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[silverexile17s]

[quote]Maxster_ wrote...

[quote]The Interloper wrote...

[quote]Maxster_ wrote...
They could never finish said reaper, there is no point for Shepard to fight them other than to save some minor colonies(major like Terra Nova a protected by fleet). [/quote]

Not on their own. That's not the point. The point was that Shepard was looking for a way to stop the reapers and the collectors were the best lead (that the writers wrote into the story, anyway). It's true that ME2 mischaracterizes this quest somwhat as being all about "saving the colonies" and they should have had the crucible plans in the collector base or something to flesh it out, but from the standpoint of the core plot there's nothing wrong with Shepard pursuing the collectors.
[/quote]
Shepard was not looking to stop the reapers in ME2. Collectors were never a threat to Systems Alliance.
Harbringer is a moron, thinking one weak transport is enough to destroy SA fleets.
ME2 is just a meaningless asspulled filler, which adds completely nothing to a story. And raises some questions about overarching series plot - like why Collectors and Harbringer wasn't helping Sovereign.

Instead of finding a way to stop reapers, Shepard just fought a meaningless battle with a non-threating enemy. It could be just some mercs, same result.
Of course, there is nothing wrong for Shepard to shoot some mercs for no reason, other than self-defence. Or collectors for that matter. Of course, SA fleet could easily destroy said collectors, if SA leadership hasn't went full retard, but still... It is just a contrived nonsense, meaningless filler.
And there is no point for Shepard to fight collectors.
[quote]
[quote]Maxster_ wrote...
There is no Dark Energy plot.Stop presenting your headcanon as a fact.[/quote]

Lead writer Drew Karpyshyn explicitly stated in an interview (at strategy informer)that while they were writing mass effect 2, they had the dark energy ending in mind and thus put in things like Haestrom and the human reaper to set it up for ME3. That's not headcannon. Sorry.
[/quote]
Lol.
It is exactly is a headcanon. There is no plot related to a dark energy, only few mentions about dark energy. This way you can also say that dark energy was in ME1, because numerous mentions of dark energy in the codex.
And when you tried to "prove" your statement of dark energy plot being in-universe, with and out-of-universe "proof" - it shows.
[quote]
[quote]Maxster_ wrote...
Object to what, exactly? Your baseless statement that garbage writing in Tuchanka arc, which led to nonsensical exposition is insignificant?Same as is in Priority:Earth, so what's the difference? Because you like that mission, you are willing to ignore nonsense and garbage writing. [/quote]

Again, I explained in detail what the difference was. It's not a matter of exposition and detail. It's a matter of basic narrative consistancy, character-driven action and player choice. Good pacing helps. Tuchanka has these things. Priority Earth does not.
[/quote]
It does not matter for you. Suddenly retarded reaper destroyer, idiotic battle with worm, pointless air strike, which had no chance of succeeding from the start, Cerberus asspulled for completely no reason - for you, it is consistant and coherent narrative. But not for me
[quote]
And come to think of it... I believe it was you that said that "Derperus" had no reason to interfere with the genophage mission, but as both pro-human racists and as servants of the reapers they had every reason to not want the Krogan race to be cured and to enter the war. What gives?
[/quote]
Krogans are no threat to the reapers. They have no fleet. They could easily obliterated from orbit by a minor reaper task force.
There is no reason for reapers to even be there.
As for Cerberus - "lol-indoctrination" is not an explanation to anything. It is just a sign of bad writing. And for Cerberus being pro-human - krogans are no threat to humanity, reapers and council are. Former is a direct threat, council races - potential.
[quote]
[quote]Maxster_ wrote...
His base is not council chamber.[/quote]

Yeah, it basically is. He's trusted there. It's practically his home country.
[/quote]
Council chamber does not equals Citadel. Council chamber, as is presidium - are restricted area, protected by C-Sec.
[quote]
[quote]Maxster_ wrote...
And one spectre is not a threat to a C-Sec. He would be killed very fast.[/quote]

Lol, some street cops like Harkin and Bailey versus the most dangerous assassin in the galaxy, who can take on whole platoons of hardened combat troopers, who is legally considered to be above the law and thus C-Sec has no authority to stop him from going where he pleases anyway, and the cops think he's on their side to boot? That seems totally implausible to you? Plus he could smuggle mercs or geth onto the station to help. He's done it before. 
[/quote]
That nonsense comes right from comics.
What could one person do against batallion of Turians, with drones and heavy weapons? Exactly nothing, only a slight possibility to get away with his life.

I guess you never read codex about C-Sec branches.
link.
[quote] Divisions

• Enforcement: Uniformed officers who patrol the Citadel,
  dispense discipline for minor infractions, resolve disputes, and respond
  to emergencies.
• Investigation: Detectives who gather evidence, solve crimes, and bring their perpetrators to justice.
• Customs: Officers who screen the passengers and cargo
  that pass through the Citadel's ports, confiscate contraband, and arrest
  smugglers.
• Network: Technicians who deal with "cybercrimes", such as identity theft, copyright theft, hacking, viral attacks, and illegal AI.
• Special Response: Officers who deal with hostage
  situations, bombs, and heavily armed criminals. In the event the Citadel
  is attacked, they are the front line of interior defense, armed with
  military-grade weaponry.
• Patrol: The ships crewed by the Patrol division serve
  "coast guard" functions, such as search and rescue, piracy suppression,
  and interdiction of illegally transported materials. They are not used
  to defend the Citadel from naval attack; that task is left to the Citadel Fleet.

