514 réponses à ce sujet

[o Ventus]

Ieldra2 wrote...

They even named the scene "Crash on Eden" in "The Art of the Mass Effect Universe".

I own a copy of the book. No they don't.

No, I think this scene heavily suggests a technological reset of civilization.

Yeah, except for the Normandy being repaired and functioning, as well as the epilogue narration.

In the high EMS endings, it comes across as a symbolic rejection of the civilization they left behind.

Yeah. That's why the Normandy takes off, presumably flying back towards civilization.

Modifié par o Ventus, 12 février 2013 - 12:32 .

[anmiro]

I love ME1, ME2, and ME3, but the ending was awful. I wasn't expecting a super happy ending, but I was expecting the ending to make sense. Instead of going out on a high note, ME3 left me with such a sour taste in my mouth that I really don't have any interest in the ME Universe anymore.

Modifié par anmiro, 12 février 2013 - 02:27 .

[1337b0r0m1r]

mvaning wrote...
What I was trying to IMPLY is that since it is wrong to impose your sexual orientation on someone, isn't it also wrong to impose your ideological stance?

No one is 'imposing a sexual orientation' on anyone. You are free to pursue gay or straight romances, but you are not forced into any orientation. Or are do you take issue with the fact that some love interests are not available depending on Shepard's gender? If that is the case, then let me say that I would find it to be a very odd portrayal of reality if it was different.

mvaning wrote...

I should have clarified.    Each ending choice has ideological analogoes.    For me, it is sort of like being asked "Which ideology do you like best?"  when in reality, my ideologies are different than the choices that they impose on me to make. 

I believe I understand now - but feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. First of all, I think it is good that there are different choices with very different moral implications and outcomes. And, yes, as it is not possible to program an infinite amount of choices, and endings, there will always be players who feel that their preferred choice is not properly represented.

However - and that is what I believe is the issue in this context - they are presented in very artificial way: the starchild just appears out of the blue and asks you a multiple-choice question: Which one of these 3(4) answers do you like best? But you are not allowed to take a more active stance, to tell him, look, I think your logic is flawed, you are wrong, why don't you just self-terminate and take the reapers with you (after all, you are free to choose Destroy, and the results for the reapers are basically the same), or go back to dark space and only come back when synthetics actually try to wipe out organics, or something along these lines.
The starchild might not agree with you, but it would offer much more agency to the player.



Better yet, you could present what amounts to essentially the same choices in a much more natural way. Let me know if the following, slightly alterated story would work better for you:

Over the course of ME3, you slowly learn how the Crucible probably works: the scientist figure out the different parts, that it seems to emit a powerful energy pulse, but that it requires some kind of modulator and emitter.
Eventually you learn that that is the Citadel, and while you are on Earth, your scientists figure out how everything fits and works together.
Then you get beamed up to the Citadel, and while you walk through the Citadel the scientists tell you what they believe you have to do in order to activate the Catalyst and destroy the reapers, but you also learn that this will probably wipe out all other synthetic life in the process. You can ask them if there's another way, but they'll tell you they don't know of any.
You still meet upon the Illusive Man, who tells you that he had spies on the Crucible project, and together with Cerberus' own research he still tells you that he found a way to control the reapers. He tells Shepard (perhaps at gunpoint) what Shepard needs to do in order to modulate the Crucible's energy (press some different buttons) and that he needs to transfer his conscience with some interface Cerberus has developed (similar the one you use with the Geth), to be able to give commands to the reapers. It's up to Shepard if he belives the Illusive Man that it actually works, if it is morally right, and what it means for him/her personally.
Then, you still have the Catalyst's VI on the Citadel, but present only as a voice, and it realizes what you are up to. And that it can't stop you. So it still tells you about the reaper's logic, it tells youthat none of the other possibilities will work, and that the only way it lets you save organics is by fusion all organic and synthetic life (so organic life can never be whiped out later by synthetics?). And tells you what other buttons you have to press to alter the Crucible's energy for that purpose. You can tell the VI what you think of its logic, and its plan, you can tell it to just bugger off, or self-terminate, but it'll just say now. Again, it's up to Shepard whether he/she believes the VI, and to make that clear, people dear to you ensure you over voice-com that they believe the Crucible will work in the way you heard before.

Still the same choices as Destroy, Synthesis and Control, with the same outcomes, but perhaps presented in a more natural, straightforward way, with the rationales being more clearly communicated.
 And no starchild. It's up to Shepard whom to believe, and it's still up to Shepard to make a choice. Or not to make a choice, slowly bleeding out and let things take their course - and the reapers win eventually.


If you do believe, however, that you should not be forced to make difficult choices at all, then I still have to strongly disagree. Forcing difficult choices with different adverse outcomes is a powerful story-telling tool. It's either saving the council or not. It's either curing the genophage or not. It's either killing the Geth or the killing the Quarians (depending on your previous actions). And the same should be true for the ending.

[Ieldra]

Atekimagus wrote...
Well in my endings, the normandy flies away again under her own power, so I assume we can dismiss the whole no technology claim entirely.

I was talking about the original endings. The Normandy didn't fly away in those. The EC retconned that aspect out of existence, but I think it was fully intended by those who wrote the originals and that the EC had to be pushed through against their resistance.

[N7-RedFox]

Mass Effect 3's ending felt like a ruined orgasm. We got blue balls!

Modifié par N7-RedFox, 13 février 2013 - 01:47 .

[Ieldra]

1337b0r0m1r wrote...
Better yet, you could present what amounts to essentially the same choices in a much more natural way. Let me know if the following, slightly alterated story would work better for you:

Over the course of ME3, you slowly learn how the Crucible probably works: the scientist figure out the different parts, that it seems to emit a powerful energy pulse, but that it requires some kind of modulator and emitter.
Eventually you learn that that is the Citadel, and while you are on Earth, your scientists figure out how everything fits and works together.

Then you get beamed up to the Citadel, and while you walk through the Citadel the scientists tell you what they believe you have to do in order to activate the Catalyst and destroy the reapers, but you also learn that this will probably wipe out all other synthetic life in the process. You can ask them if there's another way, but they'll tell you they don't know of any.

You still meet upon the Illusive Man, who tells you that he had spies on the Crucible project, and together with Cerberus' own research he still tells you that he found a way to control the reapers. He tells Shepard (perhaps at gunpoint) what Shepard needs to do in order to modulate the Crucible's energy (press some different buttons) and that he needs to transfer his conscience with some interface Cerberus has developed (similar the one you use with the Geth), to be able to give commands to the reapers. It's up to Shepard if he belives the Illusive Man that it actually works, if it is morally right, and what it means for him/her personally.

Then, you still have the Catalyst's VI on the Citadel, but present only as a voice, and it realizes what you are up to. And that it can't stop you. So it still tells you about the reaper's logic, it tells youthat none of the other possibilities will work, and that the only way it lets you save organics is by fusion all organic and synthetic life (so organic life can never be whiped out later by synthetics?). And tells you what other buttons you have to press to alter the Crucible's energy for that purpose. You can tell the VI what you think of its logic, and its plan, you can tell it to just bugger off, or self-terminate, but it'll just say now. Again, it's up to Shepard whether he/she believes the VI, and to make that clear, people dear to you ensure you over voice-com that they believe the Crucible will work in the way you heard before.

Still the same choices as Destroy, Synthesis and Control, with the same outcomes, but perhaps presented in a more natural, straightforward way, with the rationales being more clearly communicated.
And no starchild. It's up to Shepard whom to believe, and it's still up to Shepard to make a choice. Or not to make a choice, slowly bleeding out and let things take their course - and the reapers win eventually.

I'm not mvaning, nor am I "anti-ending", but yes, I believe something like that would have worked far better. The problem with the whole scenario lies almost exclusively in the exposition and its source. I would add one thing, however: a confirmation by a reasonably unbiased source that the Crucible will likely work in the way explained, most notably for Control and Synthesis, so that only two things go into the decision: Your Shepard's ideological stance, i.e. his preferences regarding the actual content of the three options, and their ethics, your Shepard's answer to the question if X is justifiable. This is, I am firmly convinced, how the endings were supposed to work.

[Maxster_]

humes spork wrote...

Maxster_ wrote...

Therefore, Crucible is still a nonsense and can not exist.

I would very strongly urge you to go back and rewatch the Vendetta conversation again, if "the Protheans didn't design the Crucible, therefore it's a plot hole" is a lynchpin of your argument.

You completely missed the point, as always.
Point was about crucible can not be retconned into something that makes sense, in any way, other than full rewrite of entire ME3(crucible concept is a huge part of ME3, and it makes no sense, and can not be retconned into something sensical without rewriting ME3).
Part about fact, that protheans could not design crucible - is a minor part of my point, a counter to an example.

[Nykara]

There was some things I liked about ME3 on the whole, and some things I didn't. When it comes down to it though the ending of a trilogy is the part that is supposed to wrap up the entire story. All of what you've worked towards in the last games, and yes an ending can make or break a game, a movie, a story. Anything. The ending broke ME making playing the rest of it pretty pointless because what you are working towards is crap.

Ive watched movies through and not watched them again because they ended badly, or didn't come to a proper conclusion making the journey pointless. Mass Effect is not much different. The journey is pointless because you are essentially working towards nothing. There is no 'good' option to be working towards.

[TurianRebel212]

I don't judge ME3 on the endings alone. I think it's a great game. And the endings are not great. They're not good. They're not okay or decent. They suck.

So I'm not one of those people.

However, when you compare ME3 to it's predecessors there is clearly a disconnect in terms of lore and narrative and also overall quality.

It's amazing really, that you can say "ME3 is a great game, but it's still a huge disappointment".

That's how special ME1 and ME2 are. I've never really recognized how amazing those two games are until I've played ME3 multiple times. Those games are spectacular. I can't think of any other 1st and 2nd game of a series that's even close to ME1 and ME2. Maybe. Maybe. Half-life and Half-life 2. Maybe.

[Jere85]

Its like masturbating for 5 hours straight without a payoff.

[humes spork]

Maxster_ wrote...

Part about fact, that protheans could not design crucible - is a minor part of my point, a counter to an example.

...and if you had simply listened to my advice and rewatched the Vendetta conversation, which I will link for your convenience here and even go so far as to quote,

Vendetta, in Mass Effect 3 during "Priority: Thessia", says outright and verbatim [emphasis mine]...

The Crucible is not of Prothean design. It is the work of countless galactic cycles stretching back millions of years. Each cycle adds to it. Each improves upon it. Thus far, none have successfully defeated the Reapers with it.

it would be make clear to you the Protheans didn't design it. Like organic species during ME3, they were following design schematics. Who designed the Crucible is unknown, and this is explicitly exposited to you in the course of the game. That might be a problem when your entire argument the Crucible is "undesignable" is premised upon it having been designed by the Protheans.

Modifié par humes spork, 13 février 2013 - 04:05 .

[humes spork]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Atekimagus wrote...
Well in my endings, the normandy flies away again under her own power, so I assume we can dismiss the whole no technology claim entirely.

I was talking about the original endings. The Normandy didn't fly away in those. The EC retconned that aspect out of existence, but I think it was fully intended by those who wrote the originals and that the EC had to be pushed through against their resistance.

And, as I mentioned in the other thread, in every original ending save low-EMS destroy, Joker still walks away from the Normandy crash. He's the focal point of the scene, to wit.

[EDIT/NOTE: Which honestly, Joker's medical condition made little sense to me in the first place. OI is a genetic disorder, and even ME1 states outright gene therapy and implantation have made diseases such as this a trivial matter since they can be rectified in utero. And, even if Joker's condition wasn't cured such, it's also exposited SA military recruits receive basic gene therapy and implantation. Maybe "Vrolik's syndrome" isn't OI, it's not discussed in detail in the context of ME.

Obviously, Cerberus was able to do something for him the Systems Alliance couldn't, or wouldn't, since he can at least hobble in ME2 when in ME1 he still needed crutches. It was still an issue for him in ME2 and 3, so we can rule out that Cerberus was able to completely cure him but was at least able to offer some form of palliative care.

Still, it is what it is. In the context of ME's narrative, Joker can't walk without assistance, and without some form of safety precautions it's unlikely he would have survived the crash at all, let alone in a condition in which he can walk. So, if you're looking for an instance that gives credence to no technological dark age, there you have it.]

Modifié par humes spork, 13 février 2013 - 04:37 .

[The Interloper]

 

Maxster_wrote...I like how you completely ignored my other points. I take it as you being unable to counter them, and therefore agreeing with me.

You never responded to SilverExiles comments on your assertions. Does that mean you admit that he was correct? At any rate, I don’t have the time to discuss every single point. This wall of text strains my limits as it is and I left some points go unaddressed. And on numerous issues, like the Dark Energy plot, you have relentlessly strawmanned my argument and ignored all attempts to set you straight, so unless that stops I will not waste my time on those subjects. But you may continue to waste yours, if you prefer! By all means, hack at the positions you imagine me to hold. It’s quite amusing. 

Saren: I will explain this only one more time. Saren could launch coordinated geth, merc, and bomb attacks throughout the citadel (and possibly C-Sec HQ, especially in the case of bombs). A few dozen gunmen loose in the streets of a relatively peaceful city will cause chaos and will draw the full attention of the police (especially the riot squad and the Spectres, the most powerful groups), and Saren could field as many as a few thousand. Possibly more. While the city reels he goes to the council chambers, with disguised mercs as backup and his spectre status as the only authorization he needs. He would be augmented by Sovereign and the mercs could have sentry turrets and such. He would only need to survive long enough to hand control to Sovereign. And unless anyone has the codes from Vigil, there’s no chance of that control being wrestled it away once that happens, as Shepard was able to do.

Rather than trying to counter all that, you have instead pretended my plan was, among other things, “he being alone,” Saren attacking the wards with a few geth, Saren using only Geth, dependent on “entire C-Sec organization… go to that exact ward,” attacking only one ward, as dependent on C-Sec being crushed (when they would only need to be kept confused and distracted for a short period of time), and have not addressed the bombs or Saren being augmented at all.

What is more, in this version Eden Prime would have never occurred (the conduit not being needed). So nobody would know what is going on or what the stakes are. How could C-Sec or the Spectres effectively fight Saren when they don’t know he’s even an enemy? How could they properly defend the “Citadel master control panel” when they don’t know that even exists? How could they effectively counter a multi-pronged surprise attack with the clarity, speed and accuracy they would need (not only if they’re going to stop Saren but if they’re going to realize that Saren needs stopping at all)? You say my plan depends on “C-Sec consists entirely of idiots”; I say your argument depends on C-Sec being a bunch of geniuses who will connect the dots within a matter of minutes on almost no evidence.

