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[Knight of Dane]

EntropicAngel wrote...

 The Witcher is an RPG game series made by a Polish company named CDProject. It is based off of a book series, I believe titled the same. It has gained recent notoriety.


I'm a little wary of making this topic, as I know how...rabid our TW fans are. However, I think we can put our feelings aside and look at this: what can Dragon Age learn from the Witcher? I want to list a couple of things that stood out to me in the Witcher, from which DA could learn.

1. Plot
In the first Witcher game (some spoilers here), the game starts out with a mysterious attack by an unknown mage and a known but not common group of attackers. The game's main plot involves Geralt chasing down leads to track down both the mercenary group that attacked, and the unknown mage.
This is very, very different from the standard Bioware plot--Collect X allies by doing favors for them, and then run to a central place to defend against attack, and, while you're at it, kill the big bad. It had a far more..."mystery" feel to it, something that I greatly liked.
In addition, there are subplots that have this theme. One in particular: Geralt has acquired a small group of people he works with, when he finds out that one of them must be a mole. There is a quest that involves Geralt going to each of them and trying to find out if they are the traitor. An investigative type of plot. I liked it a lot, personally, and would love to see more of this in DA.
2. NPCs
This is a lighter one. The DA series has had a disproportionately low number of NPCs in common areas like towns--and, upon thought, this is also a problem Mass Effect has had. The Witcher had no such problem. There were many, many NPCs, walking about and talking.
One reason I suspect Bioware has less is because their NPCs are very scripted: they either don't move at all, and just make hand gestures, or walk a very obvious path that's reminiscent of old stealth games. The Witcher does not do this--they have fairly random walking patterns. This makes it more chaotic, sure--but it allows you to have more activity wihout doing as much work as you would trying to script their actions down to their hand movements.

3. Maps

I wasn't sure how to descibe this one, initially. At first I thought about going with the open-world nature of them, with the wilderness areas. But then I got to thinking about them, and what made them stand out. What makes them stand out, to me, is that it's a 3D environment, not just a backdrop. Dragon Age Origins had the Brecilian Forest, with large clearings surrounded and separated by a backdrop of trees, rivers, etc. DA ][ didn't have any forest areas, but the few areas where there ARE things like trees and water, the allowable path is clearly demarcated from them.

In The Witcher, the player moves freely through the forest. You are not restricted to a well-beaten path. The walls are on the objects themselves, not invisible at the edge of the path to prevent you from going further.

Thinking about this idea, it isn't just in the forest--the cities allow you more freedom, too.

[and as an aside, another point: the cities. The Witcher (the first game) only has one real city to speak of, that I know of, but the buildings feel organic and authentic. It isn't a giant wall of buildings: they are different sizes, or will have a small courtyard here and there.]

There is a mild aspect of three dimensions in the sense of levels, between street heights, or say at a beach where the height drops to the water but a bridge goes over this area.

The big thing for this one, though, for me, was the trees and the fact that you aren't restricted to the paths. It isn't a toy box with lots of engaging painting on the sides. It's a box with all of the pieces inside the box with you.


I open this up to you folks: what do you think Dragon Age could learn (that would benefit it) from The Witcher?

1) Is exactly the same as Mass Effect 1.
    Saren Attacks humans, shepard finds out and that he's with the geth etc.

[Windninja47]

I haven't played the Witcher so I can't really comment. The only thing I really do know about it is that it has no character creator and also has nudity. I personally would prefer if the DA series kept the CC and lack of nudity.

[Xilizhra]

This is going to be painful, rest assured.

Personally, I'd rather say what CDProjkect could learn from Dragon Age, such as "let us make our own characters" and "there are perspectives that exist aside from the straight male one."

[Johnny Shepard]

Well, sexy sexscenes, for starters. And daring to show nudity. The whole "everybody has underwere on them when they have sex" thing is just silly and makes the sexscenes silly.
Why are everybody in America so afraid of nudity and sex?

[LinksOcarina]

Honestly, nothing.

The Witcher does it's own thing and has its own pitfalls and problems that Dragon Age doesn't have, despite both occupying the "dark fantasy" zeitgeist at this point.

