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[Xandurpein]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

I spared him on one playthrough, and I never got the imptression hed regretted much of anything, except not seeing that my character was the answer ot defeating the blight. I got his approval pretty high, played out all possible convo options, ect. My guess is, is that he's too damned stubborn and pround to admit to anyone, most of all himself, that he was a complete idiot bastard.

If he regrets anything, he sure as hell ain;t saying, and everyting else considered, I'm wondering if he is capable of regret, seeing how he's in the "anything goes to save Ferelden" mentality, regardless of how many suffer.

I think that he is just one of those persons who has grown up with war, death and sacrifice his entire youth. Somewhere he just go desensitized to much suffering that would horrify us. He is so used to compartmentalize his mind and not let empathy affect his decision making, that it's second nature.

It's not at all strange for such people to be able to dissassociate themselves from those who suffer from their decision making, but still be able to feel empathy for those who are close to them. Think of all the generals of World War I who could feed tens of thousands of young men into mindless meatgrinder battles with no winner and then go home to be loving husbands and fathers.

[Whailor]

I saved him once, though that wasn't at first my idea. I let him live because I agreed with Riordian that more Grey Wardens are needed in Ferelden and while Loghain's a bastard, he's still a tough warrior. I didn't expect Alistair to flip out like he did, though, and outright run away, I assumed that if there will be a conflict between them then at least I can have a talk with Alistair and explain to him why he was needed. Oh well, didn't get that choice. So I did speak with Loghain lateron but it didn't made me to respect him in any way more. He assumed too much, didn't have problems with letting so many people die based just on his wrong assumption, didn't feel that bad about plunging the nation into civil war while the Blight is eating away at it. Even when he found out, gradually, that his assumptions were wrong, one after another, he still pushed on as he did. I sure as heck didn't let him take on the Archdemon either later, like he deserved to be called a "hero". So, yeah, each run through lateron off comes his head. Usually I let Alistair duel him, after all, I'm making him a king, let the new king deal with the usurper.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Xandurpein wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

I spared him on one playthrough, and I never got the imptression hed regretted much of anything, except not seeing that my character was the answer ot defeating the blight. I got his approval pretty high, played out all possible convo options, ect. My guess is, is that he's too damned stubborn and pround to admit to anyone, most of all himself, that he was a complete idiot bastard.

If he regrets anything, he sure as hell ain;t saying, and everyting else considered, I'm wondering if he is capable of regret, seeing how he's in the "anything goes to save Ferelden" mentality, regardless of how many suffer.

I think that he is just one of those persons who has grown up with war, death and sacrifice his entire youth. Somewhere he just go desensitized to much suffering that would horrify us. He is so used to compartmentalize his mind and not let empathy affect his decision making, that it's second nature.

It's not at all strange for such people to be able to dissassociate themselves from those who suffer from their decision making, but still be able to feel empathy for those who are close to them. Think of all the generals of World War I who could feed tens of thousands of young men into mindless meatgrinder battles with no winner and then go home to be loving husbands and fathers.

I do think you are correct. But I also get the impression pride has something to do with it. But in the end, for someone to truly be capable of redemption, they must really feel deep remorse, enough to motivate them to change.

I am not really a Loghain hater, mind you. I do think he was a seriously paranoid, corrupt, short sighted, and arrogant bastard. However, given his history, reasoning for his actions, and personal issues, it makes him a very complex and grey villian, as opposed to a cackling straight evil one. He, was in fact, a far more confusing adversary than was Howe for my Noble. His execution tends to be alot less traightforward than Howes.

In the end, though, he is a tragically damaged war vet that I feel necessary to kill, which makes it hard, given his history and contribution to Ferelden's independance. Whatever his motives, his ends jusitfying the means went too far, and my mercy/forgiveness meter broke.

[Xandurpein]

@Skadi_the_Evil_Elf

I think we feel pretty much the same about Loghain. I would however not call him corrupt in the sense I use the term. There is no way you could buy his loyalty with money.

Some playthroughs I let him live. I don't want to metagame the fact that I know Alistair will leave if I do make Loghain a Grey Warden and for some characters it does make sense to make him a Grey Warden, but it's never an easy decision either way. If I do let him live it's not so much about mercy, as about business really.