And even if the conduit was needed, why does Saren need to be the one to use the beacons? He’s the perfect insider. Could he not stay on the citadel and plot while another organic handles the beacons for Sovy?

Maxster_ wrote... Of course. That doesn't help…bypass C-Sec in any way.

/facedesk
You just admitted as much. (I’m ignoring the crushing part, because I never argued for that.)

Maxster_ wrote... Citadel Fleet, was very large and capable for a long time So you just insisting on completely ignoring the codex, to "prove" your "point". Funny, ignoring lore in a discussion about lore.

And you’re insisting that the codex trumps what is actually said in the game. So it seems that ME1 is contradicting itself, no? (Though in truth it’s not; your codex entry and my conversation are not mutually exclusive. Sure, the Citadel fleet existed. I never said otherwise. I said it “did not exist before, at least not the same numbers and positioning as usual.”  The council mustered up even more ships when Sovy revealed himself.)

Cerberus and the Krogan: This issue is getting bogged down in minutia, so let’s take a step back. You are essentially making the ridiculous assertion that Cerberus has no reason to oppose the cure when Cerberus, by definition, wants all alien races to be as weak as possible so humanity can dominate. A cured Krogan race would be stronger than a Krogan race with the genophage, harder to exterminate and more difficult to control, regardless of whether or not they have a fleet. So there’s that. Even if it’s not the strongest reason, it’s still a reason.

As for whether or not they’d be a threat worth TIM’s time, the combined might of the Asari, Salarians, and Turians couldn’t beat the Krogan without the genophage. This is a fact. Their fleets were not the decisive reason, as you keep implying. Take away the genophage and you take away the main thing keeping the Krogan from being a threat; give enough time for their population to grow and they’ll be able to accommodate new potential rivals like Humans as well. Moreover the cure would not only speed along the Krogan’s re-integration with galactic society at large (their anti-social attitude is largely a side-effect of the genophage, as Mordin explains) but signals a willingness to forgive and accept the Krogan back into the fold in the first place. If the Krogan are accepted as part of society again then they might well gain the political rights and/or economic resources to build/buy a fleet again. Why would TIM, a racist, take the chance of another competitor regaining their strength? Best to nip it at the bud. Or at least try.

You also asserted that the Krogan are more valuable to Cerberus as an ally when 1. Cerberus doesn’t believe that humanity should ever need alien races (unless they’re slaves like the Rachni), regardless how helpful they might be and 2. If the Krogan are powerful enough to be a threat to the three council races, they are certainly a threat to humanity (and you did not provide any details whatsoever as to how they could be used to “dissolve the council” at all, much less without becoming a threat to humanity if the alliance ever broke down. Which would happen, because TIM clearly has no intention of letting humanity share power) 3. The Krogan are notoriously intractable and difficult to control, as the Krogan rebellion proves. You made the wild and unfounded claim that the rebellions happened because the Krogans were “used as cannon fodder in a war they never needed, And then cast aside” when in fact “For a brief period the krogan were hailed as the saviors of the galaxy and were given not only the conquered rachni worlds but other planets in Citadel space to colonise, in gratitude for their help. The Citadel Council even commissioned a statue for the Presidium…to honor the krogan soldiers who died defending Citadel space.But…krogan population swelled to unprecedented numbers. Overcrowded and running out of resources, the krogan spread out to forcibly claim other worlds—worlds already inhabited by races loyal to the Citadel.” Yes, the Krogan were generously compensated, and yes, they still turned on their own
benefactors and came close to winning. My point stands.

You then went off on a long and rambling tangent about how the Council exploits non or lesser Council races and then concluded that “this is what will happen to humanity” when humanity is on the council. They have the same diplomatic power and privileges as the other three, and almost as much practical power. If you have proof otherwise, then please give it, and not hide behind assertions. At any rate, as I recall your point was that the council was a bigger threat, but TIM tries to kill the council too, remember?

Maxster_ wrote... which you have presented as mine (argument) with "when they are only primitive because of the genophage". And my real argument being Krogans are no threat to the humanity, they have no fleets, and subjugated by the council, and condemned for confinement on their planet.There, of course, nothing about them being primitive. 

 I said “You argued that the cured Krogan are still harmless because they are primitive and have no ships, when they are only primitive because of the genophage (and the social stagnation it caused) in the first place.” Bold part is your claim (as I understand it), the rest was my response to it. You incorporated my response into my representation of your argument in a weird attempt to “prove” that I had stramanned you. Instead you stramanned me. Again.   Please read more carefully. Or ask for clarification.

Maxster_ wrote...you haven't even bothered to give actual proof, from codex. Because there isn't.

You accuse me of not providing proof in response to my claim that the game doesn’t provide any information at all? How astute of you. /sarcasm

Maxster_ wrote...They need only to ensure that genophage will not be cured.

One last time; wrong. They want that and they want the Krogan to join them. If they openly try to stop the cure then not only will the Krogans not help them but the humans and the Turians, who want krogan help also and would blame the Salarians for losing it, probably won’t either. And you yourself argued that Cerberus shouldn’t care about the Krogan all that much because the Reapers are the bigger threat. Why are the Salarians any different? Shepard is a convenient proxy who can carry out Salarian will without the salarians having to lift a finger or incriminate themselves. And then there’s the question of whether or not an STG force could kill Wrex, Shepard, Shepards squad, the turian and Krogan troops all while fighting off/evading Reaper forces. And also a large portion of the Salarian military (like Kirrahe) think the Dalatrass’ idea is bull and probably wouldn’t go along with it, or leak it to the Krogans if it were ordered.

Maxster_ wrote... counter my example of someone's opinions, presenting said opinion as main.

. You said that that opinion meant that my position “was void.” I took efforts to counter that.  At any rate, I think the most important thing you yourself claimed back there was “This, of course, makes absolutely no sense, without defining what is "story's core meaning and point" .For example, reapers arrival in full strength, completely nullifies ME overarching plot, changing it core meaning("reapers deliberately allowed events of ME1 to happen", instead of "protheans acts helped us to stop the reapers") and point.” Sorry, but no, that’s not the core meaning and point, as I had tried to explain to you earlier. But again, you failed to understand, and your arguments reflect this.

Maxster_ wrote...What you said is a full retcon of Crucible's presentation and rewriting of all its
story.

The Crucible’s story, but not the story structure at large. That was what I was talking about, and that’s what I thought you meant when you said fixing it would require “rewriting entire story.”

Maxster_ wrote... Protheans did not had full knowledge of relay technology…etc

Most of your points apply to the conduit too. The only exception is the idea of interfacing with the Citadel relay in particular. But the crucible would easily be rewritten so it doesn’t need the relays. It could just be a bomb designed to hurt reapers(based on data from previous cycles) and they just lure most of the reapers into a showdown at earth and then try to set it off there. Or something similar. It would still be a plot contrivance, sure. But not nonsensical.

Maxster_ wrote... But that, of course, doesn't meant that there is no more alternatives than you presented.

Your own argument against the reapers being able to fly in from Darkspace was if that were possible, then
“there is absolutely no reason for Sovereign to act”(your words). Now you’ve just admitted that your own idea does the same. So your idea is no improvement by your own standards. As for the reapers being weakened by opening the relay from their side, they are/could be similarly weakened by having to expend energy driving for three years and then facing a galaxy that’s semi- ready for them (which is far more ready then usual) and still has control over the mass relays. They could have just added a few lines about that to show that the reapers are weaker then they usually are.

Modifié par The Interloper, 15 février 2013 - 06:58 .

[Maxster_]

humes spork wrote...

Maxster_ wrote...

Part about fact, that protheans could not design crucible - is a minor part of my point, a counter to an example.

...and if you had simply listened to my advice and rewatched the Vendetta conversation, which I will link for your convenience here and even go so far as to quote,

Vendetta, in Mass Effect 3 during "Priority: Thessia", says outright and verbatim [emphasis mine]...

The Crucible is not of Prothean design. It is the work of countless galactic cycles stretching back millions of years. Each cycle adds to it. Each improves upon it. Thus far, none have successfully defeated the Reapers with it.

it would be make clear to you the Protheans didn't design it. Like organic species during ME3, they were following design schematics. Who designed the Crucible is unknown, and this is explicitly exposited to you in the course of the game. That might be a problem when your entire argument the Crucible is "undesignable" is premised upon it having been designed by the Protheans.

Are you daft?

Maxster_ wrote...
No amount of retcons and clarification would change reapers arrival, Cerberus Empire, or Crucible to a something sensical,

Hardly. For example;
introduce the crucible earlier in the series. Have vigil mention it when
you meet him in ME1, find traces of the plans during ME2.


Clarify that it’s some sort of device that can harness the power of the
mass relays into a massive EMP burst that can destroy the reapers, or
something; the protheans either developed it or almost developed
it during the reaper invasion using their understanding of the relays
(just like the conduit). A few added bits of dialogue and maybe an added
mission and suddenly we aren’t just building a superweapon when we have
no idea what it does.

from a post, to which you answered.

Seeing your severe problems with reading comprehension, i'll try it with simple concepts, and shorter phrases.

1. That was a discussion about a retcon of the Crucible. I said that no amount of retcons will make it plausible, only a full rewrite.
To which opponent countered with an example. And i, in turn, showed, that particular example is not plausible, and makes no sense.
Therefore your entire post is void. Completely unrelated to a topic we were discussing - a retcon of Crucible to make it plausible.


2. And that retcon, which you pointing at, about protheans creating the Crucible - was not made up by me. It was an example, provided by my opponent.
So, not only your post is completely unrelated to a discussion, it also directed at wrong person.

[Maxster_]

[quote]The Interloper wrote...

 [quote]Maxster_wrote...I like how you completely ignored my other points. I take it as you being unable to counter them, and therefore agreeing with me. [/quote]
You never responded to SilverExiles comments on your assertions. Does that mean you admit that he was correct? At any rate, I don’t have the time to discuss every single point. This wall of text strains my limits as it is and I left some points go unaddressed. And on numerous issues, like the Dark Energy plot, you have relentlessly strawmanned my argumentand ignored all attempts to set you straight, so unless that stops I will not waste my time on those subjects. But you may continue to waste yours, if you prefer! By all means, hack at the positions you imagine me to hold. It’s quite amusing. 
[/quote]
Stop your lies already, you produced statement
[quote]And I know that ME2's main plot gets a bad rap sometimes, but I think it's worth noting that it was clearly written with the Dark Energy ending in mind, and while DE had it's own issues, it did explain many of
the weak points of ME2 (why the human reaper mattered, why the collectors were in such a hurry to build it, what the deal with Haestrom was, why the collector base decision was significant, and so on).[/quote]
In which you tried to attack my position, about ME2 making no sense, with an obviously false assertion, that ME2's story makes sense, because there was dark energy plot. Which of course, never existed in ME2.
And starting to "proving" your statement about dark energy plot existing in ME2, with an interviews.
[quote]

Lead writer Drew Karpyshyn explicitly stated in an interview (at strategy informer)that while they were writing mass effect 2, they had the dark energy ending in mind and thus put in things like Haestrom and the human reaper to set it up for ME3. That's not headcannon. Sorry.[/quote]
Of course, you forgot to mention, that dark energy plot was only an idea, which was dropped completely in a middle of an development process, and Karpyshin left ME team.
And of course, there was no dark energy in ME2 plot.
And thus, your point, by which you attacked my point about ME2's story making no sense, is void.
There is no dark energy plot in ME2, and ME2's story makes no sense.

And now you are trying to sweep entire discussion under the rug, and pretending that it never happened, and you never tried to "prove" that some in-universe events and information is exists, because of some out-of-universe statements says that it was one of ideas, that was completely dropped.

Your lies won't work, unless you remove or rewrite your posts in that thread. Stop that. [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/wizard.png[/smilie]

[quote]
Saren: I will explain this only one more time. Saren could launch coordinated geth, merc, and bomb attacks throughout the citadel(and possibly C-Sec HQ, especially in the case of bombs). A few dozen gunmen loose in the streets of a relatively peaceful city will cause chaos and will draw the full attention of the police (especially the riot squad and the Spectres, the most powerful groups), and Saren could field as many as a few thousand.
[/quote]
Oh sure, now it is few thousands of armed mercs with heavy weaponry. Smuggled to a Citadel, and no one even noticing.
And of course, it will not bring chaos in C-Sec. They will only send some special response squads, and that's all.
They will not remove security from presidium, they will not remove security from Citadel Tower. And they will not use spectres for that, they have marines of an entire Citadel Fleet, in case of emergency.
Of course, you will pretend that Citadel Fleet never existed, as always.
And of course, if fight will get close to a presidium - those marines will be sent there. Of course, even few thousands of mercs(even if that would even be possible, which isn't) will not make fleet to send
reinforcements.

