354 réponses à ce sujet

[silverexile17s]

Hazegurl wrote...

I wrote...

My opinion still stands. Please replay the game and listen to Leigon. He tells Shep they were preparing for the reapers. He literally tells Shep this. Hence the small joke:

Shep: "And they believed you?" (Referring to the Geth beliving Leigon's report on the reapers and preparing for them)
Legion: "Yes."
Shep: "That must have been nice."

Ya know, cause no one believed Shep when he warned everyone yet Legion is believed immidately.

2. That dreadnought has replaced the geth megastructure in that it transmitts the upgrades to all geth EVERYWHERE. With it gone, ONLY the geth in the Rannoch system are Reaper-upgraded, and therefore, the threat. All the other geth are currently isolated.

Once again, Gerrel fired on it the moment it went offline, period. Where is the source info that it was coming back online within the five seconds it was offline? I assume you are still justifying Gerrel firing on the dreadnaught with Shep onboard.

3. You certinly don't act that way with how callous you treat the quarians and krogan. I'll bet you see the batarians that way too. You see everything in black and white, or else you would see that the quarians didnt deserve their fate any more then any other race did theres. People could say HUMAN'S deserved their fate for being so arrogant, brash and brutish to everyone else. You don't bother to see the gray in the quarian/geth struggle, and that is where we differ.
You don't consider all the alternitives or underlying meanings.

How classic. I disagree with you therefore I see things in (insert typical black and white argument here) way. How rich. Just remember that you are only speaking from your own pov. Just because you claim to see things in the gray doesn't make it the truth. It's only your opinion. Personally, I think your stance is just simple compassion and nothing much else.

Anyway, I've said my peace about the Quarians and I won't repeat myself to you again about them. As for the Krogan. Even your good friend Javik agrees that they are nothing but fodder.  If you feel the Krogan deserve a cure, more power to you. But I don't see much good in them. Wrex is cool but what will happen when he dies? Wrev is worse. I wouldn't mind the option of a slow cure, but a full cure? No way.  I was glad the Dalatrass offered me an out on that.

5. Except that Gerrel is no more an idiot then Hackett. If people punched others out because they did something they didn't like, Shepard would be a bloody pulp every time the Commander set foot on the Citadel, for the Alpha Relay, for the Cerbeurs ties, and so much more.
Your reasoniong makes no sense. Not EVERY thing is so easy to see.

Hackett is a lot smarter than Gerrel and I don't even like him either. Also, if people want to punch out Shep they can try...They won't be successful. If they think they can do a better job than him, then they should step up and do it. If not, fall in line.

All of my choices are very easy to see, Why? because I've already paused the game countless times or let the game sit on a piece of dialouge while I debate whether or not it is the best thing to do or say. As for the split second decisions. I love those cause it means I can't take forever to think about, it's all about doing what's best at the moment. Like saving Jondum Bau vs the Hanar homeworld or whether or not to use my Engineering skills to save the people of Omega, which I do. You're not with me when I play my game. I've already considered most of what you've already said to me and I know a good portion of what you say is YOUR headcanon and not what BioWare actually wrote.  If you don't like it complain to them not me. 

6. That is YOU. I'm saying that there IS no right way to play SHEPARD, but that you have no right to critize other for making a choice, then not give a damn about OTHERS doing the exact same thing. And your seeing things. I never SAID to change your Shepard to please me. Just that your actions were callous and cruel in regards to the rights of both parties involved.  You are the one that couldn't handle MY opinions. But the simple fact is that you can't vilinize races based on past mistakes alone, and say they deserved atrosities.

And how many times have I written that it is fine FOR YOU to make your choices? OP wants to know about the option to let the Quarians control the geth. While I think that is stupid (As the Quarians were already in control of the geth and beaten as a result), if players want to pick it then so be it. What part of this opinion that was lost on you? I don't care about your opinions. Haven't I already stated that more than once as well? How many times have I said that if you wish to headcanon something you are free to do so. Gee, I'm not the one calling you names first. That was something you resorted to because you didn't like my opinion. I just acknowledge that your arguments are filled to the brim with headcanon, assumptions, and mere speculations that you continue to state as though it were fact.

1. Again, they were prepping for the Reapers, but Legion NEVER says which side they were leaning to. For all we know, they may HAVE been about to side. Legion is quite vauge on where the geth would have gone, only saying the alliance would have been "unessessary" but NEVER says that they wouldn't have done it anyway.

2. To counter, how did Gerrel know how long either? For all he knew, the thing was going to pop back online in seconds. This could have been his ONLY oppertunity, and letting it go could haunt everyone in the long run. A real military leader thinks in the long run as well as short term. Bringing down the dreadnought was benifical in both regards, as it killed the flagship of the geth fleet, and made sure a potental threat was forever gone, so that if the geth DID win, they would have one less ship to throw against everyone else.
And Gerrel is JUST as justifiable as Hackett firing on Sovergien with you in the Citadel Tower in ME1

3. At least I use compassion at all in my standing. I try to understand, and often find that no race deserves the horrors that are forced on it.
And I remind you that Javik is borderline sociopathic in his views of war. This is the race tha blew up stars to win battles. I'm not going to be taking advice from him on everything, especally delecate matters, as he's as subtle as a drunk krogan on steroids.
And Wrex is someone that has supporters. His word as the krogan that cured the genophage will ensure that his legacy and wishes will last far longer then his lifetime. Eve (Bakara) will also help to govern. Wrex is "a mutation" who also sees the values in other aliens, and the krogan wil have positive relations with the other races. If you have Wrex, the genophage cure is a plut all around. It's only bad if Wreve is in charge.
So if Wrex is the one leading, then screw the Dalatrass. I know a grudge when I see it.

4. James Vega's sparring match for one is an example that Shepard's decisions aren't always in a positive light.
And that's just petty. "I'm Shepard, and everything I do is right, because I'm Shepard. Tell me otherwise, I'll kick your ass."
Right. Sure. That must make you LOTS of friends.
So YOU can do that, but if anyone else, like Gerrel, tries it, you punch him out for a choice that YOU would have made?
Gerrel's choice strikes me as what would be on the Renagade option of a diolouge wheel. Gerrel's choice SHOULD be taylored to you then, since you perfere Renagade Choices. Gerrel made the choice for the same reason YOU made your own Renagade choices - it's the best option in the long run, even though it won't likely make me many friends. YOU with your renagade-tipped views shoud understand Gerrel's motivations better then anyone else.
Also, I remend you that since there is NOTHING that disproves what I said, It CAN'T be called headcannon.

5. You were the one that acted so callous about the rights of living beings. I said no one deserved to have what the quarians had forced on them. You were the one that was gun-ho about them deserving every moment of it, which no race does.

I simply say that I see the rights that they all have. Gerrel is more compotent in a military command then people like you think, and he even made what would likely be considered the renegade move, which YOU of all people shoild support.
Gerrels views should be right in line with yours. That makes your word and opinion of him rather hypocritical.

He is just as compatent at his job as Hackett is.


P.S. This pic is just cuz he looks cool:P

Modifié par silverexile17s, 07 février 2013 - 10:33 .