/Edit. There is also the whole thing about the prophecy that Loghain will betray Maric three times that makes me see a bit of Macbeth in him.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 09 janvier 2010 - 11:10 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Xandurpein wrote...

@Skadi_the_Evil_Elf

I think we feel pretty much the same about Loghain. I would however not call him corrupt in the sense I use the term. There is no way you could buy his loyalty with money.

Some playthroughs I let him live. I don't want to metagame the fact that I know Alistair will leave if I do make Loghain a Grey Warden and for some characters it does make sense to make him a Grey Warden, but it's never an easy decision either way. If I do let him live it's not so much about mercy, as about business really.

/Edit. There is also the whole thing about the prophecy that Loghain will betray Maric three times that makes me see a bit of Macbeth in him.

In that aspect, yes. When i say corrupt, I mean corrupted inevitably bu his own demons and darker side. he certainly isn't in the business of ruining his country for money by any stretch. He is a perfect example of the old adage: "The Road to Hell is paved with good intentions". In his mind, he was in the absolute right, and even when you defeat him, he refused to accept the wrongness of his methods, because in his mind, it might also mean perhaps his motivations were also suspect. he is the Paragon of willful, granite hardmoral stubborness.

In the codex when you give Loghain a gift of the maps, it says his life is definied by the borders within which he lives. Which make me think that in the end, he is ultimately a prisoner of borders he created for himself in his mind.

In game, I haven't had a true playthrough, just run throughs to explore the game and rack up achievments. But so far, from an RP perspective, I haven't played a character that saw any reason or benefit to spare him, and given their various backstopries, especially an elf, noble, or mage, there was more reason to kill him than spare him. So I do not think I shall spare him again, except maybe as a dwarf noble, who will have the least personal vendetta, and be a born pragmatist.

Macbeth? Yes. A very good comparison. A very tragic villian, Loghain. Interestingly, it wasn't conversations with him that really made me see another side to him, but pre-Landsmeet conversations with Anora.

[Xandurpein]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Macbeth? Yes. A very good comparison. A very tragic villian, Loghain. Interestingly, it wasn't conversations with him that really made me see another side to him, but pre-Landsmeet conversations with Anora.

Indeed. Talking to Anora is one of the best ways to learn more about Loghain. The story about the flower is so typically him on a good day. Romantic in a way, but still with the obsessiveness that holds the seeds to his downfall. The reverse is also true. Talking to Loghain is a very good way to learn more about Anora.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 09 janvier 2010 - 11:44 .

[Ulicus]

Yeah: particularly if you pursue the "lonely" dialog path in relation to her. His reflection on Cailan and Anora fighting ogres in the Denerim palace wine cellar is a lovely little anecdote, too.



Makes Ostagar all the more heartbreaking.

[_Aine_]

What was that quote from Sten, " "Either you have an enviable life, or a pitiable memory, to know nothing of regret." "



The writers gave a couple of moments of "humanity" to Loghain near the end of the game, quite cleverly i may add, to make the decision a bit more....layered than obvious.



personally, from what i could see, Loghain DID plan before Ostagar, for Ostagar. I think that perhaps though he may have been a loyal subject to the king, that he took his duty further than his loyalty or any friendship. He existed in his own interpretation of what should be, tactically and in respect to their place in the world politically. He seemed to feel that the idealism and fantasy-prone idealism of the King was bad for everyone, including the King so whether he felt he was better to lead or better to rule/make decisions is hard to say. he could act callously or coldly against even those who cared/trusted their lives to him, out of duty. How different are some of the Grey Wardens even in that regard, really? Just different sides of the fence perhaps.



It is always easy to hate a Monster that never shows you that they are human. Humanize the monster, give them some humility, romance or grace and many would see "corruption" as lack of judgement and crimes as lapses in clear thinking. Funny thing that.



"Happiness is fragile. Nothing can be built upon it that will last. Only duty endures."



one day soon I will side with him in the end to know him better. he just makes such an easy scapegoat its hard to do it the first time...

[Solica]

Did A.H. feel regret? Didn't he think he did everything with "best intent"?
I think the answers are no and yes, respectively. And so we can go on, with Stalin, Mao, etc. I'm also absolutely sure that they were "humans", with everything that entails. It does not matter one iota. None of it does.

