46 réponses à ce sujet

[zenrockoutkast]

 So maybe I won't get much of a response on a board this old, but I've been going back to DAO a lot lately and I was wondering this.  We know the blight was an unusual threat even for a blight (think Flemeth's warning), we know the Darkspawn were being tricky (Architect was active when it started, very well could be that the Darkspawn had some solid strategy beyond what's normal for a blight), What if the Darkspawn were holding back at Ostagar?  Let's say Loghain doesn't betray Cailan, his army is waiting to flank, but the Darkspawn still attack the Tower of Ishal and the signal is still delayed.  Loghain charges, they defeat the Darkspawn, but the part of the army that engaged the Darkspawn at first takes heavy losses, and no archdemon, what then?

Could it be that the Archdemon was waiting, preparing a counterattack for after the main army dispersed and went back to their respective posts?  Mages go back to mage business, Redcliffe soldiers back to Redcliffe business, Highever forces back to Highever, etc.  Then the Archdemon brings a larger horde forward, marches straight to Denerim when they least expect it, and kills the king and all his generals right there.  The royal army has fallen, the bannorn's army isn't united as a single force in one place, and the elves and dwarves aren't compelled to help because of the main character's interference in their affairs.  Granted, the trouble at the Circle, Redcliffe, and Highever don't occur because Loghain didn't interfere (though Connor might still become posessed), but it's still conceivable that the horde might overrun the bannorn before they can rally together as a single force again.  Perhaps by killing the main force at Ostagar Loghain inadvertently saved the country by ensuring that the alliance that the main character recruits assaults the Archdemon when it finally appears instead of simply a weakened royal army that just limped back to Denerim after a hard battle.  Thoughts?

[Lemur194]

 An interesting way to look at it....

Even though the archdemon could be smart enough for something like that, one problem is (if I remember right) it's strongly implied atleast once and one more time again during the Ostagar return dlc that if Loghain actually did charge at the signal then the entire fighting force would've been wiped out anyway because the horde was just too many. Even Duncan said something before the battle about how even though they've won every battle so far the horde keeps growing and by now will outnumber them.  

I guess my point is I disagree with you about the thought of the royal army limping back to Denerim, cause there likely wouldn't be an army left to limp back anywhere if Loghain didn't retreat. 

As for the act of Loghain retreating itself, I think it did more harm than good. Although he preserved part of a fighting force that was likely doomed to be wiped out if they stayed, he made some big mistakes along the way that almost doomed Ferelden. The first was declaring himself regent while the queen was still alive (I know its impossible to know for sure but I have a feeling if he didn't make that declaration it might've kept some more of the nobles in line and less civil war).  His other mistake was poisoning Eamon when it would've probably been better to try reasoning with him first. He obviously would've been upset about Cailan but Eamon isn't unreasonable and knows Loghain is a good general (and to his knowledge before getting poisoned) a good person. And of course the single biggest mistake I thought was his prejudice clouding his better judgement when he had the Grey Warden and Orlesian legions turn back at the border and then outlawing the wardens outright. Which would then likely lead him to discovering too late that the archdemon can't be killed and that the Grey Wardens are actually are needed.

If he hadn't done those other things I think him leaving Ostagar would've been a bit easier to justify and he would be seen as more so a savior. And if he died at Ostagar his reputation still would've been intact and although things would've still been difficult for the main character, Loghain being alive made things undoubtedly harder for him/her  which in turn led to the blight costing a lot more lives than would've been necessary. 

Modifié par Lemur194, 01 février 2013 - 07:13 .

[thats1evildude]

I'll give him this: had Loghain not retreated, the casaulties at Ostagar would have been far greater. I'll readily concede the point that Cailan didn't truly grasp the danger the darkspawn posed and Ostagar would have been a disaster if Loghain had stuck to this flawed war plan.

Of course, had he not been so totally paranoid about the Orlesians, then Cailan would have backed off and the betrayal would never have been necessary.

And as Lemur said, he f***ed up on so many fronts after Ostagar that he very nearly doomed Ferelden on his own. Poisoning Eamon, starting a civil war, teaming up with that snake Uldred, imprisoning and torturing Riordan, attempting to kill the only remaining Grey Wardens … all these things just made the situation worse. He erased any good he may have inadvertently caused by retreating from Ostagar.

Really, the darkspawn couldn't have asked for a better ally.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 01 février 2013 - 07:24 .

[jpbreon]

I've said this on other threads: Loghain is the best written and sympathetic character in the game. If you've never recruited and taken Loghain to Ostagar, you really need to.

What we have to remember is Loghain's paranoia concerning Orlais (not unfounded, by the way), which in all likelihood is seeking a way to expand its dominion again to Fereldan. This is expressed by the correspondence between Cailan and Empress Celene - should they have married and Cailan died, the Fereldan throne goes to the Empress. Bloodless coup if there ever was one. Now, we can argue that Cailan and/or Celene's motivations were just, but from a practical standpoint Cailan is not experienced enough to carefully weigh his options. Considering Cailan's blunder at Ostagar (as thats1evildude points out) we can't be certain Cailan wasn't being played by the woman at the top of the Grand Game.

Loghain really was doing what he thought was best for Fereldan, but like Cailan, did not understand the scope and properties of the Darkspawn. I couldn't fault him that because there were no Grey Wardens in Fereldan before Maric left them back in (less so now that it is apparent Loghain knew Genevieve, Fiona, and Bregan - or at least should have understood why Wardens are needed). He certainly understood how glory hounds and youthful exuberance can jeopardize the goal, which is why he eventually yielded to the Warden.

[zenrockoutkast]

It is quite true that he made some pretty big mistakes aside from Ostagar. TED mentioned Uldred, and he also allowed Howe to murder the Couslands and purge the alienage, not to mention dealing with the Tevinter slavers (damn Cailan for talking with the Orlesians, now as my first act let's go deal with Tevinters!) Perhaps the army would have died out, but my question is still would Fereldan have been able to recover? It may be likely that only Redcliffe soldiers and magi would be there to battle the Archdemon at Denerim had that happened. I guess I'm saying that Loghain's betrayal may have been good in that it caused the main quest, which united the elves and dwarves behind the Grey Wardens. I guess we could also cook up possibilities where that happens anyways, though, such as Flemeth still saving Alistair and the Warden but no one else or some of the other Wardens surviving and being able to resolve the disputes in those quests.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Also, don't forget that the majority of the soldiers you see in the cutscenes during the final battle were human. And some of them were probably paid and armed by Caladrius. That's the really creepy part, that you might have won because of the Tevinters.