[/quote]
[quote]
As for the citadel fleet, you forget that the fleet Soveriegn fought was not the normal fleet; it was a special "joint-species" fleet assembled in response to the threat of Saren. Or if that joint-species fleet was the Citadel fleet, it still needed to be assembled, and it wouldn't have been assembled if Saren hadn't telegraphed his hostile intentions months in advance.
[/quote]
You have no idea what you are talking about.
Citadel fleet
[quote]

Citadel Fleet 
The Citadel Fleet is the main space defense force of the Citadel. The flagship of the fleet is the asari dreadnought Destiny Ascension, the most powerful ship of the Council races. The Citadel Fleet consists of a mixed group of turian, salarian, and asari vessels, though the greater number of them are turian, due to the turians' peacekeeping role.
The exact number of ships in the Council's fleet is unknown, but there were enough vessels to patrol every mass relay linking Citadel space to the Terminus Systems and still leave a force stationed to protect the Citadel. Ambassador Udina claimed that the Citadel Fleet was large enough to secure the entire Attican Traverse if the Council wished.

[/quote]
And about Council's actions in response to Shepard's warning.
[quote]
Battle of the Citadel 
In the aftermath of the battle on Virmire, the Council deployed its fleet to every relay in Citadel space, believing that Saren Arterius wouldn't dare attack the Citadel directly. This strategy proved to be ineffective when the massive dreadnought Sovereign and a fleet of geth
warships launched a surprise attack against the Citadel. During the
attack, the Destiny Ascension ordered Citadel control to close the
station's Wards, transforming it into an impenetrable fortress. Unfortunately, Saren had already used the Conduit
to infiltrate the Citadel and shut down both the Citadel and the mass
relay network, subjecting the diminished Citadel Fleet to the full force
of the geth attack and preventing any reinforcements from arriving.
Sovereign then broke through the fleet as the Citadel's Wards closed
behind it.
The Citadel Council was evacuated to the Destiny Ascension, but the ship was unable to fight her way through the hordes of geth ships accompanying Sovereign. Commander Shepard eventually reactivated the mass relays, allowing the Alliance Navy and the Normandy
to aid what was left of the Citadel Fleet. It was then up to Shepard to
decide whether to have the reinforcements save the Council and the
Destiny Ascension, or to let them die while they waited for the Ward
arms to reopen.
[/quote]
[quote]
[quote]Maxster_ wrote...
I don't enjoy garbage writing, that's for sure.[/quote]

What's the deal with Saren's plan, then? You seem to have enjoyed that.
[/quote]
If you have no idea about ME plot, Saren motives, C-Sec structure, and Citadel Fleet - that doesn't mean that ME1 was badly written. It means, that you either not paying attention, or, you just want to ME1 not to make sense, and thus deliberately ignore plot points and lore of MEU.
[quote]
[quote]Maxster_ wrote...
ME3 fails because it's story being pure nonsense, which dumbed down characters and destroyed overarching series plot. That is of course only part of the reason, other being horrible dialogues and exposition(like intro) aka bad writing, nonsensical garbage like Citadel coup, autodialogue, fetch quests, reaper-chase minigame(lore-butchering nonsense) etc. Ending, of course, is a whole other level of garbage writing, but ME3 is already horrible written and horrible designed long before that.[/quote]

Now you're just throwing out vague insults. "Pure nonsense." "Nonsensical garbage." And there's a distinction between "flawed" and "horrible." 
[/quote]
I can prove anything i said in this quote. In contrast to you
[quote]
[quote]Maxster_ wrote...
Reapers just sat in dark space for no reason for a thousands of years of Sovereign's machinations, when they could just fly into a galaxy in 0.5-3 years losing completely nothing.[/quote]

Wrong; they lose the element of surprise, and waiting for the Citadel relay to be activated gives them the ability to take control of the citadel and the relay network. Without that, the attack becomes much messier and they take much heavier casulties then they do in most cycles. Plus, the immortal machine gods are, as it turns out, fairly patient. This is all explained more than once.
[/quote]
Except if reapers can fly into a galaxy in 0.5-3 years, losing completely nothing - there is absolutely no reason for Sovereign to act.
Especially when you said that "immortal machine gods are, as it turns out, fairly patient".

I like how you disproving yourself
[quote]I don't know how you can sit there and talk about what is and is not nonsensical in this story when, in all honesty, you keep displaying gratuitous gaps in your understanding of series lore. Or my basic argument.
[/quote]
*facedesk*
[/quote]
[*]1) The colonies that were taken, and the events of Paragon Lost, AND the Collectors return in ME3 MP all disprove your claim. And the point was NEVER to take on the entire Alliance - I don't know WHERE you got that from. It was ALL just to get a head-start on the Human Reaper. And it looks like NOW your considering ME2 to be the plot-breaker instead of ME3. And THOUSANDS of people were taken, and the Collectors have proven in both the main storyline (three turian cruisers destroyed without breaking a sweat) and their ME3 Multiplayer experances that they ARE a threat. The Alliance is STILL recovering from the Battle of the Citadel (either trying to replace the ships lost in saving the Council, or solidifing their control in replacing the old one), so they are streached thin. Any additional strain is going to hurt them - especally if they waste resources that Anderson/Hackett think could go to prepping for the Reapers. The POINT is to deprive the Reapers of their forward Command post and end their human reaper, settting them back by taking away their proxies.
[*]2)*Ahem*
[*]www.strategyinformer.com/news/17086/mass-effect-writer-drew-karpyshyn-reveals-original-mass-effect-3-endings
[*]www.polygon.com/gaming/2012/8/20/3256678/original-mass-effect-writer-talks-about-the-possible-endings-for-mass
[*]WHAT was that about a headcannon? Right here from Drew's own mouth - Dark Energy plot was the original plot idea. Seems the only headcannon breaking is yours.
[*]3) I think the one that suddenly went Retard ISN'T the Destroyer. The airstrike keep it distracted from Shepard bringing up the Maw Hammers. And the Reaper getting killed by a threasher maw isn't an impossible way to kill a Reaper. They can be killed in better or worse ways. Or did you FORGET the death of the Human Reaper on foot. And the krogan are considered a threat as is. Curing the genophage could have long-term consiquences for humans if krogan expand again, so of course Cerberus would be concerned. Even more so as Reaper-allies.
[*]4) And yet, in the EC cutscene, we see they sent several Sovergien-class and Destroyer class to Tuchanka when the Crucible was set off. And like I told you BEFORE, they DON'T want to glass the race. They want to harvest them. Convert them into either Destroyers, or in humanities case, a Sovergien-class. They NEVER just glass over a world. And a  krogan race cured of the genophage would be a threat to EVERYONE if not handled properly. Just look at if Wreve is charge. Cerberus would have had every right to be concerned.
[*]5)Still, Spectres would be allowed there for regular access. Shepard sure has clearance. So did Emily Wong and Admiral Kahoku. and even that salarian Chroban to scan the Keepers.
[*]6) I actually agree that C-Sec would be more then prepped to handle Saren. There are two ways to handle rouge Spectres. The FIRST is to send in C-Sec, the SECOND is to send in another Spectre. Since C-Sec is the first called in, they likely are prepped to handle a Spectre. They held out against Cerberus and the Geth well enough.
[*]7) But he's seen YOU do the same for ME3. So it's hard to critizise him for it when YOU hardly have any grasp of the lore in regards to ME3.
[*]8) Yet you haven't proven this:wizard: If you could prove this particular statement, you would have. :wizard:
[*]9) RIGHT THERE, There's your lack of lore comprehension again. It took three years total. NO exceptions, to get from Dark Space to the Galaxy. And they lose much more then if they had the Citadel trap sprung. It's a matter of tactics and efficancy. You act like Sovergien EXPECTED to fail. That's the complete OPPOSATE of the planed intent. Sovergien's sucess would have ment that concealing the Reapers existance would have been usless as they would have arrived with no one able to stop them. The only one disproving themselves is you.
[*]10) No refute AGAIN:wizard:
 

