32 réponses à ce sujet

[duemoko]

 Just installed NMN after nearly 7 years with the aim to play certainly SoU and HotU (probably the OC too) but feeling a little overwhelmed choosing what to play. I have played various CRPGs before (BG, IWD and so on) but I always struggle a bit when it comes time to choose a character.

I guess I prefer it when I can make a person who is a little of everything (the sort of thing you get with The Elder Scrolls type of games). I tend to prefer mages / thieves / bards as characters as I like Magic, I like sneaking / scouting for traps and picking the odd lock

In theory multiclassing will allow me to do that in NWN, but I do wonder if I'm better playing a single classed character. I find it unlikely that I'll ever play through these games again with another character. I have enough of a backlog

Any thoughts on being a Wizard / Sorceror / Bard / Thief, or some combination there of?

Modifié par duemoko, 01 février 2013 - 05:58 .

[Squatting Monk]

One of the problems is that multiclassing to a magic user can leave you underpowered in magic as well as health. A good compromise may be to just play Rogue and bump your Use Magic Device skill. This will let you use scrolls and wands for your magic. Another alternative would be to roll an Arcane Archer based on Rogue (sneak attack can do wonders for your archery).

[Rolo Kipp]

<getting all...>

When I played through the OC->SoU->HotU with Rolo, I was already pretty comfortable with the mechanics of NwN. I *always* play Rolo as a roguish wizard. So before starting the OC, I read up on the thinking behind various builds -and was enormously impressed with Webshaman's treatise on the Melee Mage. Not just the build, but his explanations about *why*.

I played all the way through, starting with a rogue and adding two levels if wizard for every one of rogue. I also stuck to my rather (in)famous raven familiar Bother.

If you love the character and do a bit of research into how that character can use the mechanics of the game, you will, I think, enjoy playing the character you *want*, regardless of number crunching or "best builds" opinions =)

<...nostalgic>

[Empyre65]

If you try to be both a caster and a thief, you won't do either very well, so since you are playing 2 campaigns, I suggest you do one of each.

In the OC, play as a Melee Mage. If you are Good-aligned, you can take the character onward into the Aribeth's Redemption series.

For the other campaign, I suggest SoU, The Nether Scrolls bridge module, HotU, and then the Sands of Fate series to bring you all the way to level 40.
Sands of Fate 1
Sands of Fate 2
Sands of Fate 3

For your character, how about this build I made a couple months ago?

Hin Hero (Rogue 24 / Fighter 6 / Champion of Torm 10)
Halfling, Non-Evil
Playable 1 - 40, PvM

Abilities:
STR: 12
DEX: 18 (32)
CON: 14
WIS: 10
INT: 14
CHA: 8

Leveling Guide:
Halfling: (Fearless, Good Aim, Lucky, Skill Affinity: Listen, Skill Affinity: Move Silently, Small Stature)
01: Rogue(1): Toughness
02: Rogue(2): {Evasion}
03: Fighter(1): Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus: Dagger
04: Fighter(2): DEX+1, Blind Fight, (DEX=19)
05: Rogue(3): {Uncanny Dodge I}
06: Fighter(3): Knockdown
07: Rogue(4)
08: Fighter(4): DEX+1, Weapon Specialization: Dagger, (DEX=20)
09: Rogue(5): Improved Knockdown
10: Champion of Torm(1)
11: Champion of Torm(2): Two-Weapon Fighting
12: Rogue(6): DEX+1, Ambidexterity, (DEX=21)
13: Champion of Torm(3): {Smite Evil}
14: Champion of Torm(4): Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
15: Rogue(7): Improved Critical: Dagger
16: Rogue(8): DEX+1, (DEX=22)
17: Rogue(9)
18: Rogue(10): Iron Will, Improved Evasion
19: Rogue(11)
20: Rogue(12): DEX+1, (DEX=23)
21: Champion of Torm(5): Great Dexterity I, (DEX=24)
22: Rogue(13): Defensive Roll
23: Champion of Torm(6): Epic Weapon Focus: Dagger
24: Rogue(14): DEX+1, Great Dexterity II, (DEX=26)
25: Champion of Torm(7)
26: Champion of Torm(8): Epic Weapon Specialization: Dagger
27: Rogue(15): Great Dexterity III, (DEX=27)
28: Rogue(16): DEX+1, Epic Dodge, (DEX=28)
29: Champion of Torm(9)
30: Champion of Torm(10): Great Dexterity IV, Epic Prowess, (DEX=29)
31: Rogue(17)
32: Rogue(18): DEX+1, (DEX=30)
33: Fighter(5): Self Concealment I
34: Fighter(6): Armor Skin
35: Rogue(19): Self Concealment II
36: Rogue(20): DEX+1, Self Concealment III, (DEX=31)
37: Rogue(21)
38: Rogue(22)
39: Rogue(23): Self Concealment IV
40: Rogue(24): DEX+1, Self Concealment V, (DEX=32)