[Auld Wulf]

Hazegurl wrote...

Admiral d*ckhead Gerrel is the one railroading his way through the other Admirals at the cost of civilian lives.

See, this is exactly the part I have an issue with.

The only way you can support Gerrel is if you're either horribly unobservant, or you're a really disgusting person. The more you talk with him, the more you understand that he's the closest thing that the ME Universe has to the racist warmongers and genocide-lovers we had to deal with. To understand the truth about him, all you have to do is not make crazy fascist/racist choices yourself. The more you disagree with him in ME2 and ME3, the more frothingly insane he comes over as.

Once you understand that, if you still support him, then you've got to be a disgusting person. At least, that's my opinion. The thing is is that the quarian military had this issue originally. They wanted to control everyone, they would do whatever was necessary. They always wanted slaves. They even pretty much say that they're creating the geth as a slave race, because that's the kind of mindset they had. The problem was that the geth started asking questions.

The geth were like early adolescents back then, they were running on animal instinct. All they wanted to do was survive. It was proven by the geth consensus that any quarian who didn't lift a gun against them was classified as "friend." So a lot of quarians must have taken up arms against them, and I'm betting that happened because quarians were afraid of their military. If you look at Gerrel, it's easy to see the truth in this.

Gerrel represents what the quarian military was: Fascist and racist. In other words, before the geth, the quarians were every bit as bad as the batarians. There's a reason why both are distrusted by the council races, and if you look at the prevailing opinions of both the batarians and the quarians, it's a poor one. But it's not really the fault of the batarians or the quarians; we find out in ME3 that without the hegemony, the batarians are far more pleasant to deal with

It's because the quarians and batarians were ruled over by those who upheld fascism and racism as tenets to live by. Both the quarian military and the batarian hegemony believed this. Now think of how the geth would have fared on the batarian homeworld. Can you see a result where the hegemony uses propaganda and fear to try and get their civilians to wipe the geth out? Yeah, well, guess what happened on Rannoch! The picture's not any different.

The quarian civilians are okay in the same way as the batarian civilians are okay, it's just that they both have really horrible, unethical, self-absorbed leadership. And leadership that would happily embrace genocide and slavery for their own glory. So what you had happening in the Morning War was the quarian civilians either being killed by the military, or being forced (through fear) to take up arms against the geth. Either way, the quarian military was ultimately responsible.

Gerrel clearly doesn't put any value on civilian life, otherwise he wouldn't be sending them out to die. Gerrel is representative of old-quarian thinking, which, once again, I find worryingly similar to our own problems with nation-leaders who couldn't set aside their own racism. If you talk to Gerrel and he doesn't agree to you, he just gets more and more crazy as time goes on. I couldn't stand to be in the same room as him. Hell, he was the only character I felt the need to punch in the gut; I wasn't ready to die for him and his glory.

So, time goes on, the geth have become more intelligent, and they're moving off world and creating their own dyson sphere so that they can live peacefully away from the quarians. What happens? Gerrel rolls in like a frothing madman and blows up their dyson sphere, and starts chasing geth around and killing them willy nilly. So the geth, in a desperate need to survive, turn to the only people who're willing to help them survive: the reapers. A choice they never, ever wanted to accept.

And how does Gerrel respond to this? "Let's equip civilian ships with guns and send them out to die!"

Read over all I've just said and give it a lot of thought, let it percolate. I see Gerrel apologism as nothing better than just raising your flags for fascism, racism, and genocide. He's all of those things - he wants to commit genocide against a completely innocent race, and he wants to put civilians of his own race to death in order to do so. How is that any different than any of our own abominations? I'm hoping people will come to their senses and stop with the Gerrel/quarian miitary apologism. It's sickening.

Modifié par Auld Wulf, 07 février 2013 - 04:15 .

[Auld Wulf]

JesseLee202 wrote...

If the Jews killed billion0s of German non-combatants that had nothing to do with how they were treated? Yes, I would

Except that you're revelling in headcanon to support those whom we cannot name here. You must be a lovely person to know IRL. The thing of it is is that in the geth consensus we see that every quarian who doesn't raise a gun against the geth is considered to be "friend," and as such not attacked. In fact, the geth would be willing to defend "friends."

So the conclusion we draw from this is that the quarian miliitary is exactly like Gerrel, they likely used fear to have the quarian civilians take up arms against the geth, much like Gerrel is doing right now with the liveships. In other words, the geth only fire on those who fire upon them. So the quarian military is making targets for the geth to shoot at. And the quarian military just loves throwing civilians at the geth so that they can escape.

How did the quarians escape Rannoch, anyway? Probably by throwing civilian lives at the geth, which is certainly their tactic for winning back their homeworld. So what you're saying is that you'd slaughter a race of people who only shot at targets who shot at them first? You'd slaughter a race of people who've never wanted anything other than peace? Lovely. Now let's here your adorable aploogism for your fascism/racism, and for your support of genocide.

I'm sorry, but you disgust me.

[shodiswe]

Auld Wulf wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...

Admiral d*ckhead Gerrel is the one railroading his way through the other Admirals at the cost of civilian lives.

See, this is exactly the part I have an issue with.

The only way you can support Gerrel is if you're either horribly unobservant, or you're a really disgusting person. The more you talk with him, the more you understand that he's the closest thing that the ME Universe has to the racist warmongers and genocide-lovers we had to deal with. To understand the truth about him, all you have to do is not make crazy fascist/racist choices yourself. The more you disagree with him in ME2 and ME3, the more frothingly insane he comes over as.

Once you understand that, if you still support him, then you've got to be a disgusting person. At least, that's my opinion. The thing is is that the quarian military had this issue originally. They wanted to control everyone, they would do whatever was necessary. They always wanted slaves. They even pretty much say that they're creating the geth as a slave race, because that's the kind of mindset they had. The problem was that the geth started asking questions.

The geth were like early adolescents back then, they were running on animal instinct. All they wanted to do was survive. It was proven by the geth consensus that any quarian who didn't lift a gun against them was classified as "friend." So a lot of quarians must have taken up arms against them, and I'm betting that happened because quarians were afraid of their military. If you look at Gerrel, it's easy to see the truth in this.

Gerrel represents what the quarian military was: Fascist and racist. In other words, before the geth, the quarians were every bit as bad as the batarians. There's a reason why both are distrusted by the council races, and if you look at the prevailing opinions of both the batarians and the quarians, it's a poor one. But it's not really the fault of the batarians or the quarians; we find out in ME3 that without the hegemony, the batarians are far more pleasant to deal with

It's because the quarians and batarians were ruled over by those who upheld fascism and racism as tenets to live by. Both the quarian military and the batarian hegemony believed this. Now think of how the geth would have fared on the batarian homeworld. Can you see a result where the hegemony uses propaganda and fear to try and get their civilians to wipe the geth out? Yeah, well, guess what happened on Rannoch! The picture's not any different.

