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[Jedimaster88]

The Ethereal Writer Redux

"He can't really trust Eamon because he believes Eamon's familial relation to Cailan would cloud his judgment and make him think Loghain deliberately killed Cailan -- which is true, as that's precisely what Eamon does and Teagan does as well."

If you mention Ostagar at the landsmeet, that one guy wants to know just what exactly happended there. If some of them feel that way, it makes you wonder just what exactly did he tell them. Is it possible that Loghain managed to also screw up in telling the truth?


thats1evildude

"And really, if the Orlesians were so intent on using the Blight as a backdoor to re-conquering Ferelden, why did they allow their troops to be turned away at the border? And why didn't they try to take the country after the Blight, when Ferelden's military was severely weakened?"

If you look at the previous posts, you´ll see that I already asked pretty much the same thing and it was answered.

Modifié par Jedimaster88, 03 février 2013 - 06:11 .

[TEWR]

Jedimaster88 wrote...

Is it possible that Loghain managed to also screw up in telling the truth?

He told the truth and told what he believed to be the truth based on everything that had happened. Bann Teagan's DA wiki page has the exact quote where, if you ask him about not believing Loghain, he remarks on just what Loghain told the Banns.

The basic gist of it was this: "What, that Cailan was seeking glory and got himself killed? That the Wardens betrayed the nation? No, I do not believe it."

The first part about Cailan is true. The second part, for Loghain, is what he believes to be true because history and recent evidence pointed to that being the stronger case -- but still wrong.

[TEWR]

[quote]thats1evildude wrote...

But there was a civil war anyways. Poisoning Eamon didn't stop that from happening. As you said, it just weakened Ferelden.[/quote]

Yes, but there was also reason to keep Eamon from awakening, I assume for Loghain's mindset. Eamon would've unified the Banns and made the civil war that much harder to quell.

Now, of course, he actually wants to attempt the diplomatic solution. But Loghain probably didn't realize that. And even so, it's not like he could help Eamon get better if he wanted to after what happened in Redcliffe by Connor's actions. Messages and people can't get out and certainly no one could get into the castle without first weakening the forces the Demon was using.

[quote]

And if Loghain had not given into foolish paranoia, then there need not have been a crisis.[/quote]

It's hardly foolish when your fears are proven by history, by recent events, and by what happens down the line.

[quote]It always comes back to one thing for me: Cailan was willing to retreat from Ostagar if Loghain had just relented and admitted the Orlesians could help. But no, DEM ORLESIANS WANNA TAKE OVER MAH COUNTRY![/quote]

Um, no. For one thing, Cailan's not going to wait for the Orlesian forces who are going to take weeks and weeks to navigate through the lone narrow pass in the Frostbacks, not when he refused repeatedly Eamon's forces who could've been there in less then a week. There's a gaping flaw in logic if you're refusing the aid of soldiers from your own nation who are closer but you're apparently willing to wait for forces that will take a crapton more time to get to you.

Second, he doesn't say "Perhaps we should pull back and wait for the Orlesians." He just says "Let's wait for the Orlesians". There's a difference between the two concepts. One is suggesting pulling back to get more forces, while the other is suggesting staying in place for those same forces to meet you there.

Third, he only brought that up to get Loghain to capitulate to his (Cailan's) desire to fight on the front lines against the advice of both Eamon and Loghain.

[quote]

That's not what I meant. What I meant was that Loghain was forcing confrontations that didn't need to happen. I saw with my own eyes his envoys trying to bully minor nobles and the dwarves themselves into following him. If he had just called a Landsmeet or taken an approach other than "You're with me or you're against me", maybe the civil war would not have been necessary.[/quote]

Ah. Well you did say that he struck the first blow, so you can understand my confusion. But yes, had he been a better politician things might've gone differently.

But I've never once claimed he was a good politician. Only that his demands at the Landsmeet, while antagonistic, were not outrageous.

[quote]

The Bannorn may be a pack of power-hungry dogs, but their reaction and motives are at least predictable. For such a supposed military genius, Loghain has a pretty ******-poor grasp of politics.[/quote]

I will not disagree with him being a ******-poor politician. That's part of what makes him a good character. It's a flaw of his.

[quote]

He only went to the Senior Enchanters and said "Let's back Loghain" because he had the regent in his corner.

Summoning the pride demon was an act of desperation because Wynne had outed Uldred's collaboration with a traitor. If Loghain had not been working with Uldred, then the crisis need not have happened.[/quote]

You can't really say that. You can't say that Uldred wouldn't have pushed for the Mages to support Loghain anyway, since he was intent on fighting the Darkspawn during that first Landsmeet -- before circumstance forced him to prioritize fighting the rebelling Banns -- and it would give them a chance to flex their mental muscles after Ostagar's failure.

Loghain or no, Uldred seemed like the type of person who would've tried to do so anyway.

[quote]

No, it's not.[/quote]

Yes, it is.


[quote]Here's what Loghain knew without the Grey Wardens shedding light on their secrets:

Darkspawn stay in the Deep Roads.
Darkspawn only come to the surface in large numbers when there is a Blight.
There were large numbers of darkspawn in the south.

With that information in hand, it shouldn't have been hard for a supposed military genius to come up with the conclusion that there was a Blight, which has only ever been defeated with the support of the Grey Wardens.[/quote]

Only? No. Usually, yes. Most raids are small, but that doesn't mean all of them are. Alphas and Emissaries can command lesser Darkspawn and raids of a fearsome size had happened in the past, but not anything like what Ferelden faced in DAO.

There had been no sightings of dragons in the Korcari Wilds, which typically show up during Blights. All the Darkspawn the men had fought were just Hurlocks and Genlocks. The Ogres only started to show up around the time we came to Ostagar, but even then they hadn't been faced directly in battle. Only scattered reports were given about the presence of Ogres by a couple of survivors. If the Ogres had been more common in the battles, then there also would've been more reason for the army to believe it's a Blight.

Blight or no, Loghain acknowledged that they were the immediate problem that needed to be dealt with, but that Ferelden can ill afford to appear weakened and fractured after Cailan's death. That's the problem the Free Marches, Nevarra, and the Anderfels faced during the Blights of old and the Orlesians came in to "help" those nations, but never left. If Ferelden looks to be stronger then those, then it makes them seem more fearsome to the Orlesians -- and thus might even make them hesitant to employ their same old tactics.

However, all this said I have never once tried to say that it was completely the Wardens' fault for Ostagar's failure. I ascribe more blame to the army itself, as yes they should've taken the veracity of the Blight as being possible. But the Wardens also bear their share of blame.