Stats:
Hitpoints: 424
Skillpoints: 334
Saving Throws (Fortitude/Will/Reflex): 30/24/40
Saving Throw bonuses: Traps: +5, Fear: +2
BAB: 27
AB (max, naked): 43 (melee), 41 (ranged)
AC (naked/mundane armor/shield only): 32/34
Spell Casting:
Alignment Changes: 0

Skills:
Disable Trap 43(47), Hide 43(54), Lore 21(23), Move Silently 43(56), Open Lock 43(54), Search 43(45), Set Trap 32(45), Tumble 40(51), UMD 26(25)

01: Disable Trap(4), Hide(4), Move Silently(4), Open Lock(4), Search(4), Set Trap(4), Tumble(4), UMD(4), Save(8)
02: Disable Trap(1), Hide(1), Move Silently(1), Open Lock(1), Search(1), Set Trap(1), Tumble(1), UMD(1), Save(10)
03: Save(14)
04: Save(18)
05: Disable Trap(3), Hide(3), Move Silently(3), Open Lock(3), Search(3), Set Trap(3), Tumble(3), UMD(1), Save(6)
06: Save(10)
07: Disable Trap(2), Hide(2), Move Silently(2), Open Lock(2), Search(2), Set Trap(2), Tumble(2), Save(6)
08: Save(10)
09: Disable Trap(2), Hide(2), Move Silently(2), Open Lock(2), Search(2), Set Trap(2), Tumble(2), Save(6)
10: Save(10)
11: Save(14)
12: Disable Trap(3), Hide(3), Move Silently(3), Open Lock(3), Search(3), Set Trap(3), Tumble(3), Save(3)
13: Save(7)
14: Save(11)
15: Disable Trap(3), Hide(3), Move Silently(3), Open Lock(3), Search(3), Set Trap(3), Tumble(3)
16: Disable Trap(1), Hide(1), Lore(1), Move Silently(1), Open Lock(1), Search(1), Set Trap(1), Tumble(1), UMD(2)
17: Disable Trap(1), Hide(1), Move Silently(1), Open Lock(1), Search(1), Set Trap(1), Tumble(1), UMD(3)
18: Disable Trap(1), Hide(1), Lore(1), Move Silently(1), Open Lock(1), Search(1), Set Trap(1), Tumble(1), UMD(2)
19: Disable Trap(1), Hide(1), Move Silently(1), Open Lock(1), Search(1), Set Trap(1), Tumble(1), UMD(3)
20: Disable Trap(1), Hide(1), Move Silently(1), Open Lock(1), Search(1), Set Trap(1), Tumble(1), Save(3)
21: Save(7)
22: Disable Trap(2), Hide(2), Move Silently(2), Open Lock(2), Search(2), Set Trap(2), Tumble(2), Save(3)
23: Save(7)
24: Disable Trap(2), Hide(2), Move Silently(2), Open Lock(2), Search(2), Set Trap(2), Tumble(2), Save(3)
25: Save(7)
26: Save(11)
27: Disable Trap(3), Hide(3), Move Silently(3), Open Lock(3), Search(3), Set Trap(3), Tumble(3)
28: Disable Trap(1), Hide(1), Move Silently(1), Open Lock(1), Search(1), Set Trap(1), Tumble(1), Save(3)
29: Save(7)
30: Save(11)
31: Disable Trap(3), Hide(3), Move Silently(3), Open Lock(3), Search(3), Set Trap(1), Tumble(3), UMD(2)
32: Disable Trap(1), Hide(1), Move Silently(1), Open Lock(1), Search(1), Tumble(1), UMD(4)
33: Save(4)
34: Save(8)
35: Disable Trap(3), Hide(3), Move Silently(3), Open Lock(3), Search(3), Tumble(3)
36: Disable Trap(1), Hide(1), Move Silently(1), Open Lock(1), Search(1), Tumble(1), UMD(4)
37: Disable Trap(1), Hide(1), Lore(4), Move Silently(1), Open Lock(1), Search(1), Tumble(1)
38: Disable Trap(1), Hide(1), Lore(5), Move Silently(1), Open Lock(1), Search(1)
39: Disable Trap(1), Hide(1), Lore(5), Move Silently(1), Open Lock(1), Search(1)
40: Disable Trap(1), Hide(1), Lore(5), Move Silently(1), Open Lock(1), Search(1)

Modifié par Empyre65, 02 février 2013 - 06:22 .