[Galifreya]

That's a great motto for life. It's a terrible motto for media. There are too many movies and video games out there to just say, "The ending never matters, it's about the journey."

NO. There are too many endings in entertainment media. If every movie and video game and TV series ever made had crappy endings, but FANTASTIC journeys....that wouldn't fly. It just wouldn't. Sorry, OP. Your logic is flawed. The destination matters in fictional media.

[The Interloper]

 Silver Exile already went over most of this, so I’ll summarize.

Firstly, your assertion that the Spectres can’t go somewhere C-Sec says they can’t. As the wiki says, 

Mass Effect Wiki _
wrote...Spectres are agents entrusted with extraordinary authority by the Citadel Council, including the power of life and death over the inhabitants of the galaxy … they are generally considered as being above the
law

Now Saren gains two things from the conduit; access to the citadel, which he has been denied, and access for a geth army. But he already had access to the citadel before he was exiled; he could certainly stroll into the council chambers without being stopped, like Shepard(if not, why not?) Plus if he launches the attack without exposing himself as a traitor, he will still be trusted (especially by the council), and could probably use his status to spread confusion as to what was happening. As for an army, we know he not only has elite mercs and assassins on his payroll (so many he can apparently dispose of whole teams of them at a time) and that he can get them onto the citadel, but that he’s smuggled a small geth army, including walking TANKS, past high-tech security systems before. So does he really need the conduit so badly? I think that’s a fair question to ask, since it’s the basis of the whole plot, and Saren loses a lot of time and the element of surprise thanks to his pursuit of it.  As for the citadel fleet, the in-game dialogue paints a different picture from the wiki page. Which I have read, as a matter of fact. Go back and listen to it.

silverexile17s wrote...Since C-Sec is the first called in, they likely are prepped to handle a Spectre. They held out against Cerberus and the Geth well enough.  

 I must contest that. Saren ripped through them so quickly that he had already seized the citadel tower by the time Shepard jumped through the conduit after him, mere minutes after Saren had gone through.

 And just to clarify, both for Max and for Silver, my point is not that Sarens plan breaks the plot, believe it or not. The
story still functions. My point is that things can be enjoyable even if they don’t stand up to close logical scrutiny. The issues with Saren, with the Human Reaper, with Lazarus, and so on could be resolved with clarifying or changed details. In contrast with the ending, in which case clarifying detail actually makes it worse.

Maxster_ wrote...ME2 is just a meaningless asspulled filler, which adds completely nothing to a story

With the current ending, yes, it is meaningless. I agree. I already explained this. 

Maxster_ wrote... Except if reapers can fly into a galaxy in 0.5-3 years, losing completely nothing - there is absolutely no reason for Sovereign to act.

I already explained what they lose. Twice. 

Maxster_ wrote...It is exactly is a headcanon. There is no plot related to a dark energy, only few mentions about dark energy.

I also made points about the human reaper (which is the basis of the whole plot, and the heart of my point) and the writers self-confessed, published intentions, which is just about the opposite of headcannon by the way. You ignored those and only addressed the third, tertiary point I threw in about Haestrom.

Maxster_ wrote... It does not matter for you. Suddenly retarded reaper destroyer, idiotic battle with worm, pointless air strike, which had no chance of succeeding from the start, Cerberus asspulled for completely no reason - for you, it is consistant and coherent narrative. But not for me 

Let’s define things. When I say that the sequence is “narratively consistent on a core level,” I’m talking about not what happens in the scene but why the scene is in the story in the first place. Tuchanka happens because Wrex, Eve, Mordin and Shepard all desire to cure the genophage (or to at least appear to do so). The effects of the genophage, both in reference to individual and generally likable characters (Wrex, Mordin) and the universe as a whole (Krogan culture, Krogan wars) are introduced early in ME1 and developed in ME2. The morality of the genophage is discussed and the distinct possibility of a cure is toyed with in both games. In ME3, the character’s motivations converge with those of Shepard and the main plot (in which you need troops) and you are given the opportunity to decide, once and for all, what you think about the genophage, and whether you’re willing to hurt your friends (or risk another Krogan war) in order to stay true to that choice. The plotline has a clear introduction, development, and conclusion that is spread throughout the trilogy, ties in with the main plot of defeating the reapers, ties in with the arcs of individual characters, and presents several moral choices. This is what I mean when I say “basic coherency” and Shepard killing the Reaper on Tuchanka with a roundhouse kick to the crotch wouldn’t have altered that. That’s a "how." That's detail. Details matter to a point but they were never ME’s strong suit to begin with. 