[humes spork]

It was made clear in the context of the game the battle at Ostagar was doomed to failure, with or without Loghain's intervention. Cailan's battle plan was horrid, his forces hopelessly outnumbered, Ostagar as a defensive position compromised, and above all else the Archdemon had yet to make its presence known or felt on the field. Moreover, had the Archdemon appeared, it was unlikely Duncan and the other Wardens would be able to kill it being unable to match it in the skies or bring it to ground for the kill.

It's made clear in the context of the game that unless -- and until -- the Archdemon is slain, the Blight does not end. The darkspawn can quickly and easily replace lost numbers, and that capacity only grows as new broodmothers are created, and the Archdemon is the focal point for the darkspawn horde. Which raises the question why an Archdemon would ever take the field (a stupid move for something of deific power and intellect), but that's tangential. Even total victory at Ostagar -- had it been possible -- would have been nothing but a temporary reprieve.

Meanwhile, had Loghain committed his forces to a lost cause at Ostagar, what would have happened? He and his forces would have been lost. Ferelden would have lost its most experienced wartime leader, and even more troops with which to resist the darkspawn. Would Anora -- a woman of common birth, without an heir, whose only claim to the throne was through marriage -- been able to rally the bannorn? unlikely. Without an heir-apparent, a civil war of succession was still the most likely outcome.

Regardless of his ancillary actions of dubious ethical or strategic merit, Loghain made the right call at Ostagar.

[TEWR]

humes spork wrote...

Which raises the question why an Archdemon would ever take the field (a stupid move for something of deific power and intellect), but that's tangential.

Bear in mind that it's tainted, which induces madness in everyone. Even the Old Gods.

humes spork wrote...

ould Anora -- a woman of common birth, without an heir, whose only claim to the throne was through marriage -- been able to rally the bannorn? unlikely.

She's been proven to have been the brains behind the throne for years before the game, and she's a lot better at politics then her father. So I wouldn't say it's unlikely. I'd say it's likely that she could get them to recognize her as Ferelden's monarch during that first Landsmeet we see in the Loghain cutscene.

Now, if Howe was still in the picture then you've still got a succession crisis/civil war that's imminent, because Howe and his cronies would've definitely wanted to grab more power. Howe's never satisfied. But I'm sure Anora would've seen him for the bastard that he is and used his huge ego to her advantage in trying to remove him.

thats1evildude wrote...

Poisoning Eamon,

In-game evidence points to this having happened after Ostagar, not before.

thats1evildude wrote...

starting a civil war

He never started it. He antagonized the Bannorn, sure. He made demands that reminded the Bannorn of what Orlais did -- though Loghain has at least a good reason for those demands and it isn't for power.

But he never started it. The Bannorn geared up for battle as did Loghain's allies. Who struck the first blow is murky, but I don't see any reason to believe Loghain struck the first blow.

thats1evildude wrote...

, teaming up with that snake Uldred,

Uldred was a vocal Libertarian who had a lot of influence with the Circle. Uldred and Loghain were not two people that knew each other closely, so why Loghain should be condemned for going to Uldred for assistance and promising the Circle to have more freedoms -- or autonomy, I can't recall -- I don't get.

Yes, Uldred's a snake. But to expect Loghain to know the ins and outs of a person's character when he's never really met the person is a bit much.

Especially when Loghain is trying to get the Circle's support and the promise he made -- which I'd argue is probably the only one that could get the Circle on his side, barring a treaty -- is really going to be taken to heart by a person that belongs to the fraternity that seeks that same promise.

thats1evildude wrote...

imprisoning and torturing Riordan

Howe did that. Riordan tells you that Howe was responsible for his capture, imprisonment, and torture.

I'm not certain Loghain knew about it, as we have Word of God saying Howe did a great many things without Loghain's knowledge or approval.

thats1evildude wrote...

, attempting to kill the only remaining Grey Wardens … all these things just made the situation worse.

If one were to study Thedosian history and recent events in the Dragon Age, they'd understand why Loghain felt that he couldn't trust the Grey Wardens and viewed them as Orlesian agents -- which I'd argue made him feel a bit more pain for how the last known Theirin child was, in his mind, lost to Orlais.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 02 février 2013 - 07:10 .

[zenrockoutkast]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

In-game evidence points to this having happened after Ostagar, not before.

He never started it. He antagonized the Bannorn, sure. He made demands that reminded the Bannorn of what Orlais did -- though Loghain has at least a good reason for those demands and it isn't for power.

Yes, Uldred's a snake. But to expect Loghain to know the ins and outs of a person's character when he's never really met the person is a bit much.

Howe did that. Riordan tells you that Howe was responsible for his capture, imprisonment, and torture.

I'm not certain Loghain knew about it, as we have Word of God saying Howe did a great many things without Loghain's knowledge or approval.

If one were to study Thedosian history and recent events in the Dragon Age, they'd understand why Loghain felt that he couldn't trust the Grey Wardens and viewed them as Orlesian agents -- which I'd argue made him feel a bit more pain for how the last known Theirin child was, in his mind, lost to Orlais.

I'm not completely sure on this, but I know that Bann Teagan had to represent Redcliffe at Denerim directly after Ostagar, so Eamon couldn't be there, and there were already Redcliffe knights searching for the Urn at Lothering fairly soon after as well.  This means that in the time it took the Wardens to recover and travel to Lothering if Eamon got sick after Ostagar then he would have had to have fallen ill, Isolde sent the knights out very soon after, representatives from the bannorn were called to Denerim to discuss the loss and Loghain had already marched his army back, all the while plotting to poison Eamon on the way back.  Unless there's some information I'm missing it seems likely that he plotted this beforehand.  He certainly acted pre-emptively in allowing Howe to attack Highever, don't see any reason to think that his other actions weren't planned out as well.

