The Witcher is an RPG game series made by a Polish company named CDProject. It is based off of a book series, I believe titled the same. It has gained recent notoriety.
I'm a little wary of making this topic, as I know how...rabid our TW fans are. However, I think we can put our feelings aside and look at this: what can Dragon Age learn from the Witcher? I want to list a couple of things that stood out to me in the Witcher, from which DA could learn.
1. Plot
In the first Witcher game (some spoilers here), the game starts out with a mysterious attack by an unknown mage and a known but not common group of attackers. The game's main plot involves Geralt chasing down leads to track down both the mercenary group that attacked, and the unknown mage.
This is very, very different from the standard Bioware plot--Collect X allies by doing favors for them, and then run to a central place to defend against attack, and, while you're at it, kill the big bad. It had a far more..."mystery" feel to it, something that I greatly liked.
In addition, there are subplots that have this theme. One in particular: Geralt has acquired a small group of people he works with, when he finds out that one of them must be a mole. There is a quest that involves Geralt going to each of them and trying to find out if they are the traitor. An investigative type of plot. I liked it a lot, personally, and would love to see more of this in DA.
2. NPCs
This is a lighter one. The DA series has had a disproportionately low number of NPCs in common areas like towns--and, upon thought, this is also a problem Mass Effect has had. The Witcher had no such problem. There were many, many NPCs, walking about and talking.
One reason I suspect Bioware has less is because their NPCs are very scripted: they either don't move at all, and just make hand gestures, or walk a very obvious path that's reminiscent of old stealth games. The Witcher does not do this--they have fairly random walking patterns. This makes it more chaotic, sure--but it allows you to have more activity wihout doing as much work as you would trying to script their actions down to their hand movements.
3. Maps
I wasn't sure how to descibe this one, initially. At first I thought about going with the open-world nature of them, with the wilderness areas. But then I got to thinking about them, and what made them stand out. What makes them stand out, to me, is that it's a 3D environment, not just a backdrop. Dragon Age Origins had the Brecilian Forest, with large clearings surrounded and separated by a backdrop of trees, rivers, etc. DA ][ didn't have any forest areas, but the few areas where there ARE things like trees and water, the allowable path is clearly demarcated from them.
In The Witcher, the player moves freely through the forest. You are not restricted to a well-beaten path. The walls are on the objects themselves, not invisible at the edge of the path to prevent you from going further.
Thinking about this idea, it isn't just in the forest--the cities allow you more freedom, too.
[and as an aside, another point: the cities. The Witcher (the first game) only has one real city to speak of, that I know of, but the buildings feel organic and authentic. It isn't a giant wall of buildings: they are different sizes, or will have a small courtyard here and there.]
There is a mild aspect of three dimensions in the sense of levels, between street heights, or say at a beach where the height drops to the water but a bridge goes over this area.
The big thing for this one, though, for me, was the trees and the fact that you aren't restricted to the paths. It isn't a toy box with lots of engaging painting on the sides. It's a box with all of the pieces inside the box with you.
I open this up to you folks: what do you think Dragon Age could learn (that would benefit it) from The Witcher?
What Can Dragon Age Learn From The Witcher?
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Guest_EntropicAngel_*
, févr. 01 2013 05:23
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#2
Posté 01 février 2013 - 05:59
Allan Schumacher
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Experimenting with branching narrative would be the biggest (and probably most challenging) one that I would like to see. This is more from the second game obviously.
I have some reservations with the way it was executed from a narrative perspective (and just minor ones), but the concept itself I find fascinating.
I have some reservations with the way it was executed from a narrative perspective (and just minor ones), but the concept itself I find fascinating.
#3
Posté 01 février 2013 - 06:46
Allan Schumacher
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Xewaka wrote...
While I'd love to see the branching storytelling taking place as well, it does seem (from an outsider perspective) to be essentially incompatible with save imports down the line.Allan Schumacher wrote...
Experimenting with branching narrative would be the biggest (and probably most challenging) one that I would like to see. This is more from the second game obviously.
I have some reservations with the way it was executed from a narrative perspective (and just minor ones), but the concept itself I find fascinating.
True to an extent.
Although The Witcher 2 still reconciles its plot in the final chapter, you just know different things and so forth depending on who you side with in Chapter 1.
It'd depend on what we do for story continuation for characters between games.
#4
Posté 01 février 2013 - 10:39
Allan Schumacher
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Lets reign this back in from the economics for how we should target the game (which is probably a violation of some new bylaws people were suggesting 
), as well as what constitutes a "real" game (because that just makes me irritable), and discuss what things people liked about The Witcher that they think would be an improvement in DA3.
), as well as what constitutes a "real" game (because that just makes me irritable), and discuss what things people liked about The Witcher that they think would be an improvement in DA3.
#5
Posté 02 février 2013 - 01:18
Allan Schumacher
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The branching narrative idea more or less relies on the idea that the story truly diverges: tone, missions, context, all distinct from eachother. The Witcher 2 does this, and does this well, but it's a major duplication of resources for parallel story lines when you recreate every aspect of the game.
It is more work, yes. In order to do it, we'd likely have to sacrifice some depth for breadth.
I guess imagine if there was 30-40 hours of unique content, but we ended up delivering with a branch that basically has 2 mostly unique 15-20 hours branches.
It'd make the game shorter which does have some consequences: For those that feel a story needs the length in order to properly flesh things out, this is still a negative. For those that feel our games are too long, this may be a positive. For those that want total value of the game and typically replay it, there's still 30-40 hours of fresh gameplay. Those that don't typically replay but still typically finish, however, will have less content.