Loghain had a lot of people murdered and tortured, his own countrymen, who he supposed to protect.
But his victims range much farther, everybody that died or suffered due to the advance by darkspawns after his betrayal at Ostagar. Everybody that will suffer, for maybe decades, due to wrecked societies in the wake of the darkspawn and the civil war.

To give this swine, Loghain, any chance at all to "redeem" himself, is to continue his crimes against innocents. If he becomes regarded as a hero, in any way, instead of being branded for the scum that he was, that would also spill over to implicate that he was "right", that all those who bravely opposed him and his vile crimes were "wrong". And many of those are still living. I can only think of that as a great injustice.
I doubt very much that any character I play will ever do that, just to save her/his own life. Loghain will die like a cockroach every time.
"Great general"? -Ha! The man is an incompetent disaster with abyssmal powers of judgement. If he ever had any military success, then it must have been just pure luck, or Maric, or the odds were so stacked it couldn't go any other way anyhow. Then the swine stole. or were given, undeserved credit.
Loghain is filth, and he will die such, and his name will be smeared such.
...in every game I play.  Me judgemental?  Oh, you bet!

[novaseeker]

Solica wrote...

Did A.H. feel regret? Didn't he think he did everything with "best intent"?
I think the answers are no and yes, respectively. And so we can go on, with Stalin, Mao, etc. I'm also absolutely sure that they were "humans", with everything that entails. It does not matter one iota. None of it does.

Loghain had a lot of people murdered and tortured, his own countrymen, who he supposed to protect.
But his victims range much farther, everybody that died or suffered due to the advance by darkspawns after his betrayal at Ostagar. Everybody that will suffer, for maybe decades, due to wrecked societies in the wake of the darkspawn and the civil war.

To give this swine, Loghain, any chance at all to "redeem" himself, is to continue his crimes against innocents. If he becomes regarded as a hero, in any way, instead of being branded for the scum that he was, that would also spill over to implicate that he was "right", that all those who bravely opposed him and his vile crimes were "wrong". And many of those are still living. I can only think of that as a great injustice.
I doubt very much that any character I play will ever do that, just to save her/his own life. Loghain will die like a cockroach every time.
"Great general"? -Ha! The man is an incompetent disaster with abyssmal powers of judgement. If he ever had any military success, then it must have been just pure luck, or Maric, or the odds were so stacked it couldn't go any other way anyhow. Then the swine stole. or were given, undeserved credit.
Loghain is filth, and he will die such, and his name will be smeared such.
...in every game I play.  Me judgemental?  Oh, you bet!

I agree.  Loghain's motives are no less "human" than other real world people who have made monstrous decisions.  Evil is evil.  Selling elves as slaves is objectively evil.  Lying about the grey wardens and seeking to exterminate them through bounties is evil.  Abandoning the king and blaming it on others is evil.  Supporting Howe's violent takeover of Highever is evil.  These are objective evils.  Were there "human" motives?  Of course.  But objectively evil acts almost always have human motives -- those motives do not alter the objective evil of the act one iota.

For me, it was quite satisfying when Alistair beheaded him.  Justice was served.

[ThePasserby]

In one of my playthroughs, I spared him and he did express regret for his attempts to thwart my PC's goal to unite the land against the Blight. He said that just as he was about to make the killing blow.

[Ulicus]

novaseeker wrote...

Evil is evil.  Selling elves as slaves is objectively evil.  Lying about the grey wardens and seeking to exterminate them through bounties is evil.  Abandoning the king and blaming it on others is evil.  Supporting Howe's violent takeover of Highever is evil.  These are objective evils.  Were there "human" motives?  Of course.  But objectively evil acts almost always have human motives -- those motives do not alter the objective evil of the act one iota.

Righto. Any evidence beyond your own personal convictions, there? 'Cause, just saying, if you're gonna invoke universal principles you've got a pretty hefty burden of proof.  "This = Evil", repeated ad nauseum isn't an argument -- it's just empty rhetoric.

A lot of the things Loghain did during the game were utterly reprehensible, sure, but objectively "evil"? That's ridiculous, frankly. This isn't Dungeons and Dragons. At the very most, you can say that your worldview labels him as evil, and even then, it's not particularly helpful as a word.

