354 réponses à ce sujet

[thehomeworld]

shodiswe wrote...

Also, the argument about the Geth being able to move from Rannoch and old Quarrian space.

If they would have done so all of a sudden then every organic race in the galaxy would have assumed they were attempting expansion and invited a giant boot from the council to step on them. The more contact they attemt the more trouble they risk stiring up.
Also after sendign their initial ambassador or ambassadors the Council probably stayed out of Geth space for the centuries to come, except for, possibly a few spy probes and similar. They also had very specific orders for the rest of the galaxy not to provoke the geth.

To the geth it probably feelt safest to keep the status quo until the Reapers showed up. An almost unstoppable all destroying force.

Before that, they probably thought they could evolve themselves, and studdy organics for millenia to understand them better.

For some reason they restored Rannochs wildlife the best they could.

They were content where they were and since the council and organics didn't attack they probably didn't want to change anything until they were forced to. The Heretics made the Geth send Legion to act as an Ambassador for the true Geth, probably because they feared that Organics would see it as an all out Geth attack on Organics and then rush in and annihilate all Geth. They also feared the Reapers who would "harvest" both organic and synthetic life.

Also I don't think one could say that the Geth were actualy created by organics, it was more like the miracle of life. A random unintended process. The Quarrians only built cheap inexpensive robotic labour. The Geth then self optimized their functionality, eventualy that selfoptimization lead to the creation of AI inteligence and questions and behaviour that scarred the Quarrians because it wasn't what they had intended or somethign they would have allowed. They just didn't think it would or could happen.
In their mind Life just doesn't evolve out of synthetic materials.
Like DNA randomly links together and reproduces on deadworlds and asteroids until it's everywhere.

Really the galaxy would throw a fit becasue they were leaving? Not likely they had the veil quarintined off no one knew anything. They also didn't have to wait 300 years to move either if it was about finding a place away from our galaxy they could've dispatchd a few ships and moved out in under 100 years and do so without anyone being the wiser.

If anything was suddently going to happen after the geth moved it would've been a land grab once someone got the idea the geth no longer occupied the planet and then the Quarians would be fighting them over their own homeworld.

Yes you are correct that people stayed away from geth space after the intial peace ships got blown up a few crazy people of the long standoff decided to try and again got blown up. Everyone knew to stay away and that the geth didn't want peace them blowing up outside ship and cliaming they're peaceful doesn't do anything to reinforce their side of that argument and when the galaxy have the "bad" geth running around gunning them down they will auto lump in the veil defenders and the bad geth into one group becasue again they do nothing to show the world they are good they only build Legion and expect he'll be enough to correct several hundered years worth of bad publicity.

Now that you bring up the reapers if the geth were good like they claimed and only want peace with the organics they could've easily used the internet to spread rumors that Sov was a reaper and Saren was pioleting it. And why didn't they again move away? They don't care what happens to the organics they never warned them about Nazera coming to destroy them they let half their group go over to his side so again they have no reason to stay but contrivance you can't say they stayed for pity, or the help people once the invasion started by their actions they were fine to kick their feet up and watch the galaxy burn cuz they understood why half their members would want to go with the geth still not sounding like the good geth Legion claims they are.

As far as evolution goes they don't need a planet for that a space station works fine. Its not the air, dirt, and broken cities that make them evolve.

Them being content to hold onto a world of no value to them makes it conctrived they claim they're really smart yet they seem very dumb in this reguard we're afraid of the reapers and the evil mob of Quarians so we're going to stay on a world that is an easy target rather then pack it in and go to the astroid belt, the center of the galaxy, or some nebula where no one in the right mind would want to go and reapers will be hardpressed to fallow.

Modifié par thehomeworld, 08 février 2013 - 06:55 .

[silverexile17s]

Hazegurl wrote...

Dunabar wrote...

Auld Wulf wrote....
You must be a lovely person to know IRL. 

Now let's here your adorable aploogism for your fascism/racism, and for your support of genocide.

I'm sorry, but you disgust me.

Is this common in the Pro-Geth camp? I mean is there like some secret exchange of notes that says "If anyone differs in opinion on the Geth attack them"? It's a video game, this isn't real life. If you cannot differ the two you seriously have some problems to resolve. Whatever good you may have brought to this discussion just went out the front door and with it any grounds of respect for your contributions to this post you deserve.

I'm not pro Geth nor anti-quarian. But let's be honest here. Attacks have been going on to some degree on both sides. No party is purely innocent in that matter. You're right, it's a video game. I don't think anyone here is a racist unless they say "X (real life race of people) are (insert derogatory comment here)" I also find it laughable being told that I have Quarian blood on my hands.  Really, everyone is talking the topic too seriously overall, on both sides. But nothing wrong with a good discussion in the end.

Can you blame them though? You yourself said that the quarians deserved their fate, and their exile, when nobody deserves something like that.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 08 février 2013 - 07:08 .

[justafan]

Giantdeathrobot wrote...

Weren't the Quarians considered unworthy? If so, no harvest is needed. Just kill the lot of them. And even if they do harvest, they never hold back. Look at Earth. Look at Palaven. Look at Thessia. All of them, harvestable planets (Earth even moreso). Did they hold back? No, they smashed the planet, subjugated the survivors, and then turned them into mush.

Furthermore, there's a high probability the Quarians will be packed together, since only some portions of Rannoch are habitable right now (the ones with food). As for guerilla tactics, the Asari tried. See how it ended. How do you want to use guerilla against a foe with no supply lines? Sorry, no matter how you put it, there is simply no way for Rannoch to survive a Reaper assault. Only Palaven has done so, not because they used guerilla, but because the Turians are the toughest ones around and had the best infantry in the galaxy as support. The vulnerable and physically weak Quarians lose every single advantage they have as soon as they leave a ship, and I doubt the supply-starved Migrant Fleet can play cat and mouse with the much faster Reapers for long.

I think the "worthiness" you refer to is an insult from harbinger, and he says that to every species minus humans.  To get a sovereign class reaper is apparently a great honor, everyone else not worthy is turned into a destroyer which is more or less the reapers fulfilling their "preservation" directive.

And it's not like I expect the Quarians to beat the reapers or anything when they show up, simply hold out long enough for eventual victory (which is what all besieged worlds are hoping for).  As Anderson and Earth shows, it's a lot easier to survive if you split up and hide across the planet rather than engage the reapers head on.  You will still lose in the long run, but on a planet you can run from a battle and hide with lots of resources readily available.  And the reapers are prevented from simply nuking you because they have the need to harvest, which works in your advantage, as the reaper can't afford lots of collateral damage if your population is already so small, allowing you a better chance to run and hide.

