77 réponses à ce sujet

[Bullets McDeath]

Darth_Trethon wrote...

PC gamers don't matter because they are not the primary consumer base of DAO(the 360 and PS3 gamers are) and because PC gamers cry about getting crappy unsupported mods that are often incompatible with official DLCs or patches or simply don't work for no good reason instead of official DLCs. Then there are the pirates....tons of those too.

Look at the shelf space left in stores for PC games......it is going away and it's NOT because more gamers download games but because more gamers realize that gaming and PCs just don't mix right. As consoles evolve and start having MMOs like they are now then there will be no reason left for anyone to keep gaming on a PC. I won't bother to argue here because the PC fans will go on denial crusade about how there are no issues on the PC and that the PC support forums with all the well documented thousands of issues do not exist and how PC gaming is larger than ever but sales can't be documented due to digital downloads and a whole lot of other fantastical claims about dragons being real and such.

Did John Hodgman touch you in a bad place, dude? Why the irrational, almost gleeful, hatred of PC gaming? Because you can't figure it out or afford to do it, nobody else should either, I guess, huh?

By the way... what is arguably the most widely played and commercially successful game in America? World of Warcraft. Yeah, nobody games on PCs... except for, y'know, fuggin millions of them...

Modifié par outlaworacle, 09 janvier 2010 - 07:37 .

[bjdbwea]

Valcutio wrote...

MW2 continues to be 60 dollars for the PC because they refuse to drop the price, even through the holiday season - even with the console versions dropping in price. The only game on Steam to not receive a price reduction. No dedicated server support and no modding? Nobody can tell me they like their PC community. It almost seems they resent us.

And they have every right to do what they're doing. No one is entitled to their games, as good as they may be, the company owes you nothing. This is how a free market works: You either accept the price, or you can try to bargain (futile in this case), or you don't buy the product at all. You don't steal it. If the company can't find enough customers to buy at the proposed price, the price will be lowered, or the company will be bankrupt some day. (Things are different if a company has a monopoly and can dictate the price on much needed goods, but in the video games business both is not the case.)

[Scimal]

Dr Bawbag wrote...
That's a bold claim to make and that's why I've... erm bolded it

I'd be interested to see how the likes WoW stand up to the likes of Mario, Halo etc in the units shifted department.

Of course the PC is always going to be the better performer, no one can dispute that and i don't think anyone is actually disputing that fact.

Sure.

Xbox 360
Halo 3: 8.1 million units.
CoD4:MW: 3.772 million units
Wii
Mario Kart Wii: 18.36 million units
(Wii Fit/Sports/Play are 22.5 Million +, but they are bundled with the console, so it's... yeah.)
NES
Mario Bros. (Original for NES): 40.23 million units
PS3
Gran Tourismo 5: 4.17 million
PC
The Sims: 16 million units
The Sims 2: 13 million units
World of Warcraft: 11.5 million units
Starcraft: 11 million units
Half-Life: 9.3 million units
Half-Life 2: 6.5 million units

With the exception of packaged games and games for systems 20 years old (when the home PC was more of a hobby than mainstream gaming platform), fantastic PC games have almost always had higher sales. The Wii has its own niche - cheap and kid-friendly - which means that parents love it, hence the astoundingly high numbers. The "enthusiast" market is much more crowded, with the 360, the PS3, and the PC, and it takes the top selling Xbox 360 game to beat the 6th best-selling PC game (PS3 games are dismal - many of the top sellers are hovering at 1 million units).

The reason you don't see more development for the PC (outside of MMOs) is because the consoles are simply more profitable. Microsoft doesn't make money off of the Xbox360 - in fact the construction of the console causes them to lose money (or, it did when it first appeared). However, the games sell for $60 a pop, and it's through game sales that they see their profits. The Wii is another prime example. The console is dirt-cheap. However, everything else about it is expensive.

Plus, developers can work with the hardware much more efficiently. Xbox 360 games look fantastic on about 25% of the hardware horsepower than even my 2-year old PC has because of the programming. So you diminish development time, saving money. Then there's the tech support costs that you save a buttload on, and a known-market. For super-high-end PC games, like Crysis when it first came out, you're pandering to a market which remains fairly hard to get numbers on. I doubt more than 5% of the PCs in the US could run Crysis when it came out. 100% of the Xbox 360's can run Halo 3.

There are a lot of factors to take into account for the rise of the console as the primary focus of developers, and they're all fairly valid. However, PC game sales simply trump console sales. What's more; the PC sales still trump them even though it's far, far easier to pirate for the PC than any console.

As soon as the consoles start showing their age, either new consoles are developed or focus shifts back to the PC.