This is in contrast with the ending, which comes out of nowhere, involves an entirely new conflict that is only relevant to an unlikable new character we have never met, against theoretical killer synthetics that don’t exist, which are fought using technology we don’t understand and whose effects the game barely explores, and all of this is introduced and resolved in five minutes with only paltry attempts at foreshadowing. Ten, with the EC. It is this core disconnect between the very narrative purpose of the ending scene and the rest of the plot that the ending fails. Not because we aren’t sure how the Starkid read Shepard’s mind, or how Shepard is breathing while in space, or how Anderson got ahead of him in the citadel (though those things aren’t helping at all).

Maxster_ wrote...Harbringer is a moron, thinking one weak transport is enough to destroy SA fleets.

Where, exactly, did the game say or even imply that Harbinger thought this?  

Maxster_ wrote…Krogans are no threat to the reapers. They have no fleet. They could easily obliterated from orbit by a minor reaper task force.

Disregarding Silver’s points, disregarding the Reaper’s established reliance on ground forces, where are they have demonstrated to have the firepower to "easily" annihilate an entire militant race that has survived multiple nuclear apocalypses? I’d love to know.

Maxster_ wrote…krogans are no threat to humanity, 

“Yeah, The Illusive Man was
totally okay with an empowered and aggressive alien race. They promised to behave this time and he took them to their word.” 

Maxster_ wrote...I can prove anything i said... In contrast to you

Substantiate, say... the above three remarks, then. No snarky dismissals. Buckle down and lay out your reasoning in detail.

Modifié par The Interloper, 05 février 2013 - 05:51 .

[PainCakesx]

In any form of media, the climax is the absolute height of the story. It's what the "journey" builds to. Throughout the course of any story, the reader / viewer / player is made to wonder how the conflict resolves. All the exposition, rising action, etc. builds to the climax. If said climax is disappointing or just plain poor, that absolutely taints the rest of the experience.

[Indy_S]

Some of the posts in this thread are really long. Is it possible for some of the longer ones to receive snips in the future?

I generally agree with Maxster, though. There are issues throughout the game. Cerberus is given no reason to attack Sur'Kesh, Tuchanka or even the Citadel. Any justification that has been supplied is headcanon. As well, the Dark Energy plot is unused. Any elements of it that AREN'T in the game cannot be used as justifications within the narrative and several of the parts that are used have to be understood in a different context. As a result, the human Reaper is just a weird, almost pointless aspect of the overall story.

[The Interloper]

Indy_S wrote...
 Cerberus is given no reason to attack Sur'Kesh, Tuchanka or even the Citadel. Any justification that has been supplied is headcanon.

Could you explain this assertion to me, by any chance? Especially about Sur'Kesh/Tuchanka. Max just hasn't been able to do it. Are you saying that it has to be explicit (that is, stated out loud)?

Indy_S wrote...Any elements of it that AREN'T in the game cannot be used as justifications within the narrative and several of the parts that are used have to be understood in a different context.

We know more or less as a fact that these elements were in fact designed for a very different context then the one that was hastily cobbled together for the final product, so I don't think it's really out of line to view them in that original context. The biggest problem with the ending (I think) is that it's made for a story that isn't the story that we went through to get to it.

[jamesp81]

I know I'm late to this thread, but I cannot possibly disagree with the OP more.

No one is going to remember the journey of your story if there was no pay off at the end.

I waited until ME3 was reduced in price before I bought it because, frankly, it wasn't worth full sticker price. It's a great game right up until the last five minutes. But those last five minutes are the most critical, and the fumbling of the endings is why I will always think of Mass Effect 2 as the pinnacle of the series. The Collector Base going up in flames at the end of a successful, bring them all home SM, to the best soundtrack of the three games is the sort of pay off I paid the purchase price for. ME2 delivered. ME3...did not. I wanted to go ahead and play ME3 just to finish what I started as it were, but after my one playthrough I doubt I will ever play it much again. I will play ME1 and 2 again though.

[Indy_S]

The Interloper wrote...
Could you explain this assertion to me, by any chance? Especially about Sur'Kesh/Tuchanka. Max just hasn't been able to do it. Are you saying that it has to be explicit (that is, stated out loud)?

I'm afraid so. These actions don't even come close to 'controlling the Reapers', which is Cerberus' primary motivation. Whatever actions are taken that don't align with a character's motivations should be explained. Indoctrination isn't an absolute, as we later see with Sanctuary, so that can't be relied on as motivation. Krogans pose no immediate threat to Cerberus, so using that as the motivation doesn't make a whole lot of sense either.

We know more or less as a fact that these elements were in fact designed for a very different context then the one that was hastily cobbled together for the final product, so I don't think it's really out of line to view them in that original context. The biggest problem with the ending (I think) is that it's made for a story that isn't the story that we went through to get to it.

You can view them in that context, sure. But the narrative doesn't. And we have to go with what the narrative says. The ending might have been made for a different story but it's tied to this one. And we should judge it for that.

[Handmaiden]

I liked ME3 up until I saw Morinth's treatment in it then I automatically had to hate it.

[silverexile17s]

Indy_S wrote...

The Interloper wrote...
Could you explain this assertion to me, by any chance? Especially about Sur'Kesh/Tuchanka. Max just hasn't been able to do it. Are you saying that it has to be explicit (that is, stated out loud)?

I'm afraid so. These actions don't even come close to 'controlling the Reapers', which is Cerberus' primary motivation. Whatever actions are taken that don't align with a character's motivations should be explained. Indoctrination isn't an absolute, as we later see with Sanctuary, so that can't be relied on as motivation. Krogans pose no immediate threat to Cerberus, so using that as the motivation doesn't make a whole lot of sense either.

