CynicalShep wrote...
@ silverexile17s
Look, pal. I will try to explain you something because you keep making assumptions about me, none of which happen to be correct. I don't hate Quarians and I don't love Geth. I do think that Gerrel is a crackpot admiral who isn't fit to polish Hakett's shoes and I am not a big supporter of the Alliance. Now, I don't think either Quarians or Geth are saints - I just think Quarians screwed up more than Geth did. Even so, that doesn't influence my choice when I can't make peace and choose to side with the Geth. I am making a pragmatic choice. Upgraded Geth are superior both in space and on the ground. So I pick them to fight the Reapers - simple, ruthless calculus of war. I need the best to fight the Reapers and that is who I pick if I can't make peace.
I am pretty sure people are not railing at Hackett for saving two fleets. First - they are soldiers. Second - as painful as it might be it was the ONLY choice he had other than letting everyone die. He didn't kill off a fleet, Reapers did. He saved two fleets when many would have lost all 3. Gerrel is only working on limited intel because he is limiting himself. Hackett informs himself when he makes choices (ME1 ending is but an example). Gerrel has a limited vision and disregards intel. He also put his entire race at risk when he started the war to begin with and then risked it again when he broke formation to attack the dreadnought. Had Raan not moved his fleet Gerrel's fleet would have been wiped out. That's careless, especially since he had no intel. Had the dreadnought come back online instantly like you suggested his entire fleet would have been destroyed because Raan initially told hers to hold position. Now back to our little argument
1. Rannoch was a post-war rock. A barren rock, for all they knew. Reconstruction and building new cities should happen AFTER a war, not in the middle of one. This is the first time I heard anyone rebuilding during a war. A more sensible decision would be devoting resources towards ending the war first and thinking about rebuilding later. They had to wear suits regardless. Tali says it herself that without Geth help they would have had to adapt for generations.
And the "perfect cover" argument is laughable. They were a sitting duck.
2. It's still an asspull. "Some time" could be a year which is presumably roughly how much passed from that mission to their attack. And Xen developed the flashbang which forced the issue even further. They had the "prefect opportunity". In 5 years Geth could have changed in ways nobody can predict.
3. Geth got new data. That data included the mess Heretics made because of the Reapers, the fact that not all organics are hostile and the mission on the Heretic Station. Now I can't know what their consensus was for sure and neither can you. I only know that they chose not to ally themselves with Sovereign in ME1 and they got further proof that Reapers = bad. They knew about the Reapers and their chances in ME1 but chose not to help them. So they "could have been leaning towards the Reapers" but given the way things transpired the opposite is more likely.
4. I know. That doesn't clash in any way with what I said.
5. Is that in the codex somewhere? I know their planet fell and you went there to extract their civilians.
"- How many of your people got out?
- Not ... enough ..."
6. What? They can't even have a trial without barking at each other. The population is divided between wanting to retake the homeworld, staying in space and finding a new world. And most of them hate Geth. What recordings show that they take more prisoners than kill? 5% is an asspul if I ever saw one. Still, assuming that only 5% of Quarians were in the opposition, where are you going to house over 80 million prisoners? This is war, there are always more people killed than taken as POWs. You don't have time to build prisons when you're shooting at someone. So face it - 2 billions weren't killed by the Geth.
7. Assumptions, again. Rannoch was bigger than any of the colonies. It's only logical that the war there would last longer. You are headcanoning the whole war again even though we have barely any data about it.
So did I, although I've only sided with the Quarians on one playthrough.
8. So that applies to me but doesn't apply to you. Care to explain your logic?
You said it yourself - Legion disabled the dreadnought so that Shepard could stop the Geth attacking the Quarians. Legion is Geth. Notice anything unusual?
Anderson sent Shepard to get help and stayed on Earth to coordinate the resistance and buy him time. He didn't risk lives on a revenge quest. Hackett didn't endanger lives, he saved lives when most would have lost everything. And Shepard blew the relay to buy everybody time to prepare for the Reapers. REAPERS. Again, this is very different from what Gerrel did.
