370 réponses à ce sujet

[Sutekh]

slimgrin wrote...

This is complete nonsense. You are getting Bioware's games as wrong as you are CDPR's.

Could you elaborate?

Not that I disagree (or agree), but dismissing a whole reasoning as complete nonsense without explaining why seems a bit... easy. There's some fine points in LinksOcarina's post (plot vs. narrative).

(I also wasn't aware there was a True and Canonical way to get Bioware's and CDPR's games, but that's another story).

[Gnoster]

 Personally I don't think Bioware should learn too much from The Witcher, but Witcher 2 had some great aspects I would like to see Bioware look into:

the quest journal in TW2 was amazing as it was written as a story (by Dandelion if I recall). Good updates and writing gave for interesting and helpful updates. Not to compare DA with ME, but the quest journal in ME3 was probably the worst I have ever experienced.

The branshing storyline in TW2 introduced a huge replayability to me, but this is ot a must to bring that as both DA games had something else doing that. Interesting concept tough.

I absolutely loved the graphics and atmosphere of TW2. The cities felt alive, and it seemed people actually lived there. Something Bioware has not achieved in either DA game in my opinion.

storywise I love ethically tough choices, and TW2 has a lot of them. It deals with very dark and mature issues (and no, I am about talking about sex scenes). The choice between humans and non-humans in TW2 act one was not easy too me, and the choice of letting your friend murder a king because said king raped one of his soldiers raises interesting questions I think. Bioware has achieved this in ME3 for several occasions I think, more of this is always good.

[BlackGrifon]

i'm not sure who said that cdprogect red should take lessons from dragon age, but im sure he never played the witcher games. The witcher1 was amazing, 2 was epic. The same can be said for the uncharted series one masterpiece after the other. Now i agree dragon age origins was legendary, but instead of building on that the game took a turn to shyt*, they took everything greate about the game. So in this aspect the devs from dragon age take note. Work for years and bring something to be prowd of. Im not saying the witcher is foawless

[Ravenfeeder]

I can't comment too much on TW2 as I stopped playing fairly early due to hating the gameplay, but I recall TW as having better area design than most Bioware type games. Compare the marshes in TW to the Kokari Wilds (and I think they were one of the better area designs in DA:O). The marshes are larger and have much more freedom of movement, The Kokari Wilds being essentially dungeon tunnels that you can see through.

There is much more of each area of Vizima than there is of Denerim or Kirkwall and it feels better thought through. The DA cities feel like places put there to have fights and conversations in. Vizima felt like somewhere people lived and loved, it had atmosphere.

[BlackGrifon]

i'm not sure who said that cdprogect red should take lessons from dragon age, but im sure he never played the witcher games. The witcher1 was amazing, 2 was epic. The same can be said for the uncharted series one masterpiece after the other. Now i agree dragon age origins was legendary, but instead of building on that the game took a turn to shyt*, they took everything great about the game. So in this aspect the devs from dragon age take note. Work for years and bring something to be prowd of. Im not saying the witcher is flawless but it doesnt have big ones. Someone also said the witcher should let you build your own character, i dont recal anyone complaining about shepard being the default character, that is how the game is seat.

[BombThatDeadGuy]

The Witcher 2, while very fun to play each had some issues that Dragon Age 2 never had. I really wanted to get into TW2 but it had one big Achilles heel and that it's navigation and mini-map.

I have never said "Where do I need to go." as much as I have playing TW2 though this was more of a problem for the side missions than the main mission. The mini map and regular map also could've been done better.

The mini-map, in my opinion, was too small and feature way too much brown and made hard to see what is what, the main also has issues where you can't even set a waypoint which would've been helpful during the monster contract quests.

Finally I found the voice acting and characters to be much better in Dragon Age 2 than the Witcher 2. Geralt is at best average to me but Triss...man they could've done better with her voice. Thoughout the game she spoke mostly in mono-tone and did not have any emotion in her lines, like she'll lines that are meant to be funny and in theory should be but the delivery is so dull that the joke falls flat.

[LinksOcarina]

slimgrin wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...

Jayne126 wrote...

The Choice and Consequence department.

And TW doesn't need to include "other" perspectives. It's about Geralt, who isn't "your" Character.

Oh yeah, and a Barber.

Well, Geralt is just like Shepard, or Hawke or Lee Everett in many ways where he is a hybrid character that you control, but only insomuch as the narrative. The plot is fixed, some aspects of the character are fixed, but we can shape the narrative in a number of ways through that.

Thats the dichtomoy that people I feel never really look into because there is a distinction between the two, between the plot and the narrative and ergo the choices and consequences. 

For example, you think the Witcher 2 is full of choices and consequences? Truth be told its mostly railroaded to specific choices (Roache or Iorveth, anything with Triss) that essentially designed to be major plot points for you to follow. True, choosing them changes aspects of the narrative, but the overall plot in the end is, for all intents and purposes, essentially the same.