[quote]Possibly more. While the city reels he goes to the council chambers, with disguised mercs as backup and his
spectre status as the only authorization he needs.
[/quote]
And none of the mercs will be let into a presidium.
So it will be a lone spectre against presidium and Citadel Tower security.
[quote]

He would be augmented by Sovereign and the mercs could have sentry turrets and such. He would only need to survive long enough to hand control to Sovereign.
[/quote]
Except those mercs will not be let into a presidium. Especially armed mercs.
You continuing to present C-Sec as a bunch of idiots, to make your nonsensical assumptions to work.
[quote]
 And unless anyone has the codes from Vigil, there’s no chance of that control being wrestled it away once that happens, as Shepard was able to do.
[/quote]
This will of course never happen, because those mercs will not be let into a presidium even, and of course not
into a  Citadel Tower.
[quote]
Rather than trying to counter all that, you have instead pretended my plan was, among other things, “he being alone,”
Saren attacking the wards with a few geth, Saren using only Geth, dependent on “entire C-Sec organization… go to that exact ward,” attacking only one ward, as dependent on C-Sec being crushed (when they would only need to be
kept confused and distracted for a short period of time), and have not addressed the bombs or Saren being augmented at all.
[/quote]
Of course.
Because those mercs will never be let into a presidium.
Therefore, either he'll get into a presidium alone, or he'll attack C-Sec with those mercs to get access to a presidium, and thus will face entire presidium and Citadel Tower security, with addition of several spectres.
And he will fail at that.
Unless entire C-Sec will be crushed, it will not be possible. And to crush entire C-Sec, you need a lot more than few thousands of mercs armed with a heavy weaponry, which is already impossible.
[quote]What is more, in this version Eden Prime would have never occurred (the conduit not
being needed). So nobody would know what is going on or what the stakes are.
[/quote]
This version is impossible, it will not happen ever. No one will let armed(or unarmed)mercs into a presidium.
[quote]
How could C-Sec or the Spectres effectively fight Saren when they don’t know he’s even an enemy?
[/quote]
Either he will be forced to attack C-Sec in attempt to get those mercs into a presidium, or he will be alone against entire presidium and Citadel Tower security, as is spectres.
[quote]
How could they properly defend the “Citadel master control panel” when they don’t know that even exists?
[/quote]
They use that console to open and close Citadel.
[quote]

How could they effectively counter a multi-pronged surprise attack with the clarity, speed and accuracy they would need (not only if they’re going to stop Saren but if they’re going to realize that Saren needs
stopping at all)?
[/quote]
Because he either be alone in Citadel Tower, and will be killed by C-Sec, when he try something, - or he will
be forced to attack presidium security, and thus will expose himself.
[quote]
You say my plan depends on “C-Sec consists entirely of idiots”; I say your argument depends on C-Sec being a bunch of geniuses who will connect the dots within a matter of minutes on almost no evidence.
[/quote]
They don't need to connect the dots.
They will not let mercs in a presidium, and thus Saren will be alone.
And if he tries to attack presidium security with his mercs - there will be no need to connect the dots.
And if he tries to open Citadel in a case of an attack of geth fleet - he will be dead immediately.
[quote]
And even if the conduit was needed, why does Saren need to be the one to use the beacons? He’s the perfect insider. Could he not stay on the citadel and plot while another organic handles the beacons for Sovy?
[/quote]
Possibly because he is being indoctrinated for almost 2 decades, and thus being most useful tool of the Sovereign.
And he was only accused because of Tali. If not for her - he will not be stripped of his spectre status.
[quote]
[quote]Maxster_ wrote... Of course. That doesn't help…bypass C-Sec in any way. [/quote] /facedesk You just admitted as much. (I’m ignoring the crushing part, because I never argued for that.)
[/quote]
I like how you completely altered my post to "prove" your point.
"Strawman", again.
And my post was
[quote]
Of course. Except that doesn't help to crush or bypass C-Sec in any way. Or other spectres, for that matters.
[bUnless[/b] he smuggles hunderd thousand geth and mercs(or at least several tens of
thousands) - that will crush the C-Sec, and fastly. Of course, that is not just implausible, that is plainly impossible.[/quote]
[quote]
[quote]Maxster_
wrote... Citadel Fleet, was very large and capable for a long time So you just insisting on completely ignoring the codex, to "prove" your "point". Funny, ignoring lore in a discussion about lore. [/quote]
And you’re insisting that the codex trumps what is actually said in the game. So it seems that ME1 is contradicting itself, no? (Though in truth it’s not; your codex entry and my conversation are not mutually
exclusive. Sure, the Citadel fleet existed. I never said otherwise. I said it “did not exist before, at least not the same numbers and positioning as usual.”  The council mustered up even more ships when Sovy revealed himself.)
[/quote]
Just admit that you were not paying attention. Or were deliberately lying.
I think it is latter, you are on your quest to present ME1 as horrible written.

You outright dismissed existance of a Citadel Fleet on numerous occasions.
Now you are pretending, that you somehow know exact number and strength of the Citadel Fleet before and after geth threat. Of course you don't and that strength was enough to Sovereign not to attack it directly, and to
close the Citadel after he docked, so that numerous and powerful fleet could not damage him in a final assault(which happened in game).
And of course, wiki is correct.
For example, video.
Udina: A Citadel Fleet could secure the entire region. Keep the geth from attacking any more of our colonies.

So, Citadel Fleet is capable of securing entire Attican Traverse.

Sure, small fleet. Minor. Not worth a mention.

And of course, Council made a mistake when they divided fleet to defend all directions. And that backfired, when Saren closed Citadel, and Sovereign closed all nearby relays. They couldn't get that divided fleet
back, and couldn't get any reinforcements from races fleets.

[quote]
Cerberus and the Krogan:
This issue is getting bogged down in minutia, so let’s take a step back. You are essentially making the ridiculous assertion that Cerberus has no reason to oppose the cure when Cerberus, by definition, wants all alien races to be as weak as possible so humanity can dominate.
[/quote]
That is another nonsense.
Of course, Cerberus have no reason to oppose cure, because krogans are not threat, and even cured they will not be a threat for a several centuries.
In a constrast of a Council. Which is a potential threat,
and due to harsh Council treaties, it will stay as a threat to a point, when Council decides to get rid of humanity.
And knowing how they dealt with Batarians, Quarians and Krogans - they will decide to get rid of the Systems Alliance.
So, krogans are not threat and never will be, but Council races are potential, and close to a direct, threat.
And of course, there is no reason to oppose cure, especially when there is a enormous threat of the Council. To completely ignore Council's threat to Systems Alliance - that would be utterly stupid position for a human
supremacist like TIM.
It would be also stupid for Systems Alliance leadership, who are not so bold as TIM, although they obviously support same views.
That would be stupid for any person who would ever get in SA leadership. Because of the responsibility for a well being of SA.

[quote]A cured Krogan race would be stronger than a Krogan race with the genophage, harder to exterminate and more difficult to control, regardless of whether or not they have a fleet. So there’s that. Even if it’s not the strongest
reason, it’s still a reason.
[/quote]
[smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/lol.png[/smilie]
Either way they pose absolutely no threat to Systems Alliance, and thus humanity.
And humanity does not need to control krogans, they have no irrational hatred for krogans like salarians or asari.

A dangerous entity called Council, is by orders of magintude more dangerous and completely out of control. They are the real threat to a Systems Alliance. And any means of diverting their attention to something else, like cured krogans, or building industry krogans - is a benefit for humanity.

[quote]As for whether or not they’d be a threat worth TIM’s time, the combined might of the Asari, Salarians, and
Turians couldn’t beat the Krogan without the genophage. This is a fact.
[/quote]
History is written by the victors.
Who needed to justify their use of biological weapons. Which breaks their own conventions, which were made "to distance Council from a brutal krogan warfare", no less. So much for a distancing. [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/lol.png[/smilie] All is justified by a greater good.
Trust the Council.

Of course they could beat them, they destroyed much of the krogans industrial potential in a first days of war, and continued to dwindle krogans efforts in that direction.
But to free planets taken by krogans or gifted to them by the Council - there would be a long and
bloody war, which will costs a lot of asari, salarian and turian lives.
Using a genophage was an easy solution, which not only started to lower krogan numbers, but also broken their morale, and resulted in a infights.
[quote]
Their fleets were not the decisive reason, as you keep implying.
[/quote]
Of course it was. Without fleets, krogans on a surface is just a target practice.
[quote]

Take away the genophage and you take away the main thing keeping the Krogan from being a threat; give enough time for their population to grow and they’ll be able to accommodate new potential rivals like Humans
as well.
[/quote]
Which is of course pure nonsense, because they have no fleets, and no one would ever let them build those.
And they have no industrial potential to do that, and no one will let them to create space industry, less help them to create one.
[quote]
Moreover the cure would not only speed along the Krogan’s re-integration with galactic society at large (their anti-social attitude is largely a side-effect of the genophage, as Mordin explains) but signals a willingness to forgive and accept the Krogan back into the fold in the first place.
[/quote]
Krogans society changed because of genophage, and it can not instantly change back.
And of course, that contradicts your statement that krogans are inherently untrustworthy, and helping them will end up in another krogans rebellions.
And of course, it is impossible without industrial  potential. Although it would be good for Council and krogans weaking
themselves - thus Systems Alliance will be stronger, and perhaps even break free from Council's restrictions.
But it is impossible, for numerous reasons.
[quote]
If the Krogan are accepted as part of society again then they might well gain the political rights and/or economic resources to build/buy a fleet again.
[/quote]
And now you operating on a premise, that krogans can built a competing fleet again, sometime, even when that is not allowed by Citadel treaties, and no one of big 3 will help them or even allow them to reach fleet  potential of an Council associate, not to surpass Council's strength, which would be in a direct violation of a Council treaties.

You are basically saying that Krogans is a threat to a Systems Alliance, because someday Council, who hates them, will allow them to build fleet which surpasses combined might of big 3, and Systems Allaince together, in a direct violation of Council treaties, which Council enforces on every lesser race member throughout it's entire history, to ensure Council's domination.
Riiight [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/wizard.png[/smilie]
Just like that.

[quote]
 Why would TIM, a racist, take the chance of another competitor regaining their strength? Best to nip it at the bud. Or at least try.
[/quote]
Supremacist is not a racist. But nevermind, you already shown, that you have no idea about politics at all.

Krogans are not a threat to humanity at a current time.
And they will not became a threat to a humanity even in a several centuries, unless Council made them so. As is they will not become a threat to Council, if Council does not allow that.
If they'll be restored as a Council lesser race, they will get an Council associate status. This will not make them a threat to an Council, even if they somehow be able to create fleets to fulfill allowed number.
And that is unlikely, given that big 3 hates them.

And if they will not become Council lesser race - they will never get access to a Council economics, or systems to colonize, unless out of Council's space. And they will have no industrial potential to create enough fleets, and will not be allowed to create enough fleets to become a threat.
So they will live at a constant threat of a big 3, unable to even defend themselves.

And Council is a constant threat to humanity, and very dangerous, because being Council race, humanity will never be allowed to surpass Council's  strength.
[quote]
You also asserted that the Krogan are more valuable to Cerberus as an ally when
[/quote]
Potential ally, and a leverage to a Council. And not to a Cerberus, to Systems Alliance.
[quote]

1. Cerberus doesn’t believe that humanity should ever need alien races (unless they’re slaves like the Rachni), regardless how helpful they might be
[/quote]
You have no idea about Cerberus views.
Cerberus is a nationalist-survivalist organization, with a set task of advancing humanity so that humanity will not be eradicated.
Dominance is a part of that - ensuring that humanity will never be eradicated.
Anything that strenghtens humanity, or weaker it's enemies - is good.
And weaking Council is a good thing, even if Council acts irrational in case of krogans. Anything will do.

Those views are very popular in Systems Alliance public opinion, and in SA's leadership - to a point, when Terra Firma actually participates in elections.
And of course, to ensure survival of the humanity, using krogans is normal. As is using, for example, quarians(though those have almost no potential, due to their small numbers), or batarians(which is hardly possible, due to SA deal with the Council, - SA is used by Council to counter batarians).
[quote]
and 2. If the Krogan are powerful enough to be a threat to the three council races, they are certainly a threat to humanity
[/quote]
Which is impossible due to Council's hatred for krogans, and Council treaties.
They will never become a threat, because Council will not allow them.

[quote]
(and you did not provide any details whatsoever as to how they could be used to “dissolve the council” at all, much less without becoming a threat to humanity if the alliance ever broke down. Which would happen, because TIM clearly has no intention of letting humanity share power)
[/quote]
Part about "dissolving the council", is a part of my projection in the future. And there is not enough data to claim that projection is plausible, or even possible.
Dissolution of the Council could happen in that way - given enough lesser races willing to leave the Council, and thus throw out Council treaties.
Given enough lesser races, with enough economic potential - this could lead to painless separation of said races economics from big 3.
And this, in turn, will lead to a creation of a new alliance, lead by humanity, with enough potential to be comparable to a Council.

And thus, Council will be forced with a choice - start a war immediately, or wait and watch, how this new entity becomes more and more powerful, ensuring end of Council dominance.
Given that Council doesn't like to fight on their own, there is a high possibility that they will not outright attack separatists. That could lead to entire goverments fall, and ending Council's threat forever.
This is of course, only a projection, and for at least a century - during time of reapers war - it is impossible, there is not enough potential to turn the table like that.
Consider that as a possible goal for SA leadership after the war.

[quote]
3. The Krogan are notoriously intractable and difficult to control, as the Krogan rebellion proves. You made the wild and unfounded claim that the rebellions happened because the Krogans were “used as cannon fodder in a war they never needed, And then cast aside” when in fact “For a brief period the krogan were hailed as the saviors of the galaxy and were given not only the conquered rachni worlds but other planets in Citadel space to colonise, in gratitude for their help. The Citadel Council even commissioned a statue for the Presidium…to honor the krogan soldiers who died defending Citadel space.But…krogan population swelled to unprecedented numbers. Overcrowded and running out of resources, the krogan spread out to forcibly claim other worlds—worlds already inhabited by races loyal to the Citadel.” Yes, the Krogan were generously compensated, and yes, they still turned on their own
benefactors and came close to winning. My point stands.
[/quote]
History is written by the victors.
I'll back to that statement later.
[quote]
You then went off on a long and rambling tangent about how the Council exploits non or lesser Council races and then concluded that “this is what will happen to humanity” when humanity is on the council. They have the same diplomatic power and privileges as the other three, and almost as much practical power. If you have proof otherwise, then please give it, and not hide behind assertions. At any rate, as I recall your point was that the council was a bigger threat, but TIM tries to kill the council too, remember?
[/quote]

ME3's garbage writing, in a context of a mindless and insane Cerberus's actions - is out of the question. TIM suddenly went insane and full retard, for no reason.

As for humanity being a part of the Council - yeah, sure they are. And krogans were honorable victors of the Rachni wars, with an industrial and economic potential able to rival Council's, provided by the Council.
And look how great it worked out. For krogans.
Of course, krogans attacked Asari's colonies.
And why, exactly? They attacked a powerful enemy, with an enormous economic potential, and massive fleets - why?
They could just colonize worlds outside of Council's jurisdiction, or on borders of Coucil's space, or any potential colonies within Council's space.
But, Council is the one who grants colonization's rights.
So, Council, wary of growing krogans potential, and strength, decided to provoke them - by denying them any colonies, and at a same time - granting potential colonies to every one, except krogans.
No one gave Council that right - they just took it by force, and ensure that everyone obeys, by force.
And krogans are easy to provoke.

So, let's back to a rachni wars. They were bloody and costly, and there was a possibility of a defeat.
And then salarians came up with an idea - let's use some barbarians, animals, who turned their planet into a wasteland due to their aggressiveness. We will give them economic help, build space industry for them, and give them means of economic and military growth, teach them modern technology - and in turn, use their massive numbers as cannon fodder, as a means to end rachni's threat.
That worked well.
And then, some time after the end of rachni wars, Council started to realize, that krogans became more a threat than an asset, and their constant economic and military growth is a threat to a Council's domination.
And if they'll wait too long, krogans will become unstoppable.
Thus, provocations starts.

And when krogans openly attacked Council races - trap was sprung. Things like "pre-placed suicide freighters", carefully prepared computer viruses, surgical strikes at preparedly mapped space industries, like antimatter facilities, headquarters space stations sabotaged, and all that.
Krogans industrial potential was seriously crippled, as their fleets capabilities, and chain of command.