No, I mean he only committed regicide.  Justified or not, if that fact really came out there wouldn't be a civil war, he'd be dead.  Taking a power grab, especially when not only are you not from the Therin line but not a noble at all, is not a good way to make friends.  Just because he didn't fire the first shot doesn't mean that his actions weren't inciting a civil war.

This I'm less clear on, but I thought the dialogue hinted that Loghain knew Uldred was going to use blood magic.  At any rate, he should've at least know this would cause a rift within the circle.  If anything perhaps this is a prime example of why Chantry oversight without royal interference is necessary.

In my mind, whatever Howe did Loghain is also responsible for.  He knew what the man was capable of, he knew his character, he used him to advance his own agenda and therefore enabled him.  Besides, he could've marched Howe out in front of all of Denerim and exposed him for any number of things at any time, he didn't.  In Loghain's mind the ends justified the means, which means you can't discount certain actions he undertook in pursuit of his goals just because he didn't undertake them directly.

No one knew why the Wardens were banished before Soldier's Peak was retaken, and then only the Wardens.  All Loghain knew was that they were banished for troublemaking years back, and that Maric brought their order back.

In my mind, you can't discount personal advancement in Loghain's motives.  They may not have been his prime motives, but I think they were at least ancillary.  Why not at least make Eamon or another bann regent until succession can be addressed?  Why not back Alistair?  Why not marry Alistair and Anora?  Part of that is his affilitation with the Wardens, but therein lies another problem with Loghain, his paranoia.  He accuses the Grey Wardens of wanting the throne, even though he's the one who's taking all the power for himself.  He thinks that allying with Orlais against a blight is going to lead to Fereldan being conquered.  Keep in mind that he is part of the reason why they fight at Ostagar in the first place, as when Cailan suggests they wait for reinforcements he goes off about an Orlesian plot.  In his mind he is surrounded by enemies and he is the only person he can really trust.  I think is what causes him to grab power for himself, and once he gets a taste he likes it and justifies it with those same reasons.  I don't think he realizes this, I think that in his mind he's completely altruistic, but I still think it's a part of his personality.  I think it's evidenced by the fact that, even after he has the throne, he'll do things such as dealing with Tevinters to secure his power.  Please tell me how that twisted logic works out, "I need to take the throne to prevent another country that is our ally (though it's an admittedly weak alliance) from taking us over, so instead I'll make an alliance with our enemy that not only has a different state religion as us (while Orlais has the same religion), not only deals in the human slave trade (which I'm advancing with my alliance), but overtly is run by power-hungry magi who have shown no qualms about planting agents to try to advance their own power in other countries."  Makes total sense.

[zenrockoutkast]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Also, don't forget that the majority of the soldiers you see in the cutscenes during the final battle were human. And some of them were probably paid and armed by Caladrius. That's the really creepy part, that you might have won because of the Tevinters.

You know, one good thing about a blight is how it brings people together.

Seriously, though, it's not unusual for Tevinters to help out in a blight.  The only people to ever sit out a blight for political reasons are the elves.

[dainbramage]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Also, don't forget that the majority of the soldiers you see in the cutscenes during the final battle were human. And some of them were probably paid and armed by Caladrius. That's the really creepy part, that you might have won because of the Tevinters.

It's implied that these are the Redcliffe/bannorn soldiers, not Loghain's. The slave money more likely went to funding the civil war.


And everyone wouldn't have gone home if they won at Ostagar. The wardens still knew that the archdemon was awake, so a more likely scenario would have been getting reinforcements from Orlais and Redcliffe and then wiping the floor with the blight. Riordan says there are 24 divisions of cavalry waiting at the border, which would be something like 500,000 men. Plus 200 wardens. A force much much smaller than that was victorious at Denerim.

[TEWR]

I'm not completely sure on this, but I know that Bann Teagan had to represent Redcliffe at Denerim directly after Ostagar, so Eamon couldn't be there, and there were already Redcliffe knights searching for the Urn at Lothering fairly soon after as well.

You have to factor in how long the Warden was unconscious -- I believe Morrigan says a day or two -- and how long it takes the Warden to travel to Lothering -- which might even be a few days more.

Eamon was apparently well enough to inform Cailan that he could be at Ostagar in a week's time, Jowan says he met Loghain in Denerim, you find out that Loghain, Cailan, and the King's Army have been at Ostagar the entire time, and logistically there's no way in hell that Loghain could go back to Denerim from Ostagar and then head back to the fortress, all while setting all of this up.

Especially since Duncan says, in multiple origins, that he and the Warden are to leave for Ostagar immediately.

He never makes any implications at there being another stop along the way -- as DG attempted to say Duncan went to recruit other Wardens, which in and of itself doesn't fly at all when you look at the Dwarven origins and the Magi origin -- but there is a common area that all the origins will eventually meet around, which is Redcliffe.

So how could Jowan be caught by Irminric, taken by Loghain's men, brought to Denerim, and meet Loghain in Denerim who was already at Ostagar by the time of Jowan's escape?

He certainly acted pre-emptively in allowing Howe to attack Highever, don't see any reason to think that his other actions weren't planned out as well.

Word of God said that Loghain had nothing to do with Howe's betrayal and murder of the Couslands.

No, I mean he only committed regicide

Actually, I had quoted thats1evildude -- refrained from adding in the name though -- but I'll address you as well.

I mean he only committed regicide. Justified or not, if that fact really came out there wouldn't be a civil war, he'd be dead. Taking a power grab, especially when not only are you not from the Therin line but not a noble at all, is not a good way to make friends. Just because he didn't fire the first shot doesn't mean that his actions weren't inciting a civil war.

Is it regicide, however, if your King died in battle from his own foolishness? Given how Cailan perishes almost immediately after Loghain issued the retreat -- factoring in how Cailan doomed Loghain's strategy and the tower delay -- I'd say that he died in the line of duty as opposed to being killed by Loghain.

Loghain tries to tell the Bannorn the truth about how Cailan fought on the front lines, with no heir, against the advice of many people telling him not to. The Bannorn doesn't believe him.

And what defines a noble? Loghain was made a high noble by Maric. Would that not make him a noble, despite his common birth?