I say let them continue that way.

[Windninja47]

Johnny Shepard wrote...

Well, sexy sexscenes, for starters. And daring to show nudity. The whole "everybody has underwere on them when they have sex" thing is just silly and makes the sexscenes silly.
Why are everybody in America so afraid of nudity and sex?

I know some people find the whole 'fade to black' thing dumb, and also that they wear their underwear, but I really prefer it that way. I think I'd feel uncomfortable if there were to be Witcher-style sex scenes in dragon age. It's not about being afraid of nudity, I'd just feel uncomfortable, and this would lessen my enjoyment of the game as a whole.

Modifié par Windninja47, 01 février 2013 - 05:38 .

[Wompoo]

LinksOcarina wrote...

Honestly, nothing.

The Witcher does it's own thing and has its own pitfalls and problems that Dragon Age doesn't have, despite both occupying the "dark fantasy" zeitgeist at this point.

I say let them continue that way.

This

I like both actually for different reasons.  As for nudity, big deal, does not bother me, as I can see more skin at a beach (even if some of them do look like beached whales). The whitcher maps remind me more of NWN actually. If BW was to do anything, eh, I guess it would be to stop dumbing the game down and nickle diming players with armour packs that should of been the game to begin with... I like to collect flowers, leave and body parts for making potions (no BW I don't want to go to a shop and do auto create)... I like exploring and having that armour drop (BG2 had great itemisation, BW games have become poor in that department to a point of being just plain exploiting the demand).

Modifié par Wompoo, 01 février 2013 - 05:52 .

[Fast Jimmy]

I agree that the plot of trying to uncover the mystery of what was going on with the attack (as well as the enigma of Geralt's own past) is more than just the "find the allies/assets, then storm the castle" format. To counter that though, it sounds like from the leak, DA:I might be a form of that, where we are trying to find out who attacked the peace summit and where the demon attacks are coming from, resorting in gathering allies to save the day. Which sounds like it could be a combination of DA:O, The Witcher and Oblivion's rough story structure.

In regards to NPCs, fluid movement and walking around didn't always strike me as essential. A shopowner will, oddly enough, spend most of their time at their shop. An official will spend most of their time at their office. A guard will spend most of their time either in their area of patrol or the barracks. Having schedules where we have to hunt people down because they go to X pub at Y time of day or else we have to break into their house to give them their requested quest trinket isn't a high point of gaming. Wouldn't be against it, but not necessarily for it. I'd rather their be more NPCs with deeper conversation. Whether that's just about their lives, backgrounds or homelands, and nothing quest related, is fine (or even better). Beats having everything of lore interest confined to the Codex.

I agree 100% with the maps. Bioware is often accused of having corridor level design, always has been. Having more organic boundaries, not just set paths, would be a huge help. I'm not sure if this was tied to their level creation tools with the Lyrium engine, but I hope they will have more options with Frostbite2.

[Allan Schumacher]

Experimenting with branching narrative would be the biggest (and probably most challenging) one that I would like to see. This is more from the second game obviously.

I have some reservations with the way it was executed from a narrative perspective (and just minor ones), but the concept itself I find fascinating.

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

Everything except character creation and forced nude romance scenes.

[Iosev]

I may be in the minority, but I think that The Witcher 2 and Mass Effect 2 have some similarities that people don't seem to bring up. For example, both tuned away from the experimental combat of their predecessors and shifted towards more traditional, action-oriented gameplay. Additionally, both games went with a more cinematic route with their dialogue scenes, which is especially noticeable with TW2 (Mass Effect was more cinematic to begin with).

However, I would love to see Bioware implement more branching story alteration (like the second chapter of TW2).  I would also like to see weather effects in a DA title, because it makes the game world seem more dynamic and alive.

Modifié par arcelonious, 01 février 2013 - 06:24 .

[thebigbad1013]

Very little, in my honest opinion. I own both Witcher games and I consider both to be largely good games, though they too have their flaws. That being said, to me, the Witcher franchise doesn't hold a candle to the Dragon Age franchise, hence my reply.