But Council underestimated the resolve of the krogans. New space stations were built, fleets capabilities somewhat restored, and "horde strikes" of badly armed krogans, supported by fleets, were a threat to a colonies.
War became too costly and long for a Council.
And some time after, turians arrived. By the time of krogan rebellions, turians already had a long history being interstellar civilization.
And they were much more powerful, comparatively, than a Systems Alliance was in time of joining.
Thus, turians not bowed to a Council dominance, they became the Council.
They could end the Council, but they had no need to, they became leaders of the Council, and half of Council's power.

And thus, krogans fate was sealed. They couldn't stand against another stellar civilization, with a military might rivalling other two. Krogans lost any hope of winning that war.

So, krogans were created as a powerful interstellar civilization by the Council, and only reason they had such potential was the Council. And when their potential started to rival Council's, Council became wary.
And then, conveniently, krogans attacked Council, when they could just wait for another 100-200 years, and Council would not stand a chance.

As for history - it is not hard to imagine next

For a brief period the humans, a former Council race and a members of a Citadel Council, were hailed as the saviors of the galaxy in a Reapers War and were given not only the freed, former batarian worlds, but other planets in Citadel space to colonise, in gratitude for their help. The Citadel Council even commissioned a statue for the Presidium…to honor the human soldiers and ships crew who died defending the galaxy.But…human
population swelled to unprecedented numbers. Overcrowded and running out of resources, the humans spread out to forcibly claim other worlds—worlds already inhabited by races loyal to the Citadel.

[quote]

    Maxster_ wrote... which you have presented as mine (argument) with "when they are only primitive because of the genophage". And my real argument being Krogans are no threat to the humanity, they have no fleets, and subjugated by the council, and condemned for confinement on their planet.There, of course, nothing about them being primitive.

 I said “You argued that the cured Krogan are still harmless because they are primitive and have no ships, when they are only primitive because of the genophage (and the social stagnation it caused) in the first place.” Bold part is your claim (as I understand it), the rest was my response to it. You incorporated my response into my representation of your argument in a weird attempt to “prove” that I had stramanned you. Instead you stramanned me. Again. {smilie}  Please read more carefully. Or ask for clarification.
[/quote]
No, dear camrade, you twisted my argument, added "primitive" part, which was never a part of that argument, and then - debunked that added, by you, part, and said that you debunked the argument.
This is a prime example of "strawman" fallacy.

I can prove that with my post, again.
[quote]As always, you are just deliberately ignore codex.
Read parts about space combat, and stop saying nonsense. Without fleets your "agressive alien race" is just a target practice for any sane admiral or political leader.
Krogans are no threat to the humanity, they have no fleets, and subjugated by the council, and condemned for confinement on their planet.
On the other hand, we have direct threat of the reapers, who would obliterate everyone, humanity included, and are not negotiable.
And we have potential threat of the council races, which fleets have potential to easily crush entire Systems Alliance.

If TIM wasn't insane mumbling idiot in ME3, as is Systems Alliance leadership - they could use krogans as a leverage for the council, by indirectly helping them(krogans) through Cerberus. This is dangerous political play, but it is to ensure human dominance and survival, so it is worth to try.
So, for TIM it would be wise to actually help krogans, and it perfectly fits his views. Well, his views before he went
full retard in ME3.
And Systems Alliance can easily disavow Cerberus actions, as "those insane terrorists who tries to undermine our effort to build a better and peaciful future for everyone".[/quote]
There is no word "primitive" in an entire post, and especially in bolded part, which you "quoted", actually twisted, to "prove" your "point".

Stop that demagogy, already. {smilie}
[quote]
And there is

    Maxster_ wrote...you haven't even bothered to give actual proof, from codex. Because there isn't.

You accuse me of not providing proof in response to my claim that the game doesn’t provide any information at all? How astute of you. /sarcasm
[/quote]
are you f..ing mocking me?
[quote]
[quote]At any rate, the series lore is pretty clear that the Krogans were quite outmatched during the rebellions in the spaceship department, and were still winning. It doesn’t go into detail, it just says that that was the way it was. If you think that’s stupid, then take it up with ME1.[/quote]

That's just pathetic.
You have just made up "argument" to "prove" your "point".
And of course, you haven't even bothered to give actual proof, from codex. Because there isn't.
[/quote]
That it exact full quote from my post.
You deliberately took that out of context, to make up another false statement.
Where in that quote, "game doesn't provide any information at all"? There isn't.

You know, if you take all words and letters from my posts, and then you'll make up some bull**** from those words, and say that it was my post - that will not be an argument.

You made up false statement, about krogans being outmatched during the rebellions in a context of spaceships.
And then i answered, that there is no proof of your statement in codex.
And now you are pretending, that there was no statement.
What the point in talking to you? You just make up false statement, and then accuse opponent on a base of quotes taken completely out of context. You can just write anything and pretend that i written it.

Stop that demagogy, already.
[quote]

    Maxster_ wrote...They need only to ensure that genophage will not be cured.

One last time; wrong. They want that and they want the Krogan to join them. If they openly try to stop the cure then not only will the Krogans not help them but the humans and the Turians, who want krogan help also and would blame the Salarians for losing it, probably won’t either.
[/quote]
1. That could be shown as a failed attempt in a narrative. To failed at succeeding, or failed at hiding involvement. Which could lead to another story twist.
2. That could be debunked by the salarians.
[quote]
And you yourself argued that Cerberus shouldn’t care about the Krogan all that much because the Reapers are the bigger threat. Why are the Salarians any different?
[/quote]
Because salarians reaction is irrational. They hate krogans, as a broken tool, and a remind of their mistake. And don't even think that they considering uplifting krogans was a mistake - more likely, they considering that their provocation that started krogan rebellions was too late, and should be made a centruty earlier. And calling that a mistake.

[quote]Shepard is a convenient proxy who can carry out Salarian will without the salarians having to lift a finger or incriminate themselves.
[/quote]
Of course. But if he will not, and expose that plan to a krogans?
[quote]
And then there’s the question of whether or not an STG force could kill Wrex, Shepard, Shepards squad, the turian and Krogan troops all while fighting off/evading Reaper forces.
[/quote]
1. there is no reason for reapers to be there.
2. They need only to kill Mordin and Eve, and present that as an accident, or rival krogans clan actions.
3. Or at least sabotage Shroud, to ensure no distribution of the cure. And they can be caught on doing that in a narrative.
[quote]And also a large portion of the Salarian military (like Kirrahe) think the Dalatrass’ idea is bull and probably wouldn’t go along with it, or leak it to the Krogans if it were ordered.
[/quote]
Of course. That could be a whole different story, completely unrelated to a Derperus. If nowadays EAWare were capable of good writing.
[quote]

    Maxster_ wrote... counter my example of someone's opinions, presenting said opinion as main.

. You said that that opinion meant that my position “was void.” I took efforts to counter that.  At any rate, I think the most important thing you yourself claimed back there was “This, of course, makes absolutely no sense, without defining what is "story's core meaning and point" .For example, reapers arrival in full strength, completely nullifies ME overarching plot, changing it core meaning("reapers deliberately allowed events of ME1 to happen", instead of "protheans acts helped us to stop the reapers") and point.” Sorry, but no, that’s not the core meaning and point, as I had tried to explain to you earlier. But again, you failed to understand, and your arguments reflect this.
[/quote]
I understood your point perfectly. Discussion about "story's core meaning and point" is pointless without defining those core meaning and points.
You produced an meaningless "argument" to pretend that nullfication of ME overarching story is not changing "story's core meaning and point" without defining said core meaning and point. As a means to differentiate one kind of garbage writing(entire ME3) from another(ending) to present one as "tolerable" and other as "intolerable".
Which is of course pure nonsense.
And then started to reinforce that nonsense through your numerous posts.
[quote]
[quote]Maxster_ wrote...What you said is a full retcon of Crucible's presentation and rewriting of all its
story. [/quote] The Crucible’s story, but not the story structure at large. That was what I was talking about, and that’s what I thought you meant when you said fixing it would require “rewriting entire story.”
[/quote]
Please.
No Mars nonsense. No Thessia's "reveal".
No derp like "we are building a device which we have no idea how it works and what it does, in a hope that it will win reapers war. Because we are all idiots".
To get rid of that idiocy, you need to completely rework ME3 and rewrite it.
[quote]

    Maxster_ wrote... Protheans did not had full knowledge of relay technology…etc

Most of your points apply to the conduit too. The only exception is the idea of interfacing with the Citadel relay in particular. But the crucible would easily be rewritten so it doesn’t need the relays. It could just be a bomb designed to hurt reapers(based on data from previous cycles) and they just lure most of the reapers into a showdown at earth and then try to set it off there. Or something similar. It would still be a plot contrivance, sure. But not nonsensical.
[/quote]
You need to rewrite ME3 for that.
And that will affect entire story structure - because then it will be even less reasons to bring Citadel to Earth(and in current ME3, there is no single reason for that).
And there is nothing to lure most of the reapers to that showdown at all.
And you will need to rewrite story, for that to make at least some sense.
[quote]

    Maxster_ wrote... But that, of course, doesn't meant that there is no more alternatives than you presented.

Your own argument against the reapers being able to fly in from Darkspace was if that were possible, then
“there is absolutely no reason for Sovereign to act”(your words). Now you’ve just admitted that your own idea does the same. So your idea is no improvement by your own standards.
[/quote]
Of course. I'm not a writer. And i never wanted to write entire story for a ME3, myself, to it make sense, and fully fit lore, and with a lot of details. Especially in a discussion about other things.
[quote]
    As for the reapers being weakened by opening the relay from their side, they are/could be similarly weakened by having to expend energy driving for three years and then facing a galaxy that’s semi- ready for them (which is far more ready then usual) and still has control over the mass relays. They could have just added a few lines about that to show that the reapers are weaker then they usually are.
[/quote]

That won't work, unless reapers can be defeated conventionally, or lost most of their fleet because of that weakness.

What you did - you just made them even more powerful, because they easily crushed entire galaxy with a minor losses even in weakened state.
And of course, due to them being idiots and spreading their forces to attack everyone at once, and not taking Citadel to shut down mass relays.
That means that they lost completely nothing, and there is absolutely no reason for them to sit in dark space for a thousands of years.
So yes, to make that sensical - you need to rewrite entire story of ME3.

Modifié par Maxster_, 15 février 2013 - 07:20 .

[Armass81]

Im glad they didnt use the dark energy as an ending, as it was proposed to be, it was just stupid.

The fact remains still that they do mention it in ME2... im not sure, could you call that a red herring now, perhaps? Or maybe something they will explain in future games if any.

They ultimately went with the singularity ending as we all know but boy did it ****** a lot of people off. Was it mainly cause the bioware gave us mixed signals with the Legion thing? Or maybe Casey is a fan of Ray Kurzweils theories and future vision and tought everyone else was on the board too?

Cause I totally did get where they were trying to go with the thing as soon as i read it in the leaks.  The AI conflict was definately a theme present, mainly during first game. You had a race of synthetics attacking organics and who had driven a race into exodus, and then you had a race of bigger synthetics who wiped out organics periodically. Even Javik had those during his cycle as he explained, and also couple of sidemission were dedicated to this theme too. But for some reason things just didnt come together at the end as this big reveal, rather it had almost everyone scratch their heads in confusion. Again im not talking about the catalyst, im talking his reasons. The catalyst I agree, was an unneccesary add. It could have been harbinger in its place.

Was bioware giving us mixed signals?

Modifié par Armass81, 15 février 2013 - 07:33 .

[silverexile17s]

The Interloper wrote...

 I seem to be a bit late returning, but there were so many doozy statements just had to say something. 

Maxster_ wrote... how "deep" and "thoughtful" your story is….doesn't mean that everything else that was in ME series was written good if it's premise and exposition makes no sense. you are saying, that something is meaningful and makes sense because it can be retconned into something meaningful..

Meaning derives from believable characters with cogent motivations being at the heart of the story. Some exposition flaws are hurt these core story elements, and some don’t. The latter kind (like all of the stuff you brought up) can drag down what would have been a good story, certainly. I have never denied this. But they can be changed (ie retconned), to either make sense or become nonsense, all without altering the stories core meaning and point. But the former (like the ending) destroys the story's meaning, and thus the story itself. This is a massive distinction and if you don't understand it's ramnifications that then there is simply nothing more to discuss.  

Maxter_ wrote...Stop pretending that some thoughts that was never part of a story is a proof that it exists in story.

All I am saying is that major parts of the story were written for a context (and an ending) that never materialized, and that if the matching context had been kept then said elements would have made much more sense. You have insisted on attacking these plot elements in the context of the ending that was presented in-game[/u]. That is not what I have been defending, ever, and I am through with explaining that to you. Or what “headcannon” means. 

Maxster_ wrote... I like how you completely ignored quotes from wiki. conversations, and codex entires, confirms my point.

Firstly, Saren. Anderson says outright on the Normandy that spectres can “go anywhere, do anything.” Gameplay shows that they have access to the council chambers in particular. Dialogue and the codex explicitly says that Port Hanshan’s security is “near unbreachable” specifically because it is not in council space. Matsuo says the Geth containers were “thoroughly scanned.” You and Silver both claimed that the Citadel’s security is very rigorous with no proof other than more things are outlawed there, which is a non-sequitor, and the Citadel’s active crime element is clear proof that the rules are successfully defied by average crooks like the Blue Suns (and at least one illegal AI) on a regular basis.

 The conduit allows Saren to transport troops into the presidium before anyone can realize it, sure, but Citadel security is clearly not omniscient, and not expecting such a bold attack, from the conduit or otherwise. Saren’s position, contacts and skill would make him the perfect insider to exploit these weaknesses, bring the citadel down from within. Instead he/Sovy acts as if he doesn’t have this massive tactical advantage and makes a galaxy-trotting expedition first priority while leaving a massive trail of destroyed colonies and botched bio-research programs and leading Shepard straight to Vigil. Making the villain pursue an object that allows him to break into a secure fortress he already had the keys to is dumb, plain and simple. 

You also argued, among other things, that a few reapers can easily kill all of the Krogan because their cannons are big, when the Krogans have survived a nuclear holocaust. You argued that the cured Krogan are still harmless because they are primitive and have no ships, when they are only primitive because of the genophage (and the social stagnation it caused) in the first place. You noted that Citadel fleet was around to oppose Sovereign no matter what Sovy did, but the Council's lines clearly show that the fleet’s strength and readiness was upgraded in response to Sovereign revealing his existence. You argued that the reapers being able to simply drive in from darkspace invalidates the plot when the alternative—that they couldn’t—just renders them idiots for trapping themselves in darkspace forever if Sovy failed. You asserted that they “lose completely nothing,” by waiting, without any attempt to counter my points to the contrary. You think that the line “the collectors intend to hit earth” somehow proves they intended to hit earth with one ship, and that what Shepard thinks Harby is planning is what Harby is actually planning. You say you think that “stating something as explained, doesn't make it so” yet have used assertions of proof, like “conversations, and codex entires, confirms my point” (that was yourentire rebuttal to in-game proof I submitted) as proof itself constantly.

