514 réponses à ce sujet

[ME859]

The main objective of ME3 in terms of the trilogy was wrapping things up and providing closure. Yes there were other parts that were vital and a lot of plot points were well done, most notably Ranoch and Tuchanka, but in this game more then any other the ending was key. A weak ending, though not preferable, would have been forgivable in the first two installments.

If ME3 were a project for a college course the ending alone would have counted somewhere between 30 and 40 percent of the grade and the other 60-70% would have been creating stories and plot points that help set the stage for Priority Earth.

[RiptideX1090]

Maxster_ wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Even Tuchanka is loaded with continuity issues and a derpy premise(lol @ground troops to fight space mecha cthulhu dreadnoughts).

And Derperus for absolutely no reason.
But compared to all other crap, of which ME3 consists - it is very good part. Compared to ME1 - it is moderate of course, due to flaws you mentioned.

The first two games were also filled with many, MANY derpy moments. And people have pointed them out, but the thing is, no one really cares about those game's flaws (of which there are many) because in the end, it was still good story telling. You don't care about plotholes or inconsistencies or whatever when after it's all said and done, you had an amazing experience.

The reason people pick out and harp on ME3's flaws so much, I think, is because they were so devastated by the end sequence they can't let the small stuff slide anymore. Which is a shame.

[LaBaron2020]

The ending sucked but the game is still pretty good. I still like playing through the trilogy, there is a very bitter taste in my mouth after my initial experience with the ending, but I enjoy the universe so much that I was able to kinda get over it.

[RiptideX1090]

LaBaron2020 wrote...

The ending sucked but the game is still pretty good. I still like playing through the trilogy, there is a very bitter taste in my mouth after my initial experience with the ending, but I enjoy the universe so much that I was able to kinda get over it.

I've tried a half dozen times to replay the trilogy, but can't get past Eden Prime.

I just get a little ways in before the "what the hell is the point?" voice in the back of my head asks me why I am wasting my time.

It sucks.

[Maxster_]

RiptideX1090 wrote...

Maxster_ wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Even Tuchanka is loaded with continuity issues and a derpy premise(lol @ground troops to fight space mecha cthulhu dreadnoughts).

And Derperus for absolutely no reason.
But compared to all other crap, of which ME3 consists - it is very good part. Compared to ME1 - it is moderate of course, due to flaws you mentioned.

The first two games were also filled with many, MANY derpy moments. And people have pointed them out, but the thing is, no one really cares about those game's flaws (of which there are many) because in the end, it was still good story telling. You don't care about plotholes or inconsistencies or whatever when after it's all said and done, you had an amazing experience.

The reason people pick out and harp on ME3's flaws so much, I think, is because they were so devastated by the end sequence they can't let the small stuff slide anymore. Which is a shame.

There is a thing, called suspension of disbelief.
If there is too much crap, story makes absolutely no sense - it is broken.
Anyway, ME1 was one and only game of ME series, that was written good(not great, but good). ME2 main story was nonsense, and ME3 destroyed all that was good in ME1 and ME2, and nullified overarching plot of the series.
Your excuse for a garbage writing won't work.
Garbage writing started right in intro, followed by mars contrived nonsense.

[Vandarr1]

I think I was more irritated by the fact that the decisions I made didnt really matter in the end.The clone queen etc.

[TheRealJayDee]

devSin wrote...

I judge ME3 for many things, including the ending.

I dislike ME3 for many things, especially the ending.

+1

katamuro wrote...

Go play a game called Journey. That will prove it to you that its not just about the road but also about the destination.

Journey =

[AlienSpaceBats]

 wrong thread, ignore.

Modifié par AlienSpaceBats, 02 février 2013 - 02:35 .

[StarcloudSWG]

Auld Wulf wrote...

The ending of Mass Effect 3 proved it was an intelligent game, one written by a clever, progressive thinker, who clearly wanted the story to mean something. Not everyone's going to understand a story like that, but that says more about the reader than it does the story.

