279 réponses à ce sujet

[TobiTobsen]

GlassElephant wrote...

Maniccc wrote...

Javik was a narrowminded, fanatical, supremacist jerk.

Liara just witnessed her homeworld fall to Reapers, and also learned that what she had been taught all her life about her own species was at least in part a lie. Add in all the desperation of a fight for existence, and sure, she's upset. She feels helpless. So of course she has a breakdown. Javik was not putting her in her place, he was just being insensitive and ignorant, not knowing how to respond to an emotionally distressed Liara.

Javik does the same thing on the Citadel when he starts to give that speech, and Shep has to para-interrupt the idiot. Javik is kind of stupid.

If Javik went into Liara's room while she was crying on her bed and went "Ha ha, primitive.  Let me taste your tears as your great race falls", then I'd agree.

As mentioned before, she goes into his room to start a fight.  She actually almost threatens to physically harm the guy- who was just minding his own damn business.  The scene is sooo much worse if you don't bring Javik to Thessia.

Hahahaha! Now I want this picture to be remade with Javik and Liara!

Modifié par TobiTobsen, 03 février 2013 - 02:49 .

[JBPBRC]

GlassElephant wrote...

Maniccc wrote...

Javik was a narrowminded, fanatical, supremacist jerk.

Liara just witnessed her homeworld fall to Reapers, and also learned that what she had been taught all her life about her own species was at least in part a lie. Add in all the desperation of a fight for existence, and sure, she's upset. She feels helpless. So of course she has a breakdown. Javik was not putting her in her place, he was just being insensitive and ignorant, not knowing how to respond to an emotionally distressed Liara.

Javik does the same thing on the Citadel when he starts to give that speech, and Shep has to para-interrupt the idiot. Javik is kind of stupid.

If Javik went into Liara's room while she was crying on her bed and went "Ha ha, primitive.  Let me taste your tears as your great race falls", then I'd agree.

As mentioned before, she goes into his room to start a fight.  She actually almost threatens to physically harm the guy- who was just minding his own damn business.  The scene is sooo much worse if you don't bring Javik to Thessia.

Wait...it happens regardless of whether or not you bring Javik to Thessia?

Srsly?

[The Night Mammoth]

JBPBRC wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

DirtySHISN0 wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...
I mean, even if you don't like Liara, if she's going to be in the game so much, wouldn't you rather she did something worthwhile? 

So long as i had the option to avoid it.

I used to like Liara until she became unavoidable.

That's kinda beside the point though. If she's going to be unavoidable to some extent, like she is, it would be better if there are significant reasons for that involving her being the Shadow Broker.

But then what would poor little Traynor do?

She can keep the tip off about Grissom, and maybe she has a few lines involving the N7 missions, but finding out about Sanctuary? 

Yeah, I think it would be slightly more logical to have the Shadow Broker tip you off about that one. 

[JBPBRC]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

JBPBRC wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

DirtySHISN0 wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...
I mean, even if you don't like Liara, if she's going to be in the game so much, wouldn't you rather she did something worthwhile? 

So long as i had the option to avoid it.

I used to like Liara until she became unavoidable.

That's kinda beside the point though. If she's going to be unavoidable to some extent, like she is, it would be better if there are significant reasons for that involving her being the Shadow Broker.

But then what would poor little Traynor do?

She can keep the tip off about Grissom, and maybe she has a few lines involving the N7 missions, but finding out about Sanctuary? 

Yeah, I think it would be slightly more logical to have the Shadow Broker tip you off about that one. 

Or at the very least Miranda. Either of those two make more sense than Traynor.

[The Night Mammoth]

DirtySHISN0 wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

That's kinda beside the point though. If she's going to be unavoidable to some extent, like she is, it would be better if there are significant reasons for that involving her being the Shadow Broker.

See, i like where you went with that.

Not sure i will be able to explain why i feel this way, but i'll try.

I liked Lair of the shadow broker, but i didn't like how it was carried through to ME3 regardless of whether people actually bought it. The consequence of the DLC should be Liara as Shadow broker in ME3 and the consequence of not buying it should be Traynor as your primary source of information. Not both, both character's roles are devalued because of it.

