370 réponses à ce sujet

[AngryFrozenWater]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I guess imagine if there was 30-40 hours of unique content, but we ended up delivering with a branch that basically has 2 mostly unique 15-20 hours branches.

It'd make the game shorter which does have some consequences: For those that feel a story needs the length in order to properly flesh things out, this is still a negative. For those that feel our games are too long, this may be a positive. For those that want total value of the game and typically replay it, there's still 30-40 hours of fresh gameplay. Those that don't typically replay but still typically finish, however, will have less content.

In the original marketing information of TW2 they told the player that the game was shorter than the first game because of the story branches. So, one knew that it would be shorter in advance. You rarely hear complaints about that, because the players knew it was going to happen. They dropped that information once the game was expanded with more content after version 2.0 or so. I like and respect that kind of information and I understand why they dropped it later on.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 02 février 2013 - 01:30 .

[Mr.House]

Choices that have real consequences and change the world, how characters act towards you and even losing access to certain things.

[addiction21]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I guess imagine if there was 30-40 hours of unique content, but we ended up delivering with a branch that basically has 2 mostly unique 15-20 hours branches.

It'd make the game shorter which does have some consequences: For those that feel a story needs the length in order to properly flesh things out, this is still a negative. For those that feel our games are too long, this may be a positive. For those that want total value of the game and typically replay it, there's still 30-40 hours of fresh gameplay. Those that don't typically replay but still typically finish, however, will have less content.

In the original marketing information of TW2 they told the player that the game was shorter than the first game because of the story branches. So, one knew that it would be shorter in advance. You rarely hear complaints about that. The players knew it was going to happen. They dropped that information once the game was expanded with more content after version 2.0 or so. I like and respect that kind of information and I understand why they dropped it later on.

As opposed to how with DA2 we all knew well in advance it was going to be voiced.

Why then oh why do we hear that complaint on the regular?

[KnightofPhoenix]

simfamSP wrote...
Though this accusation of misogyny is way off the chart. 

Although I believe that the accusations tend to be exagerrated and in a lot of instances hypocritical (the accusers tend to ignore what bioware did and still does in this "fan-war" they have going on), the Witcher series still has room to improve in that regard.

TW2 certainly did improve from TW1, which was a mess in that regard. But it still has some problems in it, a lot of which Bioware is hardly exempt from. Especially the marketing, that Triss playboy thing was just horrendous and a disservice to the character. 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 02 février 2013 - 01:34 .

[AngryFrozenWater]

addiction21 wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I guess imagine if there was 30-40 hours of unique content, but we ended up delivering with a branch that basically has 2 mostly unique 15-20 hours branches.

It'd make the game shorter which does have some consequences: For those that feel a story needs the length in order to properly flesh things out, this is still a negative. For those that feel our games are too long, this may be a positive. For those that want total value of the game and typically replay it, there's still 30-40 hours of fresh gameplay. Those that don't typically replay but still typically finish, however, will have less content.

In the original marketing information of TW2 they told the player that the game was shorter than the first game because of the story branches. So, one knew that it would be shorter in advance. You rarely hear complaints about that. The players knew it was going to happen. They dropped that information once the game was expanded with more content after version 2.0 or so. I like and respect that kind of information and I understand why they dropped it later on.

As opposed to how with DA2 we all knew well in advance it was going to be voiced.

Why then oh why do we hear that complaint on the regular?

Voice acting and its effects on the game length is a different topic and it has nothing to do with what was being discussed.

[Mr.House]

Cthulhu42 wrote...

simfamSP wrote...

Cthulhu42 wrote...

Choices that actually have significant effects on the game experience.

There were hardly any in Witcher 2... unless you mean in-game consequences, and not anything going over from save imports.

That's exactly what I meant.

I don't know a thing about the save imports, seeing as I played TW2 on Xbox and thus had none at all.

It makes Biowares importing into their games look amazing.

[Xewaka]

simfamSP wrote...