[Eisberg1977]

What makes me laugh is when pirates say that if a developer doesn't want their game to be pirated, then they need to make sure it is a good game, cause pirates don't pirate good games, only the bad games, this according to the pirates. Yet, the highest pirated games have always been the highest selling, highly rated games, and the crappy games hardly ever get pirated.



Pirates are good at 2 things, pirating games, and making up the most illogical excuses to pirate games. Very few pirates will actually admit that they just pirate games because why pay for something when you can get it for free.

[gamefemme]

There always have been and always will be people who steal (or pirate) entertainment.

Even before the internet as we know it, people would tape programming from the TV or Radio for their own use. Honest people who can afford to pay will pay. Some people will always steal, whether because they can't afford to Buy or just don't want to.

Then there are the normally honest Buyers whose morality will shift when they can't or won't legitimately pay, like Spore becoming the most pirated game because of DRM, or not being able to get legit DLC's because of problems with downloading, ie GFWL.

Then you lose revenue that you would have gotten if things had been easier for the consumer.

P.S. I personally do not illegally download games or DLC's. I just don't buy or play them if I have a problem with them.

Modifié par gamefemme, 09 janvier 2010 - 07:41 .

[Volourn]

"Piracy has a purpose and a place and it's sure as hell not to hurt "good" companies."

Wrong. Piracy's only place is form scumbag thieves to steal something that doesn't belong to them and get something for free. Piracy is about selfishness. That's it, that's all. Anyone who claims there some moral reason to do is a flat our liar as well as a thief.

If you think something is priced too high then don't buy it and spend your money on something you think is failry priced. Disagreeing with a price of something or thinking something sucks does NOt give you the moral right to steal it.

You do NOt have the right to free stuff. Period.

Modifié par Volourn, 09 janvier 2010 - 07:51 .

[Bullets McDeath]

It's also faintly retarded to start a thread about how we as gamers have a moral imperative to support these products with our cash and mention "of course, sometimes i pirate things too, but seriously guys" as part of your argument.



We, as PC Gamers, need to stop murdering helpless old people. Now, I crushed a few senior citizens in a garbage disposal once, but those guys were jerks. We really need to make sure this sort of thing doesn't keep happening.

[Volourn]

"We, as PC Gamers, need to stop murdering helpless old people. Now, I crushed a few senior citizens in a garbage disposal once, but those guys were jerks. We really need to make sure this sort of thing doesn't keep happening."



L0LZ

[Ryldaun]

great ^^

but serious, the pc vs console war isn't realy necessary fort this topic.

[LyonVanguard]

You do realize that most people here wouldn't have pirated the game. Perhaps posting this in a forum dedicated to pirating (which does exist) would make more of an impact. Frankly, considering the fact that some iphone games cost $10 (and above), I think the DLC is worth it.



The real issue is that people can't see things for what they are. Since Awakening being announced the only thing people have been complaining about was the $40 and the fact it was reported to be 15 hours long when in reality a game like Bayonetta is 15 hours long but costs $60 and is allot less enjoyable than DAO in my opinion.

[Scimal]

Eisberg1977 wrote...

What makes me laugh is when pirates say that if a developer doesn't want their game to be pirated, then they need to make sure it is a good game, cause pirates don't pirate good games, only the bad games, this according to the pirates. Yet, the highest pirated games have always been the highest selling, highly rated games, and the crappy games hardly ever get pirated.

Not true, actually.

The most pirated game in history, Spore, sucks. Well, okay - it's not that bad, but it's not great. Spore had 1.2 million pirated versions running around, and possibly more.

The reason was because EA was hurting actual customers with their DRC/DRM, so the massive pirating groups used their abilities to prove a point: DRM does not stop pirating. It only hurts customers.

Some pirates may think what you said, but many (if not most) are perfectly happy supporting good games with real money if it's a genuinely good game. An example is Sins of a Solar Empire, an RTS game. It was released with absolutely no DRM. Not even a disc check (or maybe simply a disc check, I forget). People on the forums were bawling about how it was going to get pirated left and right. While some copies are undoubtedly illegal, the vast majority are very legit, and fears never came to fruition.

Most piraters would happily pay for products they find to be quality, but it just so happens to be that 90% of the games being released are junk.

There's also other moral quandaries as well. When Napster was the pirating giant, many people used it to simply download a single track and not have to spend $15 ($10 of which, by the way, was pure profit) on a full-CD. At the time, nothing like iTunes was around, so it was either spend $15 on a full CD and 14 tracks you won't listen to or download the song you wanted. No middle-ground.

When iTunes came out, offering track downloads for $1, it was cheap, consumers got what they wanted, and it was a monumental success.