[Gileadan]

 I realize that a lot of things come down to pure taste and preference, but here we go anyway. I'l leave out utterly subjective stuff like story and characters.

Side quests:  In the Witcher, side quests often involve characters that are either part of the main plot, or at least loosely connected to it, or somehow interesting/unusual in their own way, for example Kalkstein, Carmen and Vincent, the fisstech-addicted city guard and so on, so even during side quests you get to interact with interesting people. Dragon Age's side quests seem to be limited to involving rather faceless NPCs whose main purpose of existence seems to be said side quests, like the Chanter's Board, the Irregulars and the Collective in Origins, or, even worse, the nobodies that only spawned to accept DA2's fetch quests without as much as a real conversation. The Witcher's side quests almost all served to strengthen story and narrative, as opposed to being simple, quick gold and XP-grabs in DA.  

(Yes, I know the Witcher had the contract board, but even the contracts were often given by main plot characters).

Day/night cycles: The world of the Witcher felt much more alive to me simply because I could watch the sun rise and set. There were people running for shelter when it started to rain. Watching the sun set in Vizima was gorgeous even in the older first game. Manually selecting day/night in DA2 gave me a unwanted "theme-park" feeling.

Overall, these things served to improve my immersion in the world of the Witcher, and I'd love to see something similar in Dragon Age.
Oh, and I can't leave without mentioning this:  

Post launch support: Games and preferences aside, this is where CDP:R reigns unchallenged. Their support for their products is nothing but stellar, from regular patches to a massive free enhanced edition with additional quests and even purely cosmetic improvements like patching in frigging livestock in Lobinden.  I found that really impressive customer service.

Modifié par Gileadan, 01 février 2013 - 06:24 .

[slimgrin]

I think the two biggest things Bioware would benefit from doing more of is grey morality and open level design, neither of which are exclusive to The Witcher. Taking inspiration from Skyrim was the right move. Taking inspiration from The Witcher is more problematic since DA is the polar opposite.

Modifié par slimgrin, 01 février 2013 - 06:22 .

[Dasher1010]

I'd say that faction quests that add replayability and more open levels are the best things to take from TW2.

[Dave of Canada]

Armor design, weapon design, grey morality and branching narrative.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 01 février 2013 - 06:30 .

[Scarlet Rabbi]

Absolutely nothing.

Dragon Age is far superior to either Witcher game.

[Xewaka]

Allan Schumacher wrote...
Experimenting with branching narrative would be the biggest (and probably most challenging) one that I would like to see. This is more from the second game obviously.
I have some reservations with the way it was executed from a narrative perspective (and just minor ones), but the concept itself I find fascinating.

While I'd love to see the branching storytelling taking place as well, it does seem (from an outsider perspective) to be essentially incompatible with save imports down the line.

[Nerdage]

One thing I did like in the first Witcher was how long you'd have to spend in each area and how much there was to explore. If DA could do that instead of needing so many one-time-use areas (which both games needed to recycle to some degree), and make environments which are interesting and really worth exploring instead of just big, empty corridors, that'd be nice.

Other than that, nothing in TW really bowled me over, certainly nothing I thought was better than anything DA was already doing (I've only played about 30 minutes into the second one, and that was quite a long time ago now).

Modifié par nerdage, 01 février 2013 - 06:44 .

[Allan Schumacher]

Xewaka wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...
Experimenting with branching narrative would be the biggest (and probably most challenging) one that I would like to see. This is more from the second game obviously.
I have some reservations with the way it was executed from a narrative perspective (and just minor ones), but the concept itself I find fascinating.

While I'd love to see the branching storytelling taking place as well, it does seem (from an outsider perspective) to be essentially incompatible with save imports down the line.

True to an extent.

Although The Witcher 2 still reconciles its plot in the final chapter, you just know different things and so forth depending on who you side with in Chapter 1.

It'd depend on what we do for story continuation for characters between games.

[Beerfish]

1) Don't force your player to be a certain persona with a certain look.
2) Don't do anything that resembles the Witchers combat.
3) Sex cards are not a great idea.