First, I don't expect you to hate Gerrel. Hell, I don't hate him - I just think he's a ****** poor admiral and makes needless risks. He belongs behind bars, not in command of a fleet. You are too biased to see that he is needlessly reckless, the last thing I expect from you is you to hate him. And again - he purposefully limits his vision and disregards everybody else's opinion. This is not what a leader does - it's what a dictator does. Learn the difference.
And again, if that ship turned back online in seconds the entirety of Gerrel's fleet would have been destroyed because Raan initially withheld her fleet. This is why I say he is stupid for not informing himself before putting 17 millions at risk. And this is why he is a terrible admiral. Hackett never made a mistake like that.
9. You said that they didn't try hard enough to kill them. Now you're saying that they tried to disable "ALL" of them. I said that they tried disabling them, failed and then attacked them. What are you trying to argue about?
The Geth stopped being a resource when they gained consciousness. They became sentient. Enslaving a sentient species is exactly what it sounds like - slavery. You are advocating that. Now defending Gerrel's bravado is one thing. Defending Xen who is a nutjob - even worse.
What exactly is the "everything" they did to change public opinion? Many of them were thieves and while you can argue that they had no choice the fact still stands. The Quarian on Illum failed at gambling and became a slave. Quarians started populating a planet (hundreds of thousands) before asking if they can, etc. What exactly did they do to change opinion? There were a few people who were appreciated for their skills (assumption, even that isn't shown in game) and there was Tali. Period.
The Quarian stance is understandable. Crimes must be punished, regardless of the hero status. This is however the only time I agree with Xen. A trial was pointless and it was only used by admirals for their own agendas. Every single admiral admits to that last part. That trial was a farce, just like the admiralty board is.
10. That only means he is being polite. And I did say that I liked him more in ME2 in spite of disagreeing with his views.
And
I will explain it in a way that
you can comprehend.
Gerrel and Hackett are cut from the same cloth.
Enough of your favortist
BS when there is
nothing makes them superior to each-other.
And the quarians didn't screw up
any more then the geth did.
Quarians attack the geth when they ask questions of existance.
Reason: the geth aren't supposed to be thinking lifeforms. The Council will place harsh scantions and even censorship on the quarians (still part of the Citadel government at the time) for their untentional breach of A.I. laws.
Geth drive the quarians to extenction.
Reason: they panicked, lashing out against the threat until they were sure it wasn't a threat any longer.
Quarians were nomads that didn't have many allies.
Reason: the Council branded them outlaws for creating the geth, creating the bigitory that most see them with. Even more so when the Council cuts all ties with the quarians and leaves them to fend for theirselves.
Geth never made contact: untrusting of other organics in the wake of their war.
BOTH made mistakes. But BOTH reacted differently.
The quarians were embittered by the galactic opinion, yet still made the efforts to change public opinion of them. The geth by contrast were too isolated, letting hatred fester over 300 years without doing anything.
And yes the quarians may have let hate of the geth build up all that time, but when did the geth ever make any offer of apology, till right at the end?
And by contrast, choosing the geth alone STILL screws you over hard. Without the quarians, you lose the abailty to maintain vital supply lines, which the geth can't maintain because they are suited to combat alone. They aren't experts at resource gathering and repurposing like the quarians are, and their ships aren't designed for supply running and storage, like the quarian ships are.
So NO. Geth have JUST as many cons to having just them survive. The only option that doesn't have cons is if you get both.
And it's
utterly impossible for everyone to be happy at a choice like that. You realize what you are even saying?
There is
no way in hell that everyone was just fine with a third of the ships at Arcturus being tossed away like that. Anymore then how people could accuse Hackett of having abandoned the Alliance Parliment by pulling out from Arcturus. And we NEVER hear from the other admirals about what THEY think about Hackett's move, so you're example is headcannon.
That geth dreadnought could have come back online any moment for all Gerrel knew, and might start shooting at their tail as they pull out. Or it will track them down and come agter them again. Or they could re-broadcast the signal from there (the geth have already shown that they can duplicate Legion well enough, as shown by the Geth V.I.). There are too many risks, and Gerrel has his entire race riding on the choice. He
cannot risk that ship becoming a threat again. JUST like Hackett with Sovergien.
