[quote]The Interloper wrote...
Silver Exile already went over most of this, so I’ll summarize.
Firstly, your assertion that the Spectres can’t go somewhere C-Sec says they can’t. As the wiki says,
[quote]Mass Effect Wiki _
wrote...
Spectres are agents entrusted with extraordinary authority by the Citadel Council, including the power of life and death over the inhabitants of the galaxy …
they are generally considered as being above the
law [/quote]
[/quote]
I can play that game too.
Where it is said, that they could walk anywhere they pleased? Nowhere. You are just making it up.
[quote]
Now Saren gains two things from the conduit; access to the citadel, which he has been denied, and access for a geth army. But he already had access to the citadel before he was exiled; he could certainly stroll into the council chambers without being stopped, like Shepard(if not, why not?)
[/quote]
Sure.
You completely ignored quotes from wiki, for a single reason - to bash ME1 to create an impression, that writing of ME1 is on par with garbage writing of ME3. Which is, of course, false.
Saren alone would be dead long before he could do any harm. C-Sec special response division will take care of that.
[quote]
Plus if he launches the attack without exposing himself as a traitor, he will still be trusted (especially by the council), and could probably use his status to spread confusion as to what was happening.
[/quote]
Attack? On the Citadel? By mercs? Just lol.
Or geth?
I like how you completely ignored quotes from wiki. That style
[quote]
As for an army, we know he not only has elite mercs and assassins on his payroll (so many he can apparently dispose of whole teams of them at a time) and that he can get them onto the citadel, but that he’s smuggled a small geth army, including walking TANKS, past high-tech security systems before.
[/quote]
Except that those mercs would never get into a presidium.
As for Noveria - i like how you ignored entire reason it even exists.
This place is out of council jurisdiction and don't follow council laws. And corporations of Noveria doesn't get searched throughously, especially cargo. Just scans for energy.
Situation with rachni breeding or other dangerous research would never happen on Citadel, or in Council space for that matter.
[quote]
So does he really need the conduit so badly? I think that’s a fair question to ask, since it’s the basis of the whole plot, and Saren loses a lot of time and the element of surprise thanks to his pursuit of it. As for the citadel fleet, the in-game dialogue paints a different picture from the wiki page. Which I have read, as a matter of fact. Go back and listen to it.
[/quote]
No, my friend, conversations, and codex entires, confirms my point. Next time when you trying to prove something - provide an actual proof. I know you can't, but still.
[quote]
[quote]silverexile17s wrote...Since C-Sec is the first called in, they likely are prepped to handle a Spectre. They held out against Cerberus and the Geth well enough. [/quote] I must contest that. Saren ripped through them so quickly that he had already seized the citadel tower by the time Shepard jumped through the conduit after him, mere minutes after Saren had gone through.
[/quote]
You do realise, that presidium is a restricted area? And that the enemy appeared right behind most of defences, and near tower, leaving only those c-sec forces which are inside the tower to overcome? And that no one would ever expect a whole army appearing in a middle of the presidium?
Of course, if Saren was alone - he would die very fast. But he was with a large forces of geth.
Few minutes is not making sense, but at least 30 minutes is enough.
[quote]
And just to clarify, both for Max and for Silver, my point is not that Sarens plan breaks the plot, believe it or not. The
story still functions. My point is that things can be enjoyable even if they don’t stand up to close logical scrutiny. The issues with Saren, with the Human Reaper, with Lazarus, and so on could be resolved with clarifying or changed details. In contrast with the ending, in which case clarifying detail actually makes it worse.
[/quote]
Changing details - is a retcon. With a retcon, you can even make Crucible sensical. You can also completely retcon ME2 plot, remove human reaper and put some sense into collectors operations, like they were actually testing humans.
But. It will never work with crap like Lazarus and Cerberus Empire. Those things will never make any sense.
And of course, if you are saying, that something is meaningful and makes sense, when it actually isn't,
because it can be retconned into something meaningful - this way, you can justify almost any crap writing ever existed.
[quote]
[quote]Maxster_ wrote...ME2 is just a meaningless asspulled filler, which adds completely nothing to a story [/quote]With the current ending, yes, it is meaningless. I agree. I already explained this.
[/quote]
ME1 makes sense even without sequels, actually, it makes more sense without sequels, especially ME2, than with ME2.
ME2 story makes absolutely no sense, sequel regardless, and also retcons sense from ME1.
[quote]
[quote]Maxster_ wrote... Except if reapers can fly into a galaxy in 0.5-3 years, losing completely nothing -
there is absolutely no reason for Sovereign to act. [/quote] I already explained what they lose. Twice.
[/quote]
My dear friend, stating something as explained, doesn't make it so.