This I'm less clear on, but I thought the dialogue hinted that Loghain knew Uldred was going to use blood magic

He had no idea who Uldred was, nor what he would attempt to do to get the Circle on his side. He sarcastically comments to Wynne that he definitely wanted Uldred to destroy Ferelden's best weapon against the Blight.

Who Uldred was in reality was not known to Loghain.

Besides, he could've marched Howe out in front of all of Denerim and exposed him for any number of things at any time, he didn't.

That's not going to work, as Howe has his own allies and controls the greater part of the Coastlands by Ostagar's end. The nation would become even more divided, as those allies would fight against Loghain and the other Banns to free the man that's helping them ascend higher.

I'll address everything else in a little bit. Gotta deal with the dog now.

[TEWR]

zenrockoutkast wrote...

No one knew why the Wardens were banished before Soldier's Peak was retaken, and then only the Wardens.  All Loghain knew was that they were banished for troublemaking years back, and that Maric brought their order back.

Incorrect. If one reviews Thedosian history -- something Loghain is made clear to have done, evidenced by his knowledge that Orlais would take advantage of a weakened Ferelden -- one finds out that Orlais and the Wardens would fight the Blight in other nations and Orlais would take advantage of the weakened state of said nations to expand their empire.

The Wardens would actively spread the faith of the Chantry to the land, which Drakon noted that he wanted Orlais' empire and the Chantry's faith to engulf the land as one.

Then you have the Treatise of Neutrality the Wardens signed off into during the Third Blight so they could better broker allies to fight the Blights during those times.

In this sense, the Wardens were working for Orlais and the Chantry historically. When one factors in what the common people knew of Sophia Dryden's (justified) rebellion and the events of The Calling, then Loghain's suspicion is even more understandable -- but no less wrong for current events. Accurate historically, wrong currently.

As far as the common people knew, Sophia Dryden was rebelling against King Arland to put herself on the throne. As you find out, many of the records of Arland's reign were destroyed during and after the war, so not many people could say what he was like. You only find out a few things about him, all of them pointing to him being a bit of a Caligula.

In my mind, you can't discount personal advancement in Loghain's motives.  They may not have been his prime motives, but I think they were at least ancillary.

Perhaps.

Why not at least make Eamon or another bann regent until succession can be addressed?

He can't really trust Eamon because he believes Eamon's familial relation to Cailan would cloud his judgment and make him think Loghain deliberately killed Cailan -- which is true, as that's precisely what Eamon does and Teagan does as well.

And to give that much power to a bann would be utterly disastrous. If Teyrn Cousland was alive, perhaps they could serve as Regent to Queen Anora. But Howe saw fit to kill the Couslands.

My rationale for why Loghain named himself Regent was that he thought Anora would be too conflicted and distraught over Cailan's fate to rule appropriately, seeing as he still views her as his little girl. And I also suspect Howe played a part in those beliefs becoming stronger.

Take for instance Anora's questioning of Cailan's fate. I imagine that Howe, being the manipulative jackass he is, to have gone "See, my lord? She is not fit to rule. She's too pained by Cailan's death." and Loghain's just in a Theoden-like state.

Why not back Alistair?

Because he believed the Wardens and Orlais had taken Maric's bastard, played a part in Cailan's doom of himself*, and were planning to put Alistair on the throne as a puppet king by using the Theirin bloodline to appease the people while also serving their own ends. Alistair was not raised at court and was raised by a man that married an Orlesian woman, for a time. 

Then later on, he was shipped off to the Chantry, who operate out of Orlais and whose support of Meghren the Usurper really pissed off Loghain, to the point that he was about ready to kick them the hell out of Ferelden.

*In addition to Thedosian history, what the Wardens did and did not do at Ostagar helped those beliefs grow in Loghain's mind.

Why not marry Alistair and Anora?

See above. As capable as Anora is, perhaps Loghain thought she couldn't take on two entire nations: the Fereldans who would see only a Theirin on the throne and the Orlesians whom he thought were controlling Alistair.

He thinks that allying with Orlais against a blight is going to lead to Fereldan being conquered.

Bear in mind he and Cailan were told that four legions of Chevaliers, accompanied by the Wardens, were on their way to Ferelden's aid. But Riordan, one of those Wardens, said that two dozen divisions were on their way accompanied by the Wardens.

Meaning they lied. Meaning they've got plans in store for Ferelden.

Keep in mind that he is part of the reason why they fight at Ostagar in the first place, as when Cailan suggests they wait for reinforcements he goes off about an Orlesian plot.

Well, you're misremembering the actual dialogue first off.

Cailan was a fool. He repeatedly refuses Eamon's aid, when Eamon can be there in less then a week's time. But he brought up the Orlesians saying they should wait for them if they weren't going to fight which is an absurd notion.

I'm supposed to believe he'll wait for the help of a nation whose only means of accessing Ferelden is either by ship or through navigating a narrow mountain pass in the Frostbacks? That's going to take weeks at least and months at most for them to maneuver through.

He only brought it up, I'm led to believe, to force Loghain to capitulate to his (Cailan's) desire for a "glorious battle".

I think it's evidenced by the fact that, even after he has the throne, he'll do things such as dealing with Tevinters to secure his power.

The Civil War, which he never wanted and possibly didn't even start, was draining the nation's coffers. They had only just recently managed to get themselves out of near-bankruptcy after Maric's dissapearance. He approached Uldred for the Circle's assistance, which if he got would've meant that he could've used the Lucrosians and the Formari to raise funds for the war effort.

But then Wynne opened her fat yap on matters she's ignorant of. She is not a student of warfare. Her views, while understandable, are ultimately wrong because they're operating off of a heavily romanticized outlook on the battle where attempting to save the king is the right call -- as opposed to saving thousands of men from a doomed battle to fight another day.

I'm also led to believe, given Howe's utter contempt and racism towards the Elves, that he was the one who approached Loghain with the idea and that Loghain signed off on it only because of how much Howe was manipulating him. Howe was in control of Denerim as well as Highever and Amaranthine, after all. 

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 03 février 2013 - 03:55 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

dainbramage wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Also, don't forget that the majority of the soldiers you see in the cutscenes during the final battle were human. And some of them were probably paid and armed by Caladrius. That's the really creepy part, that you might have won because of the Tevinters.