In space without a shelter like Rannoch, the loss of a single ships equals hundreds if not thousands of civilian casualties.  With nowhere to run.  At least on Rannoch, even if the reapers do find their settlements, they at least have the chance to run and hide.  It is by no means perfect, but the odds are much better.

Modifié par justafan, 08 février 2013 - 07:15 .

[silverexile17s]

Auld Wulf wrote...

Oh, and the operation is against reaper-geth. Basically just reaper code in geth shells. So this doesn't bother me in the least. >_> It's just a shame that you have to play quarians to help out. I actually feel sorry for the geth that they're having their hardware stolen like that. And by remote control, no less.

As for wanting to commit genocide against a species, or enslave an entire species, just because they're different? That's no different than how we treated black people. That still disgusts me. As a person with a strong sense of ethics, that's never going to change. I'm sorry to those who don't agree, but to me it would be like agreeing with those we can't name here, those who were responsible for so many atrocities. Or it would be like agreeing with America permitting slavery for a time.

I don't think that genocide or slavery are ever options, no matter what. There's always another way. Empathy and ethics provide me with the perspective that I always have another choice.

First off, will you leave out the racist remarks? This debate has absolutly nothing to do with physical appearance.
The quarians need a world to survive. The geth are already branded enemies of the Galaxy for the Heretic's attack on the Citadel.
The geth never did anything to correct that public opinion of them, killed anyone that set foot past the border of the Perceus Vail, and stayed isolated when everyone else was fighting. Legion's words do not have weight, as Shepard, the person backing them, was under Tribunal for Cerberus accociation, and the Alpha Relay incident, so Shepard's claims are inadmissable as evidence of geth friendleness, or even geth neutality.
The geth are still considered enemies of the free galaxy, and they are in the way of getting to Rannoch. From what everyone else believes, they could come out and start aiding the Reapers.
So no, the quarians attack had NOTHING to do with racisism. The geth were already considered hostile, and with Reapers everywhere, the quarians were dirven to desperation to get Rannoch back.

And you are WRONG again, because the "reaper code in geth shells" are empty bodies that the Reaper's repurposed. Reapers in geth bodies. But the ones on Rannoch are the real ones. Pre and pro upgrade.

And in regards to your "slave" statment, Xen was unstable to put it lightly. She didn't see machines as lifeforms, therefore, believed that it wasn't slavery if it wasn't alive. She was closed off to the truth, so her opinion isn't improtant in this.

And you are taking it far too literally, akining it to bloody slavery and genocide, and examples of it in real life. It's a game.
And the quarians were forced to try and get Rannoch back because of the Repaers. The geth turned to the Reapers because the quarians came for their world. It's a domino effect. The tiles were falling long before this happened, and this outcome was inevitable.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 08 février 2013 - 10:39 .

[S.A.K]

I just kill the geth. Better that way.

Geth were a mistake to begin with.

[silverexile17s]

shodiswe wrote...

Also, the argument about the Geth being able to move from Rannoch and old Quarrian space.

If they would have done so all of a sudden then every organic race in the galaxy would have assumed they were attempting expansion and invited a giant boot from the council to step on them. The more contact they attemt the more trouble they risk stiring up.
Also after sendign their initial ambassador or ambassadors the Council probably stayed out of Geth space for the centuries to come, except for, possibly a few spy probes and similar. They also had very specific orders for the rest of the galaxy not to provoke the geth.

To the geth it probably feelt safest to keep the status quo until the Reapers showed up. An almost unstoppable all destroying force.

Before that, they probably thought they could evolve themselves, and studdy organics for millenia to understand them better.

For some reason they restored Rannochs wildlife the best they could.

They were content where they were and since the council and organics didn't attack they probably didn't want to change anything until they were forced to. The Heretics made the Geth send Legion to act as an Ambassador for the true Geth, probably because they feared that Organics would see it as an all out Geth attack on Organics and then rush in and annihilate all Geth. They also feared the Reapers who would "harvest" both organic and synthetic life.

Also I don't think one could say that the Geth were actualy created by organics, it was more like the miracle of life. A random unintended process. The Quarrians only built cheap inexpensive robotic labour. The Geth then self optimized their functionality, eventualy that selfoptimization lead to the creation of AI inteligence and questions and behaviour that scarred the Quarrians because it wasn't what they had intended or somethign they would have allowed. They just didn't think it would or could happen.
In their mind Life just doesn't evolve out of synthetic materials.
Like DNA randomly links together and reproduces on deadworlds and asteroids until it's everywhere.

Who says they had to leave the veil entierly? Why not just Rannoch? Couldn't they have taken another world, one the quarians either didn't want, or couldn't live on anyway? Haestrom, perhaps? And there were several other quarian systems where that dyson sphere could have been built. Why Rannoch's star?
And look what total ioslation brought them. The difference is two extremes, but at least in one, there is a chance to change the view of others. It never changes if nobody tries.

And Legion was a spy, souly ment to locate Shepard, out of curiousity.

[shodiswe]

thehomeworld wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

Also, the argument about the Geth being able to move from Rannoch and old Quarrian space.

If they would have done so all of a sudden then every organic race in the galaxy would have assumed they were attempting expansion and invited a giant boot from the council to step on them. The more contact they attemt the more trouble they risk stiring up.
Also after sendign their initial ambassador or ambassadors the Council probably stayed out of Geth space for the centuries to come, except for, possibly a few spy probes and similar. They also had very specific orders for the rest of the galaxy not to provoke the geth.

To the geth it probably feelt safest to keep the status quo until the Reapers showed up. An almost unstoppable all destroying force.

Before that, they probably thought they could evolve themselves, and studdy organics for millenia to understand them better.

For some reason they restored Rannochs wildlife the best they could.

They were content where they were and since the council and organics didn't attack they probably didn't want to change anything until they were forced to. The Heretics made the Geth send Legion to act as an Ambassador for the true Geth, probably because they feared that Organics would see it as an all out Geth attack on Organics and then rush in and annihilate all Geth. They also feared the Reapers who would "harvest" both organic and synthetic life.

Also I don't think one could say that the Geth were actualy created by organics, it was more like the miracle of life. A random unintended process. The Quarrians only built cheap inexpensive robotic labour. The Geth then self optimized their functionality, eventualy that selfoptimization lead to the creation of AI inteligence and questions and behaviour that scarred the Quarrians because it wasn't what they had intended or somethign they would have allowed. They just didn't think it would or could happen.
In their mind Life just doesn't evolve out of synthetic materials.
Like DNA randomly links together and reproduces on deadworlds and asteroids until it's everywhere.

