CynicalShep wrote...
@ silverexile17s
You're not explaining anything. You're making claims. Again. They are not made from the same cloth, I am sure than many Quarian sympathizers will agree with me on this one. I even explained you why. Repeatedly.
That's your opinion. Quarians made robots to help. They kept upgrading them. Geth became sentient. Quarians got scared and attacked. No fail-safes and no remorse. That's Quarians in a nutshell.
Quarians made a race of robots that almost destroyed them. If you're going to break Citadel laws at least be smart about it. You still haven't explained how was it that Quarians tried to improve their reputations. I told you how they deteriorated it even further. Why would Geth appologize? They were attacked. Consider this: we humans make robots and then attack them. Some robots take up arms first, we keep pressing, more join them - we lose. Are you going to expect appologies from them? Are you even thinking this through?
Again, that is your opinion. I saw Quarians blasted out of the sky. That wasn't the entire fleet and Geth Primes and the likes weren't involved. Geth can fight in environments and conditions organics can't. I don't have to babysit them, feed them antibiotics and dextro-amino food. Their military is superior and I don't need to use up resources to "take care" of them. I think they are the better choice. You have the right to think whatever you want, I'm tired of trying to reason with you.
I will repeat that italics don't give your arguments more weight or make them more dramatic. I think you overuse them. It's your choice, though.
Nobody was happy with the choice Hackett had to make. Everybody understands that it was a masterstroke. In war people die. Other people don't like when people die. What example? Just about everybody at Arcturus died - Udina tells you that. Reapers ignored most of the fleets and jumped straight on the station. It's a miracle that Hackett was able to save that much. Read the lore before starting arguments. And he tells you himself that that was the worst beating SA ever took. Compare that with Gerrel, who got his entire race killed by GETH in the air. Hackett had enough sense to understand that fighting back was a fool's errand at that point and saved the majority of the fleet. Gerrel kept firing and got his entire race killed by an inferior force (inferior to the dozen Reaper Capital ships that attacked Arcturus).
I will repeat: if that dreadnought came back online instantly Gerrel would have lost his entire fleet and likely the war. His fleet depended on Raan's fleet and he just jumped forward without coordinating with her. That gets soldiers killed. This isn't a military decision a responsible admiral would take.
About the Arcturus Station - 45.000 people including the entire Parliament and Prime Minister Amul Shastri died there. They were attacked by a dozen Capital Ships in an attack that was so sudden none of them had time to evacuate. Hackett actually manages to save more than half of his ships. He didn't even have half of the Alliance fleet and he managed to save two thirds. Compare that with letting Geth upload the code. And since Hackett was just "one of the many" how come he was the one mobilizing all Alliance fleets to prepare for the invasion?
1. The same way you magically assume that there is infrastructure and shelter. The terrible robots threw bombs and destroyed everything, remember? Why would there be anything standing after a planet-wide war? They were fighting the Geth. Those buildings would have been bombed (because Geth platforms would pew pew them otherwise).
2. Their priority is Rannoch. In what "Battlefiled tactics and war logistics" (or however you called them) would attacking some stray Geth be a good idea? Why warn your enemy of your intentions? You would give them a chance to prepare. I think I'm starting to understand why you consider Gerrel a good admiral.
3. Oh, for crying out loud, start making some sense. Asari, Salarians, Krogans, Elcor, Volus, QUARIANS, Drell, Hanar, Batarians, Leviathans, Raloi, Vorcha, Yahg, Rachni, Pyjacks and the goddamn Shifty Looking Cow were sitting on their asses while Earth and Palaven burned. Why are you singling out the Geth, the only race that was shot on site by all organics bar Shepard and his crew? If that's all the proof you need that somebody sided themselves with the Reapers then all the goddamn galaxy wanted to side with the Reapers.
4. And how is that different from what I said?
5. Even if ALL Elcor were alive the Flotilla was the only one able to escape. The rest are being harvested.
6. "The recording says 'throw her in with the others' meaning they were taking prisoners more than killing" Really? Is that what that means? Like, 100%? And none of this is even a little bit of headcanon?
Mentioned by whom? Quarians? I can imagine the lesson in school: "And then we killed 20% of the population because they didn't want to kill robots." No wonder they have nutjobs like Gerrel and Xen in charge.
7. I would like some proof. Please, back up at least this one argument. Once
8. But I thought the terrible Geth were trying to kill the good Quarians? And Geth was a overzealous patriot. He disabled the signal that was keeping them in the fight. Por que? (see, I can do dramatic cool spanish lines, too).
So Legion helped the Quarians. He also helped his people. He is bad. Admirals hiding their agendas, promising to retreat and attacking - that's military tactics. A Geth helping Quarians and his people - traitor.
