84 réponses à ce sujet

[ZeCollectorDestroya]

Are people seriously arguing over a character not having a certain sexual orientation? This isn't a dating simulator. This thread makes me feel like a basement nerd who is still a virgin >.> Not everyone has to be bisexual.

Let this thread die.

Modifié par ZeCollectorDestroya, 02 février 2013 - 11:58 .

[Inspectre]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

That's not what I wrote - I said that *given* that Tali is attracted to non-quarians at all (which is really mindbogglingly weird IRL so that may affect my opinion) I think that it is contrived for her to be only attracted to manShep.

Garrus is a better example - he outright says that he's not attracted to humans but wants to be with Shepard anyway - so why only femShep? It can't be her winning personality since manShep is/can be exactly the same.

Perhaps Garrus and Tali can tell the difference between Human males and females?
It is very obvious that the ME dev team wanted the aliens to be as human as possible, functionally and in personality.

The aliens in Mass Effect arn't alien.  Thus, no 'species' boundary to overcome.

AlexMBrennan wrote...

However, think it's contrived that all the alien squadmember LIs are heterosexual.

... You've never heard of the great scientist Liara?

Modifié par Dragon XIX, 03 février 2013 - 01:38 .

[Reever]

I'd be honestly all for it, but not everybody has to be bi-sexual, so it's good as is.

[Gungelion]

You guys seem to be misinterpreting my question. This has nothing to do with homosexual, bi-sexual or whatever. I was asking is everybody was disappointed.

personally, I would’ve been very happy with a sisterly bond moment.

[Only-Twin]

To me it would seem rather out of character for her. Her personality is very straight, but it could always be done.

However with quarian culture, I couldn't see homosexuality as very common. They have a very close-knit community-centered culture. That with the need to keep population stable makes me think that it wouldn't be widespread among quarians.

[AlexMBrennan]

Perhaps Garrus and Tali can tell the difference between Human males and females?

That's not what I said.

The aliens in Mass Effect arn't alien. Thus, no 'species' boundary to overcome.

Then why does Garrus claim to not find humans attractive?

It is very obvious that the ME dev team wanted the aliens to be as human as possible

That's a meta argument - just because turians don't look alien to you (really, though?), you can't deduce that in-universe people (e.g. Tali) don't see him as an alien.

As I said, it seems contrived and arbitary that someone as open minded as Tali (male quarians, humans and turians i.e. anyone with a *****) is a romance option for manShep only.I don't like bad writing, so I am disappointed.

[JesseLee202]

[quote]AlexMBrennan wrote...
[quote]Quarians look extremely similar to humans, actually one of the closest[/quote]
Well, I was able to tell the difference. Maybe you should see an optician to prevent... accidents.
[Edit to add: Note that Tali also hooks up with Garrus if neither is romanced - do you want me to tell that turians look just like quarians as well?][/quote]Tali is not interested in any female character that has the corresponding traits that go along with it. Tali also does not state that she even has feelings for any female/feminine character on a sexual level.

Garrus and Maleshep both act more masculine than feminine, yes? So why is it so hard to accept that Tali is attracted to a masculine male persona, rather than a female? That little fact that Tali doesn't romance fshep just proves my point. Tali doesn't like feminine traits in a romantic relationship.

[quote]
[quote]Trying to say that she would magically start to like females simply because we are not the same race is absurd.[/quote]
That's not what I wrote - I said that *given* that Tali is attracted to non-quarians at all (which is really mindbogglingly weird IRL so that may affect my opinion) I think that it is contrived for her to be only attracted to manShep.[/quote]Except Tali is not only attracted to maleshep. Why is it so hard to believe that someone cannot be attracted to the same sex? Species has nothing to do with this.

[quote]Garrus is a better example - he outright says that he's not attracted to humans but wants to be with Shepard anyway - so why only femShep? It can't be her winning personality since manShep is/can be exactly the same. It not logically consistent - it like they made it that way because they have a quota for straight LIs.[/quote]Maybe you just have a hard time grasping that certain people are not attracted to the same sex, regardless of what they look like or their personality. Garrus obviously doesn't like D's. Tali obviously doesn't like P's. This doesn't apply to every one, but it does for Garrus and Tali. It's not contrived simply because you don't understand it. 

[quote]
[quote]In the end I am right. Because Tali is not a romance option for fshep[/quote]
Nope. Whether Tali is an romance option for femShep only is irrelevant to the question at hand - whether that restriction is contrived or not.[/quote]It's not irrelevant. It is in-game proof Tali is not attracted to a female that has the exact same personality as maleshep. Tali does not like females. What is so hard to understand?

[quote]At the end of the day, ME romance system is absurd: Barring Me2 loyalty conflicts and getting them killed, LIs don't give a damn about whether Shepard is a xenophobic murderous bastard or a righteous Girl Scout as long as Shepard has the right equipment.[/quote]That is what you call continuity error. BioWare's system is by no means a perfect one, it's players that are making those choices and make situations in-game unrealistic. Like wearing Cerberus armor in ME3 on the Citadel coup mission. It makes no sense.