Really the galaxy would throw a fit becasue they were leaving? Not likely they had the veil quarintined off no one knew anything. They also didn't have to wait 300 years to move either if it was about finding a place away from our galaxy they could've dispatchd a few ships and moved out in under 100 years and do so without anyone being the wiser.

If anything was suddently going to happen after the geth moved it would've been a land grab once someone got the idea the geth no longer occupied the planet and then the Quarians would be fighting them over their own homeworld.

Yes you are correct that people stayed away from geth space after the intial peace ships got blown up a few crazy people of the long standoff decided to try and again got blown up. Everyone knew to stay away and that the geth didn't want peace them blowing up outside ship and cliaming they're peaceful doesn't do anything to reinforce their side of that argument and when the galaxy have the "bad" geth running around gunning them down they will auto lump in the veil defenders and the bad geth into one group becasue again they do nothing to show the world they are good they only build Legion and expect he'll be enough to correct several hundered years worth of bad publicity.

Now that you bring up the reapers if the geth were good like they claimed and only want peace with the organics they could've easily used the internet to spread rumors that Sov was a reaper and Saren was pioleting it. And why didn't they again move away? They don't care what happens to the organics they never warned them about Nazera coming to destroy them they let half their group go over to his side so again they have no reason to stay but contrivance you can't say they stayed for pity, or the help people once the invasion started by their actions they were fine to kick their feet up and watch the galaxy burn cuz they understood why half their members would want to go with the geth still not sounding like the good geth Legion claims they are.

As far as evolution goes they don't need a planet for that a space station works fine. Its not the air, dirt, and broken cities that make them evolve.

Them being content to hold onto a world of no value to them makes it conctrived they claim they're really smart yet they seem very dumb in this reguard we're afraid of the reapers and the evil mob of Quarians so we're going to stay on a world that is an easy target rather then pack it in and go to the astroid belt, the center of the galaxy, or some nebula where no one in the right mind would want to go and reapers will be hardpressed to fallow.

If you look at the galactic map the galaxy has been divided among the different sheres of interest held by organic species.
Earth space isn't jsut earth or Sol, it's a huge chunk of the galaxy claimed by humanity, same with Asari, turian, Salarian, Hanar, Elcor, Batarians and so on. They claim huge areas of space as their spheres of interest.
If the hanars or Volus wants to settle a planet in earth controled space then they have to negotiate for years, promising tax revenues to pay for space lawenforcement provided by the alliance. Supplies for passing by alliance fleets.
Export/import regulations and provisions.

The Geth has to saty in Geth/quarrian space or learn how to negotiate with organics and say. Hi! Were friendly AI's looking for a new homeworld, or maybe a couple, and maybe a few asteroid field mining rights!
Do you think the Alliance or Turans would have been interested in Geth neghbours in their space? What would the nogotiations have looked like? Export/import.... Supplies for the Host species naval ships? Laws and legislature?

I guess they could have moved from Rannoch but im pretty sure the Quarrians woudln't have been happy to have Geth in the same system, they would attack just as Legion predicted when you bring him to the Quarrian fleet for Talis trial. The biggest obstacle for the Geth is that they belive that the Quarrians will try to kill them 100% of the time if they think themselves capable of doing so.
And from the look of it the Quarrian homesystem has the only Relay leading out of Quarrian space.
By leaving the Quarrian system but not leaving Quarrian/Geth space they woudl have given up their only escape route out of what would have become Quarrian space after moving in.

The problem they had was that they truly had no safe place to go, and staying in the perseus veil and lettign the Quarrians take over the relay system woudl have been a very dangerous and almost suicidal move. The relay itself makes that system a very valuable tactical asset. Unlike systems like the Elcors homesystem or the Volus homeworld that has no relay.

[shodiswe]

silverexile17s wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

Also, the argument about the Geth being able to move from Rannoch and old Quarrian space.

If they would have done so all of a sudden then every organic race in the galaxy would have assumed they were attempting expansion and invited a giant boot from the council to step on them. The more contact they attemt the more trouble they risk stiring up.
Also after sendign their initial ambassador or ambassadors the Council probably stayed out of Geth space for the centuries to come, except for, possibly a few spy probes and similar. They also had very specific orders for the rest of the galaxy not to provoke the geth.

To the geth it probably feelt safest to keep the status quo until the Reapers showed up. An almost unstoppable all destroying force.

Before that, they probably thought they could evolve themselves, and studdy organics for millenia to understand them better.

For some reason they restored Rannochs wildlife the best they could.

They were content where they were and since the council and organics didn't attack they probably didn't want to change anything until they were forced to. The Heretics made the Geth send Legion to act as an Ambassador for the true Geth, probably because they feared that Organics would see it as an all out Geth attack on Organics and then rush in and annihilate all Geth. They also feared the Reapers who would "harvest" both organic and synthetic life.

Also I don't think one could say that the Geth were actualy created by organics, it was more like the miracle of life. A random unintended process. The Quarrians only built cheap inexpensive robotic labour. The Geth then self optimized their functionality, eventualy that selfoptimization lead to the creation of AI inteligence and questions and behaviour that scarred the Quarrians because it wasn't what they had intended or somethign they would have allowed. They just didn't think it would or could happen.
In their mind Life just doesn't evolve out of synthetic materials.
Like DNA randomly links together and reproduces on deadworlds and asteroids until it's everywhere.

Who says they had to leave the veil entierly? Why not just Rannoch? Couldn't they have taken another world, one the quarians either didn't want, or couldn't live on anyway? Haestrom, perhaps? And there were several other quarian systems where that dyson sphere could have been built. Why Rannoch's star?
And look what total ioslation brought them. The difference is two extremes, but at least in one, there is a chance to change the view of others. It never changes if nobody tries.

And Legion was a spy, souly ment to locate Shepard, out of curiousity.

Letting a hostile force control the onyl relay system leading out of the Perseus veil sounds dangerous.
I wonder if the Humans or Turians woudl have feelt ok with letting someone else, who has tried to annihilate their species in the past gain control of such a valuable tactical asset and move into what could pretty much become a deathtrap.

[AlexMBrennan]

Geth pretty much get a sweeter deal all around.

Why? Quarians get back Rannoch in three of the four options you listed (of which the first two are actually identical).