That's exactly why Anderson stayed. He was useless when he was a Councilor. He is a soldier - one of the best. His experience, leadership and skill is what gives Shepard time and it gives Earth resistance morale and a fighting chance. That's the only place where he is useful.
Geth might be temporarily allied with Reapers because of reasons we both know but they are not Reapers. I don't think I have to explain the difference between the two to you.
I daresay you're wrong. There is no reason to hate a nation, not even the batarians. Civilians of any nation are just that - civilians. They have no say in what happens with them. Hell, your Gerrel dragged the civilians in a war they didn't want. Why hate the Quarians? They're never given a choice because that's not how dictatorship works.
Read the codex about what happened at Arcturus. Play the game. I don't have the energy to keep repeating stuff over and over again because you don't bother to read.
I am no more biased than you. Neither Tali nor Legion are my favorite characters, not by a long shot. I like both, I love neither. You are a Quarian fan, this thread is all you ever comment on. The only "bias" I have is that I'm getting fed up with this "conversation" and I think Quarians screwed up more than the Geth. You think otherwise - your right. You're free to think whatever you want. Just don't make a sport of denying everything without proof because reasons. You disagree with me - good. Take time to properly explain why and try to understand that not everybody will share your opinion. And dare I say - take time to read what I write if you want to discuss. Many times people will disagree with you with good reason. I said that Geth screwed up multiple times and in some instances explained how. You defended every single action Quarians ever took. Read the definition of "bias".
9. Xen is still trying to return Geth "to their rightful masters". These are the people you are supporting. VIs don't ask if they have souls. Tali says they haven't noticed their transition to AIs. There are failsafes for that. Hell, EDI is a fully fledged AI and is kept well under check by an organization that failed many, if not most of their experiments.
The volus is an idiot, in spite of what you might think I defended the Quarian in that "exchange". And I believe it's Tali who say that "Quarians are forced to steal because they can't get a job" (I'm paraphrazing but she said that). So it's true. There is no "propaganda", this is not what propaganda means. There is no need for an agenda that kicks the Quarians further down, they're pretty low as it is. There is prejudice and racism, however.
And you seem to forget the difference between the Geth and Heretics. If Geth were to aid Sovereign there would be no ME2 and ME3. They stayed isolated and learned about organics because as soon as one geth popped up he was shot on sight. And individual Geth weren't smart enough. They made Legion to fix that. Legion aided Shepard and then talked to him. Tali talked to him. Koris talked to him (in my playthough, at least). Legion even explained Koris why Geth would need proof that Quarians want peace before opening talks. Koris agreed. Look up the dialogue, it's interesting. What happened later? Nothing. Gerrel went on his crusade.
And yet they did. Tali puts the fleet above everything else. She helps against Saren. She brings them geth data. She goes to Halestorm. And they didn't even give her the benefit of doubt - they charge her with treason without a second thought.
10. Ok, he does. He also behaves more like an admiral, not like a dictator. Unlike ME3
Look, our conversation is going nowhere. The posts are getting longer and arguments are heating up. If we are going to keep talking tone it down, keep it civil and read my arguments. Otherwise this might well be the last time I answer to you. No offense
@DenionSlayer seems to be an indication of the direct opposate of your claim. They ARE cut from the same cloth: lifelong military, who make the hard choices that get people killed, but insure the survival of the many in the long run. That's what being a commander is.
And again, wrong. Half the reason was because they were afarid of the Council's responce to haveing accdently created A.I.s. It always comes back to the quarian's fear of the Council's repraisal. If not for that, they would likely not have been so brash in trying to terminate the geth.
And Legion tells you that the GETH made the changes to themselves, as "the creators did allow self-optimization." Their networking was a result of that, which in turn resulted in their sentiance. The geth were souly the ones responcible for their own self-awareness.
Quarians make pilgrimages to other races to learn, and be part of sociaty, and sometimes, get jobs in outside companies,
proving to others that they still wish to be part of the galactic community. The get jobs repairing other ships, or get contacted for trades, and are open to trade for resources,
proving to others that they are not hostile, nor primitive. They maintain contact with the Council, and despite no longer being governed by their laws, respects their doctrines,
proving to others that they still hold acknowlegement of Council authority.
What did the GETH do to interact with the galactic community? At least the quarians TRIED, and actually changed some people's views of them from "suit-rats" to "fellow beings" by continuing to, at the very lest, be a part of the galactic community.
And YOU are the one not thinking it through. Geth are networked. Once one took up arms, it was foolish for any to think a race that shared collictive intelligence like that wouldn't follow. As they are, it was assumed that if one jumps, they all jump. No one knew the ture effect of how the geth consensis worked. At the time, it was naturally considered impossible for machines to have diffiring views like that. It wasn't till later they found out that wasn't true. It's a domino effect. Once the first falls, the rest follow, and sprials out of control.