Cthulhu42 wrote...
Choices that actually have significant effects on the game experience.

There were hardly any in Witcher 2... unless you mean in-game consequences, and not anything going over from save imports.

Why would I want my game choices to not reflect in this games but rather in a future, nondescript title that might not even get made? Choice reactivity should be within the same game. Intergame reactivity is a nice bonus, but intragame reactivity is what shows actual care about choice design. It needs not be inmediate (i.e. a choice in act 1 could have its repercussions shown in act 4), but it needs to be in the same game.

[KnightofPhoenix]

simfamSP wrote...
Agreed. Perhaps 'way off the chart' was too strong in that regard.

And my god Phoenix! Where have you been? Any more TW Politics blogs? I enjoy those.

Been busy lately. But part 5 is coming soon (it's going to be about the rivalry between Radovid and Philippa Eilhart) and I'm working on a Letho tribute video which should be done in a day or two. 

[billy the squid]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

They can learn that if you pander to the kinds of people that say things like "I play real games" they will talk about your "real game" in every corner of the internet.

Sounds like a brilliant strategy to me. 

Sure, if you want inarticulate, self-congratulating dudebros acting as your volunteer spokesmen.

Better than the current waifu/ "that's sexist brigade" brigade which dominate this forum.

[KnightofPhoenix]

billy the squid wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...
Sure, if you want inarticulate, self-congratulating dudebros acting as your volunteer spokesmen.

Better than the current waifu/ "that's sexist brigade" brigade which dominate this forum.

I really think this "bi(o)drone datesim players" vs "dudebro mysogynist pigs " war has outlived its entertainment value. 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 02 février 2013 - 01:56 .

[addiction21]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Voice acting and its effects on the game length is a different topic and it has nothing to do with what was being discussed.

Why is it different? These are both bits of knowledge provided ahead of time to the fanbases. Why is it okay for one to not get complaints while the other is moaned about ad nauseum?

[billy the squid]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...
Sure, if you want inarticulate, self-congratulating dudebros acting as your volunteer spokesmen.

Better than the current waifu/ "that's sexist brigade" brigade which dominate this forum.

I really think this "bi(o)drone datesim players" vs "dudebro mysogynist pigs " war has outlived its entertainment value. 

I don't think it's entertaining either. I just enjoy highlightng rank hypocrisy when I see it.

If anything I don't think BioWare should take anything other than broad strokes form TW2, and certainly not attempt to imitate it, something which would likely fail.

My expectations of TW and what it can provide is very different from what Dragon age may provide, which I've largely resigned myself to the belief that political depth, more complex characters and a morally grey world are beyond the scope of DA after Dragon Age 2. 

Modifié par billy the squid, 02 février 2013 - 02:05 .

[Direwolf0294]

The only thing I can think of that I think DA can learn from The Witcher, keeping in mind I've only sunk about 25 hours into the first game and haven't finished it, is making towns feel more crowded and lived in. The Witcher was an okay game, but it did a lot of things I didn't like and it's not the sort of RPG I want DA to become.

[Fast Jimmy]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...
Sure, if you want inarticulate, self-congratulating dudebros acting as your volunteer spokesmen.

Better than the current waifu/ "that's sexist brigade" brigade which dominate this forum.

I really think this "bi(o)drone datesim players" vs "dudebro mysogynist pigs " war has outlived its entertainment value. 

Really? I thought my dudebro post on page 3 was pretty entertaining.


Maybe I'm losing my touch... 

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 02 février 2013 - 02:41 .

[Fast Jimmy]

addiction21 wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Voice acting and its effects on the game length is a different topic and it has nothing to do with what was being discussed.

Why is it different? These are both bits of knowledge provided ahead of time to the fanbases. Why is it okay for one to not get complaints while the other is moaned about ad nauseum?

Acknowledging a negative and then offering its counterpart positive gives it acceptance.

Hiding a negative as something that can ONLY be positive leads to people feeling like they were lied to.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Fast Jimmy wrote...
Really? I thought my dudebro post on page 3 was pretty entertaining.