[quote]
[quote]Do you have something against characters that are attracted to only the opposite sex?[/quote]
Don't you think that you might be extrapolating a bit too far from me commenting on a single LI?[/quote]Nope. You commented that Tali's romance is contrived because she is only available to Maleshep/Garrus and not fshep.

[quote]I have no problem with Ash, Jacob, Miranda, Vega or Traynor. However, think it's contrived that all the alien squadmember LIs are heterosexual.
(Again, I consider it contrived that only manShep's magical **** can help Jack overcome her psychological issues; Jack being straight is fine[/quote]That is merely opinion. It's not my fault, or BioWare's fault, that you cannot grasp that some people are not attracted to the same sex, regardless of race, species, or personality.

You can go ahead and believe that they are contrived, but it doesn't change anything. Tali is not available to fshep. And she never will be.

This arguing is pointless. I'm done bumping this thread. Lets just agree to disagree.

Modifié par JesseLee202, 03 février 2013 - 03:21 .

[Battlebloodmage]

Only-Twin wrote...

To me it would seem rather out of character for her. Her personality is very straight, but it could always be done.

However with quarian culture, I couldn't see homosexuality as very common. They have a very close-knit community-centered culture. That with the need to keep population stable makes me think that it wouldn't be widespread among quarians.

I could never understand when people say someone look gay as if homosexuality is dictated by their behaviors. I'm not trying to argue, but it's just a pet peeve of mine.

[Only-Twin]

Haha not trying to be judgmental about it

[clennon8]

Reorte wrote...

clennon8 wrote...

StormWolf11 wrote...

No.

That's not her character. And I don't think they should sacrifice who the character is just for the sake of...whatever that would accomplish.

I was incredibly disappointed to see that done to Kaiden (and I think Ashley too?) What does changing their orientation halfway through the series do except make the company seem like they're pandering, and make the character seem inconsistent (or else really, really desperate).

Homophobe alert.

There's nothing homophobic about not wanting every single character to be bisexual. I really wonder about people sometimes. Tali's straight. Get over it.

It's fine that Tali is straight.  I've spent zero time objecting to it.  What I object to are the following:

1.  The mind-set that a person's sexual orientation informs their character.  
2.  The notion that finding out that someone is not straight makes that person a different person.  
3.  The notion that making a character bi or gay is any way more "pandering" than making that character straight.

These are all thinly-veiled forms of homophobia.

Modifié par clennon8, 03 février 2013 - 10:07 .

[Metalunatic]

Some people just don't swing both ways no matter how much one would want them to.

[AlexMBrennan]

Maleshep both act more masculine than feminine, yes?

No. That's the whole point of my argument - Shepard's actions are entirely up to the player and even their dialogue is exactly the same as femShep's.

The fact that romance does not depend on actions, personality or looks but only on whether Shepard has a ***** is what makes these restrictions it contrived - Bioware arbitrarily picked one of the factors and decided to ignore everything else.

That little fact that Tali doesn't romance fshep just proves my point.

Bioware, being the author, can declare any contrived nonsense to be canon (cf ME3), for any reason. That does not imply that these facts are automatically logically consistent.

Except Tali is not only attracted to maleshep

Context made it clear what I was talking about Tali being attracted to manShep but not femShep despite the fact that it is really mindbogglingly weird to be attracted to Shepard at all.

It's not irrelevant. It is in-game proof Tali is not attracted to a female that has the exact same personality as maleshep. Tali does not like females. What is so hard to understand?

You are completely missing the point here.

We are not debating facts but whether these facts are logically consistent. We both agree that Tali is straight in the game. We both agree that Bioware won't change this.

BioWare's system is by no means a perfect one, it's players that are making those choices and make situations in-game unrealistic. Like wearing Cerberus armor in ME3 on the Citadel coup mission. It makes no sense.

So, your idea of choices affecting the game is "blame the player for silliness when they pick the wrong one"?

If a good DM would/wouldn't allow it then it should be/should not be possible in the game.

Nope. You commented that Tali's romance is contrived because she is only available to Maleshep/Garrus and not fshep.

Indeed I did. Your conclusion - that I suffer from heterophobia, however, is not warranted. (Look up "extrapolation" or any other hard words).

Tali is not available to fshep. And she never will be.

Your point being? We've already established that we agree on the facts. Restating facts we agree on won't convince me.

Is Shepard arbitrarily deciding the fate of the Council in ME1 any less arbitrary or contrived because it's canonical fact? No - it's contrived because Hacket should have made that call rather than traumatised-from-relay-travel-in-a-car Shepard who has none of the information on the battle needed to make an educated decision nor any experience commanding fleets.

Shepard deciding the fate of the Rachni is contrived - he could have just as easily notified the Council before pushing the button since the queen wasn't going anywhere. Etc.

There are lots of contrived events in ME, so your argument that it's not contrived because it's canon is a complete non-squitur.

[StormWolf11]

clennon8 wrote...

Reorte wrote...

clennon8 wrote...

StormWolf11 wrote...

No.