Maxster_ wrote… there is no need to waste time on orbital bombardment before other races who are actual threat.

The reapers seem to agree with you, because their presence on Tuchanka was small. Now you’re openly creating imaginary plot holes.

Maxter_ wrote... ….(TIM) could…indirectly help them(krogans)... to ensure human dominance and survival, so it is worth to try.

Krogan Rebellions. Next.

Maxter_ wrote... just remove derpstroyer and Cerberus as an enemy, and add salarians or krogans(from rival clans).

. Wow. Just…wow. Really? That was the coup de’ grace to your ailing logical composure. I’d tell you to play the game again, but with your track record you’d just come back with an out-of-context bit of dialogue where the Dalatrass talks about how dangerous the Krogans are that “proves” your point she would fight them before fighting the reapers. [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/cool.png[/smilie] 

In regards to Saren attacking the Citadel any other way. the ONLY Reason the geth fleet did so well, was because the Council was cut off from reinforcements in the nearby systems because Saren closed the Relay Network from the master control unit, leaving the Citadel fleet stranded. If not for the Conduit, any attack Saren launched would be unable to reach the Council Chambers before the station sealed Sovergein out, or before the reinforcing fleets of every civilized species bore down on the geth fleet. So no, any other attack would have been doomed to failure. The Conduit offered everything needed for victory in one single swift movement.

[silverexile17s]

[quote]Maxster_ wrote...

[quote]The Interloper wrote...

 [quote]Maxster_wrote...I like how you completely ignored my other points. I take it as you being unable to counter them, and therefore agreeing with me. [/quote]
You never responded to SilverExiles comments on your assertions. Does that mean you admit that he was correct? At any rate, I don’t have the time to discuss every single point. This wall of text strains my limits as it is and I left some points go unaddressed. And on numerous issues, like the Dark Energy plot, you have relentlessly strawmanned my argumentand ignored all attempts to set you straight, so unless that stops I will not waste my time on those subjects. But you may continue to waste yours, if you prefer! By all means, hack at the positions you imagine me to hold. It’s quite amusing. 
[/quote]
Stop your lies already, you produced statement
[quote]And I know that ME2's main plot gets a bad rap sometimes, but I think it's worth noting that it was clearly written with the Dark Energy ending in mind, and while DE had it's own issues, it did explain many of
the weak points of ME2 (why the human reaper mattered, why the collectors were in such a hurry to build it, what the deal with Haestrom was, why the collector base decision was significant, and so on).[/quote]
In which you tried to attack my position, about ME2 making no sense, with an obviously false assertion, that ME2's story makes sense, because there was dark energy plot. Which of course, never existed in ME2.
And starting to "proving" your statement about dark energy plot existing in ME2, with an interviews.
[quote]

Lead writer Drew Karpyshyn explicitly stated in an interview (at strategy informer)that while they were writing mass effect 2, they had the dark energy ending in mind and thus put in things like Haestrom and the human reaper to set it up for ME3. That's not headcannon. Sorry.[/quote]
Of course, you forgot to mention, that dark energy plot was only an idea, which was dropped completely in a middle of an development process, and Karpyshin left ME team.
And of course, there was no dark energy in ME2 plot.
And thus, your point, by which you attacked my point about ME2's story making no sense, is void.
There is no dark energy plot in ME2, and ME2's story makes no sense.

And now you are trying to sweep entire discussion under the rug, and pretending that it never happened, and you never tried to "prove" that some in-universe events and information is exists, because of some out-of-universe statements says that it was one of ideas, that was completely dropped.

Your lies won't work, unless you remove or rewrite your posts in that thread. Stop that. [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/wizard.png[/smilie]

[quote]
Saren: I will explain this only one more time. Saren could launch coordinated geth, merc, and bomb attacks throughout the citadel(and possibly C-Sec HQ, especially in the case of bombs). A few dozen gunmen loose in the streets of a relatively peaceful city will cause chaos and will draw the full attention of the police (especially the riot squad and the Spectres, the most powerful groups), and Saren could field as many as a few thousand.
[/quote]
Oh sure, now it is few thousands of armed mercs with heavy weaponry. Smuggled to a Citadel, and no one even noticing.
And of course, it will not bring chaos in C-Sec. They will only send some special response squads, and that's all.
They will not remove security from presidium, they will not remove security from Citadel Tower. And they will not use spectres for that, they have marines of an entire Citadel Fleet, in case of emergency.
Of course, you will pretend that Citadel Fleet never existed, as always.
And of course, if fight will get close to a presidium - those marines will be sent there. Of course, even few thousands of mercs(even if that would even be possible, which isn't) will not make fleet to send
reinforcements.

[quote]Possibly more. While the city reels he goes to the council chambers, with disguised mercs as backup and his
spectre status as the only authorization he needs.
[/quote]
And none of the mercs will be let into a presidium.
So it will be a lone spectre against presidium and Citadel Tower security.
[quote]

He would be augmented by Sovereign and the mercs could have sentry turrets and such. He would only need to survive long enough to hand control to Sovereign.
[/quote]
Except those mercs will not be let into a presidium. Especially armed mercs.
You continuing to present C-Sec as a bunch of idiots, to make your nonsensical assumptions to work.
[quote]
 And unless anyone has the codes from Vigil, there’s no chance of that control being wrestled it away once that happens, as Shepard was able to do.
[/quote]
This will of course never happen, because those mercs will not be let into a presidium even, and of course not
into a  Citadel Tower.
[quote]
Rather than trying to counter all that, you have instead pretended my plan was, among other things, “he being alone,”
Saren attacking the wards with a few geth, Saren using only Geth, dependent on “entire C-Sec organization… go to that exact ward,” attacking only one ward, as dependent on C-Sec being crushed (when they would only need to be
kept confused and distracted for a short period of time), and have not addressed the bombs or Saren being augmented at all.
[/quote]
Of course.
Because those mercs will never be let into a presidium.
Therefore, either he'll get into a presidium alone, or he'll attack C-Sec with those mercs to get access to a presidium, and thus will face entire presidium and Citadel Tower security, with addition of several spectres.
And he will fail at that.
Unless entire C-Sec will be crushed, it will not be possible. And to crush entire C-Sec, you need a lot more than few thousands of mercs armed with a heavy weaponry, which is already impossible.
[quote]What is more, in this version Eden Prime would have never occurred (the conduit not
being needed). So nobody would know what is going on or what the stakes are.
[/quote]
This version is impossible, it will not happen ever. No one will let armed(or unarmed)mercs into a presidium.
[quote]
How could C-Sec or the Spectres effectively fight Saren when they don’t know he’s even an enemy?
[/quote]
Either he will be forced to attack C-Sec in attempt to get those mercs into a presidium, or he will be alone against entire presidium and Citadel Tower security, as is spectres.
[quote]
How could they properly defend the “Citadel master control panel” when they don’t know that even exists?
[/quote]
They use that console to open and close Citadel.
[quote]

How could they effectively counter a multi-pronged surprise attack with the clarity, speed and accuracy they would need (not only if they’re going to stop Saren but if they’re going to realize that Saren needs
stopping at all)?
[/quote]
Because he either be alone in Citadel Tower, and will be killed by C-Sec, when he try something, - or he will
be forced to attack presidium security, and thus will expose himself.
[quote]
You say my plan depends on “C-Sec consists entirely of idiots”; I say your argument depends on C-Sec being a bunch of geniuses who will connect the dots within a matter of minutes on almost no evidence.
[/quote]
They don't need to connect the dots.
They will not let mercs in a presidium, and thus Saren will be alone.
And if he tries to attack presidium security with his mercs - there will be no need to connect the dots.
And if he tries to open Citadel in a case of an attack of geth fleet - he will be dead immediately.
[quote]
And even if the conduit was needed, why does Saren need to be the one to use the beacons? He’s the perfect insider. Could he not stay on the citadel and plot while another organic handles the beacons for Sovy?
[/quote]
Possibly because he is being indoctrinated for almost 2 decades, and thus being most useful tool of the Sovereign.
And he was only accused because of Tali. If not for her - he will not be stripped of his spectre status.
[quote]
[quote]Maxster_ wrote... Of course. That doesn't help…bypass C-Sec in any way. [/quote] /facedesk You just admitted as much. (I’m ignoring the crushing part, because I never argued for that.)
[/quote]
I like how you completely altered my post to "prove" your point.
"Strawman", again.
And my post was
[quote]
Of course. Except that doesn't help to crush or bypass C-Sec in any way. Or other spectres, for that matters.
[bUnless[/b] he smuggles hunderd thousand geth and mercs(or at least several tens of
thousands) - that will crush the C-Sec, and fastly. Of course, that is not just implausible, that is plainly impossible.[/quote]
[quote]
[quote]Maxster_
wrote... Citadel Fleet, was very large and capable for a long time So you just insisting on completely ignoring the codex, to "prove" your "point". Funny, ignoring lore in a discussion about lore. [/quote]
And you’re insisting that the codex trumps what is actually said in the game. So it seems that ME1 is contradicting itself, no? (Though in truth it’s not; your codex entry and my conversation are not mutually
exclusive. Sure, the Citadel fleet existed. I never said otherwise. I said it “did not exist before, at least not the same numbers and positioning as usual.”  The council mustered up even more ships when Sovy revealed himself.)
[/quote]
Just admit that you were not paying attention. Or were deliberately lying.
I think it is latter, you are on your quest to present ME1 as horrible written.

You outright dismissed existance of a Citadel Fleet on numerous occasions.
Now you are pretending, that you somehow know exact number and strength of the Citadel Fleet before and after geth threat. Of course you don't and that strength was enough to Sovereign not to attack it directly, and to
close the Citadel after he docked, so that numerous and powerful fleet could not damage him in a final assault(which happened in game).
And of course, wiki is correct.
For example, video.
Udina: A Citadel Fleet could secure the entire region. Keep the geth from attacking any more of our colonies.

So, Citadel Fleet is capable of securing entire Attican Traverse.

Sure, small fleet. Minor. Not worth a mention.

And of course, Council made a mistake when they divided fleet to defend all directions. And that backfired, when Saren closed Citadel, and Sovereign closed all nearby relays. They couldn't get that divided fleet
back, and couldn't get any reinforcements from races fleets.

[quote]
Cerberus and the Krogan:
This issue is getting bogged down in minutia, so let’s take a step back. You are essentially making the ridiculous assertion that Cerberus has no reason to oppose the cure when Cerberus, by definition, wants all alien races to be as weak as possible so humanity can dominate.
[/quote]
That is another nonsense.
Of course, Cerberus have no reason to oppose cure, because krogans are not threat, and even cured they will not be a threat for a several centuries.
In a constrast of a Council. Which is a potential threat,
and due to harsh Council treaties, it will stay as a threat to a point, when Council decides to get rid of humanity.
And knowing how they dealt with Batarians, Quarians and Krogans - they will decide to get rid of the Systems Alliance.
So, krogans are not threat and never will be, but Council races are potential, and close to a direct, threat.
And of course, there is no reason to oppose cure, especially when there is a enormous threat of the Council. To completely ignore Council's threat to Systems Alliance - that would be utterly stupid position for a human
supremacist like TIM.
It would be also stupid for Systems Alliance leadership, who are not so bold as TIM, although they obviously support same views.
That would be stupid for any person who would ever get in SA leadership. Because of the responsibility for a well being of SA.

[quote]A cured Krogan race would be stronger than a Krogan race with the genophage, harder to exterminate and more difficult to control, regardless of whether or not they have a fleet. So there’s that. Even if it’s not the strongest
reason, it’s still a reason.
[/quote]
[smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/lol.png[/smilie]
Either way they pose absolutely no threat to Systems Alliance, and thus humanity.
And humanity does not need to control krogans, they have no irrational hatred for krogans like salarians or asari.

A dangerous entity called Council, is by orders of magintude more dangerous and completely out of control. They are the real threat to a Systems Alliance. And any means of diverting their attention to something else, like cured krogans, or building industry krogans - is a benefit for humanity.

[quote]As for whether or not they’d be a threat worth TIM’s time, the combined might of the Asari, Salarians, and
Turians couldn’t beat the Krogan without the genophage. This is a fact.
[/quote]
History is written by the victors.
Who needed to justify their use of biological weapons. Which breaks their own conventions, which were made "to distance Council from a brutal krogan warfare", no less. So much for a distancing. [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/lol.png[/smilie] All is justified by a greater good.
Trust the Council.

Of course they could beat them, they destroyed much of the krogans industrial potential in a first days of war, and continued to dwindle krogans efforts in that direction.
But to free planets taken by krogans or gifted to them by the Council - there would be a long and
bloody war, which will costs a lot of asari, salarian and turian lives.
Using a genophage was an easy solution, which not only started to lower krogan numbers, but also broken their morale, and resulted in a infights.
[quote]
Their fleets were not the decisive reason, as you keep implying.
[/quote]
Of course it was. Without fleets, krogans on a surface is just a target practice.
[quote]

Take away the genophage and you take away the main thing keeping the Krogan from being a threat; give enough time for their population to grow and they’ll be able to accommodate new potential rivals like Humans
as well.
[/quote]
Which is of course pure nonsense, because they have no fleets, and no one would ever let them build those.
And they have no industrial potential to do that, and no one will let them to create space industry, less help them to create one.
[quote]
Moreover the cure would not only speed along the Krogan’s re-integration with galactic society at large (their anti-social attitude is largely a side-effect of the genophage, as Mordin explains) but signals a willingness to forgive and accept the Krogan back into the fold in the first place.
[/quote]
Krogans society changed because of genophage, and it can not instantly change back.
And of course, that contradicts your statement that krogans are inherently untrustworthy, and helping them will end up in another krogans rebellions.
And of course, it is impossible without industrial  potential. Although it would be good for Council and krogans weaking
themselves - thus Systems Alliance will be stronger, and perhaps even break free from Council's restrictions.
But it is impossible, for numerous reasons.
[quote]
If the Krogan are accepted as part of society again then they might well gain the political rights and/or economic resources to build/buy a fleet again.
[/quote]
And now you operating on a premise, that krogans can built a competing fleet again, sometime, even when that is not allowed by Citadel treaties, and no one of big 3 will help them or even allow them to reach fleet  potential of an Council associate, not to surpass Council's strength, which would be in a direct violation of a Council treaties.