For me, it's 60-40. People had been told in the Fourth Blight that the Darkspawn were wiped out for good, and people went on believing this -- without even consulting the Dwarves or the Grey Wardens. It was used as a means to restore order after the chaotic events that happened. This is due in part to how many Darkspawn were slain over the course of the entire Fourth Blight. A whole ****load of Darkspawn were killed.

The sheer presence of Darkspawn in the south should've clued them into believing the Wardens. But I can also kinda understand why they were skeptical, as you never heard any reports of Darkspawn attacking the surface lands during the intervening centuries -- meaning it took the Darkspawn centuries to recover their numbers.

And if that wasn't enough, the fact that Duncan can possibly go out to Orzammar to find evidence of the Blight should've also told them to take it seriously.

Just as well, however, the fact that he's going out there to look for evidence also suggests to those people that he might not be certain, which might compound their questioning beliefs on the Blight's nature.

How can you take a Warden's word for the truth, if what he's doing suggests he's not certain? Matters are not helped by the continuous secrecy and by Duncan's failing to adhere to the Warden mantra: Whatever it takes to defeat the Blight.

One would think that lying about finding evidence of the Archdemon would also apply to that mantra.



[quote]

Sure, Duncan might have put forward a more compelling case if he'd let Cailan know about that whole "we can hear the Archdemon in dreams" thing. But as there's no way to verify that the Grey Wardens are dreaming of the Archdemon, it's more likely that Loghain would have decided they're lying anyway and go to Plan B: Slaughter the Wardens to Safeguard Ferelden from those Dirty Frenchies.[/quote]

I don't see him doing this at all. Especially not if Duncan told the two of them that they drink Darkspawn blood and that the reason the Archdemons can only be defeated by the Wardens is due to how the Archdemon will possess any Darkspawn if a non-Warden kills it, but will perish in truth when it attempts to take over a Warden that struck the final blow.

[quote]
Assuming that Thedas uses the same terminology as we do for determining the size of troop formations, that doesn't prove anything. Riordan entered Ferelden AFTER the disaster of Ostagar. It's entirely possible that more troops were added to the force headed to Ferelden after news broke that a large portion of Ferelden's army had been slaughtered.[/quote]

Riordan talks about how many troops were turned away at the border before he was sent to Ferelden. The Orlesians were already on their way before and during Ostagar, but were turned away at the border after Ostagar.

[quote]And really, if the Orlesians were so intent on using the Blight as a backdoor to re-conquering Ferelden, why did they allow their troops to be turned away at the border? And why didn't they try to take the country after the Blight, when Ferelden's military was severely weakened?

OK, me need sleep now.

[/quote]

What MisterJB said.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 04 février 2013 - 05:21 .

[dainbramage]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

dainbramage wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

I don't think going home was an option, but wiping the floor with the Blight?

The Wardens won because the archdemon showed itself at the head of the horde. Probably because it knew there was a paucity of Wardens. And I don't think any cavalry are pictured in the Denerim Battle. How much good would a horse be against darkspawn anyway? Horses spook, and darkspawn... are spooky.

Yeah, those 500,000 are Orlesian troops who were turned back at the border, they're not involved in the events of origins. But they wouldn't have been turned back if Cailan was king, rather than Loghain being regent. And if the warden is a dwarf, you can ask for assistance against the darkspawn in the deep roads, where ferelden soldiers prove effective. If the archdemon remained underground it could be tracked, pursued and killed.

EDIT: Accidentally a word

What I'm asking is how much good they would have done if they hadn't been turned back. Do we even know if horses can stomach fighting near darkspawn? And for that matter, one can wonder whether the Orlesians would have turned them on Ferelden after the Blight was ended.

And pursuing an archdemon in the Deep Roads? Well, that can theoretically work, if there are few enough darkspawn in the Roads that the Archdemon can't escape by sending those at them, (we don't know just what percentage of the darkspawn are sent onto the surface) and if the Archdemon doesn't simply find some crevice in the Deep Roads it can navigate that the Wardens can't. The one at Bownammar, for instance.

If the horses are scared of darkspawn and can't be conditioned, then get off and fight on foot. And you've still got a far superior army to the ferelden one.

Orlais could attack whether or not they helped during the blight. In fact they'd be in a far better position to do so not helping. Helping with the blight would only weaken Orlais and strengthen Ferelden - if you wanted to invade, letting it fall would make much more sense than sending in armies before the blight ends. So Loghain in turning them back would have to assume that whoever is leading the troops is stupid if they want to annex Ferelden again.

As for hiding in the deep roads, Thedas has been getting progressively better at dealing with blights. 192 years to 90 to 15 to 12 to 6 months. In the fourth blight darkspawn were nearly wiped out altogether and it took them two centuries longer between blights than it had previously. The Archdemon could keep running, but eventually the deep roads would be scoured, and it'd be cornered and killed. If it is running and the timescales get longer, it'd be more than Ferelden and Orlesian troops chasing it too, the rest of Thedas would pitch in.

Modifié par dainbramage, 04 février 2013 - 06:07 .

[TEWR]

6 month

1 year, actually.

[Addai]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
But you find out that Loghain and his men have been at Ostagar the entire time.

Where?

I can't really buy into that line of reasoning. I'll accept Duncan going to Redcliffe before or after a particular origin story since all roads essentially lead there when going to Ostagar, but for him to have gone to other origin story locales and having missed the other Wardens kinda... boggles my mind.

*shrug*  Whatever.  You can make it work if you want to.

Answer being: upon recruiting the DC, he says they're leaving for Ostagar immediately. He actually says this.

He says they're leaving, doesn't say he doesn't have other stops on the way.

[thats1evildude]

MisterJB wrote...

Well, because Ferelden is basically serving as a meatshield for Orlais. If it is destroyed, let the Fereldans take at least some Darkspawn with them; it will make both the defence of Orlais and the conquest of Ferelden territory post-Blight remarkably easier. And if they win, they will still be weakened while the orlesian will not have lost a man.

So, the Orlesians lie about their troop numbers so they want to conquer Ferelden, but then they turn right around at the border because they figure it's better to let Ferelden to potentially be destroyed by the darkspawn?

Those are awfully conflicting motives. One would wonder why they bothered to send a few hundred thousand troops to the border when they could have accomplished the same goal by sitting in Val Royeaux and doing nothing. Perhaps Empress Celene decided that her chevaliers needed a bit of exercise?

And it doesn't answer the question of why the big bad Orlesians didn't immediately strike following the end of the Blight. If you listen to the ambient dialogue in DA2, it's pretty clear that this is what everyone expected them to, but they didn't.

Yes, I'm aware that there are some nobles who think it would be a good idea, but they're not in charge of the current administration. The Orlesians were never planning to invade; that was just Loghain's paranoia.