I mean if the quarians are going to be made out to be the aggressors, couldn't the renegade option or maybe the option wheel take players on a path that would rewrite/enslave the geth?

Because that may not be possible. Legion "rewrote" the heretic geth by "pasting" the regular geth coded. The quarians don't necessarily have any docile/"slave" code - the original code certainly doesn't work.

And I can see why they didn't make it an option - Bioware is clearly trying very hard to portray machines as "alive", both for the Rannoch conflict and the tech singularity and Crucible choices. Judging from the forums, Bioware hasn't really succeeded here (e.g. I can't suspend enough disbelief to see the geth as anything other than fancy computers) but giving the player the option to rewrite the geth would undermine that idea.

[silverexile17s]

shodiswe wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

Also, the argument about the Geth being able to move from Rannoch and old Quarrian space.

If they would have done so all of a sudden then every organic race in the galaxy would have assumed they were attempting expansion and invited a giant boot from the council to step on them. The more contact they attemt the more trouble they risk stiring up.
Also after sendign their initial ambassador or ambassadors the Council probably stayed out of Geth space for the centuries to come, except for, possibly a few spy probes and similar. They also had very specific orders for the rest of the galaxy not to provoke the geth.

To the geth it probably feelt safest to keep the status quo until the Reapers showed up. An almost unstoppable all destroying force.

Before that, they probably thought they could evolve themselves, and studdy organics for millenia to understand them better.

For some reason they restored Rannochs wildlife the best they could.

They were content where they were and since the council and organics didn't attack they probably didn't want to change anything until they were forced to. The Heretics made the Geth send Legion to act as an Ambassador for the true Geth, probably because they feared that Organics would see it as an all out Geth attack on Organics and then rush in and annihilate all Geth. They also feared the Reapers who would "harvest" both organic and synthetic life.

Also I don't think one could say that the Geth were actualy created by organics, it was more like the miracle of life. A random unintended process. The Quarrians only built cheap inexpensive robotic labour. The Geth then self optimized their functionality, eventualy that selfoptimization lead to the creation of AI inteligence and questions and behaviour that scarred the Quarrians because it wasn't what they had intended or somethign they would have allowed. They just didn't think it would or could happen.
In their mind Life just doesn't evolve out of synthetic materials.
Like DNA randomly links together and reproduces on deadworlds and asteroids until it's everywhere.

Who says they had to leave the veil entierly? Why not just Rannoch? Couldn't they have taken another world, one the quarians either didn't want, or couldn't live on anyway? Haestrom, perhaps? And there were several other quarian systems where that dyson sphere could have been built. Why Rannoch's star?
And look what total ioslation brought them. The difference is two extremes, but at least in one, there is a chance to change the view of others. It never changes if nobody tries.

And Legion was a spy, souly ment to locate Shepard, out of curiousity.

Letting a hostile force control the onyl relay system leading out of the Perseus veil sounds dangerous.
I wonder if the Humans or Turians woudl have feelt ok with letting someone else, who has tried to annihilate their species in the past gain control of such a valuable tactical asset and move into what could pretty much become a deathtrap.

Heastrom had a relay as well, and it's clearly stated by Kal'Reegar as being in geth space.
There were SEVERAL relays in quarian/geth space.
And that ONLY explains the last 5 or so years. What about the other 300 that the geth could have used?

Modifié par silverexile17s, 08 février 2013 - 07:51 .

[shodiswe]

silverexile17s wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

Also, the argument about the Geth being able to move from Rannoch and old Quarrian space.

If they would have done so all of a sudden then every organic race in the galaxy would have assumed they were attempting expansion and invited a giant boot from the council to step on them. The more contact they attemt the more trouble they risk stiring up.
Also after sendign their initial ambassador or ambassadors the Council probably stayed out of Geth space for the centuries to come, except for, possibly a few spy probes and similar. They also had very specific orders for the rest of the galaxy not to provoke the geth.

To the geth it probably feelt safest to keep the status quo until the Reapers showed up. An almost unstoppable all destroying force.

Before that, they probably thought they could evolve themselves, and studdy organics for millenia to understand them better.

For some reason they restored Rannochs wildlife the best they could.

They were content where they were and since the council and organics didn't attack they probably didn't want to change anything until they were forced to. The Heretics made the Geth send Legion to act as an Ambassador for the true Geth, probably because they feared that Organics would see it as an all out Geth attack on Organics and then rush in and annihilate all Geth. They also feared the Reapers who would "harvest" both organic and synthetic life.

Also I don't think one could say that the Geth were actualy created by organics, it was more like the miracle of life. A random unintended process. The Quarrians only built cheap inexpensive robotic labour. The Geth then self optimized their functionality, eventualy that selfoptimization lead to the creation of AI inteligence and questions and behaviour that scarred the Quarrians because it wasn't what they had intended or somethign they would have allowed. They just didn't think it would or could happen.
In their mind Life just doesn't evolve out of synthetic materials.
Like DNA randomly links together and reproduces on deadworlds and asteroids until it's everywhere.

Who says they had to leave the veil entierly? Why not just Rannoch? Couldn't they have taken another world, one the quarians either didn't want, or couldn't live on anyway? Haestrom, perhaps? And there were several other quarian systems where that dyson sphere could have been built. Why Rannoch's star?
And look what total ioslation brought them. The difference is two extremes, but at least in one, there is a chance to change the view of others. It never changes if nobody tries.

And Legion was a spy, souly ment to locate Shepard, out of curiousity.

Letting a hostile force control the onyl relay system leading out of the Perseus veil sounds dangerous.
I wonder if the Humans or Turians woudl have feelt ok with letting someone else, who has tried to annihilate their species in the past gain control of such a valuable tactical asset and move into what could pretty much become a deathtrap.

Heastrom had a relay as well, and it's clearly stated by Kal'Reegar as being in geth space.
There were SEVERAL relays in quarian/geth space.
And that ONLY explains the last 5 or so years. What about the other 300 that the geth could have used?

I don't know about several, but even so most of the relays in the glaxy only connects to certain relays, it's unclear what relays connects to the outside of Geth space.
Also Halestrom doesn't seem like a good idea for collonozation by anyone seeing as the star is dying at a rapid pace. That will likely affect the relay in that system and whatever that relay connects to, there is no guarantee that the relay will survive, one propelled asteroid could destroy a relay in "Arrival".
It's likely that relay wont survice and relays connectign through that particular relay will likely go dead and get cut of. How many more relay are there that actualy connects outside the perseus veil other than the one in the quarrian home starsystem, and possibly Halestrom assuming that didn't connect through the Rannoch system and reroute to halestrom and both the quarrians and Shepard got there by using Stealth ships. Shepard had the normandy and the Quarrians had the normandy tech ripoff ship.