But he did it so poorly he was rightfully raked over the coals for it. The ending, narratively, does not fit the entire rest of the series. It would be as if, at the end of Star Wars, suddenly it switched to a university lecture hall and a professor lecturing on the physics of a gas giant.

Because Cloud City and the 'plight' of the Ughnaughts was somehow what all the films were about.

[KingZayd]

Awesome slide that leads you straight into a pile of excrement. If it's the journey that counts, then you know what you must do.

[Ryoten]

Modifié par Ryoten, 02 février 2013 - 02:51 .

[Jere85]

OP. Troll alert.

[silverexile17s]

Maxster_ wrote...

RiptideX1090 wrote...

Maxster_ wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Even Tuchanka is loaded with continuity issues and a derpy premise(lol @ground troops to fight space mecha cthulhu dreadnoughts).

And Derperus for absolutely no reason.
But compared to all other crap, of which ME3 consists - it is very good part. Compared to ME1 - it is moderate of course, due to flaws you mentioned.

The first two games were also filled with many, MANY derpy moments. And people have pointed them out, but the thing is, no one really cares about those game's flaws (of which there are many) because in the end, it was still good story telling. You don't care about plotholes or inconsistencies or whatever when after it's all said and done, you had an amazing experience.

The reason people pick out and harp on ME3's flaws so much, I think, is because they were so devastated by the end sequence they can't let the small stuff slide anymore. Which is a shame.

There is a thing, called suspension of disbelief.
If there is too much crap, story makes absolutely no sense - it is broken.
Anyway, ME1 was one and only game of ME series, that was written good(not great, but good). ME2 main story was nonsense, and ME3 destroyed all that was good in ME1 and ME2, and nullified overarching plot of the series.
Your excuse for a garbage writing won't work.
Garbage writing started right in intro, followed by mars contrived nonsense.

I think you reversed that. ME2 started the decent. And ME3 is FAR from garbage. Leave your bias out of this.

[silverexile17s]

Maxster_ wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

Mr.Antihero wrote...

 "People forget it's not the ending that matters, it's the journey that brought you to the end that counts. The Mass Effect trilogy is one of the best sagas of all time."

"The reason why Mass Effect was the best trilogy was because after playing Mass Effect 1 and 2 your heart was so attached to the game, but to have such an emotional ending with the best soundtracks every made the ending very dramatic. The series felt like it was ripped from your heart, to have nothing left to continue."

Well the Titanic and Hindenburg had great journies, but if you crash and burn in the end, it's still going to suck.

True.

Also, I found a lot of the rest of ME3 was crap, like the intro (holy crap that is cringe worthy) Rannoch, Thessia, the Cerberus Coup and Priority Earth was fairly lacklaster and craptastic.

So no, my beef isn't only with the ending. It's with a lot of the rest of the game.

Well, almost everything except Tuchanka.
How did you like fetch "quests" and reaper-chase minigame?

Expected in war. At least it makes you feel like nowhere is safe anymore.

[silverexile17s]

Yes, the ending is what most judge the game for. The ending to ME3 is the final ending of three games and their collective stories. When you screw it over, you screw the other two over as well.
The endings weren't properly executed. Or executed well at ALL, if you go off of the original cut.
The game seems to be a conglomeration of good ideas that were either half-baked (*cough*Mars) or not executed to the fullest. (*cough* Citadel, Rannoch) and at least one part that was screwed over entirely (*cough* Earth).
It's still a good game, (mostly the combat and the multiplayer do this. The story is good, but not great) but it doesn't match up to how the game began.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 02 février 2013 - 03:07 .

[FlamingBoy]

Its extraordinary how many plot points in me1 and me2 seem contrived and a waste of time as a result of that ending in particular sovereign place in the story arc

[The Interloper]

Maxster_ wrote...