[Addai]

That's easy- Cailan was dead. Celene expected a marriage alliance and de facto occupation. I interpret the huge numbers of chevaliers as added intimidation factor in case Cailan got cold feet. IMO the game was more complicated than simply an invasion, but that doesn't mean that letting that many heavy cavalry from an expansionist colonizer into your country is a good idea.

[thats1evildude]

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Yes, but there was also reason to keep Eamon from awakening, I assume for Loghain's mindset. Eamon would've unified the Banns and made the civil war that much harder to quell.[/QUOTE]

Oh, well, that makes it all better. Obviously, when everyone says your bloody coup that started with the murder of your best friend's son is in the wrong, that just means you should try harder. Because obviously Loghain was the only person that could protect Ferelden.

What massive arrogance.

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

It's hardly foolish when your fears are proven by history, by recent events, and by what happens down the line.[/QUOTE]

What happened down the line? The Orlesian invasion that never came?

CURSE THOSE ORLESIANS! They sold Ferelden's peoples to slaves! They killed nobles that didn't agree with them! They tortured innocent people to get what they want OH WAIT THIS ALL SOUNDS FAMILIAR

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Um, no. For one thing, Cailan's not going to wait for the Orlesian forces who are going to take weeks and weeks to navigate through the lone narrow pass in the Frostbacks, not when he refused repeatedly Eamon's forces who could've been there in less then a week. There's a gaping flaw in logic if you're refusing the aid of soldiers from your own nation who are closer but you're apparently willing to wait for forces that will take a crapton more time to get to you.

Second, he doesn't say "Perhaps we should pull back and wait for the Orlesians." He just says "Let's wait for the Orlesians". There's a difference between the two concepts. One is suggesting pulling back to get more forces, while the other is suggesting staying in place for those same forces to meet you there.[/QUOTE]

Cailan is obviously referring to a retreat. Ferelden's armies didn't attack the darkspawn at Ostagar, they just held a defensive position.

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Third, he only brought that up to get Loghain to capitulate to his (Cailan's) desire to fight on the front lines against the advice of both Eamon and Loghain.[/quote]

Well, I think Cailan's actual intent was to use a Fereldan/Orlesian alliance as a backdoor to announcing his divorce from Anora and a marriage to Empress Celene.

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

You can't really say that. You can't say that Uldred wouldn't have pushed for the Mages to support Loghain anyway, since he was intent on fighting the Darkspawn during that first Landsmeet -- before circumstance forced him to prioritize fighting the rebelling Banns -- and it would give them a chance to flex their mental muscles after Ostagar's failure.[/QUOTE]

But Uldred was aware of Loghain's plans. That's how he not only survived Ostagar but made it to the Circle tower before Wynne. And it was Wynne's outing him as a conspirator that drove him to summon the pride demon in desperation.

He spent years training blood mages in secret and gathering allies. I can't see why he'd force the issue in the middle of a war.

Loghain or no, Uldred seemed like the type of person who would've tried to do so anyway.

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Only? No. Usually, yes. Most raids are small, but that doesn't mean all of them are. Alphas and Emissaries can command lesser Darkspawn and raids of a fearsome size had happened in the past, but not anything like what Ferelden faced in DAO.

There had been no sightings of dragons in the Korcari Wilds, which typically show up during Blights. All the Darkspawn the men had fought were just Hurlocks and Genlocks. The Ogres only started to show up around the time we came to Ostagar, but even then they hadn't been faced directly in battle. Only scattered reports were given about the presence of Ogres by a couple of survivors. If the Ogres had been more common in the battles, then there also would've been more reason for the army to believe it's a Blight.[/QUOTE]

I'm not sure where you're getting this information. To my knowledge, darkspawn only form into large warbands at the behest of an Archdemon or an extremely powerful darkspawn like the Mother.

And there were emissaries and alphas alike in the Korcari Wilds, not just simple genlocks and hurlocks.

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

The sheer presence of Darkspawn in the south should've clued them into believing the Wardens. But I can also kinda understand why they were skeptical, as you never heard any reports of Darkspawn attacking the surface lands during the intervening centuries -- meaning it took the Darkspawn centuries to recover their numbers.[/QUOTE]

I chalk up any refusals to believe as simply not wanting to believee, as the prospect of a Blight is pretty horrible.

But the common man's ignorance is one thing; it's another when the commander-in-chief is refusing to believe the evidence in front of his eyes.

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

How can you take a Warden's word for the truth, if what he's doing suggests he's not certain? Matters are not helped by the continuous secrecy and by Duncan's failing to adhere to the Warden mantra: Whatever it takes to defeat the Blight.[/QUOTE]

I can appreciate Duncan wanting to be certain, given that the Blight is such a horrible prospect.

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I don't see him doing this at all. Especially not if Duncan told the two of them that they drink Darkspawn blood and that the reason the Archdemons can only be defeated by the Wardens is due to how the Archdemon will possess any Darkspawn if a non-Warden kills it, but will perish in truth when it attempts to take over a Warden that struck the final blow.

I sure can. The man was blinded by paranoia.

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Riordan talks about how many troops were turned away at the border before he was sent to Ferelden. The Orlesians were already on their way before and during Ostagar, but were turned away at the border after Ostagar.
[/quote]

He was part of the Warden/chevalier force sent to Ferelden that was turned away. That's when he was sent into the country on a fact-finding mission.

There was time enough to add to the Orlesian reinforcements.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 04 février 2013 - 10:06 .

[thats1evildude]

Addai67 wrote...

That's easy- Cailan was dead. Celene expected a marriage alliance and de facto occupation. I interpret the huge numbers of chevaliers as added intimidation factor in case Cailan got cold feet. IMO the game was more complicated than simply an invasion, but that doesn't mean that letting that many heavy cavalry from an expansionist colonizer into your country is a good idea.

Oh, an alliance through marriage was no doubt intended, but there were actual darkspawn to fight. A large force was necessary.

If you truly believe that Celene had designs of invading Ferelden, then you need to anwer the question of why Orlais hasn't taken over a weakened Ferelden now that the Blight is over.

My answer: they never did. Loghain was delusional.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 04 février 2013 - 10:04 .

[TEWR]

[quote]thats1evildude wrote...

Oh, well, that makes it all better. Obviously, when everyone says your bloody coup that started with the murder of your best friend's son is in the wrong, that just means you should try harder. Because obviously Loghain was the only person that could protect Ferelden.

What massive arrogance.[/quote]

I said I assume. I don't actually know why he didn't do it. It could just as easily be that because of the events in Redcliffe, Loghain wouldn't be able to actually give the antidote to them.