[Rolo Kipp]

<quite astounded...>

Empyre65 wrote...
If you try to be both a caster and a thief, you won't do either very well, so since you are playing 2 campaigns, I suggest you do one of each.

Of course you must be right :-)

<...to find he's not very well>

[Empyre65]

I'm sorry, Rolo. You're the exception. You do it well. I should have thought that through and realized that what I said was at least potentially insulting.

Thinking about it some more, Rolo's approach wouldn't be so bad at all. He'd wind up at about Wizard 27 / Rogue 13. He would actually be a pretty good Rogue, with no more than 2 levels of not-Rogue in a row (just like the build I posted), so the Rogue skills wouldn't get too far behind. The spell penetration would be not very good (overcoming spell resistance), however. Oh, and the high INT required for the Wizard would mean lots of skill points for the Rogue.

Modifié par Empyre65, 02 février 2013 - 07:56 .

[HipMaestro]

There are 2 different environments so figure on 2 different build "schedules", assuming you want to optimize them for those 2 campaigns (I consider SoU/HotU as a single campaign because that is how they were designed).

With the OC, your toon will be limited to a maximum of 18 levels by the end of the campaign.  That means that most prestige classes will be impractical due the heavy upfront investment to qualify for them. CoT is a rare exception. 

The last wizard I played through the OC was a Wiz 17/Rog 1 who exploited the skill synergy between wiz INT and rogue skills to recover/set all traps and gain access to monk equipment as early as CH 1.  I took the single rogue at level 8 as a skill dump level only with the added benefit of access to shortbow & rapier so that the special crafting available had some merit.  It happened to be a gnome with starting INT & CON set at 18.  Grabbed +2AC from Tumble 10 and 11 pts to ea. of Disable/Set Traps & UMD.  IIRC spare points went to Search to make traps easier to spot from a distance.  Used a Umber Hulk polymorph, w/ext. haste, empowered Bull's, ext. Death Armor for Ch 1 melee skirmishes (like that Gauntlet combat against uber SR foes).  In Ch 2, Tensor's will have access to all 3 recipro shields.  With high CON you can take lots of damage without needing healing.  Imp Expertise will get your AC into the 40's easily but beware that some environments have nerfed Expertise for casters.  You can cetainly opt with sorc/rog, but will lose the skill synergy big time.  BTW, if you don't mind the sacrifice, Craft Wand does work in the OC (wands of ILMS can be handy) though charges will be rather paltry unless you save/reload.

SoU/HotU... figure 28 levels max (about level 14-15 in SoU). You have lots of flexibility here.  In order to take advantage of the weapon enhancements, I recommend a cleric/monk or equivalent class synergy.  However arcanists gain access to their own personal construct so that could be fun as well.  A similar template to the OC wiz/rog would work well.  IMO SoU is the toughest module series to complete because the combat is so well-balanced for the character level.

Mostly, it depends on your own playstyle which build is best for you.  For example, if you are not a planner, using traps to supplement your attack by thinning numbers may not appeal to you.  Lots of options are available but deciding where you want your combat prowess to mature is the key.  Level 40 builds that reach optimization near the end of the build (like druid dragon builds) will be nearly worthless unless used on a level 40 (or higher) server.

[Rolo Kipp]

<grinning...>

Empyre65 wrote...
I'm sorry, Rolo. You're the exception. You do it well. I should have thought that through and realized that what I said was at least potentially insulting.

No offense taken, though I hope I've also given none :-) <he does tend to mock absolutes...>

But you make me want to clarify my point: Whatever you *love* to play, you can make work, even with "handicaps" based on game mechanics. But you have to do your homework, learn the mechanics.

The epic builds that are really well documented are a fantastic resource for players new to the game, but not new to gaming. They explain in detail the most efficient/powerful builds. But that's only one (major!) aspect of your character. You have to *enjoy* playing the character, too.

Sometime in the middle of the UO beta, in a frantic/intense multi-player free-for-all I learned for the first time the meaning of "griefer" and completely lost my interest in PvP. And fixated my interest in *playing*. I've since become a confirmed RP/Explorer/crafter. I did it in UO (beta & production) for 2 years and in EQ (alpha/beta & production) for 2 years. I enjoyed the hell out of those games while friends of mine skyrocketed in level and burned out, abandoning the games as soon as every new (and disappointing) thing became available.

I've been involved with NwN since before alpha. Still here :-)

You've heard the expression "Do what you love to do and you'll never work a day in your life"? 
Play what you love to play and you'll never lose. =)

That's not for everyone.
But it's advice you don't seem to see all that often when people ask "What's the best...?"