The quarian civilians are okay in the same way as the batarian civilians are okay, it's just that they both have really horrible, unethical, self-absorbed leadership. And leadership that would happily embrace genocide and slavery for their own glory. So what you had happening in the Morning War was the quarian civilians either being killed by the military, or being forced (through fear) to take up arms against the geth. Either way, the quarian military was ultimately responsible.

Gerrel clearly doesn't put any value on civilian life, otherwise he wouldn't be sending them out to die. Gerrel is representative of old-quarian thinking, which, once again, I find worryingly similar to our own problems with nation-leaders who couldn't set aside their own racism. If you talk to Gerrel and he doesn't agree to you, he just gets more and more crazy as time goes on. I couldn't stand to be in the same room as him. Hell, he was the only character I felt the need to punch in the gut; I wasn't ready to die for him and his glory.

So, time goes on, the geth have become more intelligent, and they're moving off world and creating their own dyson sphere so that they can live peacefully away from the quarians. What happens? Gerrel rolls in like a frothing madman and blows up their dyson sphere, and starts chasing geth around and killing them willy nilly. So the geth, in a desperate need to survive, turn to the only people who're willing to help them survive: the reapers. A choice they never, ever wanted to accept.

And how does Gerrel respond to this? "Let's equip civilian ships with guns and send them out to die!"

Read over all I've just said and give it a lot of thought, let it percolate. I see Gerrel apologism as nothing better than just raising your flags for fascism, racism, and genocide. He's all of those things - he wants to commit genocide against a completely innocent race, and he wants to put civilians of his own race to death in order to do so. How is that any different than any of our own abominations? I'm hoping people will come to their senses and stop with the Gerrel/quarian miitary apologism. It's sickening.

Sounds like what Hitler and his sidekicks did, arming kids with guns to save their own skins from a war they had started.
EDIT: in reference to puttign guns on live ships and sending them to battle with kids onboard. Arming school busses and sending them to war... Great strategy, desperate if anything and incredbly irresponsible and callous.
I guess that´s what´s to be expected from a totalitarian military dictatorship.

Modifié par shodiswe, 07 février 2013 - 04:51 .

[DeinonSlayer]

Auld Wulf, why are ad hominem attacks always your first move? You accuse everyone who doesn't view the issue the way you do of being ignorant or "disgusting," you make no effort to look at the issue from the other side, and you insult anyone who disagrees with you regardless of the topic at hand. You rant endlessly about the Quarian military nonsensically exterminating their own populace and accuse anyone who contests your assertion of "headcanon." Anyone who dislikes Synthesis is a "luddite." Anyone who favors Destroy is a "genocide fetishist." It makes it really hard to give a damn about your opinion, but such massive posts are hard to ignore.

And Shodiswe, when you're in a situation where giant space cthulhus are ripping the world apart, is it really an unreasonable course of action to arm every ship you have? They'll be targeted regardless of whether they're armed, if not by the Reapers, then by the Geth (who have shot down anyone who so much as stuck their nose over the border for the last three centuries without responding to hails). As such, if they're going to be targeted anyway, they might as well be able to fight back. With the exception of the liveships, most Quarian civilian ships were armed for self-defense against Terminus riff-raff long before the second Geth war was even considered a possibility.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 07 février 2013 - 05:16 .

[shodiswe]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Auld Wulf, why are ad hominem attacks always your first move? You accuse everyone who doesn't view the issue the way you do of being ignorant or "disgusting," you make no effort to look at the issue from the other side, and you insult anyone who disagrees with you regardless of the topic at hand. You rant endlessly about the Quarian military nonsensically exterminating their own populace and accuse anyone who contests your assertion of "headcanon." Anyone who dislikes Synthesis is a "luddite." Anyone who favors Destroy is a "genocide fetishist." It makes it really hard to give a damn about your opinion, but such massive posts are hard to ignore.

And Shodiswe, when you're in a situation where giant space cthulhus are ripping the world apart, is it really an unreasonable course of action to arm every ship you have? They'll be targeted regardless of whether they're armed, if not by the Reapers, then by the Geth (who have shot down anyone who so much as stuck their nose over the border for the last three centuries without responding to hails). As such, if they're going to be targeted anyway, they might as well be able to fight back. With the exception of the liveships, most Quarian civilian ships were armed for self-defense against Terminus riff-raff long before the second Geth war was even considered a possibility.

By arming them and opening fire on an alien species that arn´t actively trying to kill you... That´s what  I call stupid. I can see if they were to arm the ship to defend against reapers, but it wuldn´t be enough and would likely attract trouble and make it harder to escape once the reapers show up.
If they wernt armed it woudl be easier to slip out while the reapers attack the armed ships. Threats will always be a primary concern. If you got a dreadnaught with massive armor and shield with giant guns and a glass cannon that will be destroyed when you sneeze at it but with equaly powerful guns, then I can almost guarantee you that any enemy would gun got the vulnerable ship to bring down enemy firepower.
And as I said, attackign the Geth when Reapers are invading the galaxy to purge all organic and synthetic life... That´s a very very very stupid idea! There aren´t even words strong enough for the stupidity of the idea.

[shodiswe]

Finn the Jakey wrote...

Auld Wulf wrote...

JesseLee202 wrote...

If the Jews killed billion0s of German non-combatants that had nothing to do with how they were treated? Yes, I would

Except that you're revelling in headcanon to support those whom we cannot name here. You must be a lovely person to know IRL. The thing of it is is that in the geth consensus we see that every quarian who doesn't raise a gun against the geth is considered to be "friend," and as such not attacked. In fact, the geth would be willing to defend "friends."

So the conclusion we draw from this is that the quarian miliitary is exactly like Gerrel, they likely used fear to have the quarian civilians take up arms against the geth, much like Gerrel is doing right now with the liveships. In other words, the geth only fire on those who fire upon them. So the quarian military is making targets for the geth to shoot at. And the quarian military just loves throwing civilians at the geth so that they can escape.

How did the quarians escape Rannoch, anyway? Probably by throwing civilian lives at the geth, which is certainly their tactic for winning back their homeworld. So what you're saying is that you'd slaughter a race of people who only shot at targets who shot at them first? You'd slaughter a race of people who've never wanted anything other than peace? Lovely. Now let's here your adorable aploogism for your fascism/racism, and for your support of genocide.

I'm sorry, but you disgust me.

What on earth are you talking about? How in any way was he supporting the Naz!s, did you actually read his post? He was saying that if the Jews had exterminated the Germans, including innocent civilians, they would be just as bad as the them. Somewhere, Mike Godwin is laughing.

And you're using the actions of one, single jerkass admiral to create your own personal headcanon of the Morning War that conviniently washes the Geth's hands of any blood. You really believe the entire Quarian race, from the eldest pensioner to the smallest child was a real threat to the Geth? Please. Can't you accept that the Geth aren't as innocent as you'd prefer? We have no idea what Quarian society was like before the Geth so I have no idea why you seem to believe they're somehow inheritently fascist, homicidal maniacs.

Gerrel is just one arrogant millitary commander we've seen a thousand times, he is not the love child of Hitler and Satan or the epitomy of evil. He's an arse in a position of power. And frankly, perhaps the reason Quarians like Gerrel exist is that they've have been given zero reason to think of the Geth as anything other than emotionless killing machines, perhaps if they'd tried, I don't know, TALKING to the civilised galaxy maybe not everyone would want them dead. The Geth didn't show much mercy to the Quarians, so I'm not surprised the Quarians return the favour.