Worse still, were he to attempt to do so what possible reason would Isolde and Teagan have to trust him after Jowan spilled the beans? I wouldn't blame them if they didn't trust Loghain if he sent the antidote, frankly.

So it could be either due to not wanting Eamon to awaken, inability to help, or a lack of trust after he did poison Eamon and rendered him in a coma.

[quote]
What happened down the line? The Orlesian invasion that never came?[/quote]

Which could be due to a multitude of reasons other then "They're not all that bad". Considering half of Orlais is intent on reconquering Orlais and Celene was described as an expansionistic person in the DAII Collector's Edition guide.

And also, he doesn't just fear an Orlesian invasion. He fears anything that would give Orlais the chance to exert authority over Ferelden. An invasion is only one part of that. The political marriage that was most likely what Cailan and Celene were going to do is another part of that. 

I say "most likely" because while DG said that was the original plot, said plot was ultimately scrapped and when revisited in RtO was only implied. It's never confirmed to be the case, but it's the most likely scenario.


[quote]CURSE THOSE ORLESIANS! They sold Ferelden's peoples to slaves! They killed nobles that didn't agree with them! They tortured innocent people to get what they want OH WAIT THIS ALL SOUNDS FAMILIAR[/quote]

Sure, if you only look at the surface.

Had the Circle allied with Loghain, he could've used the Lucrosians and Formari to raise funds for the war effort instead of selling the Elves to the Tevinters. Ferelden does not have anything that can garner coin (fast enough) during the Blight. Their smiths aren't very remarkable and they don't have much that they can export. The only things they have that can really raise funds are the Circle and the Ashes -- the latter only becoming known and verified after the Blight, where it could possibly serve as a pilgrimage site.

Loghain doesn't actually kill nobles that don't agree with him. The Orlesians killed anyone that didn't bow down to them. Loghain, while pissed, did not do that. It was only when the Civil War began that nobles possibly started dying -- I mean that happens when you're fighting in a war, after all.

He didn't kill the lords and made it a point to actually arrest those that he fought against and didn't kill. As they were fighting against the crown, arresting them is actually a decent thing to do to your enemies.

Though it should be noted that some of the Banns rebelling against Loghain were acting even more short-sighted then just by the initial rebellion. You'll hear how one Bann decided to burn her crops out of spite towards Loghain and his men.

While she has every right to do with her land as she pleases -- and has a good motivation, as her husband was killed in battle during the Battle of Winter's Breath -- she's also causing her own people to suffer as well. And I have to wonder if she regrets having burnt her crops once the Blight ended and Ferelden began to suffer food shortages. Seems I missed a detail: that woman was killed in her home by Loghain's men as retribution for how three of their comrades died.

I doubt Loghain authorized that, as the rumors talk about the men taking justice into their own hands as opposed to following orders.

And you don't know that Loghain authorized the torture of anyone, let alone knew about it. The only one you can possibly make a case for him knowing about is Riordan, and even then we don't know.

[quote]

Cailan is obviously referring to a retreat.[/quote]

Unless he specifies that's what he's referring to, I'm taking his words for what they are. A statement of waiting, not retreating and waiting. 

And this doesn't change the fact that he's still arguing that they should wait for forces that are weeks and weeks away while refusing repeatedly the immediate aid of his uncle's forces who could be there in less then one week. I'm not going to believe that he'll wait for them if he's incapable of authorizing his uncle to bring all of his men to Ostagar.

[quote]

Well, I think Cailan's actual intent was to use a Fereldan/Orlesian alliance as a backdoor to announcing his divorce from Anora and a marriage to Empress Celene.[/quote]

To be fair, that's only heavily implied to be what was going through the two royals' minds but it's never been confirmed in-game. Out-game, DG said that was the original idea but it was ultimately scrapped.



[quote]

But Uldred was aware of Loghain's plans. That's how he not only survived Ostagar but made it to the Circle tower before Wynne. And it was Wynne's outing him as a conspirator that drove him to summon the pride demon in desperation.[/quote]

So.... what? Uldred couldn't have survived without being an ally of Loghain? Well, Wynne, Aveline, Hawke, and Carver would beg to differ with that belief.

I'm not saying that he would've summoned the Pride Demon regardless of an alliance with Loghain or not. Just that it seemed like he would've been arguing for the Circle to join up with Loghain anyway if it meant that they could make up for Ostagar's failure -- due in part to how the Chantry refused to send more Mages.

Had more Mages been at Ostagar, Loghain would've thought up a different strategy to use that would've maximized the effectiveness of the Mages.



[quote]

I'm not sure where you're getting this information. To my knowledge, darkspawn only form into large warbands at the behest of an Archdemon or an extremely powerful darkspawn like the Mother.[/quote]

I recall it being stated somewhere that lesser warbands that were certainly powerful -- but not as powerful as a Blight -- have been known to appear in the interim centuries.

But I can't pinpoint where exactly.

[quote]And there were emissaries and alphas alike in the Korcari Wilds, not just simple genlocks and hurlocks.[/quote]

Of course. But that still doesn't make it a Blight. Alphas and Emissaries can be seen outside of Blights on the surfaces as well -- something you see in Witch Hunt, for example.

The codexes for those two says that they usually appear during a Blight. Using the word "usually" says that they have been known to appear in times outside of Blights on the surface lands.

Again, however, this does not point to it being a Blight. The belief was that all of these Darkspawn just banded together to form a large raid, which wasn't unprecedented as lesser versions had happened in the past.

Indeed, even after Ostagar the Darkspawn seemed to be using this belief to their advantage by scattering their forces across the countryside instead of appearing unified. This only compounded the belief. Source.



[quote]

I chalk up any refusals to believe as simply not wanting to believee, as the prospect of a Blight is pretty horrible.

But the common man's ignorance is one thing; it's another when the commander-in-chief is refusing to believe the evidence in front of his eyes.[/quote]

See the above link.

[quote]

I can appreciate Duncan wanting to be certain, given that the Blight is such a horrible prospect.[/quote]

He's already certain, because of the Warden dreams. But he feels that he has to have actual proof to be able to convince them as opposed to just telling them the truth about the Wardens or lying about finding proof.

What I'm saying is that the fact that he made it known that he's going out to find evidence -- despite him being certain already -- is probably going to make people think that he's not certain, and thus they might feel that it's possible it isn't a Blight.

[quote]

I sure can. The man was blinded by paranoia.[/quote]

And he also repeatedly says that the Wardens claims of why they're necessary don't have anything to really back them up, since he wasn't told of why they're necessary.

Had he been told, he would've had grounds to believe them because all this time what he's been going off of were heroic tales of valor about the Wardens.