It's implied that these are the Redcliffe/bannorn soldiers, not Loghain's. The slave money more likely went to funding the civil war.

Some of them are from Redcliffe, yeah. But how many? There seemed to be a pretty large group there. Not to mention I'm pretty sure I recall one of them shouting something like "In Loghain's name!" or something similar at the Gate Battle.

And as for the money from the slavery being used up, unless either the weapons and food Loghain bought for the Civil War were all eaten and destroyed during the Civil War, or the Warden's allies destroyed them due to a pragmatism failure, there'd still be some resources from the slavery still in use. And for that matter, there might well have been some cold hard cash left.

And everyone wouldn't have gone home if they won at Ostagar. The wardens still knew that the archdemon was awake, so a more likely scenario would have been getting reinforcements from Orlais and Redcliffe and then wiping the floor with the blight. Riordan says there are 24 divisions of cavalry waiting at the border, which would be something like 500,000 men. Plus 200 wardens. A force much much smaller than that was victorious at Denerim.

I don't think going home was an option, but wiping the floor with the Blight?

The Wardens won because the archdemon showed itself at the head of the horde. Probably because it knew there was a paucity of Wardens. And I don't think any cavalry are pictured in the Denerim Battle. How much good would a horse be against darkspawn anyway? Horses spook, and darkspawn... are spooky.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 02 février 2013 - 10:19 .

[Jedimaster88]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

He can't really trust Eamon because he believes Eamon's familial relation to Cailan would cloud his judgment and make him think Loghain deliberately killed Cailan -- which is true, as that's precisely what Eamon does and Teagan does as well.

Eamon to Alistair: "Without you Loghain would win. I would have to support him for Ferelden´s sake. Is that what you want?"  (Dont remember if it was 100% like this but at least something like this)

This gives me the idea that Eamon is not unreasonable. I believe that during the blight he would support Loghain because of Ferelden. What happens after the blight... well that I cant say.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...


Bear in mind he and Cailan were told that four legions of Chevaliers, accompanied by the Wardens, were on their way to Ferelden's aid. But Riordan, one of those Wardens, said that two dozen divisions were on their way accompanied by the Wardens.

Meaning they lied. Meaning they've got plans in store for Ferelden.

Im a bit curious. Ferelden is weakened after the blight. Its army is not as strong as it was before and the allies the warden gathered have propably left, because they agreed to fight the blight, not other battles. Oh and of course there are still darkspawn running around.

If Orlais truly intended to take Ferelden, why not attack after the blight? They could very well make up some excuse for coming or they could just coldly come anyway with brute force.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

The Civil War, which he never wanted and possibly didn't even start, was draining the nation's coffers. They had only just recently managed to get themselves out of near-bankruptcy after Maric's dissapearance. He approached Uldred for the Circle's assistance, which if he got would've meant that he could've used the Lucrosians and the Formari to raise funds for the war effort.

I know its not said anywhere who struck first and my believe could very well be wrong but I wouldnt be that supprised if Loghain did strike first. Especially with all that "the nobility must be brought to line" kind of attitude. I can imagine him striking first as to make an examble of what would happen if they continue.

[Ferretinabun]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I'm not completely sure on this, but I know that Bann Teagan had to represent Redcliffe at Denerim directly after Ostagar, so Eamon couldn't be there, and there were already Redcliffe knights searching for the Urn at Lothering fairly soon after as well.

You have to factor in how long the Warden was unconscious -- I believe Morrigan says a day or two -- and how long it takes the Warden to travel to Lothering -- which might even be a few days more.

Eamon was apparently well enough to inform Cailan that he could be at Ostagar in a week's time, Jowan says he met Loghain in Denerim, you find out that Loghain, Cailan, and the King's Army have been at Ostagar the entire time, and logistically there's no way in hell that Loghain could go back to Denerim from Ostagar and then head back to the fortress, all while setting all of this up.

I believe this is a rather fruitless line of reasoning, as I cannot get the timeline to make sense here at all.

Eamon was poisoned by Jowan on Loghain's orders, which means Eamon was not poisoned prior to the game starting (since Jowan only leaves the circle during the Mage's origin story). And the fact that Loghain confronted Jowan in Denerim also points to that meeting happening after Ostagar.

Which means that in the time it takes for the warden to recover from Ostagar and travel to Lothering, Loghain has apparently returned to Denerim and hired Jowan, who has then gone to Redcliffe and poisoned Eamon, causing the arlessa to send knights out on a quest for the Urn, who in turn have searched long enough to decide their quest is hopeless and already be returning to Redcliffe.

Even if Loghain did hire Jowan before he left for Ostagar, there is still no way all this would fit together.

Basically the writers screwed up the timeline here. There's no sense to be had from it either way.

[Addai]

To quickly recap discussions I've had at length elsewhere- The timeline does work, but you need to think of Duncan and the Warden not going directly to Ostagar. They made several stops beforehand and one of them may have been Redcliffe. Also Loghain did not travel to Ostagar with Cailan, he came later. It does all work. As for after Ostagar, once again there is time lapse that you don't see- the Warden and Alistair are in the Wilds for some time, probably weeks.

[TEWR]

Which means that in the time it takes for the warden to recover from Ostagar and travel to Lothering, Loghain has apparently returned to Denerim and hired Jowan, who has then gone to Redcliffe and poisoned Eamon, causing the arlessa to send knights out on a quest for the Urn, who in turn have searched long enough to decide their quest is hopeless and already be returning to Redcliffe.

I'm not disagreeing that the timeline is extremely wonky. In fact, when you go to Lothering -- or even on an outstretch of farmland not too far away from Ostagar where you meet Dog -- you see a cutscene that shows Loghain already in Denerim.

Addai67 wrote...

They made several stops beforehand and one of them may have been Redcliffe. Also Loghain did not travel to Ostagar with Cailan, he came later

But you find out that Loghain and his men have been at Ostagar the entire time.

Addai67 wrote...

They made several stops beforehand and one of them may have been Redcliffe.