RiptideX1090 wrote...

Maxster_ wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Even Tuchanka is loaded with continuity issues and a derpy premise(lol @ground troops to fight space mecha cthulhu dreadnoughts).

And Derperus for absolutely no reason.
But compared to all other crap, of which ME3 consists - it is very good part. Compared to ME1 - it is moderate of course, due to flaws you mentioned.

The first two games were also filled with many, MANY derpy moments. And people have pointed them out, but the thing is, no one really cares about those game's flaws (of which there are many) because in the end, it was still good story telling. You don't care about plotholes or inconsistencies or whatever when after it's all said and done, you had an amazing experience.

The reason people pick out and harp on ME3's flaws so much, I think, is because they were so devastated by the end sequence they can't let the small stuff slide anymore. Which is a shame.

There is a thing, called suspension of disbelief.
If there is too much crap, story makes absolutely no sense - it is broken.
Anyway, ME1 was one and only game of ME series, that was written good(not great, but good). ME2 main story was nonsense, and ME3 destroyed all that was good in ME1 and ME2, and nullified overarching plot of the series.
Your excuse for a garbage writing won't work.
Garbage writing started right in intro, followed by mars contrived nonsense.

ME1? You mean, the game where the bad guy's plan was to find a back door that he wouldn't have needed if he hadn't been looking for a backdoor in the first place? And I know that ME2's main plot gets a bad rap sometimes, but I think it's worth noting that it was clearly written with the Dark Energy ending in mind, and while DE had it's own issues, it did explain many of the weak points of ME2 (why the human reaper mattered, why the collectors were in such a hurry to build it, what the deal with Haestrom was, why the collector base decision was significant, and so on). That the ME3 ending hung that all out to dry is another strike against ME3, not ME2.

The difference between the other games and ME3 is that for the most part the direction in whch the plot moves was fine, even if the way in which it moves was sometimes wonky. For instance the resurrection raised a whole boatload of questions, but most of those could have been averted by just changing a few details (ie making Shepard comatose, not dead). The actual plot direction the resurrection facilitates--ie Shepard joining Cerberus and the story skipping two years ahead--is fine. 

And as for the Tuchanka mission, it brought together all of the relevant plotlines, characters, a choices throughout the series to a logical conclusion with multiple endings and appreciable ramnifications for the characters, the overall plot, and the universe at large. So did Rannoch, albiet to a less graceful extent. In short, it got everything it needed to right, and if the last act of ME3 had followed suit the game would have elevated the series to an exalted status, and deservedly so I think. Details like Cerberus's exact motives for being present, or the possible tactical advantage of an air assault, are, in this context and for this game, absoutely insignificant.

For the ending, not only are the specific details wrong, but so is the entire direction it retroactivly tries to send the plot, as well as its handling of player choice, as well as the pacing, as well as the use of character, as well as the core gameplay, and it was all in most important sequence of the series to boot! It was the dev's last (and, to their credit, best) opportunity to tell a cohesive and emotionally relevant sequence that factored in player choice. The demands of the ending are higher then on, say, the opening of ME2 or Tuchanka, and it fell short. It is that context that  sets the ending head and shoulders above all of the other flaws, and I think it's fair to judge the series on that scene; and by extension, I don't think it's entirely appropriate to condemn the series for far lesser crimes.

My two cents, anyway.

Modifié par The Interloper, 02 février 2013 - 04:08 .

[silverexile17s]

The Interloper wrote...

Maxster_ wrote...

RiptideX1090 wrote...

Maxster_ wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Even Tuchanka is loaded with continuity issues and a derpy premise(lol @ground troops to fight space mecha cthulhu dreadnoughts).

And Derperus for absolutely no reason.
But compared to all other crap, of which ME3 consists - it is very good part. Compared to ME1 - it is moderate of course, due to flaws you mentioned.