I bought Shadow broker and have played it a few times, but i would at least be able to avoid the extra Liara stuff in ME3 by simply not playing LotSB in ME2 on a single save file.

I don't mind stuff like thessia - who else should accompany us on the Asari homewolrd?. Just the stuff that is largely unimportant that we have to involve Liara in anyway, which i guess includes Thessia. You get what i mean though. I agree she needs screen time, none at all would be an injustice to her fans, but as it is it feels too forced and unavoidable.


There, i tried. 

Little explanation of my character tastes;                        (if it helps)
ME1 favs                  →                  ME3 favs
-Liara      then       Time      now    -Legion
-Tali                                                  -Jack
-Garrus                                            - Mordin

BioWare really hamstrung themselves by making really plot important stuff happen in DLC's. 

I don't object to any of that, except I'd be a bit skeptical of just having the Shadow Broker role filled completely by Traynor, since she's not an information broker, or even someone with direct access to an information network, just someone who handles the Normandy's communications.  

I really have no idea what they should do alternatively. You either have them fulfill the same things and just have Liara do more instead of Traynor if she's the Shadow Broker, or have Traynor do more if Liara isn't, or you have them fulfill completely separate things, but then there's the issue of what Liara does if she's the Shadow Broker, or you have a whole set of extra things that happen if you finished the Shadow Broker DLC.

So to be honest, I think they did best thing possible by making Liara the Shadow Broker by default.

Typically, even the execution of that isn't fantastic.

[The Night Mammoth]

JBPBRC wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

JBPBRC wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

DirtySHISN0 wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...
I mean, even if you don't like Liara, if she's going to be in the game so much, wouldn't you rather she did something worthwhile? 

So long as i had the option to avoid it.

I used to like Liara until she became unavoidable.

That's kinda beside the point though. If she's going to be unavoidable to some extent, like she is, it would be better if there are significant reasons for that involving her being the Shadow Broker.

But then what would poor little Traynor do?

She can keep the tip off about Grissom, and maybe she has a few lines involving the N7 missions, but finding out about Sanctuary? 

Yeah, I think it would be slightly more logical to have the Shadow Broker tip you off about that one. 

Or at the very least Miranda. Either of those two make more sense than Traynor.

I'm gonna stick with Liara in this situation. 

Simply because Miranda's role in the plot should be a whole lot different and her sister shouldn't even be involved. 

[JBPBRC]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

So to be honest, I think they did best thing possible by making Liara the Shadow Broker by default.

Typically, even the execution of that isn't fantastic.

...Yeah. There's even one point, in a non-import playthrough, where Shepard discovers Liara is the SB during conversation. Fine. He takes it pretty well all things considered, even seems vaguely interested, but fine. Whatever.

Several missions later, EDI is complaining about Liara calling her a blabbermouth, eventually saying Liara is the SB. Cue Shepard going "Wait. Liara's the Shadow Broker?"

*facepalms all up in this game*

[DirtySHISN0]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

BioWare really hamstrung themselves by making really plot important stuff happen in DLC's. 

I don't object to any of that, except I'd be a bit skeptical of just having the Shadow Broker role filled completely by Traynor, since she's not an information broker, or even someone with direct access to an information network, just someone who handles the Normandy's communications.  

I really have no idea what they should do alternatively. You either have them fulfill the same things and just have Liara do more instead of Traynor if she's the Shadow Broker, or have Traynor do more if Liara isn't, or you have them fulfill completely separate things, but then there's the issue of what Liara does if she's the Shadow Broker, or you have a whole set of extra things that happen if you finished the Shadow Broker DLC.

So to be honest, I think they did best thing possible by making Liara the Shadow Broker by default.

Typically, even the execution of that isn't fantastic.

The problem is when you have them both it makes one redundant or both incompetent. If they really wanted them both around they could have found away to handle it better without making either look silly.

I like Liara being the broker, but they (unintentionally?) made her look so bad at it.

[JBPBRC]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

JBPBRC wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

JBPBRC wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

DirtySHISN0 wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...
I mean, even if you don't like Liara, if she's going to be in the game so much, wouldn't you rather she did something worthwhile? 