In that case it was the utter stubborness of the music industry to move on from their old ways which killed them, not a vendetta against spending.

Good games sell. Great games sell well. Fantastic games make records. Always have, always will.

Pirates are good at 2 things, pirating games, and making up the most illogical excuses to pirate games. Very few pirates will actually admit that they just pirate games because why pay for something when you can get it for free.

You should talk to them more often.

Some do what you said, most don't. Most are perfectly happy spending money on good games. Like I said before, it's just circumstance that most of the games coming out aren't terribly innovative, stunning, or all that great.

[DragonRageGT]

KahnyaGnorc wrote...

Now, the real thing you should do is buy the stuff from the former and neither buy nor pirate from the latter,

Agreed and there's a word that would things much easier: DEMO

If I had never got a pre-release demo of Diablo 1 from a magazine, my first PC game, I would probable never have heard of it. And wouldn't have started loving PC games like BG after that first one! I had a very serious life where "games" were something that I would gift my niece for her Atari, only.

Now, what makes me laugh is people judging other people. You don't want to do it, don't. Others want to do it? Whatever. It is their choice and they know what they're doing. Does it hurt your feelings? Too bad. Does it hurt the companies which make the products? NO and it is proven already! It may actually end up adding some extra sales because lots of them want to get the real thing after trying, with patches, online servers, DLC, whatever.

And you think who is the pirate next time you buy a fake Rolex or a fake Louis Vitton purse or a copied disk of a pc/console game. Or when you see them for sale, if you would never buy such thing!

[DragonRageGT]

gamefemme wrote...

There always have been and always will be people who steal (or pirate) entertainment.

Even before the internet as we know it, people would tape programming from the TV or Radio for their own use. Honest people who can afford to pay will pay. Some people will always steal, whether because they can't afford to Buy or just don't want to.

... stuff

P.S. I personally do not illegally download games or DLC's. I just don't buy or play them if I have a problem with them.

Are you saying that taping a TV show for watching later is stealing? I thought that the US Supreme Court had already a ruling on that! Maybe I'm wrong since I don't live there and don't really follow what they do.

But I remember a time where teens, like I was then, would make a k-7 tape of their favourite songs of their legit vynil records and trade with friends for their k-7 tapes of their favourite songs of their legit vvynil records. No one would even dare to say we were stealing and we loved to play those tapes in our cars.

And @ your P.S.: You're so right! I don't either unless there is no demo for it. It's a fraking expensive price to pay for a lousy product where I live and they don't take devolution if the product is a lousy one!

I hope you try your expensive clothes on, at the store, before buying them, don't you?

[Scimal]

Volourn wrote...


Wrong. Piracy's only place is form scumbag thieves to steal something that doesn't belong to them and get something for free. Piracy is about selfishness. That's it, that's all. Anyone who claims there some moral reason to do is a flat our liar as well as a thief.

Well, it is almost purely about selfishness. This is true. However, so is selling and making games... Believe me, if EA had the chance, they would rob you blind.

In fact, they almost did to everyone who really purchased Spore. Spore's DRM, which required an internet connection, daily interacts with the master server, a CD-Key, and limited installs of the game to 4 (based on whatever they wanted) ie. - if your Windows install gets corrupted or you get a virus, that would take one install. If you changed your hardware, that was another install. Changing the OS (like going from Vista to Win7) would take an install.

Why? Because they could.

Selfish is as selfish does. The more (overtly) selfish the company becomes, the more selfish the consumers will become.

If you think something is priced too high then don't buy it and spend your money on something you think is failry priced. Disagreeing with a price of something or thinking something sucks does NOt give you the moral right to steal it.

Ostensibly this is true. However, keep in mind that morals and ethics are purely human creations. There aren't any laws of the Universe which prohibit stealing (and quite a few which encourage it).

You do NOt have the right to free stuff. Period.

I know you meant something else, but I just find this amusing.

It's precisely what the head of any greedy company would say.

[Valcutio]

outlaworacle wrote...

It's also faintly retarded to start a thread about how we as gamers have a moral imperative to support these products with our cash and mention "of course, sometimes i pirate things too, but seriously guys" as part of your argument.

We, as PC Gamers, need to stop murdering helpless old people. Now, I crushed a few senior citizens in a garbage disposal once, but those guys were jerks. We really need to make sure this sort of thing doesn't keep happening.

I never said I've pirated anything but piracy will happen whether you want it to or not. You know what they say about assuming, right?

[KahnyaGnorc]

RageGT wrote...



And you think who is the pirate next time you buy a fake Rolex or a fake Louis Vitton purse or a copied disk of a pc/console game. Or when you see them for sale, if you would never buy such thing!