<...even while he picks pockets>

[Sir Adril]

Rolo Kipp wrote...

Whatever you *love* to play, you can make work, even with "handicaps" based on game mechanics. But you have to do your homework, learn the mechanics.

I absolutely agree, play what you love, just learn to optimize it a bit. I've had some rather odd success with classes that really shouldn't be good bedfellows, let alone be a class combination you'd consider using. I'm not too crazy about the spell flinging classes, I tend to play tanks with ranged capability (fighters, rangers), as opposed to nuclear silos (wizards, sorcerers), but I think Sorcerer/Paladin would be pretty potent. You wouldn't have to dip far into Paladin to gain the benefits either.

With a high CHA for your Divine Grace (add CHA bonus to all saving throws), Divine Health (immunity to disease), and Lay On Hands (heal Paladin Levels x CHA bonus) at Pal lvl 1, and your Smite Evil and Aura of Courage at Pal lvl 2, you're setting yourself up for some benefits that will help a lot of classes. You'll sacrifice a little bit of spellcasting for the extra hit points, weapon and armor proficiencies the Paladin gives you, but it might be worthwhile. It gets better at epic levels when you can take Automatic Still Spell, which eliminates your armor check penalty for casting. I've also combined Paladin and Fighter before to gain from Weapon Specialization (you'll need four levels of fighter to get it). If you do add your Fighter levels to this already potent build, it's probably best to take them late so you don't short yourself in Paladin and Sorcerer early on - at epic levels it will open up Epic Weapon Specialization for you.

Actually... now I've written all that out, it sounds like I'd enjoy that class combination.

[Westan Willows]

Sir Adril wrote...

Rolo Kipp wrote...

Whatever you *love* to play, you can make work, even with "handicaps" based on game mechanics. But you have to do your homework, learn the mechanics.

I absolutely agree, play what you love, just learn to optimize it a bit. I've had some rather odd success with classes that really shouldn't be good bedfellows, let alone be a class combination you'd consider using. I'm not too crazy about the spell flinging classes, I tend to play tanks with ranged capability (fighters, rangers), as opposed to nuclear silos (wizards, sorcerers), but I think Sorcerer/Paladin would be pretty potent. You wouldn't have to dip far into Paladin to gain the benefits either.

With a high CHA for your Divine Grace (add CHA bonus to all saving throws), Divine Health (immunity to disease), and Lay On Hands (heal Paladin Levels x CHA bonus) at Pal lvl 1, and your Smite Evil and Aura of Courage at Pal lvl 2, you're setting yourself up for some benefits that will help a lot of classes. You'll sacrifice a little bit of spellcasting for the extra hit points, weapon and armor proficiencies the Paladin gives you, but it might be worthwhile. It gets better at epic levels when you can take Automatic Still Spell, which eliminates your armor check penalty for casting. I've also combined Paladin and Fighter before to gain from Weapon Specialization (you'll need four levels of fighter to get it). If you do add your Fighter levels to this already potent build, it's probably best to take them late so you don't short yourself in Paladin and Sorcerer early on - at epic levels it will open up Epic Weapon Specialization for you.

Actually... now I've written all that out, it sounds like I'd enjoy that class combination.

 Interesting. I have been trying to make a Fighter/Sorcerer/RDD and not getting far. maybe I should try Paladin/Sorcerer/rdd?
:happy:

[HipMaestro]

Westan Willows wrote...
 Interesting. I have been trying to make a Fighter/Sorcerer/RDD and not getting far. maybe I should try Paladin/Sorcerer/rdd?

A problem adding RDD into campaigns with a relatively short lifespan is that melee potential and casting potential evolve too slowly together.  So, except for how lenient the OC was designed, the effectiveness comes very late with a cap of clvl 18.  The SoU/HotU series is a better opportunity with 28 levels or so to take full advantage of RDD features, but SoU could be very tough to deal with having only 13-15 levels to develop the combo and the same issue as with the OC applies.

Paladin/Sorcerer is a perfect synergy providing almost instant melee capabilities with Divine Might/Divine Shield and Divine Grace saves without significantly diminishing your casting prowess... all in two pally levels.  Typically, the best combat potential in either case is either 4 or 8 levels of RDD pre-epic and picking up the wings after clvl 20. 

Modifié par HipMaestro, 20 octobre 2013 - 02:20 .

[Empyre65]

Earlier this year, I played this build in the OC, followed by the Aribeth's Redemption series. I got RDD 10 before the end of the OC and Dev Crit before the end of the Aribeth's Redemption series.