#6
Posté 02 février 2013 - 03:05
Allan Schumacher
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I'd want a large amount of divergence before I'm convinved to replay a game based on story related reasons. Thinking Fallout 1/2/new vegas, alpha protocol/witcher 2 levels.
The games you list don't actually have much genuine divergence at all. The Fallout games are (mostly) nonlinear, as is Alpha Protocol.
Alpha Protocol, in particular, has very good reactivity. The Witcher is actually divergent, in that you get separate, mutually exclusive content, based on decisions that you make.
#7
Posté 02 février 2013 - 03:10
Allan Schumacher
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addiction21 wrote...
As opposed to how with DA2 we all knew well in advance it was going to be voiced.
Why then oh why do we hear that complaint on the regular?
While I understand your point (and appreciate that you're looking to defend BioWare), AngryFrozenOne's response was fair enough.
I'd prefer to try to keep this discussion geared towards something more constructive than trying to take along a different path.
There may very well be a double standard that some people have, but within the context of the points I made, the response was an interesting perspective. I am actually not sure if I necessarily agree that the hypothesis she put forth is actually the case, but it's still a fair point.
#8
Posté 02 février 2013 - 05:26
Allan Schumacher
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Endings that are wildly divergent depending on choice like in the above-mentioned Fallout games do offer a lot of divergence in the events that happen... it just so happens that they happen after the game is over.
Fair. In retrospect my original position was stated under the assumption of within the game (prior to the end), and that may not have remained clear.
Epilogue divergence is much easier to do, and has been done a lot. I'm less interested in that (simply because I have seen it done and know what it provides), and it's not something that I think is necessarily applicable to the discussion of what Dragon Age could learn from The Witcher.
Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 02 février 2013 - 05:26 .
#9
Posté 02 février 2013 - 05:29
Allan Schumacher
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Deleted some posts just to keep some of the off topic discussion straight. I basically made the cutoff of my previous post as the place to draw the line (in case anyone is curious). Feel free to continue the discussion via personal messages.
Just want to keep the thread a bit clean and allow people to discuss the pros and cons of the respective content in each game.
Thanks.
Just want to keep the thread a bit clean and allow people to discuss the pros and cons of the respective content in each game.
Thanks.
Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 02 février 2013 - 05:29 .
#10
Posté 02 février 2013 - 05:30
Allan Schumacher
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duckley wrote...
The Witcher and The Witcher 2 were both great games IMO. I loved the story and the characters of Geralt and Triss. Having said that, I dont think DA has to borrow anything from The Witcher. Both games stand on there own.
This is a good point. Simply because the games are different doesn't mean that they need to start borrowing parts from one another.
Having said that, there's certainly advantages in assessing our own games, as well as the others in the market space.
#11
Posté 02 février 2013 - 06:14
Allan Schumacher
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As for the straight male perspective Geralt is a straight male so I have no idea why the Witcher series should offer a perspective other than that?
I think it's difficult to fully understand if you happen to be a heterosexual male.
I think the only way to really do so is to try imagining The Witcher as a game where Geralt is a homosexual, and there are cards that can be acquired through Geralt's various homosexual encounters, or with the the second one adding in the nudity and a more explicit depiction of Geralt's sexual nature.
I agree with the notion that CDProjekt is free to create any game they wish (excusing the fact that Geralt comes from a set of books and isn't an original character in the game), but just as well I can imagine that some may have found it more enjoyable if they had that level of freedom in their in game relationships.
#12
Posté 02 février 2013 - 06:23
Allan Schumacher
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I don't think the risk there is as significant as people have thought. While a lot of players won't play more than once, a lot don't finish at all. The latter group would be better served, or at least not hurt, by shorter games.
This is where my interest in the topic comes as well. I actually want to discuss it with some of those in design that might have better insights (it's just a hypothesis for me at the moment, mostly fueled by my own interests as a gamer).
I'm also not convinced that length is a great metric anyway. An awful lot of my gameplay hours in TW1, which I'm replaying now, involve running around maps I already know and fighting off waves of monsters I have handled before. That damn swamp comes to mind, mostly because pathing there isn't obvious and I keep running into the edge of the walkmesh.
I agree that length is overstated. 60 hours of amazingly awesome content is usually better than 40 hours of amazingly awesome content, but Portal is better than 60 hours of poor content.
By the same account, I understand some appreciate length because gaming is as much a time sink, and for the purchase they are hoping to remain occupied for some duration of time.
#13
Posté 05 février 2013 - 08:03
Allan Schumacher
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There are very few instances where you're railroaded into sex scenes.
And that's acceptable? I really did not like Triss' actions after Geralt was wounded at the tower. It actually made me feel uncomfortable and not in that good way.
I think people forget the cards are optional.
Their mere existence is a blight on the the game as far as I'm concerned. I loathe what they represent. If there's one thing I have learned from the Witcher, is to not appeal to a gamer's compulsion by hiding content, however trivial, behind a dehumanizing and objectification of women.
Did you play the games? The sorceresses are powerful women, and Saskia (while I hate her armor model) is a good character, a revolutionary war leader.
The Witcher 2 is so many light years improved over the first game in their presentation of women the scale cannot be measured.
Again, if it's not for you, that's one thing. But this idea that these are men's games and women need not apply is silliness.
Gaming in general has had serious issues with how women are depicted. There have been improvements in some regards, but the first Witcher game was definitely geared towards a particular demographic. The second one less so.
#14
Posté 06 février 2013 - 12:08
Allan Schumacher
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This thread has long evolved passed a discussion about The Witcher games and Dragon Age.
Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 06 février 2013 - 12:09 .