There is exactly no reason for Sovereign to act. He can't take Citadel on it's own.
There is no point in waiting for thousands of years, harvest already delayed.
There is no reason for reapers to wait for civilizations becoming too strong, or for actual discovery of reapers existence by this cycle.
And this made that way only because reapers suddenly, in ME3, can arrive from dark space in 0.5-3 years losing completely nothing in the process.
That waiting was making sense in ME1, and makes completely no sense in ME3, after this retcon. Reapers suddenly were never trapped in dark space, Sovereign never needed to attack Citadel, or do anything at all.
[quote]
[quote]Maxster_ wrote...It is exactly is a headcanon. There is no plot related to a dark energy, only few mentions about dark energy.[/quote] I also made points about the human reaper (which is the basis of the whole plot, and the heart of my point) and the writers self-confessed, published intentions, which is just about the opposite of headcannon by the way. You ignored those and only addressed the third, tertiary point I threw in about Haestrom.
[/quote]
As i said, when you are using out-of-universe infromation, to prove your statement in-universe - you already lost.
And people are not judged by intentions, only by deeds.
Your headcanon - is pretending that there is dark energy plot, when there is not.
Anyway, dark energy was one of ideas of ME2, but it was dropped in the development process.
There is exactly 2 mentions of dark energy, Haelstrom, and Parasini. And that is all. There is no dark energy plot. There was no dark energy plot. Only that dark energy being something, that a part of MEU.
And ME2 excuse of a plot makes absolutely no sense. Stop pretending that some thoughts that was never part of a story is a proof that it exists in story.
[quote]
[quote]Maxster_ wrote... It does not matter
for you. Suddenly retarded reaper destroyer, idiotic battle with worm, pointless air strike, which had no chance of succeeding from the start, Cerberus asspulled for completely no reason - for you, it is consistant and coherent narrative. But not for me [/quote]Let’s define things. When I say that the sequence is “narratively consistent on a core level,” I’m talking about not what happens in the scene but why the scene is in the story in the first place. Tuchanka happens because Wrex, Eve, Mordin and Shepard all desire to cure the genophage (or to at least appear to do so). The effects of the genophage, both in reference to individual and generally likable characters (Wrex, Mordin) and the universe as a whole (Krogan culture, Krogan wars) are introduced early in ME1 and developed in ME2. The morality of the genophage is discussed and the distinct possibility of a cure is toyed with in both games. In ME3, the character’s motivations converge with those of Shepard and the main plot (in which you need troops) and you are given the opportunity to decide, once and for all, what you think about the genophage, and whether you’re willing to hurt your friends (or risk another Krogan war) in order to stay true to that choice. The plotline has a clear introduction, development, and conclusion that is spread throughout the trilogy, ties in with the main plot of defeating the reapers, ties in with the arcs of individual characters, and presents several moral choices. This is what I mean when I say “basic coherency” and Shepard killing the Reaper on Tuchanka with a roundhouse kick to the crotch wouldn’t have altered that. That’s a "how." That's detail.
Details matter to a point but they were never ME’s strong suit to begin with.
[/quote]
Of course, when you just completely ignoring those, to "prove" your "point".
It does not matter how "deep" and "thoughtful" your story is, if it's premise and exposition makes no sense.
Most fun thing is, that Tuchanka could easily be made into sensical mission, just remove derpstroyer and Cerberus as an enemy, and add salarians or krogans(from rival clans).
Of course this way there would be no retarded scene of fight with worm.
Even in current state, Tuchanka is easily, by far, the best story of ME3. It is moderate by ME1 standarts, but still, that only shows low quality of ME3 writing.
[quote]
This is in contrast with the ending, which comes out of nowhere, involves an entirely new conflict that is only relevant to an unlikable new character we have never met, against theoretical killer synthetics that don’t exist, which are fought using technology we don’t understand and whose effects the game barely explores, and all of this is introduced and resolved in five minutes with only paltry attempts at foreshadowing. Ten, with the EC. It is this core disconnect between the very narrative purpose of the ending scene and the rest of the plot that the ending fails. Not because we aren’t sure how the Starkid read Shepard’s mind, or how Shepard is breathing while in space, or how Anderson got ahead of him in the citadel (though those things aren’t helping at all).
[/quote]
Of course, ME3 ending is horrible written, it easily outdones everything that came before in a context of nonsense, even lazarus and nonsensical ME2 plot.
It quality is by far lower than anything in ME series.
But, that doesn't mean that everything else that was in ME series was written good, or brilliant.
It only means, that ending's writing quality is lower than other parts.
And it doesn't makes Tuchanka's writing quality as good.
