yet the words are bleeped and the mouth blurred.

The same principle applies on the BSN. If the word that is blocked is obviously a prohibited word, you can be banned for it.

[Sil]

Sometimes, I wish Moderators would reply to folk who post nicely, rather than those who fight in arguments

[The Real Bowser]

Ninja Stan wrote...

IReuven wrote...
 [ curse words are *stared* still I can get banned for them - You can't explain that! ]  

Just because the words are automaticall filtered, or just because you star them yourself, does not mean you didn't use the words. Note that this also happens on television, primarily reality programs. They warn the viewer of coarse language, yet the words are bleeped and the mouth blurred.

The same principle applies on the BSN. If the word that is blocked is obviously a prohibited word, you can be banned for it.

How do you know if when someone says "I don't give a ****" that someone didn't say "I don't give a care".  Frankly, when I star my 'curse words' I am doing so to give the reader their own imagination to fill in the blank.  If I wanted to be elaborate, I'd remove some of the stars to make it obvious what I was saying.  And I have done that in the past, though not on these forums I don't think.

That's just me though, I can't speak for everyone.  Either way, I'd take being cussed at over being insulted more pointedly any day of the week.

That said, what are the 'prohibitted words' as you put it?  I noticed you said 'damn' so I am assuming that's not one of them.  What words specifically do we need to avoid?

[Abraham_uk]

Lots of positivity here!
With nice messages to the community.
This is not at all like the hundreds of other threads where people lose their temper with Bioware. 

I'm so glad I came.


Now as Mark Meer and Jennifer Hale keep saying

"I should go"



At Ninja Stan.
What do you think about this thread?

Modifié par Abraham_uk, 31 janvier 2013 - 10:09 .

[Ninja Stan]

The Real Bowser wrote...
How do you know if when someone says "I don't give a ****" that someone didn't say "I don't give a care".  Frankly, when I star my 'curse words' I am doing so to give the reader their own imagination to fill in the blank.  If I wanted to be elaborate, I'd remove some of the stars to make it obvious what I was saying.  And I have done that in the past, though not on these forums I don't think.

"Care" is not an objectionable word and isn't removed by the site's filter. Neither is "darn," "damn," or "flying fig." If the word is caught by the filter, it's an objectionable word. If the user has self-censored, then they are trying to bypass the filter.

[Ninja Stan]

Sil wrote...

Sometimes, I wish Moderators would reply to folk who post nicely, rather than those who fight in arguments

I've responded to quite a lot these last few months, but I find that I have to repeat myself a lot. I've also responded to some folks via PM, and some folks have addressed me via PM.

As a Moderator, my job is primarily to try and maintain order and enforce the rules on the BSN.  "Those who fight in arguments" are generally more in need of correction, and those "folk who post nicely" either aren't in need of correction or I don't have the means to address their concerns, mostly because I don't work at BioWare.

Was there something specific in this thread you were hoping a Moderator address?

[Haargel]

Ninja Stan wrote...

Official DJ Harbinger wrote...

Well, yeah, you do. If that's the way you repay the fans who turned your company from some doctors trying to start a company into this, then you're stupider then I thought.

Insults are unbecoming of you, Official DJ Harbinger. We can disagree with each other without resorting to childish behaviour.

Fans are "repaid" by a company continuing to release new product. Customers buy products that are being offered. Customers get that product, the company gets money for that sale. There is nothing more that is "owed" to or by either party. Expecting something other than the product/service you pay for, and insulting a company when it doesn't give it to you, is a little unreasonable, wouldn't you say? The "I made you famous" or "I pay your salary" argument doesn't fly with anyone in game development, I'm afraid, since you don't actually pay their salaries or made them famous. Their employer pays their salaries, and primarily, it's their products that made them famous.

Yes, the loyal fans are pretty great, and they are what allow BioWare to contnue making great games.

It appears your only weapon is sarcasm.

Appearances can be deceiving. I also have good looks, boyish charm, keen with and intelligence, a wealth of experience, keen insight, a propensity for wordplay and the dramatic, and a solid command of the English language.

11 years ago... back when BioWare didn't give us mediocre games with awful endings.