Level 40 Dragon (Bard 11 / Fighter 14 / Red Dragon Disciple 15)
Human, Non-Lawful
Playable 1 - 40, PvM
Designed for the OC plus follow-up modules like Aribeth series

Abilities:
STR: 16 (40)
DEX: 14
CON: 12 (14)
WIS: 8
INT: 14 (16)
CHA: 12 (14)

Leveling Guide:
Human: (Quick to Master)
01: Bard(1): Toughness, Power Attack
02: Bard(2)
03: Fighter(1): Cleave, Weapon Focus: Scimitar
04: Fighter(2): STR+1, Blind Fight, (STR=17)
05: Fighter(3)
06: Red Dragon Disciple(1): Knockdown
07: Red Dragon Disciple(2): (STR=19)
08: Red Dragon Disciple(3): STR+1, (STR=20)
09: Red Dragon Disciple(4): Dodge, (STR=22)
10: Red Dragon Disciple(5)
11: Red Dragon Disciple(6)
12: Bard(3): STR+1, Improved Critical: Scimitar, (STR=23)
13: Red Dragon Disciple(7): (CON=14)
14: Red Dragon Disciple(8)
15: Red Dragon Disciple(9): Mobility, (INT=16)
16: Red Dragon Disciple(10): STR+1, {Darkvision}, (STR=28), (CHA=14)
17: Bard(4)
18: Fighter(4): Lightning Reflexes, Weapon Specialization: Scimitar
19: Fighter(5)
20: Fighter(6): STR+1, Great Cleave, (STR=29)
21: Fighter(7): Epic Weapon Focus: Scimitar
22: Bard(5)
23: Fighter(8): Overwhelming Critical: Scimitar
24: Fighter(9): STR+1, Great Strength I, (STR=31)
25: Fighter(10): Devastating Critical: Scimitar
26: Fighter(11)
27: Bard(6): Great Strength II, (STR=32)
28: Fighter(12): STR+1, Epic Weapon Specialization: Scimitar, (STR=33)
29: Red Dragon Disciple(11)
30: Fighter(13): Great Strength III, (STR=34)
31: Fighter(14): Epic Prowess
32: Bard(7): STR+1, (STR=35)
33: Red Dragon Disciple(12): Great Strength IV, (STR=36)
34: Bard(8)
35: Red Dragon Disciple(13)
36: Bard(9): STR+1, Great Strength V, (STR=38)
37: Bard(10)
38: Red Dragon Disciple(14): Armor Skin
39: Bard(11): Great Strength VI, (STR=39)
40: Red Dragon Disciple(15): STR+1, (STR=40)

Stats:
Hitpoints: 470
Skillpoints: 268
Saving Throws (Fortitude/Will/Reflex): 25/22/23
Saving Throw bonuses: Spells: +9
BAB: 26
AB (max, naked): 45 (melee), 29 (ranged)
AC (naked/mundane armor/shield only): 27/37
Spell Casting: Bard(4)
Alignment Changes: 0

Skills:
Discipline 43(58), Listen 43(42), Lore 18(32), Perform 16(18), Spellcraft 42(45), Spot 43(42), Tumble 40(42), UMD 23(25)

01: Discipline(4), Listen(4), Lore(4), Perform(2), Spellcraft(3), Tumble(4), UMD(4), Save(3)
02: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Lore(1), Perform(3), Tumble(1), Save(3)
03: Discipline(1), Lore(1), Save(6)
04: Discipline(1), Lore(1), Save(9)
05: Discipline(1), Lore(1), Save(12)
06: Discipline(1), Listen(4), Spot(9), Save(3)
07: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Spot(1), Save(5)
08: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Spot(1), Save(7)
09: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Spot(1), Save(9)
10: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Spot(1), Save(11)
11: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Spot(1), Save(13)
12: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Perform(3), Tumble(10), UMD(5)
13: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Spellcraft(1), Spot(2)
14: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Spellcraft(2), Spot(1)
15: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Spellcraft(1), Spot(1), Save(1)
16: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Spellcraft(1), Spot(1), Save(3)
17: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Tumble(5), UMD(4)
18: Discipline(1), Save(5)
19: Discipline(1), Save(10)
20: Discipline(1), Save(15)
21: Discipline(1), Save(20)
22: Discipline(1), Listen(5), Perform(2), Spellcraft(10), Tumble(5), UMD(5)
23: Discipline(1), Save(5)
24: Discipline(1), Save(10)
25: Discipline(1), Save(15)
26: Discipline(1), Save(20)
27: Discipline(1), Listen(5), Spellcraft(7), Tumble(5), UMD(5), Save(5)
28: Discipline(1), Save(10)
29: Discipline(1), Listen(2), Spot(13)
30: Discipline(1), Lore(4), Save(1)
31: Discipline(1), Save(6)
32: Discipline(1), Listen(3), Perform(3), Spellcraft(2), Tumble(5)
33: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Spot(4)
34: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Lore(1), Spellcraft(4), Tumble(1)
35: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Spellcraft(2), Spot(2)
36: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Lore(5), Tumble(1)
37: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Spellcraft(3), Tumble(3)
38: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Spellcraft(1), Spot(3)
39: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Perform(3), Spellcraft(3)
40: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Spellcraft(2), Spot(2)

Modifié par Empyre65, 20 octobre 2013 - 10:10 .

