370 réponses à ce sujet

[Addai]

EntropicAngel wrote...

I'm going to have to disagree with you here, Addai. I won't post them here, and I won't link them, because I don't think that's allowed either, but Abigail? The girl at the inn (the one with the chicken in her hand)? The rich townswoman (the one leaning over)? I could go on, but I don't really think they can be justified.

Abigail and the vampire were the ones I was talking about as being in poor taste.

I'm not going to argue about it anymore, though, because it's a moot issue and the general "Witcher games are sexist" argument is mostly hot air about nothing.

[CronoDragoon]

EntropicAngel wrote...

I restrospect, I should have known.

I dunno, I was just assuming our Witcher fans would provide some genuinely interesting viewpoints on what DA could gain from a look at TW.

Here's one: get rid of points-based rating systems for party members. I don't want to be spending character dialogues trying to number crunch. Instead of basing character reactions towards you on friendship/rivalry systems, have their like/dislike of you be a sort of branching system. For example:

If you side with the elves, then Iorveth obviously has a different opinion of you than if you side with the humans. But if you side with the elves AND save Saskia, then Iorveth is practically worshipping at your feet. Have a character's stance towards you be determined by certain dialogue or moral choices - more of a gated system - rather than an amassing of individual points spread across all your actions.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 05 février 2013 - 06:02 .

[Renmiri1]

Xiomara wrote...

We've all experienced it? Well...sometimes I wonder. Usually after reading an "implement my sexual fetish plz Biower" thread.

Do you even know what a sexual fetish is ?

Sexual fetishism[/b], or erotic fetishism[/b], is the sexual arousal a person receives from a physical object, or from a specific situation. The object or situation of interest is called the fetish[/b]; the person who has a fetish[/i] for that object/situation is a fetishist[/b].[1] A sexual fetish may be regarded as an enhancing element to a romantic/sexual relationship "achieved in ordinary ways (e.g. having the partner wear a particular garment)" or as a mental disorder/disorder of sexual preference if it causes significant psychosocial distress for the person or has detrimental effects on important areas of their life.[2] 

Heterosexual or homosexual sex or romance is not a fetish. Is part of life, as is eating, sleeping or breathing. I don't know if this is news to you but your parents did have sex at least once, you being the proof of the deed.

Seriously, people who view sex as dirty are the ones needing help IMHO. 

[Andhaira]

They're are several things that BiowarEA could learn from The Witcher Series™ and use to make DAIII even better.

The "sex" cards are one of them. It adds to the depth of relationships, to carry a small piece of your beloved ones with you as you travel around, or if said love interests dies you could have scenes where your remembering foundly of you're LI, maybe even have you're main character cry. Still, I'm farly certain BiowarEA would make said cards much better than SeeDProject(spelling??), avoiding the unnecessary and inherent sexism displayed on the TW series (maybe even add some male cards? I don't see why not! )

Other things... uhmm... well, TW series also featured several small details that added to the immersion, such as small acts like this one:



It's mundane yet adds so much to the game, because it makes your LI more human. Give females armpit hair or other details instead of making everyone look like a top model, geez! Add chubby npcs or even add the option of turning your own character into a chubbyjocks (hey, we need love as well!). You know, TW had different phenotypes, it made characters more believable.

Theirs much more that BiowarEA could learn from TWitcher, and Im fairly certain it could be made better by the Bioteam (<3).

[CronoDragoon]

Andhaira wrote...

The "sex" cards are one of them. It adds to the depth of relationships, to carry a small piece of your beloved ones with you as you travel around, or if said love interests dies you could have scenes where your remembering foundly of you're LI, maybe even have you're main character cry. Still, I'm farly certain BiowarEA would make said cards much better than SeeDProject(spelling??), avoiding the unnecessary and inherent sexism displayed on the TW series (maybe even add some male cards? I don't see why not! )

I take it by your explanation you're looking for something more along the lines of Tali's photograph and less along the lines of "sex cards." In other words, character mementos.

[Andhaira]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Andhaira wrote...

The "sex" cards are one of them. It adds to the depth of relationships, to carry a small piece of your beloved ones with you as you travel around, or if said love interests dies you could have scenes where your remembering foundly of you're LI, maybe even have you're main character cry. Still, I'm farly certain BiowarEA would make said cards much better than SeeDProject(spelling??), avoiding the unnecessary and inherent sexism displayed on the TW series (maybe even add some male cards? I don't see why not! )

I take it by your explanation you're looking for something more along the lines of Tali's photograph and less along the lines of "sex cards." In other words, character mementos.