Shepard and Hawke had this too. Their objectives were always set in stone, the tone of those objectives are changed though. Siding with mages or templars is unchangable, but thats part of the plot, you need to side with one. Who you side with, however, is part of the narrative. Same with how you deal with Anders, or Fenryiel, or your companions, or the Arishock.  Who, what, and how you resolve those changes, even if its a plot-fixed event.

That is kind of the point in the end of the choices and consequences, its illusionary in its design by design, because its following a fixed plot like Final Fantasy, with more choice in it. 

This is complete nonsense. You are getting Bioware's games as wrong as you are CDPR's.

Why and how? Why is it nonsense and how is the storytelling different between both games, assuming they are different types of storytelling?

And let me pre-empt this by asking you what a plot is, and what a story/narrative is.

Modifié par LinksOcarina, 02 février 2013 - 04:04 .

[7Nemesis]

There's one thing that both Dragon Age and Mass Effect series can learn from The Witcher series and that's CHOICE and CONSEQUENCE. The Witcher gets you to make a choice and it shows you the outcome a few chapters later when you already advanced a lot in the story and forces you to deal with it. THIS I'd like to see happening in both future Dragon Age and Mass Effect games.

[Reikilea]

Well Witcher already had amazing universe established. Sapkowski books are amazing. Great universe, great characters.  Geralt was great character before the game started. 

And Biware was doing really great before the DA2. Evyerythign was better.

What Bioware could learn? Scoia'tael. This is how racism looks like. Elves and dwarves fight those humans and take back your freedom.  Especially elves in DA universe. How can they just do nothing and stay opressed.  How great that would fit in the war they created after the DA2. At leats that woudl get rid of this boring human/andrastian/christian focus.

Actually I always thought that Bioware was inspired by this other species racism - as it was in Witcher.

And magic. Learn from Witcher sorcerers. Mages are respected there.  Because magic isnt dangerous. People are.

And definitely those choices. I had quite big moral dilemas playing Witcher. And the fatc you saw your outcome was amazing.  I had no moral dilemma playing DA2. It was much better in Origins. 

And comparing romances. That´s totally different topic. Geralt is supposed to be with Yennefer, everyone else is just a flick, but his relationship with Triss is portrayed nicely. In DA games, romances are important - with the rule to each player his own and we will always argue about our LI´s. In DA2 I cared only about Anders. The other romances were boring to me.

Modifié par Reikilea, 02 février 2013 - 05:45 .

[duckley]

As a woman, I thought the woman card thing in Witcher 1 was silly - only titilating as far as I was concened, for the young teenaged boy game player.
IMO Geralt was portrayed as a very senual man with lots of sexual energy (perhaps due to his genetic mutation?) I did not perceive him as being mysogynistic at all. I loved the progression of his relationship with Triss and their love making scenes were lovely in Witcher 2. JMHO. Sex and romance are a part of life so I enjoy seeing them included as a part of any RPG. I found the romances and lovemaking scenes in DAO more realistic than in DA2 - I did not care for most of the romance options in DA2 except for Isabella. It did seem foolish that Hawke and his/her partner had their clothes on while making love... that speaks to me as quick sex and not lovemaking - caused my eyes to roll for sure!

[BlazingSpeed]

Um, as much as I love the Witcher games having a dark fantasy setting as opposed to Dragon Age's bright contrast (I've only read the first two translated Witcher novels but not Dragon Ages novel's...).

Dragon age has taken on a life of it's own and thus it is to late for the game series to lean towards the dark edgier side of fantasy realms.

[Lord Issa]

To be honest, I reckon that Bioware would do better to take cues from Dragon Age: Origins. I loved both Witcher games, but trying to emulate another company might just end up feeling derivative.

[Fast Jimmy]

^

To be fair, the Dark Ritual was a plot sex scene. Although, ironically enough, we saw more skin of the male Warden involved than Morrigan.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 02 février 2013 - 06:11 .

[duckley]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Lots of great stuff here, but I want to argue one thing in particular.

I don't think Bioware needs to include sex and nudity. The reason for this is that they add nothing.

Now, I made a thread on this, but i'll briefly outline my position:

Sex and nudity are not plot, at least the acts themselves--usually. In the DA games. They are not character-defining. They do not provide exposition on the setting. They are not necessary as I see it. In my opinion, DA ][ had some of the better romance scenes in a Bioware game, because the romance scenes were character-defining: they were exposition on your LI, and on hawke if you so chose. The sex scenes were individualized scenes based on the character, and made specific to the character: character defining--they weren't a generic cutscene of a male body model and a female body model with the appropriate heads pasted on.

I don't think more nudity is something Dragon Age to learn, because it doesn't help the plot, the setting, or character definition.

 Well said. I agree that sex and nudity are not plot. I do wonder if for Alistair making love (versus sex) was somewhat character defining..And I think Geralt and Triss's relationship also helped to define his character. I am sure Bioware knows all about nudity and I dont think they will ever go there.  Tastefully dione, nudity for me can  add a level of intimacy to the characters relationship that I appreciate.