So long as i had the option to avoid it.

I used to like Liara until she became unavoidable.

That's kinda beside the point though. If she's going to be unavoidable to some extent, like she is, it would be better if there are significant reasons for that involving her being the Shadow Broker.

But then what would poor little Traynor do?

She can keep the tip off about Grissom, and maybe she has a few lines involving the N7 missions, but finding out about Sanctuary? 

Yeah, I think it would be slightly more logical to have the Shadow Broker tip you off about that one. 

Or at the very least Miranda. Either of those two make more sense than Traynor.

I'm gonna stick with Liara in this situation. 

Simply because Miranda's role in the plot should be a whole lot different and her sister shouldn't even be involved. 

Oh I agree. Just saying Miranda would still be a better alternative to Traynor.

[The Night Mammoth]

DirtySHISN0 wrote...

The problem is when you have them both it makes one redundant or both incompetent. If they really wanted them both around they could have found away to handle it better without making either look silly.

I like Liara being the broker, but they (unintentionally?) made her look so bad at it.

True, and there's a whole bunch of opportunities to make her stand out that I notice every time I play, which just makes it even more annoying. 

The Ardat-Yakshi Monastery, the Rachni Mission, and the Citadel Coup spring to mind. 

Modifié par The Night Mammoth, 03 février 2013 - 03:53 .

[The Night Mammoth]

JBPBRC wrote...

Oh I agree. Just saying Miranda would still be a better alternative to Traynor.

I certainly don't disagree with that. 

[JBPBRC]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

DirtySHISN0 wrote...

The problem is when you have them both it makes one redundant or both incompetent. If they really wanted them both around they could have found away to handle it better without making either look silly.

I like Liara being the broker, but they (unintentionally?) made her look so bad at it.

True, and there's a whole bunch of opportunities to make her stand out that I notice every time I play, which just makes it even more annoying. 

The Ardat-Yakshi Monastery, the Rachni Mission, and the Citadel Coup spring to mind. 

Eve's location at the STG base is another one I tend to think of. 

[The Night Mammoth]

JBPBRC wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

DirtySHISN0 wrote...

The problem is when you have them both it makes one redundant or both incompetent. If they really wanted them both around they could have found away to handle it better without making either look silly.

I like Liara being the broker, but they (unintentionally?) made her look so bad at it.

True, and there's a whole bunch of opportunities to make her stand out that I notice every time I play, which just makes it even more annoying. 

The Ardat-Yakshi Monastery, the Rachni Mission, and the Citadel Coup spring to mind. 

Eve's location at the STG base is another one I tend to think of. 

Why Liara doesn't represent the asari at the summit  I'll never know, but yeah, that's another one I'd imagine Liara could very easily have had some input for. 

Modifié par The Night Mammoth, 03 février 2013 - 04:09 .

[Falaxe]

I bet that Joker enjoyed watching Javik and Liara sodom... Eh, argumentation tapes wich were secretly recorded by EDI

Modifié par Falaxe, 03 février 2013 - 04:14 .

[Dean_the_Young]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

JBPBRC wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

DirtySHISN0 wrote...

The problem is when you have them both it makes one redundant or both incompetent. If they really wanted them both around they could have found away to handle it better without making either look silly.

I like Liara being the broker, but they (unintentionally?) made her look so bad at it.

True, and there's a whole bunch of opportunities to make her stand out that I notice every time I play, which just makes it even more annoying. 

The Ardat-Yakshi Monastery, the Rachni Mission, and the Citadel Coup spring to mind. 

Eve's location at the STG base is another one I tend to think of. 

Why Liara doesn't represent the asari at the summit  I'll never know, but yeah, that's another one I'd imagine Liara could very easily have had some input for. 

Probably because the closest Liara comes to a position of government authority is that her mother was a traitor?

[The Night Mammoth]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

JBPBRC wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

DirtySHISN0 wrote...

The problem is when you have them both it makes one redundant or both incompetent. If they really wanted them both around they could have found away to handle it better without making either look silly.

I like Liara being the broker, but they (unintentionally?) made her look so bad at it.