Yes! More liek this.

[Addai]

CronoDragoon wrote...

So long as the writer provides some means of establishing that such sexism/racism is wrong then no, it's not a bad thing. While the Witcher 1 failed to do this, the Witcher 2 does a much better job, specifically with Saskia's character which not only subverts the gender expectation within the world, but then also goes on to subvert the player's expectation about subverting gender roles by revealing that she's not actually human at all!

Now listen here.  TW1 is my favorite of the series and I'm not going to stand for it being trashed.  <_<  Abigail's plot line is all about a woman at the margins being scapegoated for a village's own moral perfidy.  There are women who don't want anything to do with Geralt, and those who decline his advances even if he has dialogue to make them, including Abigail later in the game who tells Geralt it's time for him to move on.  There are powerful women who are still flawed human beings, like Triss, Toruviel and White Rayla.

I don't understand how people on BSN can argue on the one hand that whatever permutations of adults from various species having sex with each other is grand, but object to casual sex in the Witcher games.  I'd like someone to explain how The Pearl or deflowering Cammen in DAO are any different than Geralt's rolls in the hay.  Because there's an artistic nude instead of a black fade with silly VO?

Modifié par Addai67, 05 février 2013 - 06:13 .

[AlanC9]

Addai67 wrote...
Abigail and the vampire were the ones I was talking about as being in poor taste.

I thought the Abigail card was supposed to be in poor taste; given her character and the particular circumstances of the encounter, that's one that Geralt really should be a bit embarrassed about.

[Renmiri1]

Addai67 wrote...

I don't understand how people on BSN can argue on the one hand that whatever permutations of adults from various species having sex with each other is grand, but object to casual sex in the Witcher games.  I'd like someone to explain how The Pearl or deflowering Cammen in DAO are any different than Geralt's rolls in the hay.  Because there's an artistic nude instead of a black fade with silly VO?

Because of the "collector" aspect the cards imply. As a woman I have met a lot of male jerks that view me and other women just as a card or a "pokemon" to add to their collection of one night stands. It irked me, because it is something that has hurt me and my friends in RL and triggered some bad memories. There is nothing bad about one night stands, if they are not promoted / celebrated as a male ontly thing. And if they are displayed as mutual pleasure. The cards didn't say it was "male only" and didn't imply it was just Geralt who had fun but RL experience filled in the blanks for me and annoyed me. In the end it is just a game but I hope game developers avoid rubbing salt in my wounds next time 

[Lennard Testarossa]

CronoDragoon  wrote...
Morally wrong is the primary implication

I strongly disagree with that one. I despise the notion that fiction has to conform to certain morals in order to be good. And I absolutely hate medieval fantasy that judges its characters according to moral standards outside of the ones present in its setting.

CronoDragoon wrote...
with factual issues sometimes arising depending onhow characters in-game justify their sexist/racist views.

My agreeing with this depends on your definiton of sexism. If you consider a lack of female leaders to be sexist, I very much disagree with your view.

EntropicAngel wrote...
I dunno, I was just assuming our Witcher fans would provide some
genuinely interesting viewpoints on what DA could gain from a look at TW

One thing that DA could learn from TW is to have conflicts of interests rather than conflicts of good and evil. In DA, your main enemies were mostly either pure evil or (borderline) insane. Sure, it is possible to have a measure of respect for Loghain, but in the end, his actions were simply paranoid and stupid.

Letho had good reasons to do what he did and despite the fact that he's your enemy, you can still respect him. He wasn't wrong, he wasn't evil, he was simply on the other side of a conflict.

[Xiomara]

Renmiri1 wrote...

Xiomara wrote...

We've all experienced it? Well...sometimes I wonder. Usually after reading an "implement my sexual fetish plz Biower" thread.

Do you even know what a sexual fetish is ?

Sexual fetishism[/b], or erotic fetishism[/b], is the sexual arousal a person receives from a physical object, or from a specific situation. The object or situation of interest is called the fetish[/b]; the person who has a fetish[/i] for that object/situation is a fetishist[/b].[1] A sexual fetish may be regarded as an enhancing element to a romantic/sexual relationship "achieved in ordinary ways (e.g. having the partner wear a particular garment)" or as a mental disorder/disorder of sexual preference if it causes significant psychosocial distress for the person or has detrimental effects on important areas of their life.[2] 

Heterosexual or homosexual sex or romance is not a fetish. Is part of life, as is eating, sleeping or breathing. I don't know if this is news to you but your parents did have sex at least once, you being the proof of the deed.