We know more or less as a fact that these elements were in fact designed for a very different context then the one that was hastily cobbled together for the final product, so I don't think it's really out of line to view them in that original context. The biggest problem with the ending (I think) is that it's made for a story that isn't the story that we went through to get to it.

You can view them in that context, sure. But the narrative doesn't. And we have to go with what the narrative says. The ending might have been made for a different story but it's tied to this one. And we should judge it for that.

They don't want the krogan to expand again when the war is over. Same agenda as the Dalatrass. THAT'S their reason for Sur'Kesh and Tuchanka: STOP the krogan from becoming part of the war by undermining relations, and making them unwilling to work with the other races. That way, the krogan will have no quarter, and, not threaten HUMANITY,  which Cerberus assumes they themselves will spearhead their own rise to power. They are eleminating the competition for who gets to craw out on top in the galaxy after the war ends.
So YES, they DO have reasons to attack Tuchanka and Sur'Kesh.

[The Interloper]

Indy_S wrote...I'm afraid so. These actions don't even come close to 'controlling the Reapers', which is Cerberus' primary motivation. Whatever actions are taken that don't align with a character's motivations should be explained. Indoctrination isn't an absolute, as we later see with Sanctuary, so that can't be relied on as motivation. Krogans pose no immediate threat to Cerberus, so using that as the motivation doesn't make a whole lot of sense either.

But isn't their main motivation tosecure humanity's power? I thought that controlling the Reapers was just a means to that end. So is stopping the genophage cure. A cured Krogan race is a potential rival powerful enough that I didn't really see any big stretch of the imagination at all to have Cerberus wanting to prevent that from happening.  Mind you, I agree that ultimately Cerberus's involvement in the plot as a whole does not work, mainly because TIM is portrayed as a blithering madman who has no idea what he's doing or why and is right about the control option mainly by coincidence. But that's at the ending. Cerberus's involvement in the Genophage plot arc, localized to that one section, made enough sense IMHO for me to accept it. 

Indy_S wrote...You can view them in that context, sure. But the narrative doesn't. And we have to go with what the narrative says. The ending might have been made for a different story but it's tied to this one. And we should judge it for that.

Oh, I judge the ending we have harshly enough, believe me. What I take issue with is people saying things like "oh, ME died with the human reaper. The human reaper makes no sense!" Well, from what we know, the Human Reaper doesn't make sense specifically because of the eleventh hour plot shifts in ME3. Hell, ME3's plot is covered with puckered scars were all referece to the dark energy ending and the human reaper were sliced out. The collection of human bodies on the citadel, for instance. And that's all the more reason to judge ME by the ending.

Modifié par The Interloper, 05 février 2013 - 07:03 .

[Indy_S]

silverexile17s wrote...

They don't want the krogan to expand again when the war is over. Same agenda as the Dalatrass. THAT'S their reason for Sur'Kesh and Tuchanka: STOP the krogan from becoming part of the war by undermining relations, and making them unwilling to work with the other races. That way, the krogan will have no quarter, and, not threaten HUMANITY, which Cerberus assumes they themselves will spearhead their own rise to power. They are eleminating the competition for who gets to craw out on top in the galaxy after the war ends.
So YES, they DO have reasons to attack Tuchanka and Sur'Kesh.

Headcanon, I'm afraid. If the plan involved controlling the Reapers, that seems like a very unlikely development indeed.

[M2S SOLID JOSH]

me3 was a mediocre game which is sad since it had so much potential. it couldve been good but the endings didnt make it worth the effort - that stupid journal and those terrible fetch quests ( which is 60% of why i dont play it anymore), the rushed plot, almost everything in me2 being nullified and so on.

i could have forgave all these minus the fetch quest if 1- priority earth was what it shoudve been and 2- we had decent endings based on our choices be it death/fail, death/win, live/fail (forced to watch everyone die) or live/win

Modifié par M2S SOLID JOSH, 05 février 2013 - 07:11 .

[Indy_S]

The Interloper wrote...

Indy_S wrote...I'm afraid so. These actions don't even come close to 'controlling the Reapers', which is Cerberus' primary motivation. Whatever actions are taken that don't align with a character's motivations should be explained. Indoctrination isn't an absolute, as we later see with Sanctuary, so that can't be relied on as motivation. Krogans pose no immediate threat to Cerberus, so using that as the motivation doesn't make a whole lot of sense either.

But isn't their main motivation tosecure humanity's power? I thought that controlling the Reapers was just a means to that end. So is stopping the genophage cure. A cured Krogan race is a potential rival powerful enough that I didn't really see any big stretch of the imagination at all to have Cerberus wanting to prevent that from happening.  Mind you, I agree that ultimately Cerberus's involvement in the plot as a whole does not work, mainly because TIM is portrayed as a blithering madman who has no idea what he's doing or why and is right about the control option mainly by coincidence. But that's at the ending. Cerberus's involvement in the Genophage plot arc, localized to that one section, made enough sense IMHO for me to accept it.

Their actual attack on Sur'Kesh is strange enough that the fact it had no reason behind it put it over the edge for me.

Indy_S wrote...You can view them in that context, sure. But the narrative doesn't. And we have to go with what the narrative says. The ending might have been made for a different story but it's tied to this one. And we should judge it for that.

Oh, I judge the ending we have harshly enough, believe me. What I take issue with is people saying things like "oh, ME died with the human reaper. The human reaper makes no sense!" Well, from what we know, the Human Reaper doesn't make sense specifically because of the eleventh hour plot shifts in ME3. Hell, ME3's plot is covered with puckered scars were all referece to the dark energy ending and the human reaper were sliced out. The collection of human bodies on the citadel, for instance. And that's all the more reason to judge ME by the ending.

That's a very different issue. I believe that an element so integral to the plot as that Human Reaper should have been explained in the game where it happened. It did make no sense. It's not really the fault of ME3 that it didn't make sense then. Much like Shepard's reaction to dying, this would have come too late and in the wrong story.

[silverexile17s]

[quote]The Interloper wrote...