[Giltspur]

1) Activity.  City folk milling around in towns.  When the king is walking through the buildings talking to Geralt there's a lot of bustle and chatter in the background.  When you're in the middle of a battle, you hear the screams and cries in the background and there's a lot of frenzy around you that makes you feel like you're in a scrum where the walls of soldiers can push up against you. 
2) Using special abilities in conversations (such as the runes Geralt can use).
3) Cities that have changed when you come back to them based on decisions you've made.
3) I wish the Dalish had more fight in them like the Scoia'tael do. 
4) The duel with Letho at the end of Act I is better than the duel with Arishok at the end of Act III.  CDPR used cinematics between phases of the fights.  The fight itself is really minimal.  It's more like a Star Wars fight: a moment of drama that's mostly flash.  Maybe if Bioware had done that to split the fight up with Arishok it wouldn't have been such an anticlimactic kite-fest.
5) Enemies that have weaknesses that you can find out in game through books or conversation.
6) Colorful, varied environments.  (I get the impression from tweets among Bioware employees that DA3 has this covered already.)
7) Plot divergences are pretty cool, and TW2 is pretty bold here.  Things don't necessarily have to go that far.  Just having GW2 style quest choices would be a nice touch.  Granted, TW2 doesn't have the divergences that the old Genesis game Phantasy Star III had.    Granted, games were probably less heinous to make back then.
8) Stylized moments to highlight plot points.  After Triss gets kidnapped, the visuals change a bit to highlight Geralt's altered state.  Uncharted 3 does this sort of thing also when Nate is drugged or has heat sickness.
9) Things falling apart.  Structures collapsing at climax, doors getting kicked down during a rescue as the music flares up, dragons breathing fire through windows.  The collapsing structures reminds of Uncharted.  You see the dragons creeping in and making a mess of things in Skyrim as well.
10) Witcher 2 manages to get called "old school" as a sign of respect even though it isn't even remotely old school.  The feel and the setting are old school.  But the gameplay is Mass Effect with swords.  Witcher 2 is the real Dragon Effect.  As for people that hate anachronistic music in fantasy games?  Witcher has plenty of electric guitar in it.  It blood splatters a camera lens that isn't there.  It has voiced protagonist, paraphrases, fixed human protagonist, non-customizable companions, fewer armor and weapon models than a dragon age game, matrix effects and time dilation mixed in with the combat. It does tons of things that annoy purists.  But it also has tavern music, colorful tents, animal heraldry, lutes, bards in ridiculous clothes.  And somehow it all works.  I'm not sure what the lesson is in that exactly, but I'm sure there is one.
11) Geralt is the Dos Equis man of RPG's.  Stay bloodthirsty my friends.  While I think 80's action heroes need to stay in the 80's and that protagonists need to get kicked in the face a lot, it is good to take a break from all the pain and setback and be reminded sometimes that the hero is the hero for a reason.  Geralt gets some real moments of badassery. 

Modifié par Giltspur, 02 février 2013 - 06:30 .

[Fast Jimmy]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

^

To be fair, the Dark Ritual was a plot sex scene. Although, ironically enough, we saw more skin of the male Warden involved than Morrigan.

Fair. And, it should be noted, it was different.

Am I the only one who noticed that when Morrigan climbed onto the bed, the Warden crab-walked backwards a few feet? And was I the only one who saw what looked like a look of fear?

Linky (though with Alistair)

You definitely were not. The Warden, even one who has romanced Morrigan, does the same "backpedaling" type motion. Probably because Morrigan is looking at you like a female praying mantis looks at a male.

That being said... just be glad I couldn't find any YouTube links of the modded versions where it is the Broodmother who is coming for the male Warden instead. Now THAT'S creepy.


That being said, tastefully done nudity like in ME1 (which was hardly more than exposed blue butt) was fine. Not graphic or like a sex mini-game, but better than people rolling around, dry humping in their undies. 

[Robhuzz]

Lord Issa wrote...

To be honest, I reckon that Bioware would do better to take cues from Dragon Age: Origins. I loved both Witcher games, but trying to emulate another company might just end up feeling derivative.

This. I think both Witcher games are good and TW2 was my 2011 GOTY, but aside from just looking at what CDProjekt did right, bioware should just follow their own plans. Choose a direction then stick with it I'd say.

[Endurium]

I've played The Witcher (first game) more often than both Dragon Age games combined, While I enjoy DAO, it just doesn't capture the feeling of being in another world like the Witcher does. Also Bioware can't touch the Lady of the Lake (and one of my favorite cutscenes).

To put another way, The Witcher makes me feel like I'm a stranger on Temeria getting to know Temeria. Dragon Age makes me feel like I'm sitting at my desk on Earth playing a game set in another world. It's just not the same.

The Witcher also has NPC schedules, day/night cycles, and so on. These are things Bioware initially had in their games, but quickly got rid of. Consequently their games are not as immersive.

Oh, and The Witcher has the Djinni toolset (arguably not easy to work with).

Modifié par Endurium, 02 février 2013 - 07:06 .

[_- Songlian -]

Good Heavens, are we not done comparing Dragon Age with The Witcher yet?

[Fast Jimmy]

^

I'm not sure it HAD to be...? Since its not?