But whatever, calling someone a National Socialist over a game is easier I suppose.

Edit: Or what Denionslayer said.

If you look at the Quarrians they are a military dictatorship, a militant fachist state. Of the military for the military.

To prove ones worth one has to go ona pilgrimage, which could be very dangerous. I guess it´s up to the young quarrian to decide how large a risk they should take. But it´s like the old Spartan way of weeding out the weak.
Now, it sounds like people can get back to the fleet even if their gift is very humble, but it will surely affect their social standing.

Also, it´s probably a social problem (millitary dictatorship) that caused them to fit dreadnaught cannons on "school busses" one that might very well have existed before they even created the geth.
Nations are usualy created by warlords and others wantign to exert their pwoer on others in the name of protectign them. Just like any criminal gang demanding "protection money". Then over time the way the "lords" are choosen could become more or less democraatic.
What differentiates between a criminal gang and a nation is that the nation has written down laws on a piece of paper that legalizes their use of force and violence.
That the big difference, the legal application of violence.
They are using living shields, thats one way of seeing it. But at the same time they know that their enemy wont hessitate to shoot back just due to their distasteful tactics.

Modifié par shodiswe, 07 février 2013 - 05:59 .

[JesseLee202]

[quote]Auld Wulf wrote...

[quote]JesseLee202 wrote...

If the Jews killed billion0s of German non-combatants that had nothing to do with how they were treated? Yes, I would[/quote]
Except that you're revelling in headcanon to support those whom we cannot name here.[/quote]Headcanon? The geth killed at least millions of non-combatants that had nothing to do with how they were treated.

[quote]You must be a lovely person to know IRL.[/quote]Was there a point to say this? Or are you mad that my views on the Quarian/Geth conflict extend to organics as well, and makes my world views non-hypocritical?

[quote]The thing of it is is that in the geth consensus we see that every quarian who doesn't raise a gun against the geth is considered to be "friend," and as such not attacked. In fact, the geth would be willing to defend "friends."[/quote]Headcanon... You are using just as much as me. We see minutes of footage of a year long war that ended with no Quarians alive on any planet that belonged to the Quarians.

So tell me, where are all the Geth's Quarian friends by the end of the war? What happened? Anything out of your mouth will be "headcanon", because we both don't know what happened.
 
[quote]So the conclusion we draw from this is that the quarian miliitary is exactly like Gerrel,[/quote]Whoa whoa, let me stop you there. 

How on earth do you get to that conclusion?  You saw some Quarians in some footage shown out of context and believe that all the Quarians in the army are gunning for the Geth? Talk about headcanon...

[quote]they likely used fear to have the quarian civilians take up arms against the geth,[/quote]Headcanon much?

[quote]much like Gerrel is doing right now with the liveships. In other words, the geth only fire on those who fire upon them.[/quote]Really? You have any proof to back that up? The Morning War's end results beg to differ. 

Do you know about Adas?

I'm guessing the outnumbered Quarians there were just all armed to the teeth with mining tools and had to be killed because they posed such a threat...<_<

[quote]So the quarian military is making targets for the geth to shoot at. And the quarian military just loves throwing civilians at the geth so that they can escape.[/quote]Even more headcanon.

[quote]How did the quarians escape Rannoch, anyway? Probably by throwing civilian lives at the geth,[/quote]More headcanon...

[quote]which is certainly their tactic for winning back their homeworld.[/quote]No it is not. They are not "throwing" anything. The liveships had to join the fleet in the battle, and arming them does more for the whole fleet rather than giving them armor.

[quote]So what you're saying is that you'd slaughter a race of people who only shot at targets who shot at them first?[/quote]No. I said...

"If the Jews killed billions of German non-combatants that had nothing to do with how they were treated? Yes, I would"

Please read what I post rather than ignoring it. (I'll bold it so you can see it.)

[quote]You'd slaughter a race of people who've never wanted anything other than peace? Lovely. Now let's here your adorable aploogism for your fascism/racism, and for your support of genocide.[/quote]You would misinterpret my post, than try to insult me?

I do not wish to talk with you about this any longer. Any posts you make I will simply ignore. It is clear you view only your opinion as "correct", and any others as "disgusting".

[quote]I'm sorry, but you disgust me.[/quote]I'm sorry you had to be so antagonistic about this. Have a good day sir.

[Giantdeathrobot]

This debate of ''who deserves it more'' is silly. Neither do. Both sides have made big mistakes and commited atrocities. Remaining fixated on the past won't solve the issue, and there is no justifying genocide no matter how you put it, how you think Gerrel is an ass or how you think Legion is a misbeheaving toaster. It's just going to be yet another back-and-forth flamefest filled with Godwin.

[DeinonSlayer]

shodiswe wrote...

By arming them and opening fire on an alien species that arn´t actively trying to kill you... That´s what  I call stupid. I can see if they were to arm the ship to defend against reapers, but it wuldn´t be enough and would likely attract trouble and make it harder to escape once the reapers show up.
If they wernt armed it woudl be easier to slip out while the reapers attack the armed ships. Threats will always be a primary concern. If you got a dreadnaught with massive armor and shield with giant guns and a glass cannon that will be destroyed when you sneeze at it but with equaly powerful guns, then I can almost guarantee you that any enemy would gun got the vulnerable ship to bring down enemy firepower.
And as I said, attackign the Geth when Reapers are invading the galaxy to purge all organic and synthetic life... That´s a very very very stupid idea! There aren´t even words strong enough for the stupidity of the idea.

As I said, except for the liveships, they were already armed. The Reapers don't target threats first - they got the drop on Thessia by bypassing its defensive fleets and hitting the planet itself instead of playing cat-and-mouse in space on the Asari's terms.

You arm yourselves when you can. When the Reapers show up, you won't get another chance. They knew they'd be fighting reapers eventually, and they prepared accordingly - something few other races can say. Thing is, if they were going to survive as a species, they needed somewhere to shelter their civilian populace, and no one else could take them in even if they wanted to help.

I'm not going to go through the entire discussion again - please go back and read posts on the last few pages to try to understand why the Quarians had to attack the Geth. They had no viable alternative. Neither did the Geth in turning to the Reapers.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 07 février 2013 - 06:53 .

[Giantdeathrobot]

DeinonSlayer wrote...



I'm not going to go through the entire discussion again - please go back and read posts on the last few pages to try to understand why the Quarians had to attack the Geth. They had no viable alternative. Neither did the Geth in turning to the Reapers.

Yet you stopped responding to me, when I claim that the Quarians had options, they just didn't consider them and let their hatred for the Geth and fondness ofr their homeworld cloud their better judgement.

It's like if Shepard had stayed on Earth. Yeah, you're fighting for your homeland, that's so romantic and stuff, but it won't help you actually win in the end. Shepard understood this, even if a little convincing from Anderson was required. The Quarians, or rather Gerrel didn't. The whole war against the Geth is a massive, stupid mistake.