 Silver Exile already went over most of this, so I’ll summarize.

Firstly, your assertion that the Spectres can’t go somewhere C-Sec says they can’t. As the wiki says, 

[quote]Mass Effect Wiki _
wrote...Spectres are agents entrusted with extraordinary authority by the Citadel Council, including the power of life and death over the inhabitants of the galaxy … they are generally considered as being above the
law [/quote]

Now Saren gains two things from the conduit; access to the citadel, which he has been denied, and access for a geth army. But he already had access to the citadel before he was exiled; he could certainly stroll into the council chambers without being stopped, like Shepard(if not, why not?) Plus if he launches the attack without exposing himself as a traitor, he will still be trusted (especially by the council), and could probably use his status to spread confusion as to what was happening. As for an army, we know he not only has elite mercs and assassins on his payroll (so many he can apparently dispose of whole teams of them at a time) and that he can get them onto the citadel, but that he’s smuggled a small geth army, including walking TANKS, past high-tech security systems before. So does he really need the conduit so badly? I think that’s a fair question to ask, since it’s the basis of the whole plot, and Saren loses a lot of time and the element of surprise thanks to his pursuit of it.  As for the citadel fleet, the in-game dialogue paints a different picture from the wiki page. Which I have read, as a matter of fact. Go back and listen to it.
[quote]silverexile17s wrote...Since C-Sec is the first called in, they likely are prepped to handle a Spectre. They held out against Cerberus and the Geth well enough.  [/quote] I must contest that. Saren ripped through them so quickly that he had already seized the citadel tower by the time Shepard jumped through the conduit after him, mere minutes after Saren had gone through.

 And just to clarify, both for Max and for Silver, my point is not that Sarens plan breaks the plot, believe it or not. The
story still functions. My point is that things can be enjoyable even if they don’t stand up to close logical scrutiny. The issues with Saren, with the Human Reaper, with Lazarus, and so on could be resolved with clarifying or changed details. In contrast with the ending, in which case clarifying detail actually makes it worse.
[quote]Maxster_ wrote...ME2 is just a meaningless asspulled filler, which adds completely nothing to a story [/quote]With the current ending, yes, it is meaningless. I agree. I already explained this. 
[quote]Maxster_ wrote... Except if reapers can fly into a galaxy in 0.5-3 years, losing completely nothing - there is absolutely no reason for Sovereign to act. [/quote] I already explained what they lose. Twice. 
[quote]Maxster_ wrote...It is exactly is a headcanon. There is no plot related to a dark energy, only few mentions about dark energy.[/quote] I also made points about the human reaper (which is the basis of the whole plot, and the heart of my point) and the writers self-confessed, published intentions, which is just about the opposite of headcannon by the way. You ignored those and only addressed the third, tertiary point I threw in about Haestrom.
[quote]Maxster_ wrote... It does not matter for you. Suddenly retarded reaper destroyer, idiotic battle with worm, pointless air strike, which had no chance of succeeding from the start, Cerberus asspulled for completely no reason - for you, it is consistant and coherent narrative. But not for me [/quote]Let’s define things. When I say that the sequence is “narratively consistent on a core level,” I’m talking about not what happens in the scene but why the scene is in the story in the first place. Tuchanka happens because Wrex, Eve, Mordin and Shepard all desire to cure the genophage (or to at least appear to do so). The effects of the genophage, both in reference to individual and generally likable characters (Wrex, Mordin) and the universe as a whole (Krogan culture, Krogan wars) are introduced early in ME1 and developed in ME2. The morality of the genophage is discussed and the distinct possibility of a cure is toyed with in both games. In ME3, the character’s motivations converge with those of Shepard and the main plot (in which you need troops) and you are given the opportunity to decide, once and for all, what you think about the genophage, and whether you’re willing to hurt your friends (or risk another Krogan war) in order to stay true to that choice. The plotline has a clear introduction, development, and conclusion that is spread throughout the trilogy, ties in with the main plot of defeating the reapers, ties in with the arcs of individual characters, and presents several moral choices. This is what I mean when I say “basic coherency” and Shepard killing the Reaper on Tuchanka with a roundhouse kick to the crotch wouldn’t have altered that. That’s a "how." That's detail. Details matter to a point but they were never ME’s strong suit to begin with. 

This is in contrast with the ending, which comes out of nowhere, involves an entirely new conflict that is only relevant to an unlikable new character we have never met, against theoretical killer synthetics that don’t exist, which are fought using technology we don’t understand and whose effects the game barely explores, and all of this is introduced and resolved in five minutes with only paltry attempts at foreshadowing. Ten, with the EC. It is this core disconnect between the very narrative purpose of the ending scene and the rest of the plot that the ending fails. Not because we aren’t sure how the Starkid read Shepard’s mind, or how Shepard is breathing while in space, or how Anderson got ahead of him in the citadel (though those things aren’t helping at all).
[quote]Maxster_ wrote...Harbringer is a moron, thinking one weak transport is enough to destroy SA fleets.[/quote]Where, exactly, did the game say or even imply that Harbinger thought this?  
[quote]Maxster_ wrote…Krogans are no threat to the reapers. They have no fleet. They could easily obliterated from orbit by a minor reaper task force. [/quote]Disregarding Silver’s points, disregarding the Reaper’s established reliance on ground forces, where are they have demonstrated to have the firepower to "easily" annihilate an entire militant race that has survived multiple nuclear apocalypses? I’d love to know.
[quote]Maxster_ wrote…krogans are no threat to humanity, [/quote]“Yeah, The Illusive Man was
totally okay with an empowered and aggressive alien race. They promised to behave this time and he took them to their word.” 
[quote]Maxster_ wrote...I can prove anything i said... In contrast to you[/quote] Substantiate, say... the above three remarks, then. No snarky dismissals. Buckle down and lay out your reasoning in detail.[/quote]
1. But that's WRONG. The MOMENT he is suspected of stepping out of line, or doing ANYTHING like what you keep suggesting he should have done, any and all restrictions on C-Sec go out the window to bring him in, as that's the only wat TO bring a Spectre down. Special Responces will track him down, possibly with the aid of another Spectre, or more.
And there are several joint forces on the Citadel, and without acess to the Council Chambers, he cannot lock down the relays. You know WHY Sovergien and the geth got through the Citadel fleet so quickly? Saren cut the Relay Network and left them without reinforcements. If Saren lacunhed your idea, he would NEVER get to the Council Chamber in time to shut down the network, or keep the station from sealing, OR prevent instant responce from C-Sec. It would fail instantly. The joint militaries would swarm through the still-unlocked relays, and the geth fleet would fall, and Sovergien would be either destroyed or forced to flee. Saren would be killed or captured. The presance of the Reapers would be exposed. And the Reapers would be right back to square one.