And the geth are souly combat heavy. They don't have ships that are designed to shuttle large ammounts of organic food and supplies. So WHAT if you have the geth? Doesn't save all the other
organic races from starving, since the geth aren't specilized to transport medicine, food, or even organic personell in general, meaning that the geth are completely self-conatined to the point that they CANNOT effectively mesh with other organic fighting forces. They don't have the same requirements, so they are unable to aid other organic races in terms of food, medicine, or transportation. Which is what the
quarians specallize in.
They can specilize in effective troop transport, as their ships are retrofitted to handle large ammounts of people at once, and to carry large amounts of resources for a large group. Which isn't straned anymore if the quarians have a world of their own. The quarians only need someone to "take care" of them if they
don't have their own world. The quarians stay in their ships otherwise. You
won't have to babysit them at all. They can hanlde themselves if they have their own world.
And the ittallics is so you don't glace over the point of the topics. Which here, is that you are discounting the quarians in every way.
And AGAIN, you are being favortist. No one saw that from Shepard's destruction of the Alpha Relay. NO ONE saw that as a "masterstroke." They saw it as terrorisim.
And again, you are making unbased assumptions, as we never see any of Hackett's peers on this. Not even Anderson comments on Hackett's decision. For all you know,
absolutly no one saw Hackett's decision as any form of "masterstroke." Saying that is an asspull if there ever was one.
And the Reaper's target WASN'T Arcturus. It was EARTH. Arcturus was a secondary priority compaired to that. And how the hell could YOU possibly know what the Reapers were and weren't focusing on. You weren't there. Which is, again, the reason you can't say anything in Hackett's defence about the battle, because it will be headcannon.
He sacrificed the entire Alliance Second fleet, and left Arcturus. He could have given an evacuation order.
You weren't there. You have no clue if there weren't other possibilaties. So don't act like Hackett is a be-all, end-all godsend, when in all possibilaty, he screwed up, or made a certin choice out of several. So no, he is NO BETTER OR DIFFERENT then Gerrel.
Gerrel saw a chance to cut off the head of the enemy. If they pull back, the Reapers are going to pursue, and that ship will likely be in the forefront. Plus, this could be the only time the ship can be destroyed. If he hesitates, he puts everyone in danger. Also, if the quarians DID pull out, then the geth would be free to direct attention to other races fighting the Reapers, and aid in the fight. An strain that would break the allies.
All these variables accounted for, plus the lives of 17 million people, vs one single human, and the choice is obvious. The ONLY option that results in the least lives lost, is to destroy the dreadnought here and now.
And in all fairness, the geth could have done that anytime with the Reaper uogrades. The Reapers THEMSELVES wanted the quarians preserved for harvesting. The geth didn't. It wasn't ANY tactical mistake on Gerrel's part that caused that, so don't throw blame where it isn't due.
Again, headcannon. You weren't there, so don't act like Hackett's was the best choice when we have no clue if other options were avalible.
Geth had processing upgrades of Reaper origin. That allows them to collectively match the Reapers in tactical intelligence. The geth could always have rolled over the quarians with those upgrades. The Reapers wanted the quarians preserved for harvesting.
and
I repeat, THAT'S why Gerrel FIRED immediately. He couldn't risk anything. Every moment was a risk, and Gerrel would not risk any more. he forced her to respond, because in all likelyhood, she was uncoordinated in war tactics to begin with. Gerrel was the only one with military experance, so he took the reigns when no one else could, or would.
And Hackett says that the choice was souly his, meaning he likely gave the order without coordinating with any of the Alliance admirals. So again, SAME.
And again, WRONG. Hackett AND Anderson. That's two Admirals out of about nine space Admirals. And the Admirals on the board during Priority: Earth gave the order as well. Hackett gave the order, but it had to be backed by others to be carried out. And again, Headcannon, as we have no spicifics as to the length of the fight. The turians were in the same position, and didn't give any quarter.
1. And subsuquently built many bases and structures that in turn could be repurposed. Like that clifside bunker where the geth hub is? And many other ships to salvage materials from? Remember, teh quarians assumed they'd have alot of dead geth materal to salvage too. So again, WRONG. It's not headcannon at all.
Also, Tali and Legion while on Tuchanka say that the damage on the quarian worlds wasn't that bad. Most of it was toxin damage. NOT structure damage. Just look at Haestrom. One of the first worlds to fall in the rebellion, yet the buildings are in damn good shape. Hardly any structure damage. So your argument is unfounded.
2. The geth megastructure is there, around Rannoch's sun. And even if not attacked, if th egeth finish it, it will absorbe vast amounts of Rannoch's solar energy, and be detrimental to plant development, like the crops the quarians need. Kill that, and you cripple the geth with a blow RIGHT to the heart. THAT'S battlefield tactics. "Kill the head, and the body will die."
So YES, a good tactic.