True, and there's a whole bunch of opportunities to make her stand out that I notice every time I play, which just makes it even more annoying. 

The Ardat-Yakshi Monastery, the Rachni Mission, and the Citadel Coup spring to mind. 

Eve's location at the STG base is another one I tend to think of. 

Why Liara doesn't represent the asari at the summit  I'll never know, but yeah, that's another one I'd imagine Liara could very easily have had some input for. 

Probably because the closest Liara comes to a position of government authority is that her mother was a traitor?

I'd imagine that she'd have significant power amongst the asari as the Shadow Broker, enough to manipulate them into doing something, Then again, that could be said about her relation to all the species of the galaxy. 

Though how Shepard and Liara would work having someone who depends on keeping their identity a secret to maintain their power represent one of the most powerful governments at a summit involving both the turian Primarch and a Salarian Dalatrass is unknown. 

So you're right, I guess. From the side-lines maybe, but not publically. 

I still think it's strange that the asari don't even bother to turn up. They gain nothing by doing so, and as a species whose image and concept revolves around them being diplomatic peacekeepers, it doesn't appear to make much sense for them to deliberately avoid an important diplomatic meeting that's so significant a turian and salarian are meeting a krogan warlord to talk about how they can work together.

Not that Shepard does much that makes sense either. If her gameplan is to bypass the council, why she deals with Tevos on the matter doesn't make sense either. 

Modifié par The Night Mammoth, 03 février 2013 - 04:33 .

[JBPBRC]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

JBPBRC wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

DirtySHISN0 wrote...

The problem is when you have them both it makes one redundant or both incompetent. If they really wanted them both around they could have found away to handle it better without making either look silly.

I like Liara being the broker, but they (unintentionally?) made her look so bad at it.

True, and there's a whole bunch of opportunities to make her stand out that I notice every time I play, which just makes it even more annoying. 

The Ardat-Yakshi Monastery, the Rachni Mission, and the Citadel Coup spring to mind. 

Eve's location at the STG base is another one I tend to think of. 

Why Liara doesn't represent the asari at the summit  I'll never know, but yeah, that's another one I'd imagine Liara could very easily have had some input for. 

Probably because the closest Liara comes to a position of government authority is that her mother was a traitor?

I'd imagine that she'd have significant power amongst the asari as the Shadow Broker, enough to manipulate them into doing something, Then again, that could be said about her relation to all the species of the galaxy. 

Though how Shepard and Liara would work having someone who depends on keeping their identity a secret represent one of the most powerful governments at a summit involving both the turian Primarch and a Salarian Dalatrass is unknown. 

So I you're right, I guess. From the side-lines maybe, but not publically. 

I still think it's strange that the asari don't even bother to turn up. They gain nothing by doing so, and as a species whose image and concept revolves around them being diplomatic peacekeepers, it doesn't appear to make much sense for them to deliberately avoid an important diplomatic meeting that's so significant a turian and salarian are meeting a krogan warlord to talk about how they can work together.

Not that Shepard does much that makes sense either. If her gameplan is to bypass the council, why she deals with Tevos on the matter doesn't make sense either. 

You'd think that Liara could definitely put some political pressure on the Asari. Shadow Broker and all. If a crime lord from Mos Eisley Omega can have the Asari Councilor at her beck and call for the most insignificant of things, the SB should also have such connections.

[Barquiel]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

I'd imagine that she'd have significant power amongst the asari as the Shadow Broker, enough to manipulate them into doing something, Then again, that could be said about her relation to all the species of the galaxy. 

Though how Shepard and Liara would work having someone who depends on keeping their identity a secret to maintain their power represent one of the most powerful governments at a summit involving both the turian Primarch and a Salarian Dalatrass is unknown. 

So you're right, I guess. From the side-lines maybe, but not publically. 

I still think it's strange that the asari don't even bother to turn up. They gain nothing by doing so, and as a species whose image and concept revolves around them being diplomatic peacekeepers, it doesn't appear to make much sense for them to deliberately avoid an important diplomatic meeting that's so significant a turian and salarian are meeting a krogan warlord to talk about how they can work together.