No, but in 2002, BioWare gave Baldur's Gate fans a "dumbed down" game with "no complexity". In 2003, BioWare released a "console kiddy" "action RPG" that was even more "dumbed down," having "sold out" in terms of licensing and platform releases. In 2005, BioWare "betrayed its core audience" once again by releasing an original game on console only. In 2007, BioWare dared to release an "immature" "shooter" to its "loyal fans." And since then, it's just been one mistake after another.

BioWare changed the gameplay of their shooter to make it more "immature." Their "this is the new [bleep]" fantasy RPG was "too slow," and the "awesome button" of its sequel drove all the fans away. Or were they all driven away by the "dumbed down" game that wasn't a Baldur's Gate sequel, because I'm sure that was mentioned then also.

Complaints about BioWare games aren't new. It's impossible to avoid, unfortunately, since the BioWare fanbase has gotten so much bigger and is so diverse, composed as it is of both old fans and new fans, gamers of different gaming generations, and players from around the world who grew up playing in different ways. But it is not necessary to be abusive, so unflinchingly negative, or implacably angry in order to get your point across. As I said, we can disagree without being nasty about it.

P.S. I am not an employee of BioWare, and this is not a paid position. Be excellent to each other.

Well said, Mr. Stan (?) 

Personally, I don't think that a "F U, chage the endings... fire someone doesn't work. I think that the BioWare team are watching these forums, but if I was one of them, looking at the forums and see anything like F U BW, change this or that, you deserve to lose your job or whatever... I'm pretty sure they won't bother to read any further.

However, if you state your grief an dissapointments in a mature, civil way it would be more likely they would listen.

And there's still this.

People disliked BG2 because it wasn't BG, People disliked NWN because it wasn't BG2, People disliked Mass Effect because it had FPS (sort of) . 

The cycle continues. People will always complain.

Just do so in a constructive and polite way. Not by raging and calling all sorts of names.

My 2 cents.

[Sil]

Ninja Stan wrote...

Sil wrote...

Sometimes, I wish Moderators would reply to folk who post nicely, rather than those who fight in arguments

I've responded to quite a lot these last few months, but I find that I have to repeat myself a lot. I've also responded to some folks via PM, and some folks have addressed me via PM.

As a Moderator, my job is primarily to try and maintain order and enforce the rules on the BSN.  "Those who fight in arguments" are generally more in need of correction, and those "folk who post nicely" either aren't in need of correction or I don't have the means to address their concerns, mostly because I don't work at BioWare.

Was there something specific in this thread you were hoping a Moderator address?

Well, I did write a post on the second page but it wasn't exactly an exciting one . It's more that Moderators are the closest we get to any substantial contact with folks in Bioware, and that there are many people out there who have been posting very civil comments and debates which could sometimes use the presence of a Bioware employee to help settle a discussion or answer a lore question/discussion. Of course I understand that you guys have a fight on your hands keeping the arguments quelled and tensions lowered, but I do wish we had a great presence from Bioware for discussions and debate, as there are many folks out there who would love a casual debate over lore.

[The Real Bowser]

Ninja Stan wrote...

The Real Bowser wrote...
How do you know if when someone says "I don't give a ****" that someone didn't say "I don't give a care".  Frankly, when I star my 'curse words' I am doing so to give the reader their own imagination to fill in the blank.  If I wanted to be elaborate, I'd remove some of the stars to make it obvious what I was saying.  And I have done that in the past, though not on these forums I don't think.

"Care" is not an objectionable word and isn't removed by the site's filter. Neither is "darn," "damn," or "flying fig." If the word is caught by the filter, it's an objectionable word. If the user has self-censored, then they are trying to bypass the filter.

It's unsurprising how one-sided your argument is, but in this case I'll accept it since you are, after all, a moderator, and you shouldn't put up with crap.  That doesn't mean that I agree with your opinion, but I'll respect it in this case. 

It doesn't mean I agree with your earlier attitudes in this thread, either.  Or respect them, at all.  Really, if it gets to the point where you have to act sarcastic in a thread, it's probably time to just lock the thread and move on.

I'm assuming the reason you haven't is because you think this thread is helpful or positive.  It's not.  It's just bringing up old wounds and making things worse.  A goody-goody telling the community to play nice like anyone is going to come in here, read the thread, and have an epiphany, is ridiculous.  Again, all it does it make things worse.  Though, that's your call to make.  You are, after all, the moderator.