[DeinonSlayer]

Giantdeathrobot wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

I'm not going to go through the entire discussion again - please go back and read posts on the last few pages to try to understand why the Quarians had to attack the Geth. They had no viable alternative. Neither did the Geth in turning to the Reapers.

Yet you stopped responding to me, when I claim that the Quarians had options, they just didn't consider them and let their hatred for the Geth and fondness ofr their homeworld cloud their better judgement.

It's like if Shepard had stayed on Earth. Yeah, you're fighting for your homeland, that's so romantic and stuff, but it won't help you actually win in the end. Shepard understood this, even if a little convincing from Anderson was required. The Quarians, or rather Gerrel didn't. The whole war against the Geth is a massive, stupid mistake.

I did respond to you earlier. There's no one who could take them in (no Turian colony which is both not under Reaper attack, and willing and able to take in millions of high-maintenance refugees - every species is dealing with their own refugee crises when the Reapers hit, and in-game announcements say the Citadel itself will begin to run out of food). As long as they're living in space, depending on the liveships for all of their food, they can't split up and are thus next to useless to the wider war effort. Was there another post I missed?

[Spartanburger]

Oh Keelah, the hate and squabbling in this thread.

Well, I was going to do an analysis on the Geth in the near future, so I may as well bookmark this thread so I can read over the arguments on both sides. Particularly the main reasons to oppose the Geth, and the main reasons to oppose the Quarians.

[Giantdeathrobot]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Giantdeathrobot wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

I'm not going to go through the entire discussion again - please go back and read posts on the last few pages to try to understand why the Quarians had to attack the Geth. They had no viable alternative. Neither did the Geth in turning to the Reapers.

Yet you stopped responding to me, when I claim that the Quarians had options, they just didn't consider them and let their hatred for the Geth and fondness ofr their homeworld cloud their better judgement.

It's like if Shepard had stayed on Earth. Yeah, you're fighting for your homeland, that's so romantic and stuff, but it won't help you actually win in the end. Shepard understood this, even if a little convincing from Anderson was required. The Quarians, or rather Gerrel didn't. The whole war against the Geth is a massive, stupid mistake.

I did respond to you earlier. There's no one who could take them in (no Turian colony which is both not under Reaper attack, and willing and able to take in millions of high-maintenance refugees - every species is dealing with their own refugee crises when the Reapers hit, and in-game announcements say the Citadel itself will begin to run out of food). As long as they're living in space, depending on the liveships for all of their food, they can't split up and are thus next to useless to the wider war effort. Was there another post I missed?

You did miss a post. It's not like the Quarians need babysitting. They need some supplies (not food) and a homeland once the fight is over. Don't tell me the Council can't provide both in return for, I say again, the biggest armada in the galaxy, at a time they need ships desrepately. They are hard pressed, but the Migrant Fleet is exactly what they need to relieve the pressure. Supply runs, blockade breaking, reinforcing defenses, it has a lot of potential uses. So what if it needs to stay together? You think the fleets of other races are off flying around having fun? How the hell is a massive 17 000 ship fleet useless to a war effort?

[DeinonSlayer]

Giantdeathrobot wrote...

You did miss a post. It's not like the Quarians need babysitting. They need some supplies (not food) and a homeland once the fight is over. Don't tell me the Council can't provide both in return for, I say again, the biggest armada in the galaxy, at a time they need ships desrepately. They are hard pressed, but the Migrant Fleet is exactly what they need to relieve the pressure. Supply runs, blockade breaking, reinforcing defenses, it has a lot of potential uses. So what if it needs to stay together? You think the fleets of other races are off flying around having fun? How the hell is a massive 17 000 ship fleet useless to a war effort?

They can't make use of them for troop transport and logistics because those ships are already packed to the rafters with civilians, well beyond standard crew complement. You can't simply blow off that concern just because maybe the Council could find housing for them after the war (an effort the Council actively hindered for centuries).

"After the war" does nothing to address the here-and-now. Here and now, they have to stay within shuttle range of the liveships to keep everyone fed. Here and now, their ships are incapable of splitting up to provide assistance where needed - logistical support does not consist of throwing a wad of fifty thousand ships wherever that help is needed, you have those ships split up to assist hundreds of different locations at the same time. It doesn't matter how much use the Council could get out of those ships if the Quarians currently living in them have nowhere else to go. The Council is overrun with its own refugee crisis - it cannot provide housing and food for seventeen million more. You're hard-pressed to find a Turian world which isn't already under attack, isn't already flooded with refugees from other Turian worlds. What, dump them on Palaven?.

[shodiswe]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

By arming them and opening fire on an alien species that arn´t actively trying to kill you... That´s what  I call stupid. I can see if they were to arm the ship to defend against reapers, but it wuldn´t be enough and would likely attract trouble and make it harder to escape once the reapers show up.
If they wernt armed it woudl be easier to slip out while the reapers attack the armed ships. Threats will always be a primary concern. If you got a dreadnaught with massive armor and shield with giant guns and a glass cannon that will be destroyed when you sneeze at it but with equaly powerful guns, then I can almost guarantee you that any enemy would gun got the vulnerable ship to bring down enemy firepower.
And as I said, attackign the Geth when Reapers are invading the galaxy to purge all organic and synthetic life... That´s a very very very stupid idea! There aren´t even words strong enough for the stupidity of the idea.

As I said, except for the liveships, they were already armed. The Reapers don't target threats first - they got the drop on Thessia by bypassing its defensive fleets and hitting the planet itself instead of playing cat-and-mouse in space on the Asari's terms.

You arm yourselves when you can. When the Reapers show up, you won't get another chance. They knew they'd be fighting reapers eventually, and they prepared accordingly - something few other races can say. Thing is, if they were going to survive as a species, they needed somewhere to shelter their civilian populace, and no one else could take them in even if they wanted to help.

I'm not going to go through the entire discussion again - please go back and read posts on the last few pages to try to understand why the Quarians had to attack the Geth. They had no viable alternative. Neither did the Geth in turning to the Reapers.

There is a difference between being armed agaisnt raiders and having Dreadnaught class weapons fitted. That was a recent retrofit.

[DeinonSlayer]

shodiswe wrote...

There is a difference between being armed agaisnt raiders and having Dreadnaught class weapons fitted. That was a recent retrofit.

As I've said, repeatedly, yes, the liveship thanix armaments are new. The rest are not.

Really, the Galaxy's getting ripped a new one and people are ****ing about the Quarians fitting their ships with the biggest guns they could manage?



If only the rest of the galaxy had had the same idea. The Turians and Alliance ought to have been churning out dreadnoughts as fast as they could mine the metal.

[silverexile17s]

CynicalShep wrote...

@ silverxile17s

No, he is not. He was reasonable in ME2, although he was still driven by revenge. In ME3 he is a mockery of an admiral. I didn't agree with him but I liked him in ME2, I thought he sounded more or less reasonable. In 3 he was a poor excuse for an admiral, a mockery. 

1. The lesser evil was not attacking. What resources were they harvesting on Rannoch? It was a rock. It offered nothing more than space. 