Not the cold, hard, grim truth of the matter. Loghain is a realist, as opposed to an idealist. If he had been told the reality of the Wardens' nature, then he would've been taken aback and considered their necessity and made appropriate plans factoring them in.

[quote]

He was part of the Warden/chevalier force sent to Ferelden that was turned away. That's when he was sent into the country on a fact-finding mission.

There was time enough to add to the Orlesian reinforcements.
[/quote]

I'm sorry, but I don't know what you're talking about. Riordan says that when he and his men were turned away at the border, they were 24 divisions of cavalry and that's how many men they were bringing with them.

He does not say they brought four legions that eventually became 24 divisions after time passed. A Legion is smaller then a division.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 05 février 2013 - 06:01 .

[Addai]

thats1evildude wrote...

If you truly believe that Celene had designs of invading Ferelden, then you need to anwer the question of why Orlais hasn't taken over a weakened Ferelden now that the Blight is over.

My answer: they never did. Loghain was delusional.

I already said why.  She had reckoned on it being easy.  With Cailan dead and Loghain still alive (or after the Blight, with Ferelden restored under different leadership), the cost-benefit ratio changed.

As for certainty that a Blight is coming, not even the Wardens have this until late in the game.  When you get the camp attack after the 3rd treaty quest, a dialogue option with Alistair saying you saw the archdemon in a dream he says "me too, now we know for sure this is really a Blight."

Modifié par Addai67, 05 février 2013 - 04:56 .

[TEWR]

Addai67 wrote...

As for certainty that a Blight is coming, not even the Wardens have this until late in the game

Assuming you're talking about the Wardens as an organization and not just Alistair and the Warden, you can't really use the inexperience of the new recruits as being equivalent to the experience of veterans who are certain that it's a Blight. Both Duncan and Celene's Warden-Commander knew it to be a Blight.

[MisterJB]

thats1evildude wrote...
So, the Orlesians lie about their troop numbers so they want to conquer Ferelden, but then they turn right around at the border because they figure it's better to let Ferelden to potentially be destroyed by the darkspawn?

Those are awfully conflicting motives. One would wonder why they bothered to send a few hundred thousand troops to the border when they could have accomplished the same goal by sitting in Val Royeaux and doing nothing. Perhaps Empress Celene decided that her chevaliers needed a bit of exercise?

And it doesn't answer the question of why the big bad Orlesians didn't immediately strike following the end of the Blight. If you listen to the ambient dialogue in DA2, it's pretty clear that this is what everyone expected them to, but they didn't.

Yes, I'm aware that there are some nobles who think it would be a good idea, but they're not in charge of the current administration. The Orlesians were never planning to invade; that was just Loghain's paranoia.

You're thinking only in terms of military invasion which is but an option. If Orlais had assisted Ferelden deal with the Blight, they would likely demand portions of Ferelden as reward and would the King deny them? Even the dalish elves have been given land. Never mind if Cailan and Celene married in which case, Ferelden would pretty much be just another portion of Orlais

Of course, that is only possible in a situation where Orlais and Ferelden cooperated to deal with the threat. Had Celene's Chevaliers fought Feredeln troops, all it would accomplish is weaken both countries for the Darkspawn which works against everyone's best interests.

As to the reasons why didn't Orlais invaded immediately after the Blight, Celene strikes me as an peaceful expansionist, Concessions, marriage with Cailan, etc.
Gaspard and his associates probrably prefer a good old fashioned occupation

[TEWR]

MisterJB wrote...

Celene strikes me as an peaceful expansionist

The problem with this is that we have reports that she's an expansionist exactly like Drakon I, who favored military conquests. Hence why I see Bioware as being wishy-washy by trying to paint her as an expansionist one minute and a peace-loving saint the next. You can't be a peaceful expansionist if you're described as being the same as a historical military expansionist.

[thats1evildude]

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

And also, he doesn't just fear an Orlesian invasion. He fears anything that would give Orlais the chance to exert authority over Ferelden. An invasion is only one part of that. The political marriage that was most likely what Cailan and Celene were going to do is another part of that.[/QUOTE]

Yes, yes, and it was that paranoia and mistrust that nearly doomed Ferelden. Which is what I've been saying all along.

Why do people argue with me when they're saying the same things as me?

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Sure, if you only look at the surface.[/QUOTE]

I guess I was too distracted by all those people Loghain either murdered or sold into slavery to look deeper. 

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Had the Circle allied with Loghain, he could've used the Lucrosians and Formari to raise funds for the war effort instead of selling the Elves to the Tevinters. Ferelden does not have anything that can garner coin (fast enough) during the Blight. Their smiths aren't very remarkable and they don't have much that they can export. The only things they have that can really raise funds are the Circle and the Ashes -- the latter only becoming known and verified after the Blight, where it could possibly serve as a pilgrimage site.[/QUOTE]

A guess, Ethereal. You're guessing that Loghain could have used the Circle to raise funds for the war effort. I don't even know if the Formarri operate in Ferelden, and even if they do, Loghain totally screwed the pooch when his attempt at aligning with the Circle ended in its near-destruction.

Why are you so eager to undermine your own Warden's role in defeating the darkspawn in favour of a General Failure like Loghain? Let's examine a history of Loghain's choices:

Decision: Leave Cailan to be killed by the darkspawn.
Result: A succession crisis results in civil war and Loghain ultimately being overthrown in favour of Anora/Alistair.

Decision: Eliminate the Grey Wardens.
Result: Although Loghain wasn't aware of the Grey Wardens' role in ending the Blight, he still got rid of the only people in Ferelden capable of actually slaying the Archdemon, the leader of the darkspawn.

Decision: Poison Arl Eamon.
Result: Not only did it cause Connor's possession by a desire demon and the deaths of many soliders, but it erased any possibility that Eamon would side with Loghain.

Decision: Side with Arl Howe.
Result: Howe did so many terrible things that many nobles turned against Loghain as a result of his actions.

Decision: Attempt to ally with the Circle through Uldred.
Result: A demonic invasion that either nearly or totally wiped out one of Ferelden's best military resources.

Decision: Approve the hiring the Antivan Crows to hunt down the Warden.
Result: The Warden only managed to recruit the assassin sent after him and had the opportunity to work with the Crows to build support at the Landsmeet.

Decision: Bring Tevinter slavers into the Alienage.
Result: The Warden crashed the slavery ring and ended up acquiring evidence to be used against Loghain.

Forget what he intended or what he knew. The original point of this thread was to ask whether or not Loghain saved Ferelden.

Based on the evidence I provided above, the only conclusion we can reach is an emphatic "no." Virtually every one of his decisions backfired and in most cases actually hurt the country's chances of surviving the Blight.

Save Ferelden? I'd sooner entrust the job to Zapp Brannigan.