The fake stuff is fraud, not piracy.  Buying pirated material (buying the copied discs) is a crime (knowingly buying stolen property), but it isn't priacy.  The one who MADE the copied disc with an intent to sell is a pirate, though, as is the one who downloads the game illegally.

[Bullets McDeath]

Valcutio wrote...

outlaworacle wrote...

It's also faintly retarded to start a thread about how we as gamers have a moral imperative to support these products with our cash and mention "of course, sometimes i pirate things too, but seriously guys" as part of your argument.

We, as PC Gamers, need to stop murdering helpless old people. Now, I crushed a few senior citizens in a garbage disposal once, but those guys were jerks. We really need to make sure this sort of thing doesn't keep happening.

I never said I've pirated anything but piracy will happen whether you want it to or not. You know what they say about assuming, right?

If I knew a way to make that smiley bigger, I would. Nice try though.

[Fantus]

KahnyaGnorc wrote...

RageGT wrote...



And you think who is the pirate next time you buy a fake Rolex or a fake Louis Vitton purse or a copied disk of a pc/console game. Or when you see them for sale, if you would never buy such thing!

The fake stuff is fraud, not piracy.  Buying pirated material (buying the copied discs) is a crime (knowingly buying stolen property), but it isn't priacy.  The one who MADE the copied disc with an intent to sell is a pirate, though, as is the one who downloads the game illegally.

Well, actually nobody involved here is a pirate. Pirates are (armed) robbers who are capturing ships and stealing their load, sometimes making cash by kidnapping, too. The offense discussed here is called "copyright infringement".  In the eyes of the content industry, this sounded too harmless, so they started to compare it to murderers.

Modifié par Fantus, 09 janvier 2010 - 08:15 .

[addiction21]

LyonVanguard wrote...

You do realize that most people here wouldn't have pirated the game. Perhaps posting this in a forum dedicated to pirating (which does exist) would make more of an impact. Frankly, considering the fact that some iphone games cost $10 (and above), I think the DLC is worth it. 

http://en.wikipedia....e_Unsung_Heroes well worth my 7.99$ imho (did use a gift card from xmas tho but I woulda paid for it) is a little cheesy with the whole "power of music" but Ive played it for about 10 hours allready. FF tactics kinda game
But ya people tha try to quantify a unknown (like the upcomming expansions worth) are just silly. Just as silly as thinking you are moralley right to steal something that has no bearing on if you live or die.

[Bullets McDeath]

Actually, pirate can mean any kind of social predator, from a high seas robber to a con man or slumlord. Or some dickwad who downloads copyrighted material for free because he can get away with it and then likes to invent complex moralistic frameworks for why he's actually striking a blow against THE MAN, not... y'know, just stealing sh*t.

[ToJKa1]

RageGT wrote...
Does it hurt the companies which make the products? NO and it is proven already! It may actually end up adding some extra sales because lots of them want to get the real thing after trying, with patches, online servers, DLC, whatever.

Most of the pirates wouldn't have bought the game in the first place, so why waste money on non-customers while inconviniencing customers?

Borrowing (not pirating ) the words of Brad Wardell, the CEO of Stardock. http://draginol.joeu...iracy_PC_Gaming

[Fantus]

outlaworacle wrote...

Actually, pirate can mean any kind of social predator, from a high seas robber to a con man or slumlord. Or some dickwad who downloads copyrighted material for free because he can get away with it and then likes to invent complex moralistic frameworks for why he's actually striking a blow against THE MAN, not... y'know, just stealing sh*t.

Wrong:

Piracy is a war-like act committed by private parties (not affiliated with any government) that engaged in acts of robbery and/or criminal violence at sea.

Source: Wikipedia

[Bullets McDeath]

You know why they don't let you use Wikipedia as a source in academic papers, right? Part of me thinks you are just trolling for the lulz but in case you really are baffled by this use of the word pirate:

http://dictionary.re...m/browse/pirate

From Dictionary.com...
4. a person who uses or reproduces the work or invention of another without authorization.

Modifié par outlaworacle, 09 janvier 2010 - 08:22 .

[Monica21]

Fantus wrote...

Wrong:

Piracy is a war-like act committed by private parties (not affiliated with any government) that engaged in acts of robbery and/or criminal violence at sea.

Source: Wikipedia

That's one definition.

Piracy: The unauthorized reproduction or use of an invention or work of
another, as a book, recording, computer software, intellectual
property, etc., esp. as constituting an infringement of patent or
copyright; plagiarism; an instance of this.

Source: Oxford English Dictionary. As a general rule, I try to avoide wikipedia when there are better sources available.

[Monica21]

Damn double posting

Modifié par Monica21, 09 janvier 2010 - 08:25 .