The first two games were also filled with many, MANY derpy moments. And people have pointed them out, but the thing is, no one really cares about those game's flaws (of which there are many) because in the end, it was still good story telling. You don't care about plotholes or inconsistencies or whatever when after it's all said and done, you had an amazing experience.

The reason people pick out and harp on ME3's flaws so much, I think, is because they were so devastated by the end sequence they can't let the small stuff slide anymore. Which is a shame.

There is a thing, called suspension of disbelief.
If there is too much crap, story makes absolutely no sense - it is broken.
Anyway, ME1 was one and only game of ME series, that was written good(not great, but good). ME2 main story was nonsense, and ME3 destroyed all that was good in ME1 and ME2, and nullified overarching plot of the series.
Your excuse for a garbage writing won't work.
Garbage writing started right in intro, followed by mars contrived nonsense.

ME1? You mean, the game where the bad guy's plan was to find a back door that he wouldn't have needed if he hadn't been looking for a backdoor in the first place? And I know that ME2's main plot gets a bad rap sometimes, but I think it's worth noting that it was clearly written with the Dark Energy ending in mind, and while DE had it's own issues, it did explain many of the weak points of ME2 (why the human reaper mattered, why the collectors were in such a hurry to build it, what the deal with Haestrom was, why the collector base decision was significant, and so on). That the ME3 ending hung that all out to dry is another strike against ME3, not ME2.

The difference between the other games and ME3 is that for the most part the direction in whch the plot moves was fine, even if the way in which it moves was sometimes wonky. For instance the resurrection raised a whole boatload of questions, but most of those could have been averted by just changing a few details (ie making Shepard comatose, not dead). The actual plot direction the resurrection facilitates--ie Shepard joining Cerberus and the story skipping two years ahead--is fine. 

And as for the Tuchanka mission, it brought together all of the relevant plotlines, characters, a choices throughout the series to a logical conclusion with multiple endings and appreciable ramnifications for the characters, the overall plot, and the universe at large. So did Rannoch, albiet to a less graceful extent. In short, it got everything it needed to right, and if the last act of ME3 had followed suit the game would have elevated the series to an exalted status, and deservedly so I think. Details like Cerberus's exact motives for being present, or the possible tactical advantage of an air assault, are, in this context and for this game, absoutely insignificant.

For the ending, not only are the specific details wrong, but so is the entire direction it retroactivly tries to send the plot, as well as its handling of player choice, as well as the pacing, as well as the use of character, as well as the core gameplay, and it was all in most important sequence of the series to boot! It was the dev's last (and, to their credit, best) opportunity to tell a cohesive and emotionally relevant sequence that factored in player choice. The demands of the ending are higher then on, say, the opening of ME2 or Tuchanka, and it fell short. It is that context that  sets the ending head and shoulders above all of the other flaws, and I think it's fair to judge the series on that scene; and by extension, I don't think it's entirely appropriate to condemn the series for far lesser crimes.

My two cents, anyway.

This. Thank you for that.

[Indy_S]

Would it be better if we judged the story just by its start? Because, like Smudboy said, that's not that much better. The people judging the game on the ending are actually judging it on the game's narrative which might be far more palatable for you to understand. One part of the holy trinity of game design (mechanics, narrative and art) is broken. Considering this is the forum devoted to that part, it makes sense that the complaints here are in regards to it.

[Shaleist]

RiptideX1090 wrote...
 (but hey, at least you know Jacob will be talking to some people in a building somewhere when it's all over, that's great).

Would have been better if he were wearing a captain's hat and riding a speedboat down in Rio to boot. 

Jacob is the Tubbs of the ME universe.



THIS reference reminds me of something....

ME1 felt like a combination of Star Trek and ... Miami Vice when I played it.  It was the whole, track down the bad guy in exotic locals vibe going on. You really do a lot of mystery solving.

Me2 felt like a combination of Star Trek and the Dirty Dozen.  Badass squad of lovable goons get together to beat up the bad guy.  Straight forward and fun.