That's not her character. And I don't think they should sacrifice who the character is just for the sake of...whatever that would accomplish.

I was incredibly disappointed to see that done to Kaiden (and I think Ashley too?) What does changing their orientation halfway through the series do except make the company seem like they're pandering, and make the character seem inconsistent (or else really, really desperate).

Homophobe alert.

There's nothing homophobic about not wanting every single character to be bisexual. I really wonder about people sometimes. Tali's straight. Get over it.

It's fine that Tali is straight.  I've spent zero time objecting to it.  What I object to are the following:

1.  The mind-set that a person's sexual orientation informs their character.  
2.  The notion that finding out that someone is not straight makes that person a different person.  
3.  The notion that making a character bi or gay is any way more "pandering" than making that character straight.

These are all thinly-veiled forms of homophobia.

So someone’s orientation does in no way inform their character at all, but somehow thinking that it does informs you of my character?


"3. The notion that making a character bi or gay is any way more "pandering" than making that character straight." (Emphasis mine.)

That's not what I said. I was arguing that "changing a character to be bi or gay seemed to me to "pander" more than keeping that character straight." If you're going to change something, you should have a reason for changing it. And If their reason was just to be more politically correct, or more diverse, and not for the sake of the story or the character(s), then yes, I would call that pandering. If that makes me "homophobic", then so be it.

Modifié par StormWolf11, 03 février 2013 - 06:27 .

[Terraforming2154]

For me personally, there was a lack of f/f romance that felt substantial (barring Liara). I would have loved Ash/femshep (seriously, only character in ME I really wanted to romance) or even Tali/femshep.
Samantha was nice, but her content was very slim.

[Battlebloodmage]

StormWolf11 wrote...


That's not what I said. I was arguing that "changing a character to be bi or gay seemed to me to "pander" more than keeping that character straight." If you're going to change something, you should have a reason for changing it. And If their reason was just to be more politically correct, or more diverse, and not for the sake of the story or the character(s), then yes, I would call that pandering. If that makes me "homophobic", then so be it.[smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/alien.png[/smilie]

I propose a solution to your problem. Every bisexual guy in Bioware games must be required by the law to express his undying love for the penis the first time you meet and vice versa for the bisexual girls.

Modifié par Battlebloodmage, 03 février 2013 - 07:35 .

[SilentK]

Tali-vas-normandy wrote...

we females got Gaurrs instead, I have to admit though femshep has less romance options then male shepard, I hope in me4 the female hero will have the same amount of romance options as the male

Jupp, I would be very upset if there was such a great difference as there was in ME3. But FemShep gets Garrus much earlier than BroShep gets Tali so that is one perk for us.

[Terraforming2154]

Tali-vas-normandy wrote...

we females got Gaurrs instead, I have to admit though femshep has less romance options then male shepard, I hope in me4 the female hero will have the same amount of romance options as the male

I hope so too. Swtor and its unbalanced romances makes me feel sort of worried the trend of fewer female romances will continue (I know different teams are responsible for the games, but still).

[Samtheman63]

the only thing lacking regarding tali was to shoot her and smash her face against the wall (hard enough to break her helmet so she gets infected too) in me1 when she has the evidence, so the dirty infectious suit rat never gets on the normandy in the first place

[Only-Twin]

Thanks for that wonderful insight, samntheman.

[ShadyKat]

What is all this talk about fem Shep having less romantic options than male Shep?


ME 1
Male Shep
Liara
Ash


Female Shep
Liara
Kaidan





ME2
Male Shep
Tail
Miranda
Jack



Female Shep
Garrus
Thane
Jacob (no one romances him)




ME3

Male Shep
Liara
Tali
Ash
Kaidan
Cortez


Female Shep
Tannor
Kaidan
Garrus
Liara





The romances were pretty even throughout the series.

[Mims]

 It is uneven when you sit and look at the content. By the end of ME3, Femshep has lost two of her potential LIs due to budget story. One of these is reasonable [Thane]. The other is just a lack of interest on their part. Imagine if they had done that to Miranda and Jack. 

In addition, Garrus can't be romanced in ME3. If you killed Kaidan, that means you now have zero straight romances. 

[ofarrell]

Not every alien is bisexual

[Battlebloodmage]

Mims wrote...

 It is uneven when you sit and look at the content. By the end of ME3, Femshep has lost two of her potential LIs due to budget story. One of these is reasonable [Thane]. The other is just a lack of interest on their part. Imagine if they had done that to Miranda and Jack. 

In addition, Garrus can't be romanced in ME3. If you killed Kaidan, that means you now have zero straight romances. 

You can romance Garrus, provided that you romance him in ME2, the same with Tali. I do agree though. Both Thane and Jacob left Shepard's side while Jack and Miranda remain faithful to Shep. It just seems odd that both romance that end abruptly are of female Shep.

[Yuqi]

Femshep is not supposed to exist, so it's a moot point.

[Battlebloodmage]

Yuqi wrote...

Femshep is not supposed to exist, so it's a moot point.

The developers have confirmed that both Sheps are canon.