[quote]
[quote]Maxster_ wrote...Harbringer is a moron, thinking one weak transport is enough to destroy SA fleets.[/quote]Where, exactly, did the game say or even imply that Harbinger thought this?
[/quote]
Implied - by derpy Shepard, in collectors cruiser, and structure of that transport.
And point is - there is no reason for collectors to do anything. They could never finish said reapers, and there is no need to raise suspicions, especially when reapers can arrive in 0.5-3 years.
And if reapers are trapped in dark space, as it was in ME1, collectors(and thus Harbringer) are just morons - they could never ever finish this reaper, and they could never activate Citadel relay.
[quote]
[quote]Maxster_ wrote…Krogans are no threat to the reapers. They have no fleet. They could easily obliterated from orbit by a minor reaper task force. [/quote]Disregarding Silver’s points, disregarding the Reaper’s established reliance on ground forces, where are they have demonstrated to have the firepower to "easily" annihilate an entire militant race that has survived multiple nuclear apocalypses? I’d love to know.
[/quote]
In codex, which you are purposedly ignore, of course.
link[quote] Reaper Capabilities
data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIABAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAEALAAAAAABAAEAQAICTAEAOw%3D%3DThe Reapers are technologically superior to the organic species of
the galaxy -- but the degree of that superiority is a matter of debate
in the intelligence community.
The Reapers' thrusters and FTL drives appear to propel them at
more than twice the speed of Citadel ships. Estimates of their location
in dark space suggest they can travel nearly 30 light-years in a 24-hour
period.
Reaper power sources seem to violate known physical laws. Reapers
usually destroy fuel infrastructure rather than attempting to capture
it intact, indicating that Reapers do not require organic species'
energy supplies. Consequently, the Reapers attack without regard for
maintaining supply lines behind them, except to move husks from one
planet to another. Unlike Citadel ships, Reapers do not appear to
discharge static buildup from their drive cores, although they sometimes
appear wreathed in static discharge when they land on planets.
The main gun on a Reaper capital ship dwarfs that of the
Alliance's Everest-class dreadnoughts. No dreadnought has yet survived a
direct hit from the weapon.
Estimates put its destructive power
anywhere from 132 to 454 kilotons of TNT. Even if the target is
hardened, as in the case of a surface-based missile silo, the gun can
instead bury the target beneath molten metal. Precise targeting
computers and correctors also give the Reaper weapons a longer effective
range than organics' dreadnoughts or cruisers.
The kinetic barriers on a Reaper capital ship can shrug off the
firepower of a small fleet. Weapons specifically designed to overcome
shields, such as the Javelin, GARDIAN lasers, or the Thanix series, can
bypass the barriers to some degree. The difficulty is getting close
enough to use them -- the surface-mounted weaponry on Reaper ships,
similar in principle to GARDIAN, presents an effective defense against
organic species' fighters.
[/quote]
And point being - krogans are no threat to the reapers, there is no need to waste time on orbital bombardment before other races, who are actual threat, which can lead to significant losses, are crushed.
And after that, reapers could just eradicate krogans with orbital bombardment, and then sweep the planet with various husks, which they don't need in dark space anyway.
[quote]
[quote]Maxster_ wrote…krogans are no threat to humanity, [/quote]“Yeah, The Illusive Man was
totally okay with an empowered and aggressive alien race. They promised to behave this time and he took them to their word.”
[/quote]
As always, you are just deliberately ignore codex.
Read parts about space combat, and stop saying nonsense. Without fleets your "agressive alien race" is just a target practice for any sane admiral or political leader.
Krogans are no threat to the humanity, they have no fleets, and subjugated by the council, and condemned for confinement on their planet.
On the other hand, we have direct threat of the reapers, who would obliterate everyone, humanity included, and are not negotiable.
And we have potential threat of the council races, which fleets have potential to easily crush entire Systems Alliance.
If TIM wasn't insane mumbling idiot in ME3, as is Systems Alliance leadership - they could use krogans as a leverage for the council, by indirectly helping them(krogans) through Cerberus. This is dangerous political play, but it is to ensure human dominance and survival, so it is worth to try.
So, for TIM it would be wise to actually help krogans, and it perfectly fits his views. Well, his views before he went full retard in ME3.
And Systems Alliance can easily disavow Cerberus actions, as "those insane terrorists who tries to undermine our effort to build a better and peaciful future for everyone".
[quote]
[quote]Maxster_ wrote...I can prove anything i said... In contrast to you[/quote] Substantiate, say... the above three remarks, then. No snarky dismissals. Buckle down and lay out your reasoning in detail.[/quote]
Said by someone, who haven't even produce a small proof for his assertions. So credible
Modifié par Maxster_, 05 février 2013 - 03:10 .
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