Maybe I'm losing my touch... 

No, as I don't like the implication that The Witcher fans are "dudebros" or even that a lot of them are.
If that was the case, CDPR would not have wasted its time, ressources and efforts to make a game that has to be played twice in order to appreciate its story which is its main thing, with a big amount of political intrigue that demands the players to be attentive and thoughtful to grasp. This does not sound like a game for "dudebros."

But the fault doesn't lie with you, ou were replying to someone else's post. 

[Allan Schumacher]

I'd want a large amount of divergence before I'm convinved to replay a game based on story related reasons. Thinking Fallout 1/2/new vegas, alpha protocol/witcher 2 levels.

The games you list don't actually have much genuine divergence at all. The Fallout games are (mostly) nonlinear, as is Alpha Protocol.

Alpha Protocol, in particular, has very good reactivity. The Witcher is actually divergent, in that you get separate, mutually exclusive content, based on decisions that you make.

[Allan Schumacher]

addiction21 wrote...

As opposed to how with DA2 we all knew well in advance it was going to be voiced.

Why then oh why do we hear that complaint on the regular?

While I understand your point (and appreciate that you're looking to defend BioWare), AngryFrozenOne's response was fair enough.

I'd prefer to try to keep this discussion geared towards something more constructive than trying to take along a different path.

There may very well be a double standard that some people have, but within the context of the points I made, the response was an interesting perspective.  I am actually not sure if I necessarily agree that the hypothesis she put forth is actually the case, but it's still a fair point.

[Fast Jimmy]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I'd want a large amount of divergence before I'm convinved to replay a game based on story related reasons. Thinking Fallout 1/2/new vegas, alpha protocol/witcher 2 levels.


The games you list don't actually have much genuine divergence at all. The Fallout games are (mostly) nonlinear, as is Alpha Protocol.

Alpha Protocol, in particular, has very good reactivity. The Witcher is actually divergent, in that you get separate, mutually exclusive content, based on decisions that you make.

Endings that are wildly divergent depending on choice like in the above-mentioned Fallout games do offer a lot of divergence in the events that happen... it just so happens that they happen after the game is over.

I think too many developers underestimate the strength such follow up on choices can bring to a gamer's psyche. Arguably, I'd say the epilogue slides in DA:O were more satisfying to me than choosing the Light/Dark side in KOTOR. Despite getting actual divergent content, the consequences of my actions were actually discussed, both in micro and macro terms, which gives the player a good sense that they are involved in the world outside of what the game shows us directly.

The old saying "show, don't tell" doesn't always work with stories. Sometimes when you think you are showing someone something, it doesn't come across or you send an unintentionally unclear message (like the Mass Relays being destroyed pre-EC). In many cases, telling the player what their actions resulted in, for good, bad or indifferent, can be much better than offering divergent or reactive content that only lasts for a short time and doesn't feel like the world is much different.

[upsettingshorts]

It seems much of the discussion, cutting through the noise any baggage each game might bring, is about where the plot divergence is.

If it's put super early, like the origins in DAO, its impact seems - as a matter of consequence - to be necessarily minimal. It's not hard to see why. Divergence adds variation that must be accounted for.

If it's put in the middle, you can get mutually exclusive endgame content. The downside to this is that the game itself will probably be shorter than it could have been, since any given playthrough will objectively miss out on the path not taken. But there is much more value in replays than there would have been otherwise. Problematically, however, most gamers only play a game once. So this is a risk. But it has obvious merits.

If it's put at the end, you get things like the epilogue cards. Or the Mass Effect 3 endings whose consequences are necessarily ambiguous, or the Mass Effect 1-2 endings which are similar for continuity reasons due to save imports.

Each approach comes with pluses and minuses. I do think it would be fun/interesting/worthwhile for a future BioWare game, DA3 included, to go the middle route as TW2 did.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 02 février 2013 - 05:12 .