You are basically saying that Krogans is a threat to a Systems Alliance, because someday Council, who hates them, will allow them to build fleet which surpasses combined might of big 3, and Systems Allaince together, in a direct violation of Council treaties, which Council enforces on every lesser race member throughout it's entire history, to ensure Council's domination.
Riiight [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/wizard.png[/smilie]
Just like that.

[quote]
 Why would TIM, a racist, take the chance of another competitor regaining their strength? Best to nip it at the bud. Or at least try.
[/quote]
Supremacist is not a racist. But nevermind, you already shown, that you have no idea about politics at all.

Krogans are not a threat to humanity at a current time.
And they will not became a threat to a humanity even in a several centuries, unless Council made them so. As is they will not become a threat to Council, if Council does not allow that.
If they'll be restored as a Council lesser race, they will get an Council associate status. This will not make them a threat to an Council, even if they somehow be able to create fleets to fulfill allowed number.
And that is unlikely, given that big 3 hates them.

And if they will not become Council lesser race - they will never get access to a Council economics, or systems to colonize, unless out of Council's space. And they will have no industrial potential to create enough fleets, and will not be allowed to create enough fleets to become a threat.
So they will live at a constant threat of a big 3, unable to even defend themselves.

And Council is a constant threat to humanity, and very dangerous, because being Council race, humanity will never be allowed to surpass Council's  strength.
[quote]
You also asserted that the Krogan are more valuable to Cerberus as an ally when
[/quote]
Potential ally, and a leverage to a Council. And not to a Cerberus, to Systems Alliance.
[quote]

1. Cerberus doesn’t believe that humanity should ever need alien races (unless they’re slaves like the Rachni), regardless how helpful they might be
[/quote]
You have no idea about Cerberus views.
Cerberus is a nationalist-survivalist organization, with a set task of advancing humanity so that humanity will not be eradicated.
Dominance is a part of that - ensuring that humanity will never be eradicated.
Anything that strenghtens humanity, or weaker it's enemies - is good.
And weaking Council is a good thing, even if Council acts irrational in case of krogans. Anything will do.

Those views are very popular in Systems Alliance public opinion, and in SA's leadership - to a point, when Terra Firma actually participates in elections.
And of course, to ensure survival of the humanity, using krogans is normal. As is using, for example, quarians(though those have almost no potential, due to their small numbers), or batarians(which is hardly possible, due to SA deal with the Council, - SA is used by Council to counter batarians).
[quote]
and 2. If the Krogan are powerful enough to be a threat to the three council races, they are certainly a threat to humanity
[/quote]
Which is impossible due to Council's hatred for krogans, and Council treaties.
They will never become a threat, because Council will not allow them.

[quote]
(and you did not provide any details whatsoever as to how they could be used to “dissolve the council” at all, much less without becoming a threat to humanity if the alliance ever broke down. Which would happen, because TIM clearly has no intention of letting humanity share power)
[/quote]
Part about "dissolving the council", is a part of my projection in the future. And there is not enough data to claim that projection is plausible, or even possible.
Dissolution of the Council could happen in that way - given enough lesser races willing to leave the Council, and thus throw out Council treaties.
Given enough lesser races, with enough economic potential - this could lead to painless separation of said races economics from big 3.
And this, in turn, will lead to a creation of a new alliance, lead by humanity, with enough potential to be comparable to a Council.

And thus, Council will be forced with a choice - start a war immediately, or wait and watch, how this new entity becomes more and more powerful, ensuring end of Council dominance.
Given that Council doesn't like to fight on their own, there is a high possibility that they will not outright attack separatists. That could lead to entire goverments fall, and ending Council's threat forever.
This is of course, only a projection, and for at least a century - during time of reapers war - it is impossible, there is not enough potential to turn the table like that.
Consider that as a possible goal for SA leadership after the war.

[quote]
3. The Krogan are notoriously intractable and difficult to control, as the Krogan rebellion proves. You made the wild and unfounded claim that the rebellions happened because the Krogans were “used as cannon fodder in a war they never needed, And then cast aside” when in fact “For a brief period the krogan were hailed as the saviors of the galaxy and were given not only the conquered rachni worlds but other planets in Citadel space to colonise, in gratitude for their help. The Citadel Council even commissioned a statue for the Presidium…to honor the krogan soldiers who died defending Citadel space.But…krogan population swelled to unprecedented numbers. Overcrowded and running out of resources, the krogan spread out to forcibly claim other worlds—worlds already inhabited by races loyal to the Citadel.” Yes, the Krogan were generously compensated, and yes, they still turned on their own
benefactors and came close to winning. My point stands.
[/quote]
History is written by the victors.
I'll back to that statement later.
[quote]
You then went off on a long and rambling tangent about how the Council exploits non or lesser Council races and then concluded that “this is what will happen to humanity” when humanity is on the council. They have the same diplomatic power and privileges as the other three, and almost as much practical power. If you have proof otherwise, then please give it, and not hide behind assertions. At any rate, as I recall your point was that the council was a bigger threat, but TIM tries to kill the council too, remember?
[/quote]

ME3's garbage writing, in a context of a mindless and insane Cerberus's actions - is out of the question. TIM suddenly went insane and full retard, for no reason.

As for humanity being a part of the Council - yeah, sure they are. And krogans were honorable victors of the Rachni wars, with an industrial and economic potential able to rival Council's, provided by the Council.
And look how great it worked out. For krogans.
Of course, krogans attacked Asari's colonies.
And why, exactly? They attacked a powerful enemy, with an enormous economic potential, and massive fleets - why?
They could just colonize worlds outside of Council's jurisdiction, or on borders of Coucil's space, or any potential colonies within Council's space.
But, Council is the one who grants colonization's rights.
So, Council, wary of growing krogans potential, and strength, decided to provoke them - by denying them any colonies, and at a same time - granting potential colonies to every one, except krogans.
No one gave Council that right - they just took it by force, and ensure that everyone obeys, by force.
And krogans are easy to provoke.

So, let's back to a rachni wars. They were bloody and costly, and there was a possibility of a defeat.
And then salarians came up with an idea - let's use some barbarians, animals, who turned their planet into a wasteland due to their aggressiveness. We will give them economic help, build space industry for them, and give them means of economic and military growth, teach them modern technology - and in turn, use their massive numbers as cannon fodder, as a means to end rachni's threat.
That worked well.
And then, some time after the end of rachni wars, Council started to realize, that krogans became more a threat than an asset, and their constant economic and military growth is a threat to a Council's domination.
And if they'll wait too long, krogans will become unstoppable.
Thus, provocations starts.

And when krogans openly attacked Council races - trap was sprung. Things like "pre-placed suicide freighters", carefully prepared computer viruses, surgical strikes at preparedly mapped space industries, like antimatter facilities, headquarters space stations sabotaged, and all that.
Krogans industrial potential was seriously crippled, as their fleets capabilities, and chain of command.

But Council underestimated the resolve of the krogans. New space stations were built, fleets capabilities somewhat restored, and "horde strikes" of badly armed krogans, supported by fleets, were a threat to a colonies.
War became too costly and long for a Council.
And some time after, turians arrived. By the time of krogan rebellions, turians already had a long history being interstellar civilization.
And they were much more powerful, comparatively, than a Systems Alliance was in time of joining.
Thus, turians not bowed to a Council dominance, they became the Council.
They could end the Council, but they had no need to, they became leaders of the Council, and half of Council's power.

And thus, krogans fate was sealed. They couldn't stand against another stellar civilization, with a military might rivalling other two. Krogans lost any hope of winning that war.

So, krogans were created as a powerful interstellar civilization by the Council, and only reason they had such potential was the Council. And when their potential started to rival Council's, Council became wary.
And then, conveniently, krogans attacked Council, when they could just wait for another 100-200 years, and Council would not stand a chance.

As for history - it is not hard to imagine next

For a brief period the humans, a former Council race and a members of a Citadel Council, were hailed as the saviors of the galaxy in a Reapers War and were given not only the freed, former batarian worlds, but other planets in Citadel space to colonise, in gratitude for their help. The Citadel Council even commissioned a statue for the Presidium…to honor the human soldiers and ships crew who died defending the galaxy.But…human
population swelled to unprecedented numbers. Overcrowded and running out of resources, the humans spread out to forcibly claim other worlds—worlds already inhabited by races loyal to the Citadel.

[quote]

    Maxster_ wrote... which you have presented as mine (argument) with "when they are only primitive because of the genophage". And my real argument being Krogans are no threat to the humanity, they have no fleets, and subjugated by the council, and condemned for confinement on their planet.There, of course, nothing about them being primitive.

 I said “You argued that the cured Krogan are still harmless because they are primitive and have no ships, when they are only primitive because of the genophage (and the social stagnation it caused) in the first place.” Bold part is your claim (as I understand it), the rest was my response to it. You incorporated my response into my representation of your argument in a weird attempt to “prove” that I had stramanned you. Instead you stramanned me. Again. {smilie}  Please read more carefully. Or ask for clarification.
[/quote]
No, dear camrade, you twisted my argument, added "primitive" part, which was never a part of that argument, and then - debunked that added, by you, part, and said that you debunked the argument.
This is a prime example of "strawman" fallacy.

I can prove that with my post, again.
[quote]As always, you are just deliberately ignore codex.
Read parts about space combat, and stop saying nonsense. Without fleets your "agressive alien race" is just a target practice for any sane admiral or political leader.
Krogans are no threat to the humanity, they have no fleets, and subjugated by the council, and condemned for confinement on their planet.
On the other hand, we have direct threat of the reapers, who would obliterate everyone, humanity included, and are not negotiable.
And we have potential threat of the council races, which fleets have potential to easily crush entire Systems Alliance.

If TIM wasn't insane mumbling idiot in ME3, as is Systems Alliance leadership - they could use krogans as a leverage for the council, by indirectly helping them(krogans) through Cerberus. This is dangerous political play, but it is to ensure human dominance and survival, so it is worth to try.
So, for TIM it would be wise to actually help krogans, and it perfectly fits his views. Well, his views before he went
full retard in ME3.
And Systems Alliance can easily disavow Cerberus actions, as "those insane terrorists who tries to undermine our effort to build a better and peaciful future for everyone".[/quote]
There is no word "primitive" in an entire post, and especially in bolded part, which you "quoted", actually twisted, to "prove" your "point".

Stop that demagogy, already. {smilie}
[quote]
And there is

    Maxster_ wrote...you haven't even bothered to give actual proof, from codex. Because there isn't.

You accuse me of not providing proof in response to my claim that the game doesn’t provide any information at all? How astute of you. /sarcasm
[/quote]
are you f..ing mocking me?
[quote]
[quote]At any rate, the series lore is pretty clear that the Krogans were quite outmatched during the rebellions in the spaceship department, and were still winning. It doesn’t go into detail, it just says that that was the way it was. If you think that’s stupid, then take it up with ME1.[/quote]

That's just pathetic.
You have just made up "argument" to "prove" your "point".
And of course, you haven't even bothered to give actual proof, from codex. Because there isn't.
[/quote]
That it exact full quote from my post.
You deliberately took that out of context, to make up another false statement.
Where in that quote, "game doesn't provide any information at all"? There isn't.

You know, if you take all words and letters from my posts, and then you'll make up some bull**** from those words, and say that it was my post - that will not be an argument.

You made up false statement, about krogans being outmatched during the rebellions in a context of spaceships.
And then i answered, that there is no proof of your statement in codex.
And now you are pretending, that there was no statement.
What the point in talking to you? You just make up false statement, and then accuse opponent on a base of quotes taken completely out of context. You can just write anything and pretend that i written it.

Stop that demagogy, already.
[quote]

    Maxster_ wrote...They need only to ensure that genophage will not be cured.

One last time; wrong. They want that and they want the Krogan to join them. If they openly try to stop the cure then not only will the Krogans not help them but the humans and the Turians, who want krogan help also and would blame the Salarians for losing it, probably won’t either.
[/quote]
1. That could be shown as a failed attempt in a narrative. To failed at succeeding, or failed at hiding involvement. Which could lead to another story twist.
2. That could be debunked by the salarians.
[quote]
And you yourself argued that Cerberus shouldn’t care about the Krogan all that much because the Reapers are the bigger threat. Why are the Salarians any different?
[/quote]
Because salarians reaction is irrational. They hate krogans, as a broken tool, and a remind of their mistake. And don't even think that they considering uplifting krogans was a mistake - more likely, they considering that their provocation that started krogan rebellions was too late, and should be made a centruty earlier. And calling that a mistake.

[quote]Shepard is a convenient proxy who can carry out Salarian will without the salarians having to lift a finger or incriminate themselves.
[/quote]
Of course. But if he will not, and expose that plan to a krogans?
[quote]
And then there’s the question of whether or not an STG force could kill Wrex, Shepard, Shepards squad, the turian and Krogan troops all while fighting off/evading Reaper forces.
[/quote]
1. there is no reason for reapers to be there.
2. They need only to kill Mordin and Eve, and present that as an accident, or rival krogans clan actions.
3. Or at least sabotage Shroud, to ensure no distribution of the cure. And they can be caught on doing that in a narrative.
[quote]And also a large portion of the Salarian military (like Kirrahe) think the Dalatrass’ idea is bull and probably wouldn’t go along with it, or leak it to the Krogans if it were ordered.
[/quote]
Of course. That could be a whole different story, completely unrelated to a Derperus. If nowadays EAWare were capable of good writing.
[quote]

    Maxster_ wrote... counter my example of someone's opinions, presenting said opinion as main.