Seriously, people who view sex as dirty are the ones needing help IMHO. 

I'd say a fixation about your character getting to have sex with a horned muscle lady constitutes a fetish. As well as the talk of harems, BDSM and murdering your sexual partner. All of which have been requested on this forum.

I am not a prude, nor am I against sex in video games. I was attempting to point out (not very well maybe) that those who are obsessed with it are just as immature as those who throw their hands up in horror at the sight of a side boob.

[DaosX]

Another important thing that Dragon Age could learn from the Witcher is how to treat customers. The whole mentality of respecting your consumer base is one of the biggest reason why CD Projekt Red is gaining so many loyal customers whereas Bioware is losing them.

[Renmiri1]

DaosX wrote...

Another important thing that Dragon Age could learn from the Witcher is how to treat customers. The whole mentality of respecting your consumer base is one of the biggest reason why CD Projekt Red is gaining so many loyal customers whereas Bioware is losing them.

I wasn't here when DA2 was launched but since I joined (early 2012) the DA team has been outstanding in this aspect. They don't take sh*t from anyone but they frequently interact with us in a nice friendly way.

The Mass Effect team OTOH... 

[billy the squid]

Addai67 wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

So long as the writer provides some means of establishing that such sexism/racism is wrong then no, it's not a bad thing. While the Witcher 1 failed to do this, the Witcher 2 does a much better job, specifically with Saskia's character which not only subverts the gender expectation within the world, but then also goes on to subvert the player's expectation about subverting gender roles by revealing that she's not actually human at all!

Now listen here.  TW1 is my favorite of the series and I'm not going to stand for it being trashed.  <_<  Abigail's plot line is all about a woman at the margins being scapegoated for a village's own moral perfidy.  There are women who don't want anything to do with Geralt, and those who decline his advances even if he has dialogue to make them, including Abigail later in the game who tells Geralt it's time for him to move on.  There are powerful women who are still flawed human beings, like Triss, Toruviel and White Rayla.

I don't understand how people on BSN can argue on the one hand that whatever permutations of adults from various species having sex with each other is grand, but object to casual sex in the Witcher games.  I'd like someone to explain how The Pearl or deflowering Cammen in DAO are any different than Geralt's rolls in the hay.  Because there's an artistic nude instead of a black fade with silly VO?

They aren't that different, but it's easier to undermine the area that is being targeted with over generalisations, casual disregard "TW2 it's about boobs" and divert attention by petty fogging the issue than actually dealing with the fact that DA is just more squeamish when it comes to dealing with those events. TW2 deals with casual sex better. There is no difference. 

As for attempting to establish that racism/ sexism is wrong, no leave it alone I don't want preachy 21st century morality poking it's nose into what is essentially a more faithful representation of Medieval patriarchal society, where people were xenophobic, ignorant, superstitious and sexist.

 It also makes a good contrast when one gets to meet the members of the Lodge, like Triss and Sile, they use intelligence, manipulation even their looks and sex appeal to manipulate and get what they want. i.e when Sile tries, and fails to manipulate Letho.  They leave nothing unused out of squeamish good taste and for a woman in a male dominated society, to rise to that position of power, I expect them to be as ruthless as their male counterparts, the Kings of the North, Emhyr, Letho even Geralt.

Modifié par billy the squid, 05 février 2013 - 06:31 .

[billy the squid]

Lennard Testarossa wrote...

EntropicAngel wrote...
I dunno, I was just assuming our Witcher fans would provide some
genuinely interesting viewpoints on what DA could gain from a look at TW

One thing that DA could learn from TW is to have conflicts of interests rather than conflicts of good and evil. In DA, your main enemies were mostly either pure evil or (borderline) insane. Sure, it is possible to have a measure of respect for Loghain, but in the end, his actions were simply paranoid and stupid.

Letho had good reasons to do what he did and despite the fact that he's your enemy, you can still respect him. He wasn't wrong, he wasn't evil, he was simply on the other side of a conflict.

And the best thing, he wasn't the real enemy at all! Emhyr var Emreis had orchestrated the entire plot and conflict, Letho is only a representation of the Emperor's will.

Modifié par billy the squid, 05 février 2013 - 06:34 .

[Darth Death]

DaosX wrote...

Another important thing that Dragon Age could learn from the Witcher is how to treat customers. The whole mentality of respecting your consumer base is one of the biggest reason why CD Projekt Red is gaining so many loyal customers whereas Bioware is losing them.