I don't doubt that the Quarrians used a stealth ship in Halestrom to attemt to land unnoticed. Otherwise the geth woudl have seen it immeditely and shot it down on approach.

How many of the relays are promary relays that connects the veil with the rest of the galaxy? and how many of them are the local transit types? the secondary relays?  I would say that whoever controls the primary relays controls a secor of space, and I doubt the Geth or Quarrians would be particulary fond of the idea of the other controling the primary relay/s.
If there is only one primary relay, a bottleneck... Then we got a deffinate problem right there... How can two species that don't trust each other share that?
It's not jsut as simpel as what one need and the other doesn't need when both wants to ensure their own survival and both think they need control of their own personal security.

The Quarrians don't trust the Geth and the Geth have no reason to trust the Quarrians. This is the problem.


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Specifications data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIABAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAEALAAAAAABAAEAQAICTAEAOw%3D%3DEdit
Mass relays consist of two fifteen-kilometer long curved metal arms surrounding a set of revolving, gyroscopic rings five-kilometers across. These rings contain a massive, blue-glowing core of element zero. The relays are made of an unknown but incredibly resilient material, the same material that the Citadel is built from, and are protected by a quantum shield that renders them nearly impervious to damage by locking their structure in place at the subatomic level. They are even capable of surviving a supernova's wake without being damaged. They are "cold" objects that don't emit heat or radiation, unlike starships, making them difficult to find if their position changes. Some relays, like the Charon Relay, are "gravitationally anchored" to planets; others appear to be out in space and are carefully tracked.

Mass relays function by creating a virtually mass-free "corridor" of space-time between each other. This can propel a starship across enormous distances that would take centuries to traverse, even at FTL speeds. Before a vessel can travel, the relay must be given the amount of mass to transit by the ship's pilot before it is moved into the approach corridor. When a relay is activated, it aligns itself with the corresponding relay before propelling the ship across space.
There are two kinds of mass relay, primary and secondary. Primary relays can propel a ship thousands of light years but only link to one other relay, its "partner". Secondary relays can link to any other relay over shorter distances, only a few hundred light years. After the Rachni Wars, space faring species won't open a primary relay without knowing where it links to, in case they run into another powerful and hostile species like the rachni. This caused a rift when the turians found human pioneers, ignorant of this Citadel Council prohibition, trying to open any mass relay they could find while exploring the relay network, eventually leading to the First Contact War.
Many mass relays are currently dormant for unknown reasons, though they can be easily reactivated. A Prothean data cache found on Mars led humans to a mass relay encased in ice and orbiting Pluto, previously thought to be a moon called Charon, which the Charon Relay was eventually named after.
A piece of Prothean artwork depicting a mass relay, the Relay Monument, can be found on the Citadel Presidium. It has been interpreted as either a symbol of Prothean vanity, expressing the relays as their means to build a galaxy-wide empire, or possibly as a symbol of galactic unity, which the relay network also embodies. Tali'Zorah nar Rayya claims that after their long voyage through the galaxy, the quarians have also come to appreciate the aesthetic value of the mass relays.

Modifié par shodiswe, 08 février 2013 - 08:09 .

[shodiswe]

Would you trust a species that tried to annihilate your species once? and who still, possibly wants to do that or enslave you.

Or would you trust a species that killed a lot of your peopel while rebelling for the sake of thier survival and drove your species of your homeworld?

There is a lacking of trust from both sides and they both have good reasons to distrust the others. In ME2 Legion even mentioned that maybe, one day the "creators" could be allowed to return.

But the problem is, that both sides are stuck.

[silverexile17s]

shodiswe wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

Also, the argument about the Geth being able to move from Rannoch and old Quarrian space.

If they would have done so all of a sudden then every organic race in the galaxy would have assumed they were attempting expansion and invited a giant boot from the council to step on them. The more contact they attemt the more trouble they risk stiring up.
Also after sendign their initial ambassador or ambassadors the Council probably stayed out of Geth space for the centuries to come, except for, possibly a few spy probes and similar. They also had very specific orders for the rest of the galaxy not to provoke the geth.

To the geth it probably feelt safest to keep the status quo until the Reapers showed up. An almost unstoppable all destroying force.

Before that, they probably thought they could evolve themselves, and studdy organics for millenia to understand them better.

For some reason they restored Rannochs wildlife the best they could.

They were content where they were and since the council and organics didn't attack they probably didn't want to change anything until they were forced to. The Heretics made the Geth send Legion to act as an Ambassador for the true Geth, probably because they feared that Organics would see it as an all out Geth attack on Organics and then rush in and annihilate all Geth. They also feared the Reapers who would "harvest" both organic and synthetic life.

Also I don't think one could say that the Geth were actualy created by organics, it was more like the miracle of life. A random unintended process. The Quarrians only built cheap inexpensive robotic labour. The Geth then self optimized their functionality, eventualy that selfoptimization lead to the creation of AI inteligence and questions and behaviour that scarred the Quarrians because it wasn't what they had intended or somethign they would have allowed. They just didn't think it would or could happen.
In their mind Life just doesn't evolve out of synthetic materials.
Like DNA randomly links together and reproduces on deadworlds and asteroids until it's everywhere.

Who says they had to leave the veil entierly? Why not just Rannoch? Couldn't they have taken another world, one the quarians either didn't want, or couldn't live on anyway? Haestrom, perhaps? And there were several other quarian systems where that dyson sphere could have been built. Why Rannoch's star?
And look what total ioslation brought them. The difference is two extremes, but at least in one, there is a chance to change the view of others. It never changes if nobody tries.

And Legion was a spy, souly ment to locate Shepard, out of curiousity.

Letting a hostile force control the onyl relay system leading out of the Perseus veil sounds dangerous.
I wonder if the Humans or Turians woudl have feelt ok with letting someone else, who has tried to annihilate their species in the past gain control of such a valuable tactical asset and move into what could pretty much become a deathtrap.

Heastrom had a relay as well, and it's clearly stated by Kal'Reegar as being in geth space.
There were SEVERAL relays in quarian/geth space.
And that ONLY explains the last 5 or so years. What about the other 300 that the geth could have used?

