[quote]RedBeardJim wrote...
[quote]silverexile17s wrote...
[quote]RedBeardJim wrote...
[quote]silverexile17s wrote...
1. You REALLY didn't play ME1, did you? An ARMY of geth poured through the Conduit, which, conviently, IS LESS THEN 20 OR SO METERS FROM THE ELEVATOR TO C-SEC HQ, AND RIGHT IN FRONT OF THE ELEVATOR TO THE CITADEL TOWER.
It's just not possible for you to have played ME1 if you get even THAT wrong. There WAS no reaction time, and the majority of C-Sec was dealing with the geth, and were unable to even get CLOSE to Saren.
AND THEY TRIED TO STOP SOVERGIEN. WHAT THE HELL DO YOU THINK THE SPACE BATTLE WAS FOR?!
You REALLY have no comprehension of even IN-GAME lore if you MISSED that.[/quote]
But why the Conduit? Why not just buy/steal/hijack/otherwise procure a freighter, stuff it to the brim with Geth, and dock it at whatever special, close-by docking facilities the most-trusted Spectre has access to? Boom, there's your huge ground force to distract C-Sec and get you access to the Council chamber, and you can still have Sovereign and the Geth armada come in through the relay, and more to the point you haven't warned anyone that anything is amiss before you kick things off.
[quote]2. EASILY? The Normandy was an advanced prototype - the most advanced ship in the galaxy that isn't Reaper-made. And IT gets hit several times, if you don't have the Thannix Cannon, whihc is a scaled down version of a Reaper Gun. So NO, it's NOT easy to kill for REAGULAR ships. Just ask the three turian frigates that got killed by the Collector Ship when you investigate it.
The moron, again, is the one that fails in lore comprehension.[/quote]
You mean the Thanix cannons that the Codex says are becoming standard equipment in council fleets (Not that we ever see that in-game, of course)? And oh no, it beat three frigates! The Normandy's a frigate, recall. Let's see how it manages against a fleet of a few dozen cruisers and a dreadnought or three.
[quote]6. Again, wrong, wrong, wrong.
(a). Sovergien's death stalled the Reapers for three years (CONFIRMED: ME wiki, Timeline article) and ruined their instant win. Overreaching plot IS the Reapers arrival. So the Reapers arriving NILIFIES the plot of the Reapers arriving? Even though as stated above, and on the Wiki, it clearly doesn't?[/quote]
So Sovereign's a chump. Three years? How long was he futzing around with his Saren/Geth plan? Why not just send out the "start hoofing it" signal, and the Reapers arrive and start the reaping before Shepard ever sets foot on the Normandy? Against a galaxy that has no idea they're coming?
Because clearly, as seen in ME3, they don't need to take the Citadel to overwhelm the galactic militaries, even when we *do* know they're coming. They don't need to take the Citadel at all. Until they do. Offscreen, while you're farting around on the Cerberus base.
(Random aside: I love how the Citadel Defense Force, despite being completely useless at actually defending the Citadel, is still on the War Assets list *after* the Citadel gets nabbed)
[/quote]
1. If it was that simple, they would have done it already. The Council has docking bays, gate security, and above all, LIFE SIGN SCANNERS.
And Spectres don't HAVE private docks. Shepard has to constantly use the Alliance dock. Saren would have had to use the turian dock, which is high-security. Even Spectres neet to go through customs, as Shepard shows us with all the security scanners in ME2 & ME3. ALSO, this would be easier to thwart, as they would have to fight through the wards as well as the presidum to get to the tower. Use the Cinduit, and you come out RIGHT ON TOP OF the Tower entrance, and the entrance to C-Sec headquarters nearby. You can take the station in minutes as opposed to hours, and before any military forces arrive in system. And you CAN'T have used the armada. If you dock at a public area, you would NEVER get to Citadel Control before the station's arms sealed, locking Sovergien out. Unless you can nuterlize Citadel Control quickly, the assualt fails.
The Conduit was the only to take Citadel Control, and C-Sec headquarters down quickly, before they even knew what hit them.[/quote]
How do you know Spectres don't, or can't, have private docks? Saren's wealthy, remember? He can buy or rent the most exclusive, convenient docking berth he wants, and do it through one of the corporations he's a major investor in -- or have Benezia do it for him.
And the scanners and security checkpoints in ME2 and ME3 are there *because of Sovereign's attack*. Not an issue before that.
So, you dock your ship (or hell, why not more than one for maximum confusion?), wait until shift-change or whenever else dock security is going to be at its least active and alert (and remember, there's no reason for them to be particularly alert in general), then signal the Geth to activate and assault all at once, and use the confusion to get to the Council chamber under pretense of protecting the Council (since Saren's still a trusted Spectre). Boom, you're there.
[quote]2. The Normandy is faster and tougher then the avarage ship. A prototype with Saliris Armor, Cyclonic Barriars, Argus Sensor Suite, Heilos Thruster Module, Thanix Cannon, and has an Reaper tech-using A.I working with the best pilot in the Alliance, and a Reaper IFF that EDI says has several Reaper stratigac algroithems on it.
I doubt every ship is like that, is it? So the Normandy taking that crusier ISN'T anything special. If anything if felt sorry for the Collectors.[/quote]
The Normandy is faster and tougher than the average *frigate*, yes. Frigates are the smallest of the non-fighter ship classes. According to the Codex, the Thanix cannon gives a frigate the approximate firepower of a non-upgraded cruiser -- and it punches through the Collector ship in one shot. Against an actual fleet, I think the Collector cruiser is toast.