The dreadnought that was killing his people is dead in the water, but could come online again any second. There is NO TIME to eveluate the situation. It's act now, or risk never acting period. Gerrel made the right call.
And the Reapers put the quarians existance at risk
anyway. Rannoch has food and atmosphere that won't kill them. They can offload their civilians confident that they will be out of harms way for a good long time. And they kill the (to everyones knowlogde) Reaper-allied geth.
And Hackett likely made the retreat move first at Arcturus, and the others followed suite.
Gerrel saw the ship dead in the water, and stopped it before it could become a threat again. He made the right call. No exception.
1. The geth left Rannoch in the same state it always was. They need SOME form of housing for the civilans, and the sites of the old cities is as good a place as any. There's already in infrastructure there, so why not?
And you saw ONE part of the planet. How the hell can you magically assume that there aren't places for them to shelter? Or areas to hide or fight effectively in?
Oh, I forgot. Headcannon:wizard:
Seriously, the major reconstruction WOULD be after the war is over, but for now, they need a roof over their heads. That's why they canabalize ships for the work. And it's a fallicy to assume that they entire planet would be exactally like the, what, 20, 30 kilometers of ground you saw? And the canyon you get cased by the Reaper through isn't bad. And look at where the geth AA guns were. And the geth server built into the canyon wall. There are plenty of places on Rannoch to shelter.
And by adaptation, she means living without the suits
completely. They still need them for now, but a suit rupture woun't be leathal anymore, as shown when Tali unmasks on Rannoch's surface.
2. Whatever the quarians were doing, it was spurned ahead of secudule by the Reapers. The Reapers atatcking was the whole reason they attacked Rannoch now. They would have sensibly waited. Why do you think they bull-rushed to Rannoch, instead of taking any of the other geth systems in the Veil? They were desperate and rushed in ahead of schedual.
3. Yet, they didn't openly oppose the Reapers either. Earth and Palaven were burning, and they were still absent. If that truely was their convistion, they would have come out into the galaxy pre-ME3 to help other races prepare. (the quarian attack is seventeen days before Shepard is called in, and Rannoch is the halfway point, likely meaning the atatck was during the Cerberus Coup. The game spanns at least six months. Meaning that while the Reapers were attacking, they were still free and could have helped anytime) They could have shared recovered Heretic data. Instead, they stayed isolated.
There is ZERO indication that the geth weren't going to side with the Reaper's regardless.
4. Yes it does. It means that several ships had to be canabilized forthe quarian re-colonization effort. They need somewhere to sleep after all.
5. That DOESN'T mean they are DEAD. Just unable to leave. We hear that there are
billions of people still alive on Earth that can't get offworld. Same for Palaven and Thessia, and every other species homeworld.
Look at the Volus. They are activlly fighting the Reapers. And if you actually looked at the discription for Dekunna, you would see that it says the Reapers are
occupying the major cities, NOT destroying them.
AGAIN, I say, the Reapers are NOT glassing major population centers for species.
6. Compaired to the
one recording that shows
one quarian killed. The recording says "throw her in with the others," meaning they were taking prisioners more then killing. And again, nothing any protesters could do could ever equal anywhere near 2 billion lives. The very idea doesn't even make sense. The quarians were NOT in a damn civil war. THAT'S the asspull. "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" came in when they realized that the geth weren't diciriminating anymore. They just wanted the quarians gone at some point, and resolved to do just that.
The quarians being in a civil war would have BEEN remembered. But a faction of protesters, small in comparison to the larger population - THAT could be forgotten easily. Ergo, you're making a mountan out of a molehill.
7. From what Tali and legion say about the timeline of the war, the geth's attack on Rannoch took place well after most of the fighting. You don't spend an entire year coordinating a war with hostiles on your homeworld. They were dirven back till the geth forced them off Rannoch. It was a multi-system war. You CAN'T honestly think that every colony was simoultaniously fighting. Or that all fell in the same ammont of time. The war would have only been a day long if that was true.
The geth attacked Rannoch for no other reason other then overzelousness.
8. It's stopping the REAPER control of the geth. Which conencides with aiding the quarians. See what
I'm saying?
Same direction down the road, but no garuntee that they will come out the same place at the bend.