3. Again, Comepletely and UTTERLY wrong. They were all actively under attack too. Palaven was attacked, Irune (volus) and Heshtok (vorcha) were assulted too. Hanar and drell have mostly automated denenses, so no real fleet to send past their own borders. Same for the elcor. The asari were being pressured early on. The batarians had most of their fleet gone. The quarians were panicked to get a safe place for their civies. The salarians were activlly helping other races behind the scenes.The ONLY races that did nothing were the Geth and Raloi. The yhag are pre-spaceflight, the Rachni were cpatured, and the Leviathans would normally not care anyway. So again, DEAD WRONG. THINK for once. Again, your arguement has no real basing.
4. You said that there was no reason to canabalize military ships. I said that those would need to be canabilaized too.
5. And that means tha tte Reapers want the major population centers alive. And that there is still a chance to save them. They may be trapped, but they aren't dead yet. Reapers tend to take their time, if you haven't noticed.
6. Its' more logical then your falicy about them just shooting other quarians on sight.
And 20%? You REALLY are being too lofty on the goals. The quarians remember their hsitory even if it's not pleasant. They would have remembered, had such a high amount been on the other side.
7. Haestrom codex: "It was one of the first worlds to fall in the war." Ergo, the war was uneven, and many worlds fell long before Rannoch did.
Adas discription, Tikkun system, ME3: Adas' small
mining population was quickly overrun, showing that the geth didn't decriminate between civies and soldiers. It also shows that the geth were ploughing through the Rannoch system when there wasn't a need.
Legion says that the taking of Rannoch was the endpoint of the war, ergo they assulted it when the majority of other worlds were taken.
8. But you again FAIL to comprehend the situation. A geth stopped the dreadnought. Was it to help quarians? Or to free geth? Or just some personal debt to the human? These are all the questions that Gerrel has, with no way to know if the answers are right.
Gerrel has NO clue WHICH of the two things was Legions REAL goal, and which one was the side-effect. Until a while ago, the thing was plugged into Reaper tech, and being used as a command antenna. How is he supoosed to take him on his word about whcih is which, especally when Legion even lies to SHEPARD.
Gerrel doesn't know WHY a geth would betray his people. The quarians haven't seen it before. As far as they knew, all geth were like the Heretics. It's not something you just buy into, especally when a good portion of your people were killed by them just now.
And besides, I didn't MAKE him councilor in my central playthrough. I may have hated Udina, but I knew where the two were strongest at. And when He IS councilor, he says that he has to stay and do the hard jobs, and that the frontline is Shepard's place.
And the geth were on the fence tryong to figure out which team was the winning one.
And this was all so that the civilians would HAVE a place to GO to. It's either a world for them, or sitting in space, waiting to be Reaper-chow. WHICH is the lesser evil? A single battle, or what could be a lifetime of fear and misery living your last days in utter terror?
Shouldn't be that hard. It's NOT dictatorship. It's doing the hard jobs. The commands that no one else wnat's, because SOMEONE has to do it.
Arcturus Codex says NOTHING about what the exact circumstances of the fight are. Invalad point.
And I NEVER saw you say anything that didn't defend the geth. You are biased on GERREL. That was my problem. I actually am a geth SYMPATHISER. But even I can see that the quarians are taking flak for things that aren't their fault. I can rationilize everything that BOTH sides did, ergo the reason why I say that the quarians did NOT screw up any more then the geth did.
So NO, I'm NOT biased.
9. NO. NO. NO. I am NOT supporting them, for God's sake. I'm saying that WHAT THEY BELIEVED in. STOP twisting my words around.
I'm saying that was THEIR ORIGINAL INTENT, before they realized the geth were a self-aware race. Thats' IT, so STOP trying to twist around what I said. There are differences between living, and mimicing living. The quarians didn;t know which the geth were till to late.
And she's only talking about SOME quarians.
And no one KNEW these intricicies of the geth. Every peace envoy was killed on sight without even so much as a warning. And Shepard tells Legion "Nothing ever get's solved ifyou just sit behind the Perceus Vail and LET them hate you." Which is what they did. And Gerrel had no choice, since Reapers were everywhere, and there was nowhere else to bring their civilians that would be even marginally safe.
And again, geth killed an Admiral and an entire research ship, and could be prepping to spread to other ships like a virus. It threatens the
entire fleet. That's PETTY damn hard to ignore. Hence the trial for Tal.
10. He's no different in ME3. He's acting in his athority, and taking charge when no one else will. And he had the backing of BOTH Xen and Raan in the invasion.
And the words are bolded for emphesis. It's not yelling. Just pointing out the things you seem to continually miss.
Modifié par silverexile17s, 08 février 2013 - 10:40 .
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Really, everyone is talking the topic too seriously overall, on both sides. But nothing wrong with a good discussion in the end.