3. It took THE REST OF THE REAPERS three years to get to the galaxy AFTER SOVERGIEN WAS KILLED. And WHY bother with coming when the Citadel was right there, primed and ready? They could win instantly, compaired to slogging through everyone at once and taking unessessary and unexpected losses.
And again, wrong. Read the "Reaper Vunerbilaties" and "The Miricale on Palaven" Codex entries. Dozens of Reapers were felled because they had to fight the hard way throu everyone at once. They couldn't pick one off at a time anymore, because they didn't have access to the Relay Network. They couldn't cut them off from each other, so if they focus on one, the others all gang up on them. So becauset they had to come the hard way, they had to take everyone at once, which caused unexpected losses.[/quote]
They took losses because everyone had time to get ready for them, improve ship weaponry, etc. -- but that only happened because Sovereign's attack let the galaxy know they were coming. If they just *come*, as soon as Sovereign realizes the batteries are dead in the remote, they'd have been there earlier than they eventually were, and *no one would have known they were coming*. For that matter, why waste time popping into Batarian space -- why not just go to the Citadel *first*? It's not like they don't know where it is, and they're coming from *outside the galaxy*.
[quote]And the only take the Citadel when the Illusive Man goes there himself. He likely became Saren 2.0 and sabotaged the station so the Reaper could attack it without the fear of being locked out before the could even get in. Cerbeurs's earlier attack likelu uprooted any indoctrinated the Reapers may have had on the station, so they couldn't attack before the station could lock them out. The Council forces would see them coming and seal the station. THAT'S why they never attacked the Citadel till the Illusive Man went ther himself to give a helping hand. A hard impregnable shell puts a dampner on a takeover plan.[/quote]
You just got finished telling me that Saren couldn't have done that on his own, that was why he needed the Conduit to bring the Geth in through. How'd Timmy manage it, all by himself, when Saren couldn't?
[/quote]
1. Ugh. NO HE ISN'T. turians don't HAVE munipacal wealth. They don't BELIEVE in that. Saren's just a soldier. He HAS no real value on money. It's trivial to him. If anything, Benezia was the one shelling out all the cash on his behalf.
And if SHEPARD can't get a private dock, Saren sure can't. There IS NO PRIVATE DOCK FOR SPECTRES. They MUST dock at the docking areas owned by their respective governments. In Saren's case, the Turian Hierarchy. At that point, he isn't indoctrinated to the point he'd put his fellow turian conciously in harm's way.
And the scanners and security mesures were only CONSPICOUS in ME2 & 3. YOU HAVE NO PROOF of them not existing. And they DO exist, seing how fast the Council locked out the Normandy's systems after it docked.
And they are MONITORED. AND they ALL have ajoining C-Sec posts to keep a close eye on it 24-7. (as shown by Anderson if you tell him to hit C-Sec docking control in the race to free the Normandy) And THAT many ships all with nearly the same cargo will draw eyes, especally if it's a Spectre singing the permits, to which the Council would become suspicious of Saren's actions.
Bottom Line: It WOULDN'T WORK. They'd have to slog through several areas, and by then, they'd call the military for a synthetic alert. The Geth Armada would NEVER get through to the Citadel before the arms close, because EVERY route to the presidum Tower would be locked down. They would never get there in time to keep the arms open. The attack would be doomed.
WHY attack through the CONSTANTLY MONITORED DOCKS, when you can get in through a back-door located RIGHT NEXT TO BOTH THE TOWER AND C-SEC HQ. It's NOT a hard choice.
2. Except they were only JUST cycling them in to the military. They WEREN'T standard-issue weapons till THE REAPER WAR. Do you understand? THEY WEREN'T THAT WIDESPEAD IN THE MILITARY TILL WELL AFTER THE SUICIDE MISSION.
And your statement was disproven already, since three turian cruisers, maybe four, were wiped out. Collector craft are the size of a Reaper.
3. You DO realize that Sovergien DIDN'T PLAN FOR THE ATTACK TO FAIL, right? You're talking like Sovergien thought it was GOING to die. If that was the case, it NEVRE WOULD HAVE ATTACKED. Not unless it thought is was SURE it would win. And if not for ONE person (Shepard) it WOULD have won.
If Sovergien activated the Citadel Relay and the Reapers poured through, would there have been any need to conceal their existance THEN? It never PLANED to FAIL.
The Citadel would have allowed them to CUT OFF THE MASS RELAY NETWORK. Then they could pick them apart one at a time, verses NEVER being able to take the Citadel without months of planning, as they would be able to lock the Reapers out at a moments notice, and the LAST thing the Reapers want is to damage the station. As well as having to fight everyone at once, since thay can't cut them off and segregate them anymore.
And look at the galaxy map, and see the Dark area behind Batarian Space? That was where the Repaers were situated before. The galaxy rotates too, but slowly, so they are facing a different area of space then 50,000 years before. It would have taken MUCH longer to treak through FTL all the damn way around. It's innefficant and wasteful. There was ONLY ONE WAY TO GO IF NOT THEOUGH THE CITADEL.
3. Cerberus still has contacts on the Station. Not to mention that not many non-government officals have actiually SEEN him in person. He's not the celebrety that Saren was.
And compairing them, Saren was easy to see as threatening. The Illusive Man, a 50 or so year old man in a buisness suit? He'd look like a causal person of leasure. The eyes coukd be explained as implants for astygmatisim, or a medical defect, or so on.
Unlike Saren, the Illusive Man hasn't had ALL his assets frozen. He can still manage travel. Look at Miranda. She got around rather easily, despite the security risks she must of posed as being Ex-Cerberus.
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