That said, I'd be interested in knowing specifically what words need to be avoided.  Jack's favorite four letter word is kind of obvious, but what else?  I want to know for my own benefit, and I imagine making a thread full of cuss words to test it wouldn't be a good way to find out.

Modifié par The Real Bowser, 31 janvier 2013 - 10:22 .

[Iakus]

Ninja Stan wrote...

No, but in 2002, BioWare gave Baldur's Gate fans a "dumbed down" game with "no complexity". In 2003, BioWare released a "console kiddy" "action RPG" that was even more "dumbed down," having "sold out" in terms of licensing and platform releases. In 2005, BioWare "betrayed its core audience" once again by releasing an original game on console only. In 2007, BioWare dared to release an "immature" "shooter" to its "loyal fans." And since then, it's just been one mistake after another.

BioWare changed the gameplay of their shooter to make it more "immature." Their "this is the new [bleep]" fantasy RPG was "too slow," and the "awesome button" of its sequel drove all the fans away. Or were they all driven away by the "dumbed down" game that wasn't a Baldur's Gate sequel, because I'm sure that was mentioned then also.

Complaints about BioWare games aren't new. It's impossible to avoid, unfortunately, since the BioWare fanbase has gotten so much bigger and is so diverse, composed as it is of both old fans and new fans, gamers of different gaming generations, and players from around the world who grew up playing in different ways. But it is not necessary to be abusive, so unflinchingly negative, or implacably angry in order to get your point across. As I said, we can disagree without being nasty about it.

P.S. I am not an employee of BioWare, and this is not a paid position. Be excellent to each other.

Complaints aren't new.  But the magnitude of this particular complaint is.  In addition, this is more than a single standalone game like Jade Empire (which, btw eventually did come to the PC), this is a trilogy with hopes of becoming an ongoing franchise.

It is curious, though, as Bioware is trying to expand and diversify its audience, Mass Effect 3 became so narrow in the audience it chose to cater to.

[Ninja Stan]

Sil wrote...

Well, I did write a post on the second page but it wasn't exactly an exciting one . It's more that Moderators are the closest we get to any substantial contact with folks in Bioware, and that there are many people out there who have been posting very civil comments and debates which could sometimes use the presence of a Bioware employee to help settle a discussion or answer a lore question/discussion. Of course I understand that you guys have a fight on your hands keeping the arguments quelled and tensions lowered, but I do wish we had a great presence from Bioware for discussions and debate, as there are many folks out there who would love a casual debate over lore.

Unfortunately, Moderators don't actually work at BioWare and have no special access to developers. Moderating is a volunteer position, and I am the only one that I can think of who was a BioWare employee.

[N7-RedFox]

tl;dr

moving on...

[Sil]

Ninja Stan wrote...

Sil wrote...

Well, I did write a post on the second page but it wasn't exactly an exciting one . It's more that Moderators are the closest we get to any substantial contact with folks in Bioware, and that there are many people out there who have been posting very civil comments and debates which could sometimes use the presence of a Bioware employee to help settle a discussion or answer a lore question/discussion. Of course I understand that you guys have a fight on your hands keeping the arguments quelled and tensions lowered, but I do wish we had a great presence from Bioware for discussions and debate, as there are many folks out there who would love a casual debate over lore.

Unfortunately, Moderators don't actually work at BioWare and have no special access to developers. Moderating is a volunteer position, and I am the only one that I can think of who was a BioWare employee.

That's true enough, Thank you for answering me Ninja Stan, it's always nice to chat to Bioware folk, even if they don't actually work there or have special access.

[TheRealJayDee]

Ninja Stan wrote...

Unfortunately, Moderators don't actually work at BioWare and have no special access to developers. Moderating is a volunteer position, and I am the only one that I can think of who was a BioWare employee.

Well, there is Chris Priestly...

[Ninja Stan]

TheRealJayDee wrote...

Ninja Stan wrote...

Unfortunately, Moderators don't actually work at BioWare and have no special access to developers. Moderating is a volunteer position, and I am the only one that I can think of who was a BioWare employee.

Well, there is Chris Priestly...

Chris Priestly is the Community Coordinator and is currently a BioWare employee. I count him as an Admin, not as a Community Moderator (Sorry, I should have clarified).