...
OK, maybe not. 

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

He didn't kill the lords and made it a point to actually arrest those that he fought against and didn't kill. As they were fighting against the crown, arresting them is actually a decent thing to do to your enemies.[/QUOTE]

Uh, I saw him attack people who didn't bow to him. That was the whole point of Loghain's Push.

Who are all these lords he's arresting? Name names. Point out actual examples in the game of Loghain arresting people. And if they were being tortured to death by Howe, it doesn't count.

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

And you don't know that Loghain authorized the torture of anyone, let alone knew about it. The only one you can possibly make a case for him knowing about is Riordan, and even then we don't know.[/quote]

No, I don't. But I do know that he allowed Howe to act with impunity, and that Howe was one of the worst monsters imaginable.

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Unless he specifies that's what he's referring to, I'm taking his words for what they are. A statement of waiting, not retreating and waiting.

And this doesn't change the fact that he's still arguing that they should wait for forces that are weeks and weeks away while refusing repeatedly the immediate aid of his uncle's forces who could be there in less then one week. I'm not going to believe that he'll wait for them if he's incapable of authorizing his uncle to bring all of his men to Ostagar.[/QUOTe]

But it's the only logical conclusion.

And waiting for the Orlesians was the smart option, given that a united Ferelden/Orlesian force would have stood a snowball's chance in hell, 

But no, never mind the darkspawn, they're rubbish and there's no way this could possibly be a Blight. Better reinforce our borders by getting all our men together into one big gay pile. BECAUSE DEM ORLESIANS WANT TO TAKE OUR JERBS! DURKA-DUR!

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

So.... what? Uldred couldn't have survived without being an ally of Loghain? Well, Wynne, Aveline, Hawke, and Carver would beg to differ with that belief.[/QUOTE]

And a lot of people didn't, including Duncan and Cailan.

It was pretty clear that Uldred was in on the plan and thus got away before the end of the battle. If he were not privy to those plans, his head might be on a pike right now.

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Again, however, this does not point to it being a Blight. The belief was that all of these Darkspawn just banded together to form a large raid, which wasn't unprecedented as lesser versions had happened in the past.[/QUOTE]

In other countries, maybe. But in such large numbers that they outnumbered Ferelden's army? And in Ferelden, which had never truly seen a darkspawn invasion?

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

And he also repeatedly says that the Wardens claims of why they're necessary don't have anything to really back them up, since he wasn't told of why they're necessary.

Had he been told, he would've had grounds to believe them because all this time what he's been going off of were heroic tales of valor about the Wardens.[/QUOTE]

The man is obstinate in his beliefs. Even when he was told by a witch who could see the future that he'd end up betraying Maric, he refused to accept it. I think he'd refuse to believe anything that meant capitulating to the Orlesians in even a small way.

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Not the cold, hard, grim truth of the matter. Loghain is a realist, as opposed to an idealist.[/quote]

Why does he constantly give into self-defeating paranoia, then?

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I'm sorry, but I don't know what you're talking about. Riordan says that when he and his men were turned away at the border, they were 24 divisions of cavalry and that's how many men they were bringing with them.

He does not say they brought four legions that eventually became 24 divisions after time passed. A Legion is smaller then a division.[/quote]

Here, follow my timeline:

Initial force is assigned.
Massacre at Ostagar occurs before they reach Ferelden.
News reaches Orlais.
More troops are assigned to assist.
Chevaliers are turned back at the border.
Riordan is sent on fact-finding mission.
And so it goes.

I should also reiterate my earlier point that Thedas does not necessarily use the same military measurements as we do. Legion might be as high as 10,000 soliders in Orlais.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 05 février 2013 - 06:42 .

[thats1evildude]

Addai67 wrote...

I already said why.  She had reckoned on it being easy.  With Cailan dead and Loghain still alive (or after the Blight, with Ferelden restored under different leadership), the cost-benefit ratio changed.

And what I'm saying is that a military invasion wasn't actually intended. And what you're saying is that you agree with me.

So would you stop arguing with me, please?

Addai67 wrote...

As for certainty that a Blight is coming, not even the Wardens have this until late in the game.  When you get the camp attack after the 3rd treaty quest, a dialogue option with Alistair saying you saw the archdemon in a dream he says "me too, now we know for sure this is really a Blight."

I vaguely recall Alistair saying something like that, but I don't think it was at the camp ambush.

In any case, I don't think that should be taken to mean Alistair actually doubted whether or not this was a Blight.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 05 février 2013 - 06:19 .

[TEWR]

[quote]thats1evildude wrote...

Yes, yes, and it was that paranoia and mistrust that nearly doomed Ferelden. Which is what I've been saying all along.

Why do people argue with me when they're saying the same things as me?[/quote]

Because he's not wrong in distrusting Orlais so much. Loghain is not opposed to aid from other people. Just Orlesians. As you find out in DAII, Lord Harimann sent his soldiers to Ferelden to fight the Blight when other nobles wouldn't. The Free Marches and Ferelden both have a shared history: they were oppressed by Orlais.

[quote]
I guess I was only paying attention to all those people Loghain either murdered or enslaved to look deeper. [/quote]

Hah! I'll admit, the crimes themselves can make you just not want to examine why he did them. But there are reasons for them, not all of them so Jackie Chan WTF image.

[quote]

A guess, Ethereal. You're guessing that Loghain could have used the Circle to raise funds for the war effort. I don't even know if the Formarri operate in Ferelden, and even if they do, Loghain totally screwed the pooch.[/quote]

They do. Formari is a term that refers to the Tranquil and, as DAII shows, non-Tranquil that can enchant items. They have a presence in every Circle and there's even a shop run by a Tranquil, remember.

And no, he didn't screw the pooch if you're talking about a Circle alliance. Uldred and Wynne did. Wynne for talking about things she doesn't understand -- I mean for the love of the Paragons, she's a bleeding romanticist who feels that Loghain should've sacrificed thousands of men for a king that couldn't be saved -- and Uldred for resorting to a coup d'etat. Had Uldred not used blood magic and Demons, who knows what would've happened.

Hell, Wynne even admits that she regrets speaking up and that perhaps she should've left well enough alone, even if Loghain was a traitor in her eyes.

Also, this isn't a guess. It's actually pretty evident. Loghain wants the Circle on his side to help his war effort against the Darkspawn. Wars cost money. There's an entire fraternity dedicated to raising money and an entire group of people that churn out goods that money is spent on. The civil war drains the nation's coffers.

Pretty simple. Any decent military general could see that the Lucrosians and Formari are invaluable to a war effort.