I can't really buy into that line of reasoning. I'll accept Duncan going to Redcliffe before or after a particular origin story since all roads essentially lead there when going to Ostagar, but for him to have gone to other origin story locales and having missed the other Wardens kinda... boggles my mind.

Specifically, how he would miss recruiting a Dwarf Noble when you're playing a Dwarf Commoner, as he's supposed to stay for the feast in celebration of the DN's ascent to commander and go on an important expedition. So he would've met the DN. Then the DN would've been exiled the day after the DC is recruited, so how is it that Duncan doesn't meet the DN? The DN is not one to be taken down by a paltry bunch of deepstalkers, spiders, and whatnot.

Answer being: upon recruiting the DC, he says they're leaving for Ostagar immediately. He actually says this.

If he was going to recruit other Wardens -- really attempt to do so -- then he wouldn't have left before the DN's feast as he was an honored guest who was also hoping to gain the aid of the Dwarves in trying to find evidence of the Archdemon.

[TEWR]

Jedimaster88 wrote...

Eamon to Alistair: "Without you Loghain would win. I would have to support him for Ferelden´s sake. Is that what you want?"  (Dont remember if it was 100% like this but at least something like this)

This gives me the idea that Eamon is not unreasonable. I believe that during the blight he would support Loghain because of Ferelden. What happens after the blight... well that I cant say.

Bear in mind that he also believes that Loghain killed Cailan, the same view that Teagan holds and Teagan was told by Loghain -- and so were the rest of the Bannorn -- that Cailan was a glory-hounding fool. He refused to believe it.

He certainly recognizes the Darkspawn as the immediate threat, but he's not willing to go to Loghain's side unless backed into a corner. He still views Loghain as being wrong, but he's at least willing to see that if necessary Loghain is the lesser of two evils -- something the Bannorn was incapable of seeing when it should've been obvious. They decide that politics is more important then taking on a ravenous horde of pestilence and destruction.

I actually think that Eamon only brought that up, when Alistair takes issue with the idea of him being the claimant, to guilt Alistair into being on his side. 

Im a bit curious. Ferelden is weakened after the blight. Its army is not as strong as it was before and the allies the warden gathered have propably left, because they agreed to fight the blight, not other battles. Oh and of course there are still darkspawn running around.

If Orlais truly intended to take Ferelden, why not attack after the blight? They could very well make up some excuse for coming or they could just coldly come anyway with brute force.

Well, Celene has been apparently trying to keep the nobles at bay. It stands to reason that she's been fighting with them for years and years. 

But Bioware's been awfully wishy-washy on how they want to portray her. Some sources say she's an expansionistic empress much like Drakon I was, while other sources paint her as some peace-loving saint.

I know its not said anywhere who struck first and my believe could very well be wrong but I wouldnt be that supprised if Loghain did strike first. Especially with all that "the nobility must be brought to line" kind of attitude. I can imagine him striking first as to make an examble of what would happen if they continue.

Since that would be the politically stupid move -- and Loghain is a political idiot -- it's entirely possible he did strike the first blow, but from a military perspective it's equally possible he didn't do that. In his mind he might've been thinking that if the Bannorn saw him as being unwilling to strike the first blow, they might've seen that he was trying to conserve the nation's forces to fight the Darkspawn and didn't want a civil war.

And then they struck the first blow, and he was forced to act because he needed a united Ferelden to stand against the Darkspawn. You can't fight a war on two fronts, after all, and win easily. Especially when your main enemy is a horde of never-ending humanoid monsters.

After all, the Bannorn decided petty politics were more important then siding with Loghain, whom they should've viewed as the lesser of two evils.

[thats1evildude]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

In-game evidence points to this having happened after Ostagar, not before.

What does the timing matter? Poisoning Eamon still worsened the country's chances of surving the Blight. Not only because Eamon was put out of commission, but because it resulted in Connor's possession.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

He never started it. He antagonized the Bannorn, sure. He made demands that reminded the Bannorn of what Orlais did -- though Loghain has at least a good reason for those demands and it isn't for power.

It's the same thing. Anyways, in-game evidence strongly points to Loghain attacking those nobles who simply refused to bow to him without attempting to wrest power, so I'm inclined to put the blame at his feet.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Uldred was a vocal Libertarian who had a lot of influence with the Circle. Uldred and Loghain were not two people that knew each other closely, so why Loghain should be condemned for going to Uldred for assistance and promising the Circle to have more freedoms -- or autonomy, I can't recall -- I don't get.

Were it not for the bargain with Loghain, Uldred likely would not have pressed for autonomy, given that he would not have had the support of the regent otherwise. The confrontation with Wynne would not have happened — a confrontation that only happened becuase of Loghain's backing — and the demon invasion at the tower would not have occured. Thus, the Circle would not have been weakened and could have played a greater part in the war.

Loghain may not have intended for demons to take over the tower, but his actions indirectly caused it to happen.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Howe did that. Riordan tells you that Howe was responsible for his capture, imprisonment, and torture.

I'm not certain Loghain knew about it, as we have Word of God saying Howe did a great many things without Loghain's knowledge or approval.

Why wouldn't Howe inform Loghain of his capture of a Grey Warden? Loghain was the one who put out a bounty on Grey Wardens. He approved the hiring of the Antivan Crows.

Howe may not have told Loghain about all his activities, but why wouldn't he inform him of something that Loghain himself would have done?

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

If one were to study Thedosian history and recent events in the Dragon Age, they'd understand why Loghain felt that he couldn't trust the Grey Wardens and viewed them as Orlesian agents -- which I'd argue made him feel a bit more pain for how the last known Theirin child was, in his mind, lost to Orlais.

Suspicion of the Grey Wardens may have been warranted in peace time, but there was a large horde of darkspawn in the south.

And yet he clung to the belief that this was simply a large outpouring of darkspawn from the Deep Roads and not a Blight. Really? Putting aside the issue of the Grey Wardens' secrecy, what did he think was happening? The darkspawn decided to go on ****ing Spring Break?

But no, we had to protect Ferelden from those legions of invisible Orlesian invaders. The man allowed paranoia to cloud his better judgement, and in doing so nearly doomed Ferelden.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 03 février 2013 - 10:36 .

[TEWR]

thats1evildude wrote...