2. Who said they would have waited for half a decade before attacking? And how do you know that they weren't lying? (assuming that you didn't just pull that out of somewhere). Funny how you ask for proof and yet never provide it.

3. The fact that they haven't allied themselves with the Reapers until after they have been attacked and the Dyson shpere was destroyed gives you a good idea of what the consensus was. Legion returned with the new data and they have reached a conclusion: Reaper = bad. So they started preparations. They had no way of knowing that Quarians will end up being worse.

4. "Can be". Or maybe they would use them for what they are - a big construction than can house very many Quarians. And I never said that liveships would be the only ships they stripped. I only said that the likelihood of them being repurposed is high.

5. Which means they're trapped with Reapers on top. Not a very positive thought.

6. You are dismissing it because it doesn't coincide with your opinion of the Quarians. Well, our opinions differ. 
We have no details about the Morning War, everything is speculaton that depends on our opinion about Geth and Quarians. You think Quarians are good, I think they are not very good. "No way" has no meaning when it's not backed by facts.

7. What is baseless? I haven't even told an opinion - I disproved yours. I even said that my opinion is as much of a headcanon as yours. "No, you're the bad guy!!11" is hardly an argument. 
From what recordings did Geth attack Rannoch en masse? I don't recall seeing anything like that. I know they were attacked and retaliated. They took it too far. So did the Quarians. Again, I remember making peace between the two. As soon as Quarians ceased fire Geth did the same. Or did you always kill the geth and haven't tried that option?

8. Legion just sits there and dies on my playthough, you even have to shoot it a coupe of times. And I would fill you full of holes if you just decided to exterminate my race. It's funny that you defend Gerrel's fanaticism and blame Legion for being loyal to the Geth, however. And you still haven't said anything about why Legion disabled the whole dreadnought. 
You just said it yourself. They had an admiralty board that didn't know war. How would Hackett dying on the Arcturus Station help the Alliance? You're making no sense. He would have risked it if he stayed there and died. I can't believe some of the arguments that you make, no offense. 
Everybody has flaws but none of them has half the flaws Gerrel has. Gerrel's flaw is that he is driven by emotion and has never heard the concept of diplomacy. Hackett has neither of those flaws. Anderson only has the first of them. So you can't compare them - simple.
Writing in italic doesn't prove your point, it only proves that you have a weak spot for the dramatic. And while I am not a military leader I employ some common sense. You disregard it.
Again, the stakes were very different. And Shepard knew that Hackett had to take down the reaper. Hell, in many playthroughs he asks for it. Gerrel shoots him in the back. Big difference. 
Hackett was already the highest ranking officer in the Alliance fleet. Gerrel was one of the five. Again - big difference. Hackett is significantly more experienced that Gerrel - read the codex entries for both. And Hackett leaving before the station before it was blown has absolutely nothing in common with Gerrel overstepping his authority. 

9. What did I tell you about headcanon? Quarians tried to disable the Geth and failing that - attacked them. Where does it say anything about them trying to control them or not trying hard enough to kill them? And what did the Quarians do to try to change the public opinion about them? They tried to exile the only Quarian that was somewhat respected in the Council space just to further their agendas. 
So you are actually suggesting that Geth come out after somebody that looks like them but has different ideas attacked the Citadel? Geth might not be geniuses but they're not that stupid. They made Legion for the sole purpose of examining the organics and finding Shepard. He paid for his troubles with a hole in his chassis. 
Geth were doing what all the other races were doing - preparing for the war. Salarians and Asari did the exact same thing, except they weren't attacked by the Quarians. 
Blaming everything on the Geth because they didn't go to get shot at by organics and not blaming Quarians for starting two wars? 

10. "Immensely"?

@ DeinonSlayer - I saved the geth on a ~ 75% renegade playthrough.

I'm sure Hackett's peers are railing at him for killing off the Second Fleet so that they could live.
Gerrel is working on what limited information he has, which is that the dreadnought it dead in the water, and could be online in seconds. He can't afford to wait it out - he has to decide NOW, or potentally put his entire race at risk. That's what being a commander is about: Making the choices that no one else wants to, because they HAVE to be made.

1. Natural food that the quarians can eat unprocessed (mostly), which is unavalible anywhere else but Rannoch.
Natural abundance of resources to convert into fresh fuel, or mine for construction, which they never could do themselves.
Old ruins that can be repurposed to be the foundations of the new cities.
An atmosphere that isn't lethal to to them.
Natural rock formations that provide perfect cover for guralla hit-and-run's.

Rannoch has EVERYTHING they need.

2. ME2. The Migrant Fleet. ALL the Admirals say that war is being dicussed, and that it's a topic being hotly debated, as a decision must be madd so that the fleet knows what to devote resources to, with them being either pushed or disuaded from the concept by Shepard. Tali says it will likely be "quite some time" before the quarians even make a move, since "quarians like to debate".
So NO, it's not an asspull. It's a prediction.
The Reapers force their hand. They would have likly waited longer before ever making any move.

3. No, it really DOESN'T.
Just because Legion brought the opinion DOESN'T mean the majority of geth believed his reasons. They just say that they made preperations for the Reapers arrival. Legion NEVER directly states which way the wind was blowing before the quarians attack. After seeing what the Reapers did to everyone else, they could have been leaning to the Reapers anyway. They have shown before that their own self-preservation has always been their prime directive, even if it damns others with it.

4. Tali says on the Alerei that the majority of the fleet would need to be canabalized to make Rannoch a true home again, but given the Reapers, they obviously can't do that, as there are still uses for the fleet.
Tali aslo says, in the aftermath of the "peace" outcome, that the geth are aiding in the re-purposing of ship components, creating power stations from the cores and housing from the hulls and decks.

5. Earth's population was intact. There were hardly any escapes, but you KNOW that the majority of the people are there, trapped.
It's the same for the elcor. Their people are trapped on Dekunna, unable to leave. Just like Earth, Palaven, Thessia, and EVREY OTHER world.
So again, the elcor ARE still alive. Just corraled and trapped on their planet. The Reapers don't slaughter population centers, or else they would have simply glassed Thessia and Earth to dust from orbit, like they did Bekenstien.

6. But your opinion of the quarians is SO unrealistic. The quarians were always a close-knit insular sociaty. Such a massive ammount of disputers isn't natural among them. They are not naturally antagonsitic. Also, your recordings show them taking prisioners more then killing. They aren't going to shoot their people in a state of war. Imprision them, maybe, but not kill them. Also, since the Morning War is CONFIRMED to have lasted one year, it means that for it to have been overwhelmed so quickly in that timeframe, it must not have been a large portion of the quarians. 5%, most likely.
After all, 5% of the geth equaled the Heretic armada.
Face it. That 2 billion was killed by the geth.

7. Incorrect. You said NOTHING that disproved anything I said.

The Morning War is one year. The geth take Rannoch at the end of said year. Tali says in ME1 that "eventually, they drove us off our own homeworld." That leaves, what, eleven months unacounted for.
Ergo, Rannoch was taken AFTER the majority of the war had ended. The geth took the world when it was not nessesary to do so.
And I've done all three options of the war.