From what Gerrel knows, just because Legion stopped the ship, DOESN'T mean it did so for the quarians, but rather for the sake of freeing it's own people from the Reapers. Their goals coencided.
Comprende'?
Legion even supportes this, by activally lying about it's true motivations to save geth from the geth hub on Rannoch. Saying that it will aid to save the quarians, but later reveals that this was only a
pretense so that it could rescue geth.
And does so again by revealing that it still has Reaper upgrades.
Anderson is still a valued leader and figurhead. No one can be happy with him staying in the lions den like that.
And Rannoch has to be retaken so that the Civilinas will have shelter from the Reapers. REAPERS.
And Gerrel attacks the dreadnought to also keep them from having an extra tool to help the Reapers. REAPERS.
And the geth have always been liste as allies of the Reapers. REAPERS.
He destroyed the dreadnought to save his people from a potenatl future threat from the geth, which are controlled by the Reapers. REAPERS.
There is LITTLE difference in military doctrine. You do what you need to to ensure safety for your people. That's what they put you in charge to DO.
And your opinion DOES seem to constitute hate. I daresay that alot of this is souly because you have a grudge against him.
Hackett's sacrifice of the entire second fleet can be considered the same, as we NEVER get any reasoning on WHY the sacrifice was nessessary. I'll just bet that had that been part of the game, you would be pining to punch him out too. It's never even specified on if the sarcifice really WAS the only option, or just the one that Hackett picked. You are the one going off assumptions, not me.
YOU are the biased one, in that you cannot seem to accept that in war, qucik decisions are the difference between life and death. Gerrel wasn't going to risk his entire race of 17 million for
one human and a "maybe it won't come back". No sane commander would. YOU cannot grasp the difference between a commander making tough calls, and a dictator. If what you say was true, George Washington is a dictator as well.
Learn the difference between tactial decisions and dictatorship, because Gerrel doesn't fall into the latter.
And THAT VERY REASON is why Gerrel pressed his fleet forward and forced the others to act. If they sat and thought about it, they could be fried, so he forced them to get the lead out and strike while the iron was hot.
9. The geth were still a valuble resource. And like any resource, it would be more wastefull destroying it completely, then capturing it.
And when the quarians attacked, they were still unaware that the geth evolved tha tfar, Tali saying that the hope was that the geth were still just V.I.s.
I WASN'T defending Xen - you are twisting my words. I was using her as an example that the quarians of old likely saw the geth as a resource, until they retaliated against the attack. They didn't know the geth were living beings yet, so it wasn't intentonal slavery.
Honestly, STOP trying to twist my words like that.
And there you go. You are following the propaganda. Quarians are
salvagers. They either trade for resources, or get them from unclaimed sources. Thives is a slander. Look at that ****** volus in the wards back in ME2.
It's mob mentality. Pick on someone enough, or slander them enough, and everyone thinks it's all true. The quarians were activally trying to change that image of them, maintaning links to the wider galaxy with the pilgrimages, making requests to the Council periodicly. Applying for jobs in the wider galaxy. Aiding in whatever was offered them in exchange for resources. At least trying to maintain some form of amicable relations.
WHAT did the geth do in 300 years to aliveate the negitive views of organics on synthetcis.
They stayed isolated behind the Perceus Veil.
They killed anyone, civilian or otherwise, that set even a toe past the border of the Perceus Veil.
They ignored all other attempts to signal or communicate with them.
And then, with seemingly no provocation, a feet of geth up and tear the Attacan Traverse a new one, then blow a hole through the Citadel Fleet and light up the Presidum and half the wards.
That REALLY seems like a good way to promote organic/synthetic love.
And Gerrel, Koris, and Raan say that they never indended to allow their debate about the geth get involved in Tali's trial, but that the geth presance on the Alerei made the topic rather understandibly hard to ignore.
They are NOT a farce. Just tired, desperate, and by ME3, scarred of the Reapers destroying what little they have left.
10. Gerrel is the one that fights Koris's desire to see Tali exiled, thinking that a quarian that has become such a hero among them should be able to defend herself.
He shows definate respect for Shepard, especally if you use the Renagade option in the end of the Trial and call them each out, with how far he goes to defend another quarian.
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