What does the timing matter? Poisoning Eamon still worsened the country's chances of surving the Blight. Not only because Eamon was put out of commission, but because it resulted

Because since it happened after Ostagar, Loghain had done so to increase the chances of the Bannorn backing him. Eamon would've been clouded by his familial relation to Cailan and unable to grasp the truth of Cailan's death being his own doing -- something that the game quite clearly spells out that both Eamon and Teagan believe.

If you remove the person that could instigate a Civil War against you on grounds of suspicious events -- despite Loghain having told the Banns about how Cailan was a glory-hounding idiot that killed himself in battle -- then you have a better shot at the Banns seeing you as the person to rally behind.

In the long run, yes it weakened Ferelden. But had the Banns backed Loghain instead of prioritizing politics over the Darkspawn, Ferelden would've been better off.

And as a pre-emptive comment, no you cannot say Loghain did the same thing. The Bannorn chose to prioritize politics and split the nation's forces over allying temporarily under Loghain, even if they didn't like the prospect of him demanding fealty.

When the Civil War happened, Loghain was forced to prioritize the Civil War over the Darkspawn, because even if he had stepped down all that awaited him would've been at best a trial for regicide -- because they would've believed it to be such -- resulting in imprisonment and removal of lands and at worst a trial for regicide resulting in Loghain's death.

To which Loghain's allies might've started the Civil War anew anyway just to free him.

It's the same thing. Anyways, in-game evidence strongly points to Loghain attacking those nobles who simply refused to bow to him without attempting to wrest power.

Actually, no, in-game evidence doesn't point strongly to Loghain having struck the first blow. It doesn't even really attempt to spell out who started the civil war by striking first. It's about half-and-half.

You know what the Banns were doing? Instead of backing Loghain -- whom they should've viewed as the lesser of two evils if they were going to take issue with his demands -- they decided to prioritize politics and without a leader to unify them, the Banns were trying to fight Loghain and the Darkspawn at the same time. They were fractured and independently trying to survive and failing.

They might win minor battles against Loghain only for the Darkspawn to come and wipe the floor with them.

Never mind there's a serious flaw in logic when the Banns think they even stand a remote chance of defeating the Hero of River Dane and General of the Armies. 

Were it not for the bargain with Loghain, Uldred likely would not have pressed for autonomy, given that he would not have had the support of the regent otherwise.

How can you say that, when it's known that he was a vocal Libertarian who by their own description actively press for autonomy? 

The confrontation with Wynne would not have happened — a confrontation that only happened becuase of Loghain's backing — and the demon invasion at the tower would not have occured. Thus, the Circle would not have been weakened and could have played a greater part in the war.

Loghain may not have intended for demons to take over the tower, but his actions indirectly caused it to happen.

His actions did no such thing. Uldred's actions and Wynne's actions are the cause of the fate of the Circle. To say Loghain is responsible for the calamity the Circle endured is trying to ascribe guilt to parties that had no part in events that transpired.

Why wouldn't Howe inform Loghain of his capture of a Grey Warden? Loghain was the one who put out a bounty on Grey Wardens. He approved the hiring of the Antivan Crows.

Howe may not have told Loghain about all his activities, but why wouldn't he inform him of something that Loghain himself would have done?

I'm not saying that Loghain didn't know, just that I'm not certain he knew. It's likely Howe did tell him, but there's nothing in-game pointing to that aside from what would make sense.

Although given how the Warden and Alistair are taken to Fort Drakon and imprisoned -- but no worse for wear -- it's more likely he did know. I suppose it depends on if the Wardens would've been tortured for information there as Riordan was with Howe.

Apologetic nonsense. Suspicion of the Grey Wardens may have been warranted in peace time, but there was a large horde of darkspawn in the south.

And yet he clung to the belief that this was simply a large outpouring of darkspawn from the Deep Roads and not a Blight. Really? Putting aside the issue of the Grey Wardens' secrecy, what did he think was happening? The darkspawn decided to go on ****ing Spring Break?

You can't put aside the issue of the Grey Wardens' secrecy. That's an important factor in just why he thought this.

The Grey Wardens' secrecy in turn gave rise to why he couldn't believe it was a Blight until later on in the game. If Duncan had told Loghain and Cailan in a secret meeting of just why the Wardens were necessary, then he would've had information to go on that would've made him A) believe it to be a Blight and more importantly give him reason to trust the Grey Wardens.

He acknowledged in the first Landsmeet after Ostagar that they were the true threat, but that Ferelden can ill afford to seem weak. It was only when he was faced with the threat of a disunified Ferelden rebelling against him that he had to prioritize the civil war.

He needed to unify Ferelden -- by force, something he never wanted -- so that he could fight the Darkspawn. You cannot wage a war on two fronts. Especially not against a Blight. This isn't just something Loghain believes. It's something Eamon himself believes as well. A fractured nation does no one any good in fighting the Darkspawn.

But no, we had to protect Ferelden from those legions of invisible Orlesian invaders. The man allowed paranoia to cloud his better judgement, and in doing so nearly doomed Ferelden.

Considering the Orlesians lied about how many men they were bringing, his paranoia was spot on. They said four legions of Chevaliers accompanied by the Wardens would be on their way, but Riordan -- one of those Wardens -- says that two dozen divisions accompanied by the Wardens were on their way.

They lied about how many men they were bringing. A division is a larger amount of men then a legion.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 03 février 2013 - 10:45 .

[thats1evildude]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Because since it happened after Ostagar, Loghain had done so to increase the chances of the Bannorn backing him. Eamon would've been clouded by his familial relation to Cailan and unable to grasp the truth of Cailan's death being his own doing -- something that the game quite clearly spells out that both Eamon and Teagan believe.

If you remove the person that could instigate a Civil War against you on grounds of suspicious events -- despite Loghain having told the Banns about how Cailan was a glory-hounding idiot that killed himself in battle -- then you have a better shot at the Banns seeing you as the person to rally behind.

But there was a civil war anyways. Poisoning Eamon didn't stop that from happening. As you said, it just weakened Ferelden.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

In the long run, yes it weakened Ferelden. But had the Banns backed Loghain instead of prioritizing politics over the Darkspawn, Ferelden would've been better off.