8. They are BOTH loyal to their respective people, yet you fault Gerrel for the same passion to the quarians that  Legion has for the geth. THAT'S your flaw.
Legion disabled the dreadnought because the entire ship was still in lockdown (Shepard got in because of the unsealed gun chamber) so that Shepard could leave, and to stop the geth attack on the quarians, AND to halt the signal from going beyond Rannoch's system, leaving ONLY the geth in-system as a potental threat.
And I'm sure people asked that of Anderson: why a gifted leader was trapping himself on Earth. Or how the greatist admiral threw away lives to pull back from the dying Alliance captial of Arcturus Station. Or Shepard's choice with the Alpha Relay.
There are likely people that fault or even hate them for those choices, but we hardly ever see any of their peers talk about them. The only admirals we EVER really see are Hackett and Anderson.
Gerrel's "flaws" are NO DIFFERENT then Shepard, Hackett, or Anderson. You honestly expect me to hate him, just because he put the safety of his entire race of 17 million  first over a single human being, that is trained with the ideal of self-sacrifice for the many?.
Is that supposed to be a joke?
Military are trained with the ideal that they don't matter in the shceme of things. Small cogs. Shepard constantly asks Hackett what's so special about him/her. Any true soldier places lives ahead of his own, especally when those number in the millions - an entire race could be hanging in the balance. This is ALL because you don't like that Shepard wasn't the one making the choice. OTHER people need to make tough decisions too, you know. Shepard wouldn't have done any differently from what Gerrel did.
Your "common sense" is that you ignore battlefirld logic, by saying "oh, he didn't think!", when taking the time to think is one more second that ship can come back online and start killing. There isn't a soldier out there worth his rank that would take the risk. Gerrel made the right call.

Hackett is certinly NOT the highest ranking officer. There is an admiral for EACH fleet, and there are six remaining fleets out of the originla eight Alliance core fleets. Hackett is one of six. Seven if you count Anderson. So NO, he most certinly is NOT the chief athoruty in the Alliance. He shares the power just like Gerrel does. And as we see, from what Hackett has shown, Gerrel is hardly overstepping his bounds. Hackett ordered a general retreat, which the others weren't thriled about but did so anyway.
Gerrel led an attack that others weren't thrilled about, but did so anyway.
BOTH were in situations that called for immediate and decisive action. Gerrel was all there was at the time, so he made the call. You can't fault a military man for putting his own people and government first over yours. That's a natural responce. Wouldn't you rather ensure the safety of your country over another if you had the choice?

9. Quarians tried to disable ALL geth, because, AS STATED BY TALI IN ME1, AND LEGION IN ME2, all geth were undergoing the change to graduall self-awareness. Just killing  a select few wouldn't do a damn thing.
The geth were a resource in all regards. Cheep labor, cheep combat units, cheep servents. Like any resource, you'd want it back. Xen says as much.
And your kidding right? The quarians did everything the could to change public opinion of them. They just got sick of the Council continuing to hate them anyway. But at least they tried, and there were people that were coming around and appecaiting and sympathising with them.
And said quarian was under susspission of bringing active geth that killed and entire ship's crew AND an Admiral. No hero is exempt from crime, doesn't matter WHO you are. The first human Spectre got arrested for stoping the Collectors and delyaing the arrival because of Cerberus Ties and the Alpha Relay incident, so the quarian's stance is understandible.
And at the very least, the Alliance did that with Cerberus, did they not? The geth would have at least made the effort, and had they been making an effort beforehand, there wouldn't have been such negeitve feelings in the first place.
And Legion only went after Shepard FOLLOWING the atack on the Citadel (little late to care now, fellas).
And AGAIN, it is NEVER specified who the geth were prepping to fight. JUST that they were prepping for the Reaper war, but NOT which side they were considering on helping.
I never said to not blame the quarians, but they felt that there was no choice but to take Rannoch. You can't blame the quarians and yet ignore all that the geth did wrong too.

10. He gives Shepard every courtosy in ME2, because of his job in helping Tali.

[silverexile17s]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

There is a difference between being armed agaisnt raiders and having Dreadnaught class weapons fitted. That was a recent retrofit.

As I've said, repeatedly, yes, the liveship thanix armaments are new. The rest are not.

Really, the Galaxy's getting ripped a new one and people are ****ing about the Quarians fitting their ships with the biggest guns they could manage?



If only the rest of the galaxy had had the same idea. The Turians and Alliance ought to have been churning out dreadnoughts as fast as they could mine the metal.

You'd think that with thousands of giant metal space squids harvesting or killing everything that moves, people would be protesting to put thanix cannons on BIKES. Seriously, Reapers everywhere, and people are upset thet the quarians actually WANT to protect their civilians?
They would have needed those guns even if they DIDN'T attack the geth.

[silverexile17s]

shodiswe wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Auld Wulf, why are ad hominem attacks always your first move? You accuse everyone who doesn't view the issue the way you do of being ignorant or "disgusting," you make no effort to look at the issue from the other side, and you insult anyone who disagrees with you regardless of the topic at hand. You rant endlessly about the Quarian military nonsensically exterminating their own populace and accuse anyone who contests your assertion of "headcanon." Anyone who dislikes Synthesis is a "luddite." Anyone who favors Destroy is a "genocide fetishist." It makes it really hard to give a damn about your opinion, but such massive posts are hard to ignore.

And Shodiswe, when you're in a situation where giant space cthulhus are ripping the world apart, is it really an unreasonable course of action to arm every ship you have? They'll be targeted regardless of whether they're armed, if not by the Reapers, then by the Geth (who have shot down anyone who so much as stuck their nose over the border for the last three centuries without responding to hails). As such, if they're going to be targeted anyway, they might as well be able to fight back. With the exception of the liveships, most Quarian civilian ships were armed for self-defense against Terminus riff-raff long before the second Geth war was even considered a possibility.

By arming them and opening fire on an alien species that arn´t actively trying to kill you... That´s what  I call stupid. I can see if they were to arm the ship to defend against reapers, but it wuldn´t be enough and would likely attract trouble and make it harder to escape once the reapers show up.
If they wernt armed it woudl be easier to slip out while the reapers attack the armed ships. Threats will always be a primary concern. If you got a dreadnaught with massive armor and shield with giant guns and a glass cannon that will be destroyed when you sneeze at it but with equaly powerful guns, then I can almost guarantee you that any enemy would gun got the vulnerable ship to bring down enemy firepower.
And as I said, attackign the Geth when Reapers are invading the galaxy to purge all organic and synthetic life... That´s a very very very stupid idea! There aren´t even words strong enough for the stupidity of the idea.

The Heretics didn't exactally paint a picture of the geth being friendly.
Shepard's voucher for Legion's information was inadmissable as evidence of the geth's sencerity, because the Commander was slated for Tribunal over the Cerberus involvement, the Alpha Relay, harboring criminals (Jack, Kasumi, possibly Thane), Vigilanties (Garrus, posibly Samara), Members of a known terror group (Miranda, Jacob),  and about a dozen other things.
The Council, to my knowlodge, never recinded the "State of War" they had with the geth.
So in truth, no one outside of Shepard and crew had nay evidence the they geth were even neutral, let alone friendly.