[MagicalMaster]

Why would you do that versus something like Bard 20/Fighter 10/RDD 10? Or more specifically, why go past RDD 10 versus getting more Fighter or Bard levels?

[Empyre65]

This gives me all the feats I need, +1 AC for the 15th level of RDD, some later Spot skill dumps, and 5 levels of d12 hit dice.

If you prefer, you could drop 5 levels of RDD for 2 levels of Fighter (to replace the lost RDD feat) and 3 levels of Bard (for a slightly stronger song). For this purpose, the point is moot because you probably wouldn't reach the 11th level of RDD anyway.

[MagicalMaster]

Well, if you could trade those 5 RDD levels in a vacuum for bard levels, for example, you'd pick up 3 AC. I'd also probably go 8 Bard/4 Fighter/8 RDD pre-epic. Not really important for the OC or anything, but that build can be hugely optimized.

[Empyre65]

The goal of this build was to get RDD 10 in the OC, and I seriously kicked butt. I used Tomi in Chapter 1 for his trap-handling skills, and soloed after that. Then, Aribeth and I steamrolled through the Redemption of Aribeth series.

To show that I can, here's a build I optimized for level 40, which I plan to play soon in your Siege of the Heavens. I wanted a build with reasonably good AB and AC. This gets 48 AB and 36 AC, unbuffed:

Dragon Warrior (Fighter 22 / Bard 8 / Red Dragon Disciple 10)
Human, Non-Lawful
Playable 1 - 40, PvM, PvP

Abilities:
STR: 18 (42)
DEX: 12
CON: 12 (14)
WIS: 8
INT: 14 (16)
CHA: 8 (10)

Leveling Guide:
Human: (Quick to Master)
01: Fighter(1): Luck of Heroes, Power Attack, Weapon Focus: Scimitar
02: Bard(1)
03: Fighter(2): Cleave, Blind Fight
04: Fighter(3): STR+1, (STR=19)
05: Fighter(4): Weapon Specialization: Scimitar
06: Red Dragon Disciple(1): Knockdown
07: Bard(2)
08: Red Dragon Disciple(2): STR+1, (STR=22)
09: Red Dragon Disciple(3): Toughness
10: Red Dragon Disciple(4): (STR=24)
11: Fighter(5)
12: Bard(3): STR+1, Lightning Reflexes, (STR=25)
13: Fighter(6): Improved Critical: Scimitar
14: Fighter(7)
15: Fighter(8): Iron Will, Improved Knockdown
16: Fighter(9): STR+1, (STR=26)
17: Fighter(10): Called Shot
18: Bard(4): Lingering Song
19: Fighter(11)
20: Fighter(12): STR+1, Great Cleave, (STR=27)
21: Fighter(13): Epic Weapon Focus: Scimitar
22: Bard(5)
23: Fighter(14): Overwhelming Critical: Scimitar
24: Fighter(15): STR+1, Great Strength I, (STR=29)
25: Fighter(16): Devastating Critical: Scimitar
26: Fighter(17)
27: Bard(6): Great Strength II, (STR=30)
28: Fighter(18): STR+1, Epic Weapon Specialization: Scimitar, (STR=31)
29: Red Dragon Disciple(5)
30: Red Dragon Disciple(6): Great Strength III, (STR=32)
31: Red Dragon Disciple(7): (CON=14)
32: Red Dragon Disciple(8): STR+1, (STR=33)
33: Red Dragon Disciple(9): Great Strength IV, (STR=34), (INT=16)
34: Red Dragon Disciple(10): {Darkvision}, (STR=38), (CHA=10)
35: Fighter(19)
36: Fighter(20): STR+1, Great Strength V, Epic Prowess, (STR=40)
37: Bard(7)
38: Fighter(21)
39: Fighter(22): Great Strength VI, Armor Skin, (STR=41)
40: Bard(8): STR+1, (STR=42)