I don't know about several, but even so most of the relays in the glaxy only connects to certain relays, it's unclear what relays connects to the outside of Geth space.
Also Halestrom doesn't seem like a good idea for collonozation by anyone seeing as the star is dying at a rapid pace. That will likely affect the relay in that system and whatever that relay connects to, there is no guarantee that the relay will survive, one propelled asteroid could destroy a relay in "Arrival".
It's likely that relay wont survice and relays connectign through that particular relay will likely go dead and get cut of. How many more relay are there that actualy connects outside the perseus veil other than the one in the quarrian home starsystem, and possibly Halestrom assuming that didn't connect through the Rannoch system and reroute to halestrom and both the quarrians and Shepard got there by using Stealth ships. Shepard had the normandy and the Quarrians had the normandy tech ripoff ship.

I don't doubt that the Quarrians used a stealth ship in Halestrom to attemt to land unnoticed. Otherwise the geth woudl have seen it immeditely and shot it down on approach.

How many of the relays are promary relays that connects the veil with the rest of the galaxy? and how many of them are the local transit types? the secondary relays?  I would say that whoever controls the primary relays controls a secor of space, and I doubt the Geth or Quarrians would be particulary fond of the idea of the other controling the primary relay/s.
If there is only one primary relay, a bottleneck... Then we got a deffinate problem right there... How can two species that don't trust each other share that?
It's not jsut as simpel as what one need and the other doesn't need when both wants to ensure their own survival and both think they need control of their own personal security.

The Quarrians don't trust the Geth and the Geth have no reason to trust the Quarrians. This is the problem.


**************

Specifications data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIABAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAEALAAAAAABAAEAQAICTAEAOw%3D%3DEdit
Mass relays consist of two fifteen-kilometer long curved metal arms surrounding a set of revolving, gyroscopic rings five-kilometers across. These rings contain a massive, blue-glowing core of element zero. The relays are made of an unknown but incredibly resilient material, the same material that the Citadel is built from, and are protected by a quantum shield that renders them nearly impervious to damage by locking their structure in place at the subatomic level. They are even capable of surviving a supernova's wake without being damaged. They are "cold" objects that don't emit heat or radiation, unlike starships, making them difficult to find if their position changes. Some relays, like the Charon Relay, are "gravitationally anchored" to planets; others appear to be out in space and are carefully tracked.

Mass relays function by creating a virtually mass-free "corridor" of space-time between each other. This can propel a starship across enormous distances that would take centuries to traverse, even at FTL speeds. Before a vessel can travel, the relay must be given the amount of mass to transit by the ship's pilot before it is moved into the approach corridor. When a relay is activated, it aligns itself with the corresponding relay before propelling the ship across space.
There are two kinds of mass relay, primary and secondary. Primary relays can propel a ship thousands of light years but only link to one other relay, its "partner". Secondary relays can link to any other relay over shorter distances, only a few hundred light years. After the Rachni Wars, space faring species won't open a primary relay without knowing where it links to, in case they run into another powerful and hostile species like the rachni. This caused a rift when the turians found human pioneers, ignorant of this Citadel Council prohibition, trying to open any mass relay they could find while exploring the relay network, eventually leading to the First Contact War.
Many mass relays are currently dormant for unknown reasons, though they can be easily reactivated. A Prothean data cache found on Mars led humans to a mass relay encased in ice and orbiting Pluto, previously thought to be a moon called Charon, which the Charon Relay was eventually named after.
A piece of Prothean artwork depicting a mass relay, the Relay Monument, can be found on the Citadel Presidium. It has been interpreted as either a symbol of Prothean vanity, expressing the relays as their means to build a galaxy-wide empire, or possibly as a symbol of galactic unity, which the relay network also embodies. Tali'Zorah nar Rayya claims that after their long voyage through the galaxy, the quarians have also come to appreciate the aesthetic value of the mass relays.

Still, there were other systems that could have been used. There was a star, Ma-at, that was a neghiboring star to Dholan (Haestrom's star), that doesn't really seem that bad off. Similar to Rannoch's star.
I just don't understand why Rannoch's star was so much better to build the megastructure around then any of the other systems the geth took.
And the geth already have a massive colony station around one of the gas giants neighboring Heastrom, and they even have a base on the world itself, according to the in-game description.
And Matriarch Benezia said that the last relay caught in a  supernova was the Mu Relay, which was propelled out of the system it was in, but not destroyed. Perhaps only physical trauma, like large solid-matter based objects, can cause damage? So in other words, supernovas wouldn't damage the relays at all. And the geth got to Haestrom just fine, so there must be other connecting relays.
And the Far Rim relay connects to other worlds, and is listed as in geth space, which would be within the Veil. There are other relays that connect to the Perseus Vail.

And they didn't shoot the Normandy down, and it was right at the doorstep of Heretic HQ. So I don't think the quarians would have that much trouble, especally since Xen's tech blocks out the geth's sensors and leaves them blind.

Haestrom and Rannoch both have primaries that work. As stated above from Matriacrh Benezia in ME1, supernovas won't damage the relays.
And the point is that the geth would have at least been out of the way, with no reason to go through them. Instead, the geth are right in the way to Rannoch.

[silverexile17s]

shodiswe wrote...

Would you trust a species that tried to annihilate your species once? and who still, possibly wants to do that or enslave you.

Or would you trust a species that killed a lot of your peopel while rebelling for the sake of thier survival and drove your species of your homeworld?

There is a lacking of trust from both sides and they both have good reasons to distrust the others. In ME2 Legion even mentioned that maybe, one day the "creators" could be allowed to return.

But the problem is, that both sides are stuck.

I know that, but the geth still never openly broadcast that emotion over the 300 years between the Morning War, and the Rannoch War. They can't have expected the quarians to have telepathy and magically know what they felt.
Their isolation is just as much a factor in creating this war as anything else.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 08 février 2013 - 10:37 .

[shodiswe]

The thing is, both sides got issues to work out. The quarrians their want to annihilate the Geth or Enslave them.. And the Geth beliving the Quarrians can be trusted.

I don't belive either of them are evil for the sake of it, but they don't trust each other. They got history together and a lot of bad blood and back talking.

Maybe if we get a peace between them, they can work it out over time. Same with the Krogan.

Sometimes I even suspect the Salarians will go crazy.. But it all remains to be seen. Anyone in the Mass effect universe of any species can become a Villain for whatever reason.

[silverexile17s]

shodiswe wrote...

The thing is, both sides got issues to work out. The quarrians their want to annihilate the Geth or Enslave them.. And the Geth beliving the Quarrians can be trusted.

I don't belive either of them are evil for the sake of it, but they don't trust each other. They got history together and a lot of bad blood and back talking.