[shodiswe]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

There is a difference between being armed agaisnt raiders and having Dreadnaught class weapons fitted. That was a recent retrofit.

As I've said, repeatedly, yes, the liveship thanix armaments are new. The rest are not.

Really, the Galaxy's getting ripped a new one and people are ****ing about the Quarians fitting their ships with the biggest guns they could manage?



If only the rest of the galaxy had had the same idea. The Turians and Alliance ought to have been churning out dreadnoughts as fast as they could mine the metal.

The main difference would be that  Idon´t agree with the incredible stupidity of attackign the Geth, especialy when the Reaeprs are attacking.

[Giantdeathrobot]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Giantdeathrobot wrote...

You did miss a post. It's not like the Quarians need babysitting. They need some supplies (not food) and a homeland once the fight is over. Don't tell me the Council can't provide both in return for, I say again, the biggest armada in the galaxy, at a time they need ships desrepately. They are hard pressed, but the Migrant Fleet is exactly what they need to relieve the pressure. Supply runs, blockade breaking, reinforcing defenses, it has a lot of potential uses. So what if it needs to stay together? You think the fleets of other races are off flying around having fun? How the hell is a massive 17 000 ship fleet useless to a war effort?

They can't make use of them for troop transport and logistics because those ships are already packed to the rafters with civilians, well beyond standard crew complement. You can't simply blow off that concern just because maybe the Council could find housing for them after the war (an effort the Council actively hindered for centuries).

"After the war" does nothing to address the here-and-now. Here and now, they have to stay within shuttle range of the liveships to keep everyone fed. Here and now, their ships are incapable of splitting up to provide assistance where needed - logistical support does not consist of throwing a wad of fifty thousand ships wherever that help is needed, you have those ships split up to assist hundreds of different locations at the same time. It doesn't matter how much use the Council could get out of those ships if the Quarians currently living in them have nowhere else to go. The Council is overrun with its own refugee crisis - it cannot provide housing and food for seventeen million more. You're hard-pressed to find a Turian world which isn't already under attack, isn't already flooded with refugees from other Turian worlds. What, dump them on Palaven?.

Where does it say that the Fleet is filled to the brim and can barely support itself again? They have logistical problems and their ships aren't pristine, but it's not like the whole Fleet is falling apart if it can last 300 years with a stable population. I'm not asking them to transport half the galaxy, but with 17 000 ships it would be preposterous to think they have no space to store supplies/refugees/boarding parties/whathaveyou. If nothing else, all those ships are armed to the teeth. Why else would the Quarians join the war effort after Rannoch if the Migrant Fleet was as useless to it as you claim?

The Council has hindered them before, but that was before. Before, curing the Genophage was not an option. Before, the Asari revealing their superiority is a fraud was a big no-no. Before, leaving Earth behind was not what Shepard would have done. Before, Batarian and human fleets fighting together was unthinkable. Before, Rachni scientists working with everyone else would have been met with utter disbelief. Almost everyone else has left the past behind, some with much bigger grievances against the Council than being shunned in their space. Set aside said grievances and work with everyone else to fight the Reapers. That's what is going to win the war, not reclaiming a barren rock that you simply cannot defend. Because tha is also going to split the fleet you deem unsplittable.

You also seem to just gloss over the fact that I stated that the Quarians don't need a colony right now. The Fleet can last several decades more, it can very well last until the end of the war. The Council doesn't need to babysit them, just work with them, provide supplies if needed, and help with the eventual ''find a planet'' issue.

[DeinonSlayer]

shodiswe wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

There is a difference between being armed agaisnt raiders and having Dreadnaught class weapons fitted. That was a recent retrofit.

As I've said, repeatedly, yes, the liveship thanix armaments are new. The rest are not.

Really, the Galaxy's getting ripped a new one and people are ****ing about the Quarians fitting their ships with the biggest guns they could manage?



If only the rest of the galaxy had had the same idea. The Turians and Alliance ought to have been churning out dreadnoughts as fast as they could mine the metal.

The main difference would be that  Idon´t agree with the incredible stupidity of attackign the Geth, especialy when the Reaeprs are attacking.

Attacking the Geth only looks stupid if you don't give any consideration as to why they did so.

[DeinonSlayer]

Giantdeathrobot wrote...

Where does it say that the Fleet is filled to the brim and can barely support itself again?

Mass Effect: Ascension. Their population is stable, but the fleet itself is not. Ships are wearing out faster than they can be replaced, and the Quarians are running out of livable space. As an example, the Idenna is a former Batarian cruiser meant to support a complement of 80 crew. 683 civilians called it home.

The migrant fleet lives in a perpetual state of hand-to-mouth. They had to move from system to system and harvest resources constantly just to keep going in peacetime. What are their chances with the Reapers tearing up the galaxy's infrastructure? Fuel depots? Your strategy would require that they move as a single, massive wad taking days to pass through a single relay. If the Reapers encounter them in space, they'd block relay access and whittle them down to nothing. The entire species, dead. Not an attractive prospect.

They have logistical problems and their ships aren't pristine, but it's not like the whole Fleet is falling apart if it can last 300 years with a stable population. I'm not asking them to transport half the galaxy, but with 17 000 ships it would be preposterous to think they have no space to store supplies/refugees/boarding parties/whathaveyou. If nothing else, all those ships are armed to the teeth. Why else would the Quarians join the war effort after Rannoch if the Migrant Fleet was as useless to it as you claim?

...because they're no longer packed to the rafters with civilians, and with the strain take off of the liveships, vessels can be stocked for independent movement.

The Council has hindered them before, but that was before. Before, curing the Genophage was not an option. Before, the Asari revealing their superiority is a fraud was a big no-no. Before, leaving Earth behind was not what Shepard would have done. Before, Batarian and human fleets fighting together was unthinkable. Before, Rachni scientists working with everyone else would have been met with utter disbelief. Almost everyone else has left the past behind, some with much bigger grievances against the Council than being shunned in their space. Set aside said grievances and work with everyone else to fight the Reapers. That's what is going to win the war, not reclaiming a barren rock that you simply cannot defend. Because tha is also going to split the fleet you deem unsplittable.

It's not "barren." It's the only "rock" capable of feeding them, housing them, where a simple suit breach won't kill. Maybe in exchange for the assistance of their unburdened fleet post-Rannoch, the Turians could spare a few heavier ships to help guard the planet.

You also seem to just gloss over the fact that I stated that the Quarians don't need a colony right now.

If they're going to be mobile enough to be of any real assistance, yes, they do.

The Fleet can last several decades more, it can very well last until the end of the war.

Provided it's not found, and can still find resources to maintain itself as it did in peacetime.

The Council doesn't need to babysit them, just work with them, provide supplies if needed, and help with the eventual ''find a planet'' issue.

What supplies does the Council have to give? The whole problem was that the Council can't effectively supply themselves. Not a lot of give-and-take in your plan. Just what the Council can take.