Stats:
Hitpoints: 472
Skillpoints: 238
Saving Throws (Fortitude/Will/Reflex): 26/24/23
Saving Throw bonuses: Spells: +9
BAB: 28
AB (max, naked): 48 (melee), 30 (ranged)
AC (naked/mundane armor/shield only): 25/36
Spell Casting: Bard(0)
Alignment Changes: 0

Skills:
Discipline 43(59), Listen 43(42), Lore 25(36), Perform 15(15), Spellcraft 42(45), Tumble 40(41), UMD 30(30)

01: Discipline(4), Lore(4), Save(12)
02: Discipline(1), Listen(5), Lore(1), Perform(4), Spellcraft(3), Tumble(5)
03: Discipline(1), Lore(1), Save(3)
04: Discipline(1), Lore(1), Save(6)
05: Discipline(1), Lore(1), Save(9)
06: Discipline(1), Listen(4), Lore(1), Save(8)
07: Listen(1), Perform(3), Tumble(5), UMD(6)
08: Discipline(2), Listen(1), Save(2)
09: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Save(5)
10: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Save(8)
11: Discipline(1), Save(12)
12: Discipline(1), Listen(2), Perform(3), Spellcraft(3), Tumble(5), UMD(5)
13: Discipline(1), Save(4)
14: Discipline(1), Save(8)
15: Discipline(1), Save(12)
16: Discipline(1), Save(16)
17: Discipline(1), Save(20)
18: Discipline(1), Listen(6), Spellcraft(10), Tumble(5), UMD(5)
19: Discipline(1), Save(4)
20: Discipline(1), Save(8)
21: Discipline(1), Save(12)
22: Discipline(1), Listen(4), Spellcraft(4), Tumble(5), UMD(5)
23: Discipline(1), Save(4)
24: Discipline(1), Save(8)
25: Discipline(1), Save(12)
26: Discipline(1), Save(16)
27: Discipline(1), Listen(5), Perform(3), Spellcraft(4), Tumble(5), UMD(5)
28: Discipline(1), Save(4)
29: Discipline(1), Listen(2), Spellcraft(6)
30: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Spellcraft(3)
31: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Lore(3)
32: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Lore(3)
33: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Lore(3)
34: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Spellcraft(4)
35: Discipline(1), Save(5)
36: Discipline(1), Save(10)
37: Discipline(1), Listen(3), Tumble(10), UMD(4)
38: Discipline(1), Lore(5)
39: Discipline(1), Lore(2), Save(3)
40: Discipline(1), Listen(3), Perform(2), Spellcraft(5)

Modifié par Empyre65, 20 octobre 2013 - 11:27 .

[HipMaestro]

MagicalMaster wrote...
Well, if you could trade those 5 RDD levels in a vacuum for bard levels, for example, you'd pick up 3 AC. I'd also probably go 8 Bard/4 Fighter/8 RDD pre-epic. Not really important for the OC or anything, but that build can be hugely optimized.

Agreed.  A much more optimized spread.  One should not allow the relative observed performance of a ny build on a learning campaign like the OC bias their build dynamics common sense.  Try 10 RDD pre-epic vs. 8 pre-epic in the SoU-HotU series and report which one was the stronger overall design.  

But even theincreased challenge level of the expansions won't emphasize clearly the shortcomings of a purposely-gimped build as will an environment specifically-designed to test levels 20 & higher both PvM & PvP.

This topic is addressing build designs Lvl 28 and under.  Those builds designed for higher levels are hardly organized with enough flexibility to maximize the potential at subsidiary levels.

Why encourage an unoptimized build approach when a better one is there for taking with some careful planning?

[Westan Willows]

How would a Paladin/Sorcerer work?

[MagicalMaster]

Empyre65 wrote...

To show that I can, here's a build I optimized for level 40, which I plan to play soon in your Siege of the Heavens. I wanted a build with reasonably good AB and AC. This gets 48 AB and 36 AC, unbuffed:

I guess my main question is this: what are you trying to accomplish with this build?

If you're aiming for "Plays like a fighter but better than pure fighter due to RDD" then you want to shift to 26 Fighter/4 bard/10 RDD or even 28 Fighter/2 Bard/10 RDD

If you're aiming for "Melee bard with RDD abilities" then you want to shift to something like 20 Bard/10 Fighter/10 RDD  -- even without casting many spells at all (or any spells), you'll have a far more powerful Bard Song and Curse Song (instead of +2 AB for yourself, you'll have +7 AB/AC for yourself in effect).

Right now your build doesn't seem to cater to the strengths of either approach.

[MagicalMaster]

Westan Willows wrote...

How would a Paladin/Sorcerer work?

Meaning what?  Usually a Sorcerer takes like 1 level of paladin to gain a massive saving throw bonus and that is it.  It's most like Sorcerer (P.S. One paladin level).