. You said that that opinion meant that my position “was void.” I took efforts to counter that.  At any rate, I think the most important thing you yourself claimed back there was “This, of course, makes absolutely no sense, without defining what is "story's core meaning and point" .For example, reapers arrival in full strength, completely nullifies ME overarching plot, changing it core meaning("reapers deliberately allowed events of ME1 to happen", instead of "protheans acts helped us to stop the reapers") and point.” Sorry, but no, that’s not the core meaning and point, as I had tried to explain to you earlier. But again, you failed to understand, and your arguments reflect this.
[/quote]
I understood your point perfectly. Discussion about "story's core meaning and point" is pointless without defining those core meaning and points.
You produced an meaningless "argument" to pretend that nullfication of ME overarching story is not changing "story's core meaning and point" without defining said core meaning and point. As a means to differentiate one kind of garbage writing(entire ME3) from another(ending) to present one as "tolerable" and other as "intolerable".
Which is of course pure nonsense.
And then started to reinforce that nonsense through your numerous posts.
[quote]
[quote]Maxster_ wrote...What you said is a full retcon of Crucible's presentation and rewriting of all its
story. [/quote] The Crucible’s story, but not the story structure at large. That was what I was talking about, and that’s what I thought you meant when you said fixing it would require “rewriting entire story.”
[/quote]
Please.
No Mars nonsense. No Thessia's "reveal".
No derp like "we are building a device which we have no idea how it works and what it does, in a hope that it will win reapers war. Because we are all idiots".
To get rid of that idiocy, you need to completely rework ME3 and rewrite it.
[quote]

    Maxster_ wrote... Protheans did not had full knowledge of relay technology…etc

Most of your points apply to the conduit too. The only exception is the idea of interfacing with the Citadel relay in particular. But the crucible would easily be rewritten so it doesn’t need the relays. It could just be a bomb designed to hurt reapers(based on data from previous cycles) and they just lure most of the reapers into a showdown at earth and then try to set it off there. Or something similar. It would still be a plot contrivance, sure. But not nonsensical.
[/quote]
You need to rewrite ME3 for that.
And that will affect entire story structure - because then it will be even less reasons to bring Citadel to Earth(and in current ME3, there is no single reason for that).
And there is nothing to lure most of the reapers to that showdown at all.
And you will need to rewrite story, for that to make at least some sense.
[quote]

    Maxster_ wrote... But that, of course, doesn't meant that there is no more alternatives than you presented.

Your own argument against the reapers being able to fly in from Darkspace was if that were possible, then
“there is absolutely no reason for Sovereign to act”(your words). Now you’ve just admitted that your own idea does the same. So your idea is no improvement by your own standards.
[/quote]
Of course. I'm not a writer. And i never wanted to write entire story for a ME3, myself, to it make sense, and fully fit lore, and with a lot of details. Especially in a discussion about other things.
[quote]
    As for the reapers being weakened by opening the relay from their side, they are/could be similarly weakened by having to expend energy driving for three years and then facing a galaxy that’s semi- ready for them (which is far more ready then usual) and still has control over the mass relays. They could have just added a few lines about that to show that the reapers are weaker then they usually are.
[/quote]

That won't work, unless reapers can be defeated conventionally, or lost most of their fleet because of that weakness.

What you did - you just made them even more powerful, because they easily crushed entire galaxy with a minor losses even in weakened state.
And of course, due to them being idiots and spreading their forces to attack everyone at once, and not taking Citadel to shut down mass relays.
That means that they lost completely nothing, and there is absolutely no reason for them to sit in dark space for a thousands of years.
So yes, to make that sensical - you need to rewrite entire story of ME3.

[/quote]
Jeez. Don't you quit? You are at this point completely ignoring him. It doesn't need anywhere near a complete rewrite. That's just your damn butthurt with BioWare talking.

[moater boat]

While the ending was horrible, the rest of ME3 was fairly mediocre, and absolutely failed as a role playing game.

[The Interloper]

 

silverexile17s wrote...If not for the Conduit, any attack Saren launched would be unable to reach the Council Chambers before the station sealed Sovergein out

I'm not really so sure of that. Could not confusion and misdirection serve as viable replacements for sheer force? And there's still the matter of why it has to be Saren who hunts the conduit. Or the fact that without hunting for the conduit, nobody would have access to Vigil's oh-so-handy files.

Armass81 wrote...Im glad they didnt use the dark energy as an ending, as it was proposed to be, it was just stupid.

I agree that the specific elements that were proposed (like the Reapers being eco-terrorists who encourage people to use the technology they are trying to stop) were dumb. But the core elements---namely, that the human reaper was important to the Reapers, and not a curiosity---fit the story much better. The human reaper would have actually had a point, the reapers would actually be trying to stop a threat that actually exists, Earth would have an actual reason for being important, the ending would have involved a technological process that we've actually seen before. The very title of the series would have taken on new significance. The game would have been much better off if they had opted for something that at least shared the DE endings elements in broad strokes.

Maxster_ wrote...snip

 You've just ignored almost everything I said, again. I'd point out where, again. But that would take forever and when I finally finished I know you'd just ignore me. Again. Characterize my withdrawal as you please, but I won't waste any more of my time.

Modifié par The Interloper, 19 février 2013 - 05:59 .

[silverexile17s]

The Interloper wrote...

 

silverexile17s wrote...If not for the Conduit, any attack Saren launched would be unable to reach the Council Chambers before the station sealed Sovergein out

I'm not really so sure of that. Could not confusion and misdirection serve as viable replacements for sheer force? And there's still the matter of why it has to be Saren who hunts the conduit. Or the fact that without hunting for the conduit, nobody would have access to Vigil's oh-so-handy files.

No. Not when the entire Citadel fleet, and the respective militaries of the united governments are one call away. The only reason Cerberus didn't have to worry about that was because the governments were busy fighting the Reapers to send aid anywhere near as fast as before, and because Cerberus had a Councilor working with them voulntarily. If Saren had tried that as he was, he would have been swarmed by soldiers and C-sec, and the collective military forces of the Council races would have poured down on top of him before he EVER got anywhere near the Council Chambers.
The Conduit gives him access to the Citadel control station, the Relay Network, and C-Sec HQ all at once, within minutes of doing so. That beats slogging through the station and potentally failing. The Concuit was almost assured to suceed. Whereas your plan would have involved many, many, MANY more risks in it.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 25 février 2013 - 06:34 .

[Maxster_]

The Interloper wrote...

Maxster_ wrote...snip

 You've just ignored almost everything I said, again. I'd point out where, again. But that would take forever and when I finally finished I know you'd just ignore me. Again. Characterize my withdrawal as you please, but I won't waste any more of my time.

No more demagogy, i presume?
And by ignoring everything you said - you meant you ignored everything i said, and just continue posting your nonsense?
Anyway, it seems you dropped your quest for presenting ME1 as badly written nonsense, despite the evidence and lore. Especially funny was  when you outright ignored existence of the Citadel Fleet - that was fun.
As for your attempts at politics - that was really pathetic.

Begone.

[silverexile17s]

Maxster_ wrote...

The Interloper wrote...

Maxster_ wrote...snip

 You've just ignored almost everything I said, again. I'd point out where, again. But that would take forever and when I finally finished I know you'd just ignore me. Again. Characterize my withdrawal as you please, but I won't waste any more of my time.

No more demagogy, i presume?
And by ignoring everything you said - you meant you ignored everything i said, and just continue posting your nonsense?
Anyway, it seems you dropped your quest for presenting ME1 as badly written nonsense, despite the evidence and lore. Especially funny was  when you outright ignored existence of the Citadel Fleet - that was fun.
As for your attempts at politics - that was really pathetic.

Begone.

You are really a petty, butthurt troll, aren't you?

You ignored everything both he and I put againt you. The fact that YOU were unable to properly refute ANYTHING without asspulls is proof of this. It's pathetic of you to accuse him of YOUR crimes.

ME1 DOES have nonsense. The very concept of the Reapers can be called PURE AND UTTER NONSENSE. Giant living killer spaceships made from liquid DNA can hardly be classed as otherwise in logical reasoning. As can the thorian, the prothean beacon, husks, and Mass Effect fields in general, from flight to biotics, are ALL nonsense in real life.

Also, just on that note of the Citadel fleet, it usally DOESN'T exist, until the Council gives the order for the scattered fleets spread across the galaxy to unite. The Citadel fleet is, unless in times of war, nothing but a token garrison, discounting the Destiny Ascention. It's the surrounding reinforcements from the nearby Council systems that Saren was worried about, hense why getting the Relay network lokced down by a blindside attack through the Conduit was nessessary - so that the other races couldn't come in. But the large fleet you see in ME1? Not ususally that strong on avargae. Usually, it's just the Ascention and about less then a dozen or so cruisers. Since Sovergien and the geth blew twenty turian ships and between six  to fourteen  Alliance ships apart.... well, do the math.

YOU are the one that needs, SO BADLY, to "begone.":wizard:. You are generally insulting and petty to everyone you debate with, either using headcannon, asspulls, or outright insults, or simply ignoring them completely when you cannot refute for your BS. HE is not the one that needs to leave.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 25 février 2013 - 06:32 .

[KingZayd]

silverexile17s wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

2) Yes, he does break the lore. How were the Protheans able to sneak onto the Citadel, and hack into the Starchild and sabotage him
a) without him noticing?
and without having any foreknowledge of the Starchild.

3) I'm not smoking anything. I'm fully aware that a lot of people liked the EC.
a) it fixed the unexplained "teleporting squadmates" problem by adding nonsense. Not an improvement.
It made the Starchild make even less sense
c) Epilogues aren't important when the story remains in tatters
d) Saw the Normandy survive pre-EC. That said unimportant.
e) Fixed nothing important, while adding extra nonsense.

4) Only one of them looked seriously injured. And even then, there were others on the battlefield in worse condition who got no medevac. Secondly the priority should be getting to the Citadel. The lives of everyone in the galaxy depend on it. Those squadmates will die anyway if the Reapers aren't stopped.
As for your excuse for Harbinger: ridiculous. Blowing up the Normandy would not only destroy the ship but kill Shepard and anyone else too close to the explosion.

5) The husks themselves are not 50,000 years old. They are clones. They are not "growing" Reapers, but manufacturing them and storing the genetic matter within. It made sense within the context of the series, although not with real world science. I agree there were problems with the setting of ME2, but they still managed to make an excellent game from it without ruining the series.

As for those reviewers, they have their opinions, but they are their opinions and are in no way factual. They are not the opinion of "the average person" but of 2 average people.

6) The lore was broken by ME3, It's not at all headcanon. The Starchild destroys the lore. The Lazarus Project while being quite stupid, does not contradict the lore of the series, and also does not effect anything else significantly. All it does is have the galaxy waste 3 years without getting much more prepared against the Reapers, and have Shepad's crew spread across the galaxy again (due to his death). The Starchild on the other hand, ruins the Reapers and therefore due to their extensive history, basically the entire history of the Mass Effect Universe.

The outside signal does not trigger the Citadel Relay. It is sent to the Citadel, which then sends a signal to the Keepers (as they only respond to the Citadel) to then activate the Relay. If the Starchild was shackled, how did it create the Keepers and the Reapers in the first place? If it had the Keepers, why was it not able to unshackle itself? And I've covered the issues with the "Prothean sabotage" excuse already earlier in this post.

(2)...Did you NOT talk to Vigil? The protheans got onto the Citadel via the Conduit. He tells you this right up front.
And who says he didn't notice? You assume that he was unaware of it, when he may have simply been unable to stop it. And this all happened after the Reapers left for Dark Space again, so no back-up.
And they may have stumbled onto him. Or he was something discovered as they studied the signal over the decades of study they did on it after waking back up. We never DO learn what it was the protheans discovered that severed the Keepers from the signal.

(3) Not how you acted. And the Majority believed it was better then the original
(a) WHAT about the Normandy arriving is implausible? And is it any more so then hot-dropping the Mako into such a small area on Ilos? Or fighting the Human-Reaper on FOOT? It can be chalked up as a veriaty of things, from dumb luck to concidence to pilot skill. It's NOT implausible, so therefore, NOT GARBAGE OR NONSENSE. Not EVERYTHING has to be absolutly perfect in a game. Just LOOK at the Lazarus Project.
It least the Normandy's sudden arrival CAN be explained away, in many ways no less, compaired to the teleporting squadmates, which DOESN'T have a reasonable explination. A VAST improvement compaired to before, and ANYONE that examines it will tell you the same.
( The hell are you talking about? He had a reason now. Something that we could at least relate to. It's not that different then that V.I.K.I  computer in the "I,Robot" movie. Save life by taking over it's management. It's not original. It's not mindboggling. But it's something we've SEEN before, and makes more sense then BEFORE.
Nothing YOU'RE saying is making any sense. Everything your fussing about are things that EVERYONE consideres IMPROVED from the original. These are all things that are FIXED. And also, just saying "it's not good" then failing to point out spicific examples of it being not good, is just an asspull. Find a real point that supports your claim.
© The damn story ISN'T IN TATTERS till Priority: Earth. Even then, there isn't anything contridictory. Just a major lack of content. Lack of content doesn't equal broken lore. It's just an unanswered question. And the slides FIX most of the problems regarding the abrubt ending, by showing the fate of everyone else. It's not perfect, but I'd HARDLY call it "in tatters."
(d)Stranded and with no indication of whether or not they get off that world or not. Guess what happens to the crew doesn't matter to you, but the same can't be said for the rest of the BSN.
Now we can see their reactions to Shepard's death, and them actually leaving, with the Normandy surviving in working order if EMS is high. In the old one, the ship was fired to hell with little chance of it getting fixed.
(e) Teleporting squadmates: FIXED with plausible explination
No idea of what happens to the crew: FIXED with memorial scene and Normandy leaving
No idea of what happens to the races and galaxy: FIXED with slides showing them repairing
Catalyst haveing more believeable reasons: FIXED with a plot that while unoriginal, is still believable for a computer to think is right.
Endings have no variation: FIXED with slides that show the galaxy HAS changed based on the choice.

WHAT PART FAILED? You are the one that has failed to post anything that directly proves your point. You are just using asspulls, when any real fan of the game would tell you that the EC is a major improvement over what was there before.

(4)Don't you think Shepard would be tired of losing people. The Commander already has nightmares about everyone he failed to save: Mordin, Legion, Thane, the Virmire casualty. All these voices whisper in his/her dreams. It's human nature to not want to lose anyone else. Something the character template lacked before. These are Shepard's family, and no one would leave them behind if given the choice. If it was made a branch choice, I doubt ANYONE would elect to leave them.
Shepard's been in situations like that before. Look at all the people that died because you broke Jack out?
Look at Virmire. If what you said was true, Shepard wouldn't even bother trying to get to the AA tower to help the other squad-mate. They'd stay with bomb and that's that. Shepard has a bond with the Crew, and would naturally save them first over a faceless stranger. After all, if you had a choice between someone that close to you, and several namless strangers around you, who would you save?
And again, Harbinger is arrogant. It's a cliche'. You SEE this behaveior all the time: The villian considers himself as the winner prematurally, so he sees no need to dispose of the followers, since without their leader, it's just an amusing struggle. He probably  found it amusing that Shepard would save them when Harbinger thought that he'd already won. So he toys with them. He lets them go, thinking he'll have all the time in the universe to hunt them down at his convience.

(5) LOOK at the Human Reaper. It's made with injections of liquid DNA. They aren't BUILT. They're GROWN.
Prothean husks? Liquid DNA-grown Reapers? Shepard reveived from death? The main plot was a giant side-mission, and was completely detached from the main series.
And LOOK at how heavily the likes outweigh the dislikes on their respictive videos. I'd say that makes you dead wrong, AND in the minority.
And from the opinions on THIS PAGE ALONE, the EC is considered better then the original.