What is ME3 combining?  I don't feel any Star Trek vibe ... It's more like Starship Troopers + some crappy Dutch Art film.. That's a bad combo.

[silverexile17s]

Indy_S wrote...

Would it be better if we judged the story just by its start? Because, like Smudboy said, that's not that much better. The people judging the game on the ending are actually judging it on the game's narrative which might be far more palatable for you to understand. One part of the holy trinity of game design (mechanics, narrative and art) is broken. Considering this is the forum devoted to that part, it makes sense that the complaints here are in regards to it.

Still, it's not horrible. Not like the hidous discription Maxster_ keeps insisting it is.
If you're asking "does it match up to the others?"

Well, no. And I agree with you that the Narrative was the fault. There were many good story elements, but they suffer from being poorly executed. Some also do have poor writing and timing, like the convienice and coincidence that fuels the Mars mission.
So then, here is what I think about the major levels.

Mars was a suspension of disbelief regarding the reason to go there. We JUST know learn that the plans are there, right as the Reapers hit Earth, where we happen to be?
We should have learned this in ME2. That way, it would already be at least partially established. You don't estlablish something so crutial so damn fast. It makes it feel akward and thrown in. Had the Crucible, or at the very least, the concept and hints to it's details, been introduced mid ME2, late ME2, or in a DLC, this problem wouldn't be here. We could have then said that we head there already knowing whats there, because we had a clear concept in ME2. THAT would have solved alot.
As is, it's plausible, but in a suspension of disbelief I haven't seen since the Lazarus Project.

Palaven best showed how the galaxy was fighting agains the Reapers, and how even the strongest were feeling the heat. It was an admittedly liniar level, but the atmosphere and desperation of not being able to do anything to halt the Reapers was captured perfectly. It's a great way to kick off the war for the galaxy.

Sur'Kesh exemplified the race against time that the war basically was, and the lengths some were willing to go in order to survive, and in Carberus' case, come out ahead. It to, was moderate in terms of story, but the excitement was there, and the Genophage arc it starts off is arguebly the best of the story arcs in the 3rd game.

Tuchanka was the best written. All the intersecting plot threads from the first two games come together here. No complaints there.

The Citadel Coup was an interesting idea, but I admit I wasn't found of it. It felt too much like a re-hash of the Endgame for ME1, where we chase the bad guy before he gets to the end first. If any segment was poorly written, it would be that, and the general character of Kai Leng
On that subject: I mear really? Compaired to his top-notch N7 turned assassin character in the ME books, the Cyber-ninja, Adam Jenson wanabee that he is in ME3 slandered his character. I could understand the leg implants, cause Anderson shot him in both during Retribution. But making him a full ninja? With the sword?? He was a firearms expert, so why not give him some damn firearms? If anything, Kai Leng was the biggest dissapointment in the game to me, personally.

Rannoch was good, but felt one-sided to make you sympathise with the geth, and synthetics in general, insetad of the hard moral debate we know and love. Other then that, done well enough to be on par.

I liked Thessia. It perfectly emphsised the state of panic and desperation that the galaxy faces, as all they built comes crumbling down. It also has heartstring-tugging moments as you see the poor asari try desperatly to fight off the Reapers. Liara has some development too, watching her people suffer and unable to stop it. The temple sceen was well done, especally if Javik is with you. I actually was surprised at the revelations behind the asari's rise to power.
Losing to Kai Leng was also a pivitoal moment, as it finally showed that even Shepard had limits and faults. That the Commander wasn't perfect. Although, if Leng's character had been done right, it would have been better.

Chronos Station was fun, and satisfying, as you took apart Cerberus, as well as learned that you were played right from the beginning. Although, it still feels.... off, somehow. Lacking in something. Not totally sure what though.