In epic modules sometimes you'll see 3 paladin levels along with Divine Shield and Autostill Spell to have a full plated caster but it's really not worth it for a level 20 world.

[HipMaestro]

Westan Willows wrote...
How would a Paladin/Sorcerer work?

The only way I know to do it within 18 levels is Src15/Pal2/Clc1 with Lvl 1 Src Power attack, Lvl 2 Clc, Lvl 3 Pal Div Might, Lvl 4-5 Src, Lvl 6 Pal Div Shield, Lvl 7-18 Sorc.  I used a Str13/Dex 10/Con 14/Wis 11/Int 12/Cha 16(20) split but you can juggle it around a bit if you like.  Just keep a Str13 min is all.  At least the cleric level isn't wasted with Divine Favor & Shield of Faith available.  Dunno which domains to recommend, though.  Trickery & War perhaps.  Down side is you'll only reach level 7 sorc spells by clvl 18.  But that is one example of the trade-offs trying to multiclass in an abridged campaign.  In the SoU/HotU series, you'll get all sorc spells, for sure.

And, btw... for the record.. the Div Might & Div Shield can be triggered while polymorphed. If you can Empower Eagle's Splendor you'll gain an additional +3 to the CHA modifier. That would be +8 divine damage and +8 dodge AC... that's without any +CHA gear.

Shouldn't need to wear armor, really.  I never do with arcanists except like MM suggested you have room for all the autostill feats or don't mind managing still slots.  That's a matter of personal taste IMO.  Even with ~28 levels by the end of HotU, Autostill feats is too costly.  Need a Level 40 environment for those I think.

Modifié par HipMaestro, 21 octobre 2013 - 11:11 .

[Westan Willows]

Thanks HipMaestro I will give that built a try. Now I wonder if I can work in Src/Pal/RDD.

[HipMaestro]

Westan Willows wrote...
Thanks HipMaestro I will give that built a try. Now I wonder if I can work in Src/Pal/RDD.

Not in the OC, anyway. Not enough levels unless you want to gimp it just for wings... assuming you want Div Might/Div Shield as beneficial feats rather than just thrown in for looks.

SoU/HotU would be better suited with 28 levels to play with.  But even then you will need to decide if you want to focus on spellcasting or melee presence.  It would take the 4 Pal levels in pre-epic, probably either 4 or 8 RDD pre-epic which leaves only room for 14 levels of Src and that limits spellcasting to level 7.  That's a given if you are looking to acquire wings. That's more of a melee mage build.

A more spell-focused version would be Pal 4/Sorc 18/RDD 6 which would only net +4 STR and the d10 HP HD. At least you would have access to the level 9 polymorphs and other high level spells that way.

As others have stated already, multiclassing for short campaigns will dilute the intrinsic power of most builds.  Dump levels like rogue, bard, monk, etc. have some real value, but a build that relies on a huge chunk of levels like RDD does, can become unmanageable without gimping the final result.

Yes, it's true that one can just keep playing any build up to level 40 using different modules with CR levels suited for XP to establish an optimization, but that won't help the performance in the individual campaigns which rely on optimizations for those levels specifically. Most of the power builds are designed to achieve prowess in combat for a particular server level, usually 20, 30 or 40.

Another thing to keep in mind when playing SP is versatility and flexibility at the cost of power-gaming.  Sure, you can create a kick-butt toon by exploiting some combos but that won't help much dealing with customizations built into the module like traps, persuade checks, ability checks (like DEX as a common one), alignment or race restrictions and even gender (like in the OC).  So skills can play a significant role in just progressing where power is just one factor in the equation of success.

Apologies for the sermon, but I feel these are important issues to keep in mind when designing a build for a constrained SP environment and pertains to the OP topic.  Actually, I don't recall ever seeing a single 1-40 level module offered on the Vault... ever!  Doubt if they even exist.

I suppose if I had to make a choice, I would go with the Pal 4/Src 14/RDD 10 version which I am sure could be tailored enough to play well at all levels in SoU & HotU.  If you would like a full build example, I can message one.  Don't know how Empyre (or anyone else for that matter!) pastes a full build so nicely into the forum editor, but mine are full of line breaks, tabs and crap that makes it almost unreadable without lots of re-editting (possibly a browser issue?  dunno).  Message's don't funk it up at all.  Odd, eh? 

Let me know. I'd be happy to pass one along.

[Westan Willows]

I am working on the Sorc/Pal/Clc now. If I do Pal/Sorc/RDD then I would go melee, with one sorc lv

[Westan Willows]

I am finding Divine Shield to be better than the Mage spell Shield.