Not that Shepard does much that makes sense either. If her gameplan is to bypass the council, why she deals with Tevos on the matter doesn't make sense either. 

It doesn't make much sense that they don't send a representative, I agree. But the whole point of the war summit is to cure the krogan, or not. Victus wants some cannon fodder for Palavan. The krogan want a cure. The dalatrass wants to sabotage these efforts. These are all demands the asari (Liara or Tevos) couldn't influence. They didn't really coordinate the war effort or something.

Modifié par Barquiel, 03 février 2013 - 04:49 .

[The Night Mammoth]

JBPBRC wrote...

You'd think that Liara could definitely put some political pressure on the Asari. Shadow Broker and all. If a crime lord from Mos Eisley Omega can have the Asari Councilor at her beck and call for the most insignificant of things, the SB should also have such connections.

Even from the admittedlty hyperbolic language she uses in the DLC, absolutely. 

[The Night Mammoth]

Barquiel wrote...

It doesn't make much sense that they don't send a representative, I agree. But the whole point of the war summit is to cure the krogan, or not. Victus wants some cannon fodder for Palavan. The krogan want a cure. The dalatrass wants to sabotage these efforts. These are all demands the asari (Liara or Tevos) couldn't influence anyway. They didn't really coordinate the war effort or something.

Having someone there would still make more sense than them being absent since it's not presented as a 'cure the genophage' meeting but a war summit to decide how the galaxy coordinates against the Reapers. 

Modifié par The Night Mammoth, 03 février 2013 - 04:55 .

[Barquiel]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

It doesn't make much sense that they don't send a representative, I agree. But the whole point of the war summit is to cure the krogan, or not. Victus wants some cannon fodder for Palavan. The krogan want a cure. The dalatrass wants to sabotage these efforts. These are all demands the asari (Liara or Tevos) couldn't influence anyway. They didn't really coordinate the war effort or something.

Having someone there would still make more sense than them being absent since it's not presented as a 'cure the genophage' meeting but a war summit to decide how the galaxy coordinates against the Reapers. 

I don't disagree with that. It's just my only idea why Bioware wrote it that way.

[Slayer299]

No

[The Night Mammoth]

Barquiel wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

It doesn't make much sense that they don't send a representative, I agree. But the whole point of the war summit is to cure the krogan, or not. Victus wants some cannon fodder for Palavan. The krogan want a cure. The dalatrass wants to sabotage these efforts. These are all demands the asari (Liara or Tevos) couldn't influence anyway. They didn't really coordinate the war effort or something.

Having someone there would still make more sense than them being absent since it's not presented as a 'cure the genophage' meeting but a war summit to decide how the galaxy coordinates against the Reapers. 

I don't disagree with that. It's just my only idea why Bioware wrote it that way.

Sure thing, and yeah, that's the only reason I can think of as well. 

Other than to save time and resources. 

Read a fic once where Aethyta was sent as sort of token support by Tevos, and ended up on the Normandy for a while, leading to plenty of awkward conversations. 

And she shacked up with Wrex. 

[Giga Drill BREAKER]

JBPBRC wrote...

DinoSteve wrote...

Makai81 wrote...

I love Liara but always thought that she always had at least a passive arrogance about Asari supremacy to the other galactic races and especially humans.  For Javik to give her the rude awakening that most of their technological leap over the rest of the galaxy was due to the Protheans leaving them so much of their own technology was actually kind of refreshing.  Not to mention Traynor pretty much schooling her in how to collect intel and manage information.....without an extensive spy network.

It was a tad hypothetical of Javik though as the Protheans got all their tech from the cycle before hand.

You mean hypocritical? Anyway, Javik wasn't saying it was a bad thing, he was simply stating this is how the Asari have an advantage over others, and that the Protheans did the same thing to dominate their cycle.

Any negative connotations come from either Shepard, or though the player's own knowledge of the lore and perception of the Asari as a whole.

Yeah I did, goddamn spell check.

[o Ventus]

David7204 wrote...

Liara's reaction to her homeworld being destroyed was completely cool and professional. She's ready to go on the very next mission.

Because almost wanting to kill Javik is "cool and professional".