Maybe if we get a peace between them, they can work it out over time. Same with the Krogan.

Sometimes I even suspect the Salarians will go crazy.. But it all remains to be seen. Anyone in the Mass effect universe of any species can become a Villain for whatever reason.

Fair point, except it's that the geth have trust issues. They trust NO ONE beside themselves. Hence why they enforced their isolation at gunpoint to anyone that got a hair's breath to the Veil.
The quarians are agressive. The geth are sedentary. Both sides have flaws. I just hate all the flack that the quarians take - especally when there is alot that is unfounded.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 09 février 2013 - 07:55 .

[CynicalShep]

shodiswe wrote...

The thing is, both sides got issues to work out. The quarrians their want to annihilate the Geth or Enslave them.. And the Geth beliving the Quarrians can be trusted.

I don't belive either of them are evil for the sake of it, but they don't trust each other. They got history together and a lot of bad blood and back talking.

Maybe if we get a peace between them, they can work it out over time. Same with the Krogan.

Sometimes I even suspect the Salarians will go crazy.. But it all remains to be seen. Anyone in the Mass effect universe of any species can become a Villain for whatever reason.

Salarians were always the race I trusted the least in the MEU.

[Auld Wulf]

There are still some arguments being missed, here.

I'll number these as people seem to like that.

1.) There's absolutely no evidence that the geth were responsible for lots of deaths in the Morning War. Some, yes, but not the majority. Look at what Gerrel does with civilian ships (forces them to die for the glorious admiralty), and look at how the consensus conveys the quarian military. It's very likely that the quarian military were responsible for killing the majority either by offing those who sided with the geth, or by forcing the civilians to take up arms (ruling by fear). The geth weren't as intelligent back then, and separated they'd be even less so. They were driven by basic animal fears and desires - one of the primary ones being to survive.

So the point here is is that whilst people would love to paint the geth as villains, there is no evidence of it. There is, however, evidence that the quarian military was made up of homicidal crazies (the consensus and everything Gerrel does/says). I mean, to raise the point again, Gerrel is happy to kill Shepard if it means destroying a geth ship in the process. Whereas all the non-heretical geth have done is reach out to try and achieve peace (Legion et al).

2.) The geth didn't want Rannoch, it was just the only option they had at the time due to limited intelligence/resources. After that, they remained on Rannoch to clean up the mess created by the war and to care for the eco-system, Legion tells you that. And finally, feeling like their job was done, the non-heretical geth freely left Rannoch for the quarians to retake. They were building a dyson sphere so that they could co-exist peacefully and not have to interfere with the quarians.

All they wanted was their dyson sphere. They didn't want the reapers, then. They didn't want to war with the quarians. They just wanted to build a super-structure where they could have had their happily ever after. But their hopes and dreams were all for naught, their super-structure was destroyed. By whom, you might ask? Was it the reapers? Nope. Was it by bandits from the terminus systems? Nope. The quarians did it, because Gerrel said so.

The point is here is that the geth were leaving Rannoch. The quarians could have just waited for the super-structure to be completed (and they were over 90% done with it) before simply moving onto Rannoch without any conflict. But no, Gerrel wasn't having any of that. He blew up the super-structure and started hunting geth. He chased the geth into the open, protective arms of the reapers.

My points with 1 and 2 is that the geth, according to canon and evidence, were never seen as the aggressors. The quarians struck the first blow, the quarian military killed people and forced people to fight, the geth wanted to give Rannoch back to the quarians but the quarian military blew up their dyson sphere, the geth wanted peace with organics (hence Legion) but the quarian military hunted them so much that their only options were to turn to the reapers, or die.

I'm sorry, but as I've pointed out, the quarian military is almost a one-dimensional, moustache-twirling definition of evil, and this includes Gerrel. All the geth ever wanted was peace. All the geth asked was whether they had a soul, and that was enough to make the quarian military go batpoop insane. The geth have always been victims.

This is why I'm getting undertones of it being metaphorically similar to rights wars throughout our own history. There was a time when many people saw certain ethnicities as not having a soul, this was an excuse to kill, abuse, and enslave them. Did they do anything to earn that hate? No, no they didn't. Were they ever the aggressors? No, they weren't. All they wanted was co-existence and equal rights, it took a number of particularly awe-inspiring and sublime individuals to change that.

I'm sure that, back then, slavery and death were good options for those of lesser ethnicities. From the perspective of all powerful caucasians, of course. And I'm betting that there are some in this thread that would be completely okay with that. But me? I'm not, and I can't help but see parallels in the Mass Effect storyline. That's why I can't side with enslaving or destroying the geth, because metaphorically that means I pardon and am even okay with certain similar actions found within humanity's past. I'm sure some of you are okay with this, but my Shepard remembers, my Shepard would never condone genocide or slavery.

Not ever.

Modifié par Auld Wulf, 09 février 2013 - 08:23 .

[DeinonSlayer]

[quote]Auld Wulf wrote...

There are still some arguments being missed, here.

I'll number these as people seem to like that.

1.) There's absolutely no evidence that the geth were responsible for lots of deaths in the Morning War.[/quote]"We accept the creators' hate. We did them great harm in the Morning War."
~ Legion (bear in mind, is Legion speaking for himself, or for the Consensus to which he is not currently connected? He learned a lot in his travels, and these lessons don't get passed back to them unless he survives the events of ME2 and returns to the Geth)

"We maintain mobile platforms to clear rubble and toxins from the Morning War."
~ Legion

Toxins from a war that occurred three centuries ago. A weapon of war which would be useless against a synthetic enemy, but excels at killing large numbers of organics in a very short period of time (the war lasted a single year and claimed 99% of the Quarian species). Rannoch's codex entry says the Geth are repairing "ecological damage" from the war. And yet:

"The Krogan bombed their own world into this condition. The Creators were not so aggressive in the Morning War."
"We expected to get our worlds back. We didn't want to destroy them!"
~ Tali & Legion on Tuchanka

[quote]Some, yes, but not the majority.[/quote]"The Geth killed billions and drove my people from our homeworld. Most Quarians believe we have paid adequately for our mistake."
~ Tali, ME1 elevator conversation

"The quarians had neither the numbers nor the ability to stand against their former servants. In a short but savage war their entire society was wiped out. Only a few million survivors-less than one percent of their entire population-escaped the genocide, fleeing their home world in a massive fleet, refugees forced to live in exile."
~ Mass Effect: Revelation, page 116

"My bondmate was killed on the Quarian homeworld in the initial Geth uprising."
~ Erinya