I have to agree. Not only do CD Projekt Red make great games, but they're also great towards their fan base. Another thing I like about them is that they're not trying to cater to everyone. They know their audience & know how to deliver it.  

[Dutchess]

Renmiri1 wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

I don't understand how people on BSN can argue on the one hand that whatever permutations of adults from various species having sex with each other is grand, but object to casual sex in the Witcher games.  I'd like someone to explain how The Pearl or deflowering Cammen in DAO are any different than Geralt's rolls in the hay.  Because there's an artistic nude instead of a black fade with silly VO?

Because of the "collector" aspect the cards imply. As a woman I have met a lot of male jerks that view me and other women just as a card or a "pokemon" to add to their collection of one night stands. It irked me, because it is something that has hurt me and my friends in RL and triggered some bad memories. There is nothing bad about one night stands, if they are not promoted / celebrated as a male ontly thing. And if they are displayed as mutual pleasure. The cards didn't say it was "male only" and didn't imply it was just Geralt who had fun but RL experience filled in the blanks for me and annoyed me. In the end it is just a game but I hope game developers avoid rubbing salt in my wounds next time 

I don't see why you would automatically assume there was no mutual pleasure involved. Several of the women Geralt can sleep with in TW1 clearly hint at what they want and take the initiative (noble woman, naughty cleric, Adda, woman of the outskirts). 

[Raging_Pulse]

Darth Death wrote...

DaosX wrote...

Another important thing that Dragon Age could learn from the Witcher is how to treat customers. The whole mentality of respecting your consumer base is one of the biggest reason why CD Projekt Red is gaining so many loyal customers whereas Bioware is losing them.

I have to agree. Not only do CD Projekt Red make great games, but they're also great towards their fan base. Another thing I like about them is that they're not trying to cater to everyone. They know their audience & know how to deliver it.  

I also have to agree with this.

They just seem more relaxed, casual, informal and straightforward - yet remain respectful and professional- when communicating with fans. At least, that is the impression I always get. The Witcher 3 probably won't hit the shelves anytime before late 2014/early 2015, and yet they already provided a thorough list of VERY specific features they wish to implement in the game, several concept art pics and even two actual screenshots.

Same goes for Cyberpunk 2077. The game is very early in development, yet we already got an amzing teaser CGI trailer and the official site/blog is constantly being updated with new bits of info every now and then.

[Addai]

Renmiri1 wrote...
Because of the "collector" aspect the cards imply. As a woman I have met a lot of male jerks that view me and other women just as a card or a "pokemon" to add to their collection of one night stands. It irked me, because it is something that has hurt me and my friends in RL and triggered some bad memories. There is nothing bad about one night stands, if they are not promoted / celebrated as a male ontly thing. And if they are displayed as mutual pleasure. The cards didn't say it was "male only" and didn't imply it was just Geralt who had fun but RL experience filled in the blanks for me and annoyed me. In the end it is just a game but I hope game developers avoid rubbing salt in my wounds next time 

That's understandable, but as you admit it's also a personal sensitivity.  My own personal sensitivity is to anything and everything being cast as oppressive to women, because it stamps a big V for victim on every woman's forehead whether she wants it there or not.  I also don't want to see games be forced to walk on political  correctness eggshells.

Modifié par Addai67, 05 février 2013 - 07:23 .

[LinksOcarina]

Domecoming wrote...

Darth Death wrote...

DaosX wrote...

Another important thing that Dragon Age could learn from the Witcher is how to treat customers. The whole mentality of respecting your consumer base is one of the biggest reason why CD Projekt Red is gaining so many loyal customers whereas Bioware is losing them.

I have to agree. Not only do CD Projekt Red make great games, but they're also great towards their fan base. Another thing I like about them is that they're not trying to cater to everyone. They know their audience & know how to deliver it.  

I also have to agree with this.

They just seem more relaxed, casual, informal and straightforward - yet remain respectful and professional- when communicating with fans. At least, that is the impression I always get. The Witcher 3 probably won't hit the shelves anytime before late 2014/early 2015, and yet they already provided a thorough list of VERY specific features they wish to implement in the game, several concept art pics and even two actual screenshots.

Same goes for Cyberpunk 2077. The game is very early in development, yet we already got an amzing teaser CGI trailer and the official site/blog is constantly being updated with new bits of info every now and then.

So if they fal to deliver those features in The Witcher 3 is it ok to burn them at a stake?