This idea of yours is admittedly flawed. Saren wouldn't be able to lead a larg task force of Geth through the station all the way to the tower before the station sealed Sovergien out, and the other fleets came in.
It's an idea doomed to failure, hence it's NOT what Saren did.

YES he needs the Conduit. It gives him DIRECT ACCESS to BOTH the Citadel Tower (locking down the Relay Network, locking/unlocking the station, and opening the Portal to Dark Space) AND C-Sec HQ (killing the nerve center of C-Sec's armed responce, basically ensuring takeover of the station. And all so fast that, unlike your plan, no one will even know what's happened till it's far too late. They would never get to Saren till AFTER he got to the controls.

And that's not JUST Saren's agenda at work, you FORGET. Sovergien was still hunting for the reason WHY the trigger signal for the Citadel Trap failed. The answer was in the prothean beacons. Sovergien had a stake in this too, and It likely directed the hunt for the beacons. Saren was doing everything he could to appese Sovergien. You are confused, in that you think Saren was the one behind the reins. He wasn't.
Saren get's the Conduit location, wipes out a human colony, and shows Sovergien that He's useful.  Three birds.

2. Again, incorrect. HE WASN'T ALONE, remember? He had an entire batillion of geth come with him. THEY took care of the majority of the C-Sec forces. NOT Saren. the GETH. That was the POINT of bringing them with him through the Conduit. Cerberus attacks the C-Sec HQ with plentiful forces and spies in advance. Saren would have had NO CHANCE without his armed geth escort.

Saren's plot was fine as is. The problem is that your own scrutiny is what's flawed under examination, NOT Saren's plan.

3. ME2. NOT ME3? Seems someone's had a change of views.

4. I also explained that to Maxster_ that the losses the Reapers sustain, and the bother of fighting everyone at once to keep them from all activally joining forces, vs being able to segregate everyone and pick them off one by one if they had the Relay Network, is worse. Since they now cannot attack the Citadel before sealing them out, that's shot to hell. At least till TIM comes in and renacts Saren's Citadel takeover plan, and suceeds where Saren failed.

5. www.strategyinformer.com/news/17086/mass-effect-writer-drew-karpyshyn-reveals-original-mass-effect-3-endings
www.polygon.com/gaming/2012/8/20/3256678/original-mass-effect-writer-talks-about-the-possible-endings-for-mass
THIS right here proves, directly from Drew himself, that the Dark Energy plot was real, and was the original plan.

6. Not much wrong there, except that the Leviathans confirm that said homicidal Synthetics DID exist, therefore making it so that everything the Catalyst does it to prevent that genocide from spreading to every organic race by "preserving" them.

7. Loth as I am to say it, there IS an example that proves Maxster_ right on Reaper firepower being strong enough tp glass worlds: Bekenstien.
Dianna Allers tells you right before heading to Earth that the Reapers turned the entire planet's surface - her homeworld's surface - to ash VIA orbital bombardment, on the way to retrive the Citadel from TIM. She says that they bascially wiped the world from the galaxy.
So they actually DO have the capabilaty, likely when in very large groups. But never attack major population centers for spicific species. They didn't glass over Earth, Palaven, Thessia, Tuchanka, Irune (volus homeworld) or Heshtok (vorcha homeworld). They wanted the major population alive for harvesting.

8. Agree with you on that. TIM's agenda is like the Dalatrass. They don't want the krogan to be top dog.

9. Do not bother. He rarely does that. The ONLY time I ever did see him do that was when talking about how impossible it was for Saren to attack the Citadel any other way but with the Conduit.

[silverexile17s]

Indy_S wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

They don't want the krogan to expand again when the war is over. Same agenda as the Dalatrass. THAT'S their reason for Sur'Kesh and Tuchanka: STOP the krogan from becoming part of the war by undermining relations, and making them unwilling to work with the other races. That way, the krogan will have no quarter, and, not threaten HUMANITY, which Cerberus assumes they themselves will spearhead their own rise to power. They are eleminating the competition for who gets to craw out on top in the galaxy after the war ends.
So YES, they DO have reasons to attack Tuchanka and Sur'Kesh.

Headcanon, I'm afraid. If the plan involved controlling the Reapers, that seems like a very unlikely development indeed.

They don't need added risks. The Dalatrass' reasons are the SAME as Cerberus. It's just a precaution in case they DON'T get control of the Reapers. In that case, they don't need krogan running around. TIM plan's ahead.

[silverexile17s]

Indy_S wrote...

The Interloper wrote...

Indy_S wrote...I'm afraid so. These actions don't even come close to 'controlling the Reapers', which is Cerberus' primary motivation. Whatever actions are taken that don't align with a character's motivations should be explained. Indoctrination isn't an absolute, as we later see with Sanctuary, so that can't be relied on as motivation. Krogans pose no immediate threat to Cerberus, so using that as the motivation doesn't make a whole lot of sense either.