[quote]Why are you so eager to undermine your own Warden's role in defeating the darkspawn in favour of a General Failure like Loghain? Let's examine a history of Loghain's choices:

Decision: Leave Cailan to be killed by the darkspawn.
Result: A succession crisis results in civil war and Loghain ultimately being overthrown in favour of Anora/Alistair.[/quote]

Cailan killed himself by his glory-hounding and how he ruined the plan Loghain set forth. He refused aid from Eamon, avoided Loghain whenever he wanted to talk strategy in the past, found it boring to begin with, went on and on about glory, and so on.

Loghain wanted Cailan to draw the Darkspawn to him and have the walls of Ostagar protect Cailan's forces' left and right flanks. An intelligent course of action would be to have a shield wall form up for rows and rows and create a phalanx, while archers stand behind them continuously firing magically enchanted arrows into the horde -- with the Mabari by their side in case the phalanx is breached.

Cailan does not do this.

He orders one volley of arrows to be fired, sends the Mabari out as fodder troops and wastes them, and orders his men to charge out into the valley exposing their flanks where they'd then be surrounded in a sea of Darkspawn on all of their flanks. The Darkspawn would move around to swallow them up. And you can see him using his sword in a way that says "Go men! Go into the valley!"



Furthermore, he relied far too heavily on the Grey Wardens' to win the day. He thought by virtue of their presence that they could wipe the floor with the Darkspawn in the battle. 

Lastly, he fought on the field of battle without an heir against the advice of Loghain, his general, and Eamon his uncle. Repeatedly so.

Cailan was a manchild playing at war and his death was his own doing and, I'd argue, in part the Wardens' fault as well. But Loghain is not to blame. The only smart thing Cailan did was ensuring Alistair went to the Tower to light the beacon and issuing that as the order of a king -- if you say "No, I can do it" he responds by saying "No, you both need to go.


[quote]Decision: Eliminate the Grey Wardens.
Result: Although Loghain wasn't aware of the Grey Wardens' role in ending the Blight, he still got rid of the only people in Ferelden capable of actually slaying the Archdemon, the leader of the darkspawn.[/quote]

I'd argue that they did that to themselves by having everyone except for their rookies fighting on the front lines in a battle that even Duncan felt wouldn't have made the difference -- as he fears in the opening narration that they're not capable of defeating the Darkspawn. And their rookies are going to be at the top of a Tower.

Duncan knows that even the best plans can go awry, but he's having every seasoned Warden fight on the front lines. A capable commander would know that if the battle is going to go amiss, that you should have some of your men elsewhere able to retreat so as to fight another day.

Again, it's what the Wardens did (historically) and didn't do (at the battle itself) that led to Loghain believing he couldn't trust them.

[quote]Decision: Poison Arl Eamon.
Result: Not only did it cause Connor's possession by a desire demon and the deaths of many soliders, but it erased any possibility that Eamon would side with Loghain.[/quote]

Eamon wouldn't have sided with him anyway because of his familial relation to Cailan. Teagan notes that if Eamon had been at the Landsmeet, Loghain wouldn't be able to do what he's doing. Not even Teagan, who was told by Loghain that he issued a tactical retreat and how Cailan was a glory-hounding fool, believes Loghain.


[quote]
Decision: Side with Arl Howe.
Result: Howe did so many terrible things that many nobles turned against Loghain as a result of his actions.[/quote]

After Ostagar, Howe has illegally assumed control of the greater part of the Coastlands and has placed his most trusted vassals and some of his relatives in seats of power, where they can present a major dilemma militarily if antagonized.

If Howe is antagonized, he could break off and have the men under his command fight against Loghain in his bid for more power. That would present a third front to fight on and the more fronts you have to fight on the less chance there is of a military victory.

And, sad as it is, Loghain felt the need to rely on Howe to make up for his shortcomings regarding politics. I imagine that Howe was making Loghain feel that Anora couldn't handle the politics because of two reasons:

1) Howe was saying "Cailan's death has grieved her awfully"
2) Howe was also saying "She's conflicted over whether Cailan died by your hand or not" and then using the scene where she questions Loghain as 'evidence'.

He's a manipulative, slimy, egotistical, power-hungry douchebag whom -- IMO -- is a political moron worse then Loghain, but it's not like Loghain could afford to antagonize him.

[quote]Decision: Attempt to ally with the Circle through Uldred.
Result: A demonic invasion that either nearly or totally wiped out one of Ferelden's best military resources.[/quote]

Yes, because that was totally Loghain's intention. Yes, because Loghain should've had some magical crystal ball saying that allying with Uldred was a bad move and if he did, X would happen.

[quote]Decision: Approve the hiring the Antivan Crows to hunt down the Warden.
Result: The Warden only managed to recruit the assassin sent after him and had the opportunity to work with the Crows to build support at the Landsmeet.[/quote]

The Crows themselves felt that Loghain was the best chance of defeating the Blight until Zevran's failed Death by Warden.

[quote]Decision: Bring Tevinter slavers into the Alienage.
Result: The Warden crashed the slavery ring and ended up acquiring evidence to be used against Loghain.[/quote]

Which he wouldn't have had to do if the Circle had allied with him.



[quote]Forget what he intended or what he knew — the record shows that virtually every one of his decisions ended in total failure and actually hurt his goal of protecting his country.[/quote]

That doesn't make him a bad general. It makes him a man that had the best intentions at heart, where some of those choices were prudent moves for a general, and that ultimately had **** hit the fan because of things that Loghain had no control over.


[quote]Save Ferelden? I'd sooner entrust the job to Zapp Brannigan.

...
OK, maybe not. [/quote]

Something tells me a DA parody with Zapp Brannigan would be hilarious.

[quote]

Uh, I saw him attack people who didn't bow to him. That was the whole point of Loghain's Push.

Who are all these lords he's arresting? Name names. Point out actual examples in the game of Loghain arresting people. And if they were being tortured to death by Howe, it doesn't count.[/quote]

Loghain's Push had soldiers attacking other soldiers. That's a Civil War battle, which is not the same as killing a lord.

Elysium Fic on Youtube has a series of DA videos where you hear how Loghain's arrested at least four Banns. They're from the tavernkeeps and those arrests prompted the people under said Banns' authority to... well... get pissed.

[quote]

No, I don't. But I do know that he allowed Howe to act with impunity, and that Howe was one of the worst monsters imaginable.[/quote]

For prudent reasons, given the ongoing hostilities that the Bannorn prioritized over the Darkspawn.

[quote]
But it's the only logical conclusion.[/quote]

Cailan is not a commander of men capable of going to the "logical conclusion".