(6) Again, you are throwing out this and that with NO corroberating evidence. Just saying something without any proof doesn't make it true.
WHAT is your proof of the Crucible breaking the lore? Vigil? DOESN'T COUNT. He was programed AFTER Ilos went dark (he says he was spicifically programed to monitor the stasis pods), so NO INFORMAION ABOUT THE CRUCIBLE OR WAR. And any pre-programed information is long gone due to corruption in the memory banks.
WHAT is your proof of the Catalyst breaking the lore? ME1? DOESN'T DO SQUAT. The prothean sabotage could have rendered it inactive. Or, it's a shackled system that can't interact with any of the Citadel systems without outside interaction, explaining the signal sent out by the vanguards.
The Reapers are trying to preserve all life by a form of "transhuminasim": changing the physical body to the point that it no longer resembles the original orginisim from the exterior, and controled by the intelligence of a machine. It's harvest actually makes a grim sense. It didn't want the extinctions of the Leviathan Age's races repeating, so it harvests and preserves them before they can ever hit that point again. So NO, It DOESN'T kill the universe.

And how do you know that the Keepers weren't there from the beginning? Perhaps the signal goes through the Citadel to the Keepers directly, and therefore, the Catalyst is basically shackled and completely isolated after all. Unable to affect the Citadel systems. Perhaps the Keepers are automatic caretakers, like cells in a body, working autonomous.
And I countered your claims above in 3^

2) Yes, I did talk to Vigil. Vigil says nothing that excuses Starchild incompetence. Why should he be unable to do anything about it? The Citadel is his home. To not include any defences would be moronic.

3) Just means a lot of people are wrong, or don't care as much about the plotholes.
a)  the stuff  mentioned in 4, as well as the fact that if the Normandy is doing anything significant in that battle he should not be able to make it there so quickly without any trouble.  And yes, it's far worse.  The entire new scene is ridiculous. The Lazarus project wasn't intended to fix the game, and it doesn't break it (as stupid as it is)
He already had a reason. Just now he has stupid lines like  "When fire burns, is it at war?". VIKI made sense. Starchild was an "asspull". He wouldn't have been so bad if he wasn't located at the Citadel, yet had done NOTHING. Still would be pretty bad though.
c) It doesn't matter at what point the story is ruined. The story is still ruined. Abrupt isn't a problem.  It's just abrupt and terrible.
d) It wasn't massively important. The future of a broken universe is uninteresting for one thing. Secondly, that scene isn't "Fixed", it's rendered meaningless.  What purpose does that planet have now? All they did is change the story to appease people who were upset by the likelihood of characters dying if they weren't rescued (what happened to artistic integrity?)

e) Teleporting squadmates, was never a serious problem. It was already known that Coates had called a retreat. Just now instead of your friends abandoning the most important mission, perhaps due to orders from Coates, Shepard moronically orders them to desert. Not fixed at all. made worse.

No idea what happens to crew: What happens to Garrus then? or Tali? All I see is that they are alive. Not really a good fix.

Starchild is less believable due to poor quality of his new lines- not fixed, made worse.
The endings didn't show anything that wasn't already obvious for a literal interpretation,except for locking what Shepard would do if he chose to control the Reapers - Not fixed. And made worse for control playthroughs.

And you have shown your stupidity by playing the "true fan" card. If I wasn't a fan of the earlier games, I wouldn't be wasting my time on these boards posting these responses.

4) It's not several nameless strangers or a dear one in this case. It's all the nameless strangers + all the friends, vs 2 friends. The correct choice is obvious. Spacer Shepard is endangering his family (his mother), and everyone he cares about by making such a stupid decision. I would choose to leave them, because not doing so would be stupid.

As already stated, by taking out the ship, the "leader" would also have been killed. And if he really wanted to mess with them, blowing up the Normandy after it took off would hurt Shepard the most.  But that said, you can't use arrogance to defend every bit of stupidity that a character makes. If he's not firing on the ship that is potentially bringing more soldiers, there's not much point in firing at all those men.

5) I see a whole lot of metal, with organic material being put inside. It's still being constructed not grown. The main plot of ME2 was a side mission (and thanks to the character writing, and excellent one) but it didn't result in the ruining of the series. That was all ME3.

6)Why does the Starchild (of whom the Citadel is part of) need a reaper that it controls to stay behind and tell  it when the Harvest is ready [the organic races are on the Citadel (part of the Starchild)], so that it can send a signal to the Keepers so that they can open the Citadel relay (part of the Starchild)?

How do the Protheans sneak onto the Citadel (part of the Catalyst) and change it without alerting the Starchild?

When the Citadel receives Sovereign's signal, and the keepers aren't activated, why doesn't it let Sovereign know what's going on?
Why does Sovereign have to spend all that time figuring out by himself, and eventually using Saren to discover the truth?

Why does the Citadel (part of the catalyst) have a master control console that organics can use?

Why hasn't the Catalyst made the other reapers it controls who can enter the Milky Way using FTL drives, do so in all that time?

Why did the Starchild let us up in the first place? Shepard had failed. The Reapers had already won.

"Perhaps the signal goes through the Citadel to the Keepers directly"
Sounds like you're the one who hasn't talked to Vigil. Vigil tells us explicitly that the Keepers don't respond to the Reapers.

2). He likely never thought that anyone would ever reach him.
And what the HELL could Vigil ever know about the thing? He was isolated from the information network long before even being programed. He'd know nothing about even the Crucible, let alone an A.I. that no one ever found out about.
Are you SURE you talked to Vigil? Because NOTHING he says could be linked in any way to ANYTHING pertaining to the Catalyst. Your linking up two unrelated subjects.

3) No refute:wizard:
Seriously, you could at least try to make an arguement. Just saying "your wrong" but having no proof of it? That's sad. If that mentality was true, an EC would never have been made. BioWare would have just told us "deal with it" and ignored us.
(a) You really don't get that there are dozens of ways to rationalize/explain away the Normandy being there so fast?
Look around. Your in the minority, sir. NO ONE argees with you on the teleporting sceen being better.  A ship being conviently in range is much more believeable and plausible then teleporting squadmates. At least there are believable explinations for THAT.
( Your arguements are the asspull at this point. There is NO DIFFERENCE in their actual beliefs. The scale is larger, and they phrase it differently, but they are the SAME. They do things because they don't believe in lasting peace. The Catalyst isn't an asspull. His existance DOESN'T violate any lore.
©The entire story can't just be ignored because of a bad ending. That's just being butthurt.
(d)You are kidding right? HALF the COMPLAINTS were bcause the fate of the universe was left hanging like that. Start a poll if you want.
(e)You must have been smoking something. Teleporting squadmates was one of the top five compaints. That's WHY it was adressed in the EC. If it hadn't been fussed over by the majority of fans, they would have left it be.
Again, you are in the minority.
And you see that the Normandy isn't just stranded any longer, so you have more hope for them.
There is more exposition, and his lines DO make more sense, because he feels more like a computer that just doesn't get the ethics of this. Like the V.I.K.I. from "I, Robot." It's MUCH more understandible.

And you certinly don't ACT like one, as the wide majority of fans believe that the EC is a complete marked improvement over what was given. I doubt you were arguing AGAINST it when the prospect came out, so don't complain now. We got it. It's better then what we had. Not perfect, but certinly better.

4) Again, it's human nature. A reaction movment to save the people close to you. There isn't TIME to think about that "greater purpose" garbage. It's NEVER obvious when the person is dying right in front of you, and rescue for them is a button-press away.
Look at the Suicide Mission. Shepard has the choice of sending a teammate back with the Crew, weakening the nember of squadmants holding the line just for the sake of the ships crew. That right there means that personal friends are as much a priority as the greater purpose.
He can throw away hundreds of humans for three Council mambers.
He's been more then willing to make sacrifices for a few. And this even more so. The first reaction you have to seeing a close friend or lover get injured like that is to try and save them - hell with the mission. It's an instinctual, reflexive movement for anyone.
Leaving them is heartless. Obviosuly, you can't be human if you place that little value on comradery and human responces.

And as stated before, At this point Harbinger thinks he's already won, so there's no harm in toying with the humans. Why else do you think he just leasurlly exterminates the humans, instead of just glassing the entire surrounding area? He's toying with his prey - with Shepard, showing that no matter who he saves, he will lose.

5) EDI says that this is flat-out wrong. The mteal aloys are made from genetic material. That gray liquid (DNA) is solidified into the metal alloys of the Reaper body. They are GROWN.
ME2 was poorly handled as a middleman in the series. It spent too mcuh time being self contained. If anything, ME2 was the death blow. It was too centered on it's own plot, with little tieing it to the plot of either of the other games. In my opinion, the overly isolated story was the downfall of ME, as the Crucibel and other elements should have been in that, and NOT so focused on the Collectors alone.
ME3 was just a symptom of ME2's failure to be a bridge by being totally isolated from the story.

6) Why is the signal so manditory then? Why else must a signal be sent out every harvest?
It seems the Catalyst may be a totally ioslated system within the Citadel. Like EDI when shackled, it was it's home, but not it's domain. Possibly to decrease the risk of someone finding a system that could be traced back to it.

AGAIN, the Conduit. VIGIL told you this in ME1? Remember?

Again, perhaps it did, and we didn't know. Or perhaps the blocking of the Keeper signal rendered it severed from the others.

Even MORE credidance that the Catalyst is an isolated system in the Citadel.

Three years is a long time, and they lose the element of surprise this way, and lose the oppertunity to quickly take the Citadel and the relay network.

It was courious. Shepard broke it's predictions and altered the variables it always used. It had the chance to speak directly. So why not?

The Reapers transmitt to the Citadel which transmitts to the Keepers. Ergo, exactally what I said.
Again, YOU are the one likely not talking to Vigil.

2) I never even mentioned Vigil in that section. The Protheans had no foreknowledge of the Starchild's existence. How is the Starchild so incompetent that it failed to detect not only their entry, but their intrusion into Citadel systems (which are a part of him), and allow himself to be disabled by people who didn't even know he was there?

3) You never provided a logical argument. All you said was "a bunch of people agree with me. therefore i'm right". It was meaningless, so there was nothing to refute. Bioware changed it because it was unpopular. Not everything unpopular is wrong, and not everything that is changed is improved. Personally I wasn't keen on the idea of my squadmates running away either. I was less keen on Shepard ordering them to run away when a) the galaxy depends on this mission succeeding, and people who aren't lucky enough to be Shepard's friends are there getting killed right in front of them. No med -evac for those losers!
a) There was never a "teleporting  squadmate" scene. And the problem is not with the ship being in range.
My problem is not with their beliefs. So your arguments are still the asspull i'm afraid.  My main problem is with the combination of the Starchild's strategic location and his refusal to do anything throughout the timeline of the series until the crucible gets plugged in.
c) The ending is an important part of the story. The ending ruined  the Reapers, and since the Reapers are a pretty important part of the story, that ruins it too. Excrement probably ruins a cake, no matter what else was good before you got to that layer.
d) I'm aware that a lot of people didn't like not being told the consequences of their end decision? So what? For everyone that hated that, there were just as many that liked the ambiguity.
e) Show me the official statistics and then you can call me one of the minority (even then, that wouldn't mean I'm wrong). Most people who played the game didn't complain or defend the game. It was not fussed over by the majority of fans at all. It was certainly complained about, and Bioware did try to fix it, but they only ruined another good scene. Plenty of people complained about that bit of stupidity too. About as many, if not more than praised it on these forums anyway.


Well certainly it's going to be the vast majority if you don't count the people who hated the EC as fans. It looks like the word you should be using is "sheep", as constantly you seem to imply that if one does not agree with you or a bunch of other people, then they are automatically wrong.

I was also not complaining about the prospect of Mass Effect 3 coming out before it did. That means I can't complain about it if I don't like it? I didn't really have high hopes for the EC. I just figured it'd be nearly impossible to accidentally make the ending worse. Turns out Bioware managed to do it.  They made the ending more stupid.

4. I guess Shepard hasn't been human the rest of the series then. Throwing away a bunch of humans, is different to risking everyone in the galaxy. Well then Shepard is heartless as he leaves all the non-VIP ordinary soldiers to die.

If he was toying with Shepard, showing that he'd lose whoever he tried to save, the Normandy would have been blown up.

5. Can you give me an exact quote? Because I believe you're mistaken.
ME2 was really good. ME3 would have been great too if it didn't ruin the Reapers at the end of the game.

6. "The Citadel is a part of me". Not "I am part of the Citadel". Try again.

"And how do you know that the Keepers weren't there from the beginning? Perhaps the signal goes through the Citadel to the Keepers directly,"

Is exactly what you said. If the Reaper signal went directly to the Keepers, the Citadel woudn't have to send a signal to them, once it received one from the Reapers
.

The delay in response is because I had better things to do.

[silverexile17s]

Maxster_ wrote...

humes spork wrote...

Maxster_ wrote...

Therefore, Crucible is still a nonsense and can not exist.

I would very strongly urge you to go back and rewatch the Vendetta conversation again, if "the Protheans didn't design the Crucible, therefore it's a plot hole" is a lynchpin of your argument.

You completely missed the point, as always.
Point was about crucible can not be retconned into something that makes sense, in any way, other than full rewrite of entire ME3(crucible concept is a huge part of ME3, and it makes no sense, and can not be retconned into something sensical without rewriting ME3).
Part about fact, that protheans could not design crucible - is a minor part of my point, a counter to an example.

Actually, it's that you LACK a point, as always.
There was NOTHING stated by Vigil that retcons the Crucible in any way. The Crucible is no bigger a suspension of disbelief then the Lazarus Project. Or the Reapers themselves.
Nothing Vigil said retcons it because Vigil was (a) programmed after Ilos was isolated from the Prothean Empire, ( was comm silent till after the war ended, and © was corrupted to th epoint of nonfunctionality just shortly after ME1. As Vigil was completely isolated, there is no phesible way it could have known about the
Crucible.
Also, your "Crucible built to use tha Catalyst" argument is complete Bull, as the Crucible was designed to interface with the Dark Energy emitted from the Citadel. It was built WITHOUT any knowladge of the A.I.'s existance. Likely, the Catalyst was what the Citadel was called by one cycle (Vendetta says "your cycle referrs to it as the Citadel", which implies that it wasn't called the Citadel by all the other cycles), or that they found a refrence to a "Catalyst", and assumed that was the name of the station itself.
So NO. YOU are the one that's wrong.

And again, could you refute the point without your vauge asspulls? Honestly, put up some damned proof or stop trying to nit-pick everything.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 07 mars 2013 - 07:29 .