But isn't their main motivation tosecure humanity's power? I thought that controlling the Reapers was just a means to that end. So is stopping the genophage cure. A cured Krogan race is a potential rival powerful enough that I didn't really see any big stretch of the imagination at all to have Cerberus wanting to prevent that from happening.  Mind you, I agree that ultimately Cerberus's involvement in the plot as a whole does not work, mainly because TIM is portrayed as a blithering madman who has no idea what he's doing or why and is right about the control option mainly by coincidence. But that's at the ending. Cerberus's involvement in the Genophage plot arc, localized to that one section, made enough sense IMHO for me to accept it.

Their actual attack on Sur'Kesh is strange enough that the fact it had no reason behind it put it over the edge for me.

Indy_S wrote...You can view them in that context, sure. But the narrative doesn't. And we have to go with what the narrative says. The ending might have been made for a different story but it's tied to this one. And we should judge it for that.

Oh, I judge the ending we have harshly enough, believe me. What I take issue with is people saying things like "oh, ME died with the human reaper. The human reaper makes no sense!" Well, from what we know, the Human Reaper doesn't make sense specifically because of the eleventh hour plot shifts in ME3. Hell, ME3's plot is covered with puckered scars were all referece to the dark energy ending and the human reaper were sliced out. The collection of human bodies on the citadel, for instance. And that's all the more reason to judge ME by the ending.

That's a very different issue. I believe that an element so integral to the plot as that Human Reaper should have been explained in the game where it happened. It did make no sense. It's not really the fault of ME3 that it didn't make sense then. Much like Shepard's reaction to dying, this would have come too late and in the wrong story.

1.  They don't want to risk the krogan becoming a rival military power after the war is over. Not with how fast they bread in the rebellions.

[Indy_S]

silverexile17s wrote...
They don't need added risks. The Dalatrass' reasons are the SAME as Cerberus. It's just a precaution in case they DON'T get control of the Reapers. In that case, they don't need krogan running around. TIM plan's ahead.

Still headcanon. The reasons for Cerberus' presence in the Genophage arc are unexplained and forgotten.

[kavox]

All I can say is this: If the ending of the Godfather had a Vito Corleone ghost present himself to Michael and give him three options on how to deal with the family's nemesis, I would have put the book down and proceed to hit myself, repeatedly, in the head, with a hammer. I have read the original book more than 5 times now because of its storyline and an ending that FITS THE STORY. It is dark, gritty, bloody and a bit depressing, but it is in its own way, upbeat,

ME3's ending reveals a previously unmentioned antagonist in the last 10 minutes, whose appearance is based of of a character that we interact with once, and we don't even know the kid's name. Then, the self-proclaimed leader of our nemesis gives us three choices, and we are just supposed to believe him/it, when we have NEVER trusted anything even involving Reapers before in the entire franchise.

I replayed ME1/2 dozens of time because at the end, even if i messed up along the way, and even if their were things that didn't make sense, there was a sense of accomplishment and completeness.
I could've overlooked the flaws of ME3 if their had been an awesome and logical ending. But now, since the ending will not be changed all i see is missed opportunities everywhere, Dekunna, Thessia, all those fetch quests that could've shown us the war first hand. So when you say that it is the journey that matters... the journey was kind of lame.

Modifié par kavox, 05 février 2013 - 07:31 .

[mauro2222]

The Interloper wrote...

ME1? You mean, the game where the bad guy's plan was to find a back door that he wouldn't have needed if he hadn't been looking for a backdoor in the first place?

Wrong... play the game again.

[Steppenwolf]

People only say "it's the journey, not the destination" when the ending sucks. And personally, I don't care if a story is amazing if the ending undermines what came before it. Sometimes a great ending can save a mediocre story. But a lousy ending can't be ignored when the story is mediocre, and IMO ME3 was very mediocre before I even got to the lazy, nonsensical ending.

[Indy_S]

mauro2222 wrote...

Wrong... play the game again.

Come now, it's not that hard to see where he's coming from. (Very reduced) The bad guy wants to get to the throne room when he's already a palace guard. The details change it, sure, but that's still present.

[silverexile17s]

Indy_S wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...
They don't need added risks. The Dalatrass' reasons are the SAME as Cerberus. It's just a precaution in case they DON'T get control of the Reapers. In that case, they don't need krogan running around. TIM plan's ahead.

Still headcanon. The reasons for Cerberus' presence in the Genophage arc are unexplained and forgotten.

Are you thick? Cerberus doesn't need an unckecked krogan population running rampant while they solidify their grip. And they're presance in the allies will make current operations even harder.
It's common tactical knowlodge to take out any and all potental threats when a perfect oppertunity presents itself.
It's NOT headcannon. It's practical common sense. After all, I remind you that you have nothing that DISPORVES this motivation. Don't call it headcannon when you don't have the proof.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 05 février 2013 - 08:03 .

[silverexile17s]

Indy_S wrote...

mauro2222 wrote...

Wrong... play the game again.

Come now, it's not that hard to see where he's coming from. (Very reduced) The bad guy wants to get to the throne room when he's already a palace guard. The details change it, sure, but that's still present.

Except for the hundreds of other Royal Guards and armymen around him, and an overlord master that's pressing him for it's own agendas?
No. Saren's options are nowhere near as open as you think.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 05 février 2013 - 08:04 .

[kavox]

silverexile17s wrote...

Indy_S wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...
They don't need added risks. The Dalatrass' reasons are the SAME as Cerberus. It's just a precaution in case they DON'T get control of the Reapers. In that case, they don't need krogan running around. TIM plan's ahead.

Still headcanon. The reasons for Cerberus' presence in the Genophage arc are unexplained and forgotten.

Are you thick? Cerberus doesn't need an unckecked krogan population running rampant while they solidify their grip. And they're presance in the allies will make current operations even harder.
It's common tactical knowlodge to take out any and all potental threats when a perfect oppertunity presents itself.
It's NOT headcannon. It's practical common sense. After all, I remind you that you have nothing that DISPORVES this motivation. Don't call it headcannon when you don't have the proof.

He'scalling it headcanon because you don't have proof. You are supposing a reasing based on your knowledge, not anything explained in-game, therefore you are creating it ie headcanon.