And if Loghain had not given into foolish paranoia, then there need not have been a crisis.

It always comes back to one thing for me: Cailan was willing to retreat from Ostagar if Loghain had just relented and admitted the Orlesians could help. But no, DEM ORLESIANS WANNA TAKE OVER MAH COUNTRY!

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Actually, no, in-game evidence doesn't point strongly to Loghain having struck the first blow.

That's not what I meant. What I meant was that Loghain was forcing confrontations that didn't need to happen. I saw with my own eyes his envoys trying to bully minor nobles and the dwarves themselves into following him. If he had just called a Landsmeet or taken an approach other than "You're with me or you're against me", maybe the civil war would not have been necessary.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

You know what the Banns were doing? Instead of backing Loghain -- whom they should've viewed as the lesser of two evils if they were going to take issue with his demands -- they decided to prioritize politics and without a leader to unify them, the Banns were trying to fight Loghain and the Darkspawn at the same time. They were fractured and independently trying to survive and failing.

The Bannorn may be a pack of power-hungry dogs, but their reaction and motives are at least predictable. For such a supposed military genius, Loghain has a pretty ******-poor grasp of politics.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

How can you say that, when it's known that he was a vocal Libertarian who by their own description actively press for autonomy?

He only went to the Senior Enchanters and said "Let's back Loghain" because he had the regent in his corner.

Summoning the pride demon was an act of desperation because Wynne had outed Uldred's collaboration with a traitor. If Loghain had not been working with Uldred, then the crisis need not have happened.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

You can't put aside the issue of the Grey Wardens' secrecy. That's an important factor in just why he thought this.

No, it's not.

Here's what Loghain knew without the Grey Wardens shedding light on their secrets:

Darkspawn stay in the Deep Roads.
Darkspawn only come to the surface in large numbers when there is a Blight.
There were large numbers of darkspawn in the south.

With that information in hand, it shouldn't have been hard for a supposed military genius to come up with the conclusion that there was a Blight, which has only ever been defeated with the support of the Grey Wardens.

Instead, he reached this conclusion: GOTTA PROTECT MAH COUNTRY FROM DEM FRENCHEIS! Better kill all the Grey Wardens to be safe.

Sure, Duncan might have put forward a more compelling case if he'd let Cailan know about that whole "we can hear the Archdemon in dreams" thing. But as there's no way to verify that the Grey Wardens are dreaming of the Archdemon, it's more likely that Loghain would have decided they're lying anyway and go to Plan B: Slaughter the Wardens to Safeguard Ferelden from those Dirty Frenchies.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Considering the Orlesians lied about how many men they were bringing, his paranoia was spot on. They said four legions of Chevaliers accompanied by the Wardens would be on their way, but Riordan -- one of those Wardens -- says that two dozen divisions accompanied by the Wardens were on their way.

They lied about how many men they were bringing. A division is a larger amount of men then a legion.

Assuming that Thedas uses the same terminology as we do for determining the size of troop formations, that doesn't prove anything. Riordan entered Ferelden AFTER the disaster of Ostagar. It's entirely possible that more troops were added to the force headed to Ferelden after news broke that a large portion of Ferelden's army had been slaughtered.

And really, if the Orlesians were so intent on using the Blight as a backdoor to re-conquering Ferelden, why did they allow their troops to be turned away at the border? And why didn't they try to take the country after the Blight, when Ferelden's military was severely weakened?

OK, me need sleep now.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 03 février 2013 - 11:10 .

[dainbramage]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

I don't think going home was an option, but wiping the floor with the Blight?

The Wardens won because the archdemon showed itself at the head of the horde. Probably because it knew there was a paucity of Wardens. And I don't think any cavalry are pictured in the Denerim Battle. How much good would a horse be against darkspawn anyway? Horses spook, and darkspawn... are spooky.

Yeah, those 500,000 are Orlesian troops who were turned back at the border, they're not involved in the events of origins. But they wouldn't have been turned back if Cailan was king, rather than Loghain being regent. And if the warden is a dwarf, you can ask for assistance against the darkspawn in the deep roads, where ferelden soldiers prove effective. If the archdemon remained underground it could be tracked, pursued and killed.

EDIT: Accidentally a word

Modifié par dainbramage, 03 février 2013 - 11:35 .

[MisterJB]

thats1evildude wrote...
And really, if the Orlesians were so intent on using the Blight as a backdoor to re-conquering Ferelden, why did they allow their troops to be turned away at the border? And why didn't they try to take the country after the Blight, when Ferelden's military was severely weakened?

Well, because Ferelden is basically serving as a meatshield for Orlais. If it is destroyed, let the Fereldans take at least some Darkspawn with them; it will make both the defence of Orlais and the conquest of Ferelden territory post-Blight remarkably easier. And if they win, they will still be weakened while the orlesian will not have lost a man.

Alistair in Act 3 suggests some orlesian nobles wish to conquer Ferelden.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

dainbramage wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

I don't think going home was an option, but wiping the floor with the Blight?

The Wardens won because the archdemon showed itself at the head of the horde. Probably because it knew there was a paucity of Wardens. And I don't think any cavalry are pictured in the Denerim Battle. How much good would a horse be against darkspawn anyway? Horses spook, and darkspawn... are spooky.

Yeah, those 500,000 are Orlesian troops who were turned back at the border, they're not involved in the events of origins. But they wouldn't have been turned back if Cailan was king, rather than Loghain being regent. And if the warden is a dwarf, you can ask for assistance against the darkspawn in the deep roads, where ferelden soldiers prove effective. If the archdemon remained underground it could be tracked, pursued and killed.

EDIT: Accidentally a word

What I'm asking is how much good they would have done if they hadn't been turned back. Do we even know if horses can stomach fighting near darkspawn? And for that matter, one can wonder whether the Orlesians would have turned them on Ferelden after the Blight was ended.

And pursuing an archdemon in the Deep Roads? Well, that can theoretically work, if there are few enough darkspawn in the Roads that the Archdemon can't escape by sending those at them, (we don't know just what percentage of the darkspawn are sent onto the surface) and if the Archdemon doesn't simply find some crevice in the Deep Roads it can navigate that the Wardens can't. The one at Bownammar, for instance.