And this is a bit off-topic, but the cyberpunk trailer was not that good, and ironically, some friends of mine called it baiting because of how cliched it was. Me I am ambivalent because I know a trailer means nothing now a days, but I have to admit it does little for me too at this stage and was far from being amazing. 

Modifié par LinksOcarina, 05 février 2013 - 07:30 .

[CronoDragoon]

Addai67 wrote...
Now listen here.  TW1 is my favorite of the series and I'm not going to stand for it being trashed.  <_<  Abigail's plot line is all about a woman at the margins being scapegoated for a village's own moral perfidy.

Was Abigail the witch? I don't remember all of your other examples to be honest, but Triss is an interesting case. On the one hand, she is physically powerful and occupies an important role in government. On the other hand, there is very little to her character development outside of her relationship to Geralt. I would be more inclined to call her a strong female character if she had some more nuance to her than wishing that Geralt spent the rest of their lives with her. Contrast this with BioWare female characters who are not solely defined by their relationship to the main character.

I don't understand how people on BSN can argue on the one hand that whatever permutations of adults from various species having sex with each other is grand, but object to casual sex in the Witcher games.  I'd like someone to explain how The Pearl or deflowering Cammen in DAO are any different than Geralt's rolls in the hay.  Because there's an artistic nude instead of a black fade with silly VO?

I actually don't care about casual sex. If you want to be able to play a loose character then go for it. But I do have a problem with the way it is presented in the Witcher games: the cards in 1 and the sex scenes in 2, which other than the Triss scenes have no value except to get you horny.

Obviously not every case of a woman in the Witcher is sexist. It would be an intolerable game if that were true.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 05 février 2013 - 07:34 .

[CronoDragoon]

Lennard Testarossa wrote...
I strongly disagree with that one. I despise the notion that fiction has to conform to certain morals in order to be good.

It doesn't have to conform to a certain moral viewpoint to be good overall. But if it is good, then it's for other reasons.

And I absolutely hate medieval fantasy that judges its characters according to moral standards outside of the ones present in its setting.

Such as?

CronoDragoon wrote...
with factual issues sometimes arising depending onhow characters in-game justify their sexist/racist views.

My agreeing with this depends on your definiton of sexism. If you consider a lack of female leaders to be sexist, I very much disagree with your view.

With the factual thing I am more referring to, say, Leonardo DiCaprio's argument in Django that dimples at the back of slave skulls correlate to a tendency for submission.

One thing that DA could learn from TW is to have conflicts of interests rather than conflicts of good and evil. In DA, your main enemies were mostly either pure evil or (borderline) insane. Sure, it is possible to have a measure of respect for Loghain, but in the end, his actions were simply paranoid and stupid.

Letho had good reasons to do what he did and despite the fact that he's your enemy, you can still respect him. He wasn't wrong, he wasn't evil, he was simply on the other side of a conflict.

Whether or not you agree with the execution, this is pretty much exactly what DA2 set out to do, isn't it?

[stormhit]

Megakoresh wrote...

I do not mean romance. I mean personality, interactions and involvement. Witcher 2 doesn't have it nealy on the level of Origins. You can go to my post here. I discuss why in detail.

Witcher 2 is my favourite game, by the way.

Mostly since this thread predictably seems to be getting hung up on one particular issue....

Totally agree with this. Not being familiar with either the first game or the source material, I found the character writing in W2 to be lackluster at best. Most of them don't have any inner life and only exist to provide pages and pages of dry exposition.

[Addai]

CronoDragoon wrote...
Was Abigail the witch? I don't remember all of your other examples to be honest, but Triss is an interesting case. On the one hand, she is physically powerful and occupies an important role in government. On the other hand, there is very little to her character development outside of her relationship to Geralt. I would be more inclined to call her a strong female character if she had some more nuance to her than wishing that Geralt spent the rest of their lives with her. Contrast this with BioWare female characters who are not solely defined by their relationship to the main character.

Yeah, you obviously missed some stuff, like her association with the Lodge and deceiving Geralt about it.  She and Geralt have a long history, and yes she is in love with him, but it's only her defining characteristic if you choose to see it that way.  Like a lot of people around here, if they have a chip on their shoulder about CDPR.

I actually don't care about casual sex. If you want to be able to play a loose character then go for it. But I do have a problem with the way it is presented in the Witcher games: the cards in 1 and the sex scenes in 2, which other than the Triss scenes have no value except to get you horny.

So there's a lot of story value in The Pearl's lineup?  Do tell.

Modifié par Addai67, 05 février 2013 - 07:44 .