[Saryala]

 
Wow, frankly I am a bit surprised that even those who spared him seem to have gotten the impression that he didn't really regret anything

In my first playthrough I spared his life - I had some form of vengeance already when I got rid of Howe, and executing Loghain because he was eeeeevil, expecially after Riordan's suggestion, seemed quite evil too. If this meant that Alistair would leave and go be depressed somewhere else during the final battle, fine, we would "have fun ending the Blight" without him (don't get me wrong, I did like Alistair up to that point, a lot).
But when in camp Loghain said that all the bad things he wished hadn't happened were undoubtedly his fault, he seemed convinced of that.

And later, when we knew someone had to die to kill the Archdemon and he said he should be the one taking the final blow because he had "much to atone for", I find it difficult to believe he wasn't sincere and didn't realize he had been wrong.

He asks you to let him make amends for what he has done, says that he was mistaken and wants to make up for it... how can you say he is too proud and too stubborn to admit he was wrong? He does admit it. And it really doesn't look like his is "one last grab for glory" (as you can tell him). For what matters, he sounds sincere as well.
And now, after talking to him and after listening to his conversations with the rest of the party, I can't help but like him more, so if I almost "accidentally" decided not to execute him the first time, when I had absolutely no reason to like him, I don't think I will now.

Modifié par Saryala, 10 janvier 2010 - 09:53 .

[philippe willaume]

Well I spared him and I think he does not regret anything other that his strategy was wrong and that it did not work.

At the end of the day he did not believe that it was a full blight and that the Orlesain where going to take that chance to re-invade.

As he says in a dialogue, hindsight is the mother of all wisdom.



That being said for a character that willingly takes the less of two evils for that greater good is he quite human.



phil

[AmstradHero]

I see both sides of the argument here.  And that's the beauty of how BioWare delivered this scene, because they really can make you think either way.  Did Loghain do some truly horrible things? Yes.  He left Cailan to die, he let Howe butcher his way to power, he allowed slavery to run rampant, (heck, he even condoned it) and he hired an assassin to kill me.

I thought Loghain was a despicable and short-sighted tyrant.  I didn't think he was ever going to give up until either he or I were dead.  I defeated him in single combat, and then waited.  I'd arranged for Alistair and Anora to marry, and I was damned if I was going to let Loghain get away with what he'd done.  But... then, my paragon of a Grey Warden had a change of heart as Loghain kneeled sounding repentant.  With Anora begging for his life, I felt I wanted to stay my blade.  But if I spared him, it would tear Alistair apart, and Ferelden's future would not be secured with a King and Queen.

I had little choice but to do the deed and run Loghain through myself.  I almost regretted having to kill such a great general, but the bad deeds he had done, and abandoning Ostagar to allow both his King and the leader of the Grey Wardens to die was inexecusable.  As he did what he felt he had to for Ferelden's future, so did the Grey Warden Amorlen Cousland.

[Micon2]

It surprised me that the an option to save Loghain was written in, after that 'evil' shot of him in Ostager he has to die and he has, mostly at Alastair's hand just wish I could put doublecrossing **** Anora on Howe's rack for a time. Her excuses are just ......not good enough and Who is going to surrender to loghains troops at her rescue,, come on.

[MutantSpleen]

I surrendered to Ser Cautherin at her rescue. There was no need to turn the place into a blood bath for my own ego. Possibly risking the life of the queen and further damning the Grey Warden's name.

To me Loghain seemed to regret his actions.  For a man like him to say he made "tactical errors" is really his way of admitting he was wrong. 

Modifié par MutantSpleen, 13 janvier 2010 - 04:05 .

[Sabriana]

Loghain already is a hero in the eyes of many Fereldans. He is one of the major movers and shakers that freed the country from Orlesian oppression, if not *the* mover and shaker. He swore an oath to see to it that Ferelden remains free.

He does not think he did wrong in his motivations, but he does know that everything spiralled out of control. But once he committed himself to the path he took, there was no turning back in his eyes. Alea jacta est, or to put it in modern terms, he made his bed and then he had no choice but to lay in it.

[Wynne]

Xandurpein wrote...

But what really gives me a lump in my throat is when you kill him yourself and he tells Anora how daughters are always six years old in the eyes of their fathers. To close to home as I'm a father myself, I guess.

I'm a daughter, and it hit me pretty damned hard, too. I got seriously choked up. That was one of the most emotionally affecting lines in the entire game.