Earth is considered the failure, in that it feels extremely liniar for the final battle. A straight line. You say goodbye to everyone, then run to the end of the game. It was lackluster to be sure - it felt like that was the starting point, but was left uncoded in terms of content. Like someone forgot to add the actual level, and left a demo placeholder in. You sould have several areas - last missions, where you can hit several Reaper holdings and weaken the resistance around the Conduit, then decide on people (Fan-fave NPCs and old Squadmates) to lead spicific teams - like Kirrahe for one, Jack for another, Miranda for the supports, and so-on, with losses depending on if the leader was suited to the task, like the ME2 Suicide Mission. If they were suited, then they live through. Get three sucessful well-suited choices, and you can make it to the Conduit. If not - instant loss. THAT kind of thing would have been good.

The endings had good ideas, but weren't developed in unique branching ways like they should have been. They could have been alot better - amazing even, if done right.

But, above all else, why were they displayed in the exact same fasion as Deus Ex & Deus Ex: Human Revolution? Could they not figure out an original dilivery? The Catalyst shouldn't have had a kid form, it should have been incorporial - a disembodied voice, to embody that it was more like a force then a being.
It literally felt like I was reliving the scene with the Heilos A.I. in Deus Ex, or the talk with Eliza in Deus Ex: Human Revolution.
They could have displayed them differently, or had another presentation. Had the endings not been executed like a Deus Ex presentation, there would have been less complaints.
The thing that pissed me off was that I know that it could have been executed better. That it could have been great if these same ideas had been done right.

Anyway, these are my opinions.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 13 mars 2013 - 03:34 .

[AlanC9]

Shaleist wrote...

What is ME3 combining?  I don't feel any Star Trek vibe ... It's more like Starship Troopers + some crappy Dutch Art film.. That's a bad combo.

Wasn't Starship Toopers already a Dutch Art film? Paul Verhoeven directed, anyway.

[silverexile17s]

Shaleist wrote...

RiptideX1090 wrote...
 (but hey, at least you know Jacob will be talking to some people in a building somewhere when it's all over, that's great).

Would have been better if he were wearing a captain's hat and riding a speedboat down in Rio to boot. 

Jacob is the Tubbs of the ME universe.



THIS reference reminds me of something....

ME1 felt like a combination of Star Trek and ... Miami Vice when I played it.  It was the whole, track down the bad guy in exotic locals vibe going on. You really do a lot of mystery solving.

Me2 felt like a combination of Star Trek and the Dirty Dozen.  Badass squad of lovable goons get together to beat up the bad guy.  Straight forward and fun.

What is ME3 combining?  I don't feel any Star Trek vibe ... It's more like Starship Troopers + some crappy Dutch Art film.. That's a bad combo.

I think it's more like Starship Troopers "war for survival" vibe with the Lord of the Rings "race against time and impossible odds" vibe.
Regardless, the consensis is that it didn't mix as well as the last two did.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 02 février 2013 - 05:49 .

[AlanC9]

silverexile17s wrote...
Mars was a suspension of disbelief regarding the reason to go there. We JUST know learn that the plans are there, right as the Reapers hit Earth, where we happen to be?

"We" meaning Shepard and the player -- Hackett, Liara, and TIM already knew about the plans, to varying extents.

The real contrivance is that the plans are in Sol system so Shepard can be the one to make the pickup. Perhaps the archive should have been in some other system, with Normandy tasked to bring them in. 

[silverexile17s]

AlanC9 wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...
Mars was a suspension of disbelief regarding the reason to go there. We JUST know learn that the plans are there, right as the Reapers hit Earth, where we happen to be?

"We" meaning Shepard and the player -- Hackett, Liara, and TIM already knew about the plans, to varying extents.

The real contrivance is that the plans are in Sol system so Shepard can be the one to make the pickup. Perhaps the archive should have been in some other system, with Normandy tasked to bring them in. 

That would have been better pacing. It feels rushed to find the thing so damn quick.