[quote]

But no, never mind the darkspawn, they're rubbish and there's no way this could possibly be a Blight. Better reinforce our borders. DEM ORLESIANS WANT TO TAKE OUR JERBS! DURKA-DUR![/quote]

*Sigh*

You do yourself no credit, thats1evildude. Loghain did prioritize the Darkspawn. In the first Landsmeet of the game -- the one after Ostagar -- he wants to defeat the Darkspawn with a united Ferelden so as to preserve the image of them being strong even after the king's death.

Not many men were needed to even secure the border, as the only way into Ferelden from Orlais is through Gherlen's Pass -- a narrow stretch of mountain terrain.

It was only when the Bannorn decided to prioritize petty politics that he had to turn his attentions to them because you cannot fight a war on two fronts and win easily. Especially when you're going up against a horde of humanoid monsters that are, on their own, stronger then your average soldier. One Hurlock can best a dozen soldiers.

[quote]

And a lot of people didn't, including Duncan and Cailan.

It was pretty clear that Uldred was in on the plan and thus got away before the end of the battle. If he were not privy to those plans, his head might be on a pike right now.[/quote]

Or he would've escaped. Duncan was tossed aside by an Ogre which broke some bones and possibly led to internal bleeding and Cailan was crushed. Uldred and Wynne are Mages and have magic that's capable of cutting through the Darkspawn.

[quote]
In other countries, maybe. But in such large numbers that they outnumbered Ferelden's army? And in Ferelden, which had never truly seen a darkspawn invasion?[/quote]

Well, as I said, the belief was strengthened by the Darkspawn/Archie Archibold taking advantage of that belief by splitting up the horde into different groups.

[quote]

The man is obstinate in his beliefs. Even when he was told by a witch who could see the future that he'd end up betraying Maric, he refused to accept it.[/quote]

To be fair, Flemeth doesn't exactly come off as being particularly right in the head. If you saw an old, disheveled, and dirty woman, whom you've never met before, saying things about what's going to happen in the future... would you believe her? Don't include how Flemeth is a key figure. Put yourself in Loghain's shoes.

Besides, Maric once told Loghain to put the nation above the king if he was ever faced with such a situation. So whether it's truly a betrayal is up in the air.


[quote]I think he'd refuse to believe anything that meant capitulating to the Orlesians in even a small way.[/quote]

Believing the necessity of the Wardens does not mean you're capitulating to the Orlesians.

[quote]

Why does he constantly give into self-defeating paranoia, then?[/quote]

Because it's a real fear, as opposed to Cailan's and Wynne's idealistic notion of them finally being able to have peace.

[quote]

Here, follow my timeline:

Initial force is assigned.
Massacre at Ostagar occurs before they reach Ferelden.
News reaches Orlais.
More troops are assigned to assist.
Chevaliers are turned back at the border.
Riordan is sent on fact-finding mission.
And so it goes.[/quote]

But that's not what happens. Riordan says that they received no word about Ostagar's fate. He says that the King asked them to bring their support troops alongside the 200 Wardens. It goes like this.

Cailan and Loghain receive word of four legions of Chevaliers and 200 Wardens coming.
Ostagar occurs.
Riordan and company receive no word of Ostagar's aftermath.
Two dozen divisions of cavalry and the Wardens reach the border and are turned away.
That's when they first receive word of Ostagar's aftermath and the rumors surrounding it.
Riordan is sent to investigate.

[quote]I should also reiterate my earlier point that Thedas does not necessarily use the same military measurements as we do. "Legion" is a rather antiquated term from the days when militaries were far smaller.
[/quote]

There's nothing indicating that the use of military terminology in Thedas is at all different from our world's.

[TEWR]

And what I'm saying is that a military invasion wasn't actually intended. And what you're saying is that you agree with me.

Or that for seven years, Celene has been trying to seduce Alistair the same way to keep Orlais strong. Or that she's been dealing with nobles who have been increasingly fervent in their proclamations of "reclaiming their lost territory" and it only reaches Alistair's ears during Act 3 of Dragon Age II.

You're using Orlais' inaction during the aftermath as total evidence of them all being lovey-dovey. But you can't do that, because that's trying to say everyone in Orlais didn't have designs on taking back Ferelden.

In Orlais, the aristocracy believes they're entitled to rule based on some "Maker chosen" nonsense. And many of the Chevaliers have ties to the aristocracy/abuse their powers. And half of Orlais is intent on reconquering Ferelden.

So, I'd say that based on that, Orlesian nobles did have designs on taking Ferelden back, regardless of whether or not Celene wanted that. They were just using the Blight as a pretext for it, like they've done in Blights past when they ended up "helping" weakened nations.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 05 février 2013 - 08:02 .

[MisterJB]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Loghain wanted Cailan to draw the Darkspawn to him and have the walls of Ostagar protect Cailan's forces' left and right flanks. An intelligent course of action would be to have a shield wall form up for rows and rows and create a phalanx, while archers stand behind them continuously firing magically enchanted arrows into the horde -- with the Mabari by their side in case the phalanx is breached.

Cailan does not do this.

Well, to be fair, that's not so much an evidence of Cailan being an idiot; he is; but of game developers not being very knowledgeable in the matter of military tactics.
The Warden's battle plan in the Battle of Denerim also consisted of "CHARGE!". They don't even have horses!

Modifié par MisterJB, 05 février 2013 - 08:02 .

[TEWR]

MisterJB wrote...

Well, to be fair, that's not so much an evidence of Cailan being an idiot; he is; but of game developers not being very knowledgeable in the matter of military tactics.
The Warden's battle plan in the Battle of Denerim also consisted of "CHARGE!"

I don't disagree that Bioware knows jack **** about military tactics, but certainly given that is what Cailan did then it shows him as being an incompetent idiot when leading. And I'm not sure if for Cailan it was deliberate or just "This looks AWESOME". Did they do it to embody his idiocy? Or did they do it because "LOL cool..."

Either way, it ultimately defines Cailan's idiocy.

[Addai]

thats1evildude wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

I already said why.  She had reckoned on it being easy.  With Cailan dead and Loghain still alive (or after the Blight, with Ferelden restored under different leadership), the cost-benefit ratio changed.

And what I'm saying is that a military invasion wasn't actually intended. And what you're saying is that you agree with me.

So would you stop arguing with me, please?

Fine, if what you're saying is that a military occupation was intended.

I vaguely recall Alistair saying something like that, but I don't think it was at the camp ambush.

In any case, I don't think that should be taken to mean Alistair actually doubted whether or not this was a Blight.

It was after the camp ambush.  You are startled awake by the archdemon dream, then as you and Alistair are talking, the shrieks attack.  After that, the dialogue comes up to say "I had another dream about the archdemon" and that's when he gives that response.

Modifié par Addai67, 05 février 2013 - 09:18 .