"The Rachni consumed Salarian colonies. The Quarians endured the unthinkable slaughter of the Morning War."
~ Editorial heard in the Spectre office

(On exterminating the Quarians) "Why not? Our fleet is massive. We can support Shepard's fight against the Old Machines... if the Creators no longer threaten us."
~ Geth VI

""The Quarians' historical error was not making the Geth like them. Units with networked intelligences will trend toward cooperation for mutual benefit, but units with central heuristics establishing an individual personality, such as myself, develop preferences. These preferences form attachments that keep my calculations from devaluing the worth of the lives aboard the Normandy."
"You're saying the Geth turned on the Quarians because they aren't individuals?"
~ EDI and Shepard, post-Rannoch

[quote]Look at what Gerrel does with civilian ships (forces them to die for the glorious admiralty)[/quote]<_<

We've been over the logistics situation. Suffice to say, the Fleet has no choice but to move as a whole. You can't just send in the military ships because they depend on daily shipments of food from the liveships. Also, the map description of the Migrant Fleet says "it is a testament to the Quarians' strategic skill that their numbers have not dropped significantly since the start of the conflict." Doesn't sound to me like they were using Soviet-style "human waves," though the Codex does say the Geth use that tactic because they don't actually die when a platform is decommissioned.

[quote]and look at how the consensus conveys the quarian military.[/quote]Oh, so we're taking the Geth's word for it now in spite of Legion's constant lies of omission?

Biased source is biased.

[quote]It's very likely that the quarian military were responsible for killing the majority either by offing those who sided with the geth, or by forcing the civilians to take up arms (ruling by fear).[/quote]Headcanon. We see one death, shown to us in an environment where even the gun in your hands is an illusion, and from that you construe a quarian-on-quarian genocide. Incidentally, the Geth VI doesn't acknowledge the Quarians who died defending Geth in any way.

[quote]The geth weren't as intelligent back then, and separated they'd be even less so. They were driven by basic animal fears and desires - one of the primary ones being to survive.[/quote]Which they achieved using the means the Geth VI uses. Kill everything that could be a threat - in this case, the Quarians, as a species, and any organic seen entering the Veil later on.

[quote]So the point here is is that whilst people would love to paint the geth as villains, there is no evidence of it.[/quote]None that you've acknowledged, anyway. You won't accept any which conflicts with your "quarian military = crazy" headcanon.

[quote]There is, however, evidence that the quarian military was made up of homicidal crazies (the consensus and everything Gerrel does/says).[/quote]And there it is again. We've explained Gerrel's actions to you; you refuse to consider the arguments presented and accept the (arguably suspect) word of the aggrieved party (which has an interest in gaining your sympathy) as irrefutable fact.

"The minds of both forms of life can be shaped. Organics require time and effort. For synthetics, the replacement of a data file is the only requirement."
~ Legion, A House Divided

[quote]I mean, to raise the point again, Gerrel is happy to kill Shepard if it means destroying a geth ship in the process.[/quote]Because he has no idea when that ship will come back online again, only he knows that if it does, it'll go tearing through the Migrant Fleet again and this time no one will be able to stop it. Same as Hackett taking down Sovereign with Shepard and company right next to it in the Citadel Tower. It was a tactical decision.

"You did the right thing. Just give me a heads-up next time."
~ Shepard

I doubt Koris' crew appreciates being abandoned to the Geth later on, but like with the dreadnought, it serviced the greater objective.

"We can save dozens now or millions later, Admiral. It's your call."
~ Shepard

[quote]Whereas all the non-heretical geth have done is reach out to try and achieve peace (Legion et al).[/quote]Legion is the only attempt the Geth have made to communicate in three centuries. They've shot down every diplomatic vessel to enter the Veil, from the end of the Morning War to present-day, without so much as responding to hails. The Codex tells you this. The books tell you this. ME1 dialogue tells you this. The conversation with Shepard and Legion in ME2 tells you this.

"You mean you aren't even trying to make peace?"

or,

"Nothing gets solved if you hide behind the Veil and let them hate you."

[quote]2.) The geth didn't want Rannoch, it was just the only option they had at the time due to limited intelligence/resources. After that, they remained on Rannoch to clean up the mess created by the war and to care for the eco-system, Legion tells you that. And finally, feeling like their job was done, the non-heretical geth freely left Rannoch for the quarians to retake. They were building a dyson sphere so that they could co-exist peacefully and not have to interfere with the quarians.[/quote]Is that why they shot down anyone who entered their territory on sight for centuries without making any communications? Is that why they never even communicated to the wider galaxy that the Heretics were not a part of them, and why they did nothing about the Heretics until two years later when they were the ones the Heretics threatened? Is that why Legion severed communication with Tali before the Quarian invasion? Neither side was doing much communicating, but it was the Geth who first cut ties.

The Geth have only ever cared about their own self-interest. The same can be said of others, but don't try to paint them as angelic paladins.

[quote]All they wanted was their dyson sphere. They didn't want the reapers, then. They didn't want to war with the quarians.[/quote]They just occupied the world they were physiologically dependent on and killed anyone who came near it. Why couldn't they have chosen a different star in their territory as the site for their dyson project, instead of the one that planet depended on?

[quote]They just wanted to build a super-structure where they could have had their happily ever after. But their hopes and dreams were all for naught, their super-structure was destroyed. By whom, you might ask? Was it the reapers? Nope. Was it by bandits from the terminus systems? Nope. The quarians did it, because Gerrel said so.[/quote]In a war spurred by the invasion of the Reapers themselves.

[quote]The point is here is that the geth were leaving Rannoch. The quarians could have just waited for the super-structure to be completed (and they were over 90% done with it)[/quote]Less than half done, actually, if you paid attention to the timeline for construction Legion laid out.

[quote]before simply moving onto Rannoch without any conflict.[/quote]They never extended an offer. Legion's mission was to find Shepard, to investigate the Heretics, not to make contact with the Migrant Fleet.

[quote]But no, Gerrel wasn't having any of that. He blew up the super-structure and started hunting geth. He chased the geth into the open, protective arms of the reapers.[/quote]Convenient that the Geth had one on-call before the Quarians invaded.

[quote]My points with 1 and 2 is that the geth, according to canon and evidence, were never seen as the aggressors.[/quote]Skynet was struck first, too.

[quote]The quarians struck the first blow,[/quote]In accordance with Council law on artificial intelligence. Not saying it's the right move, but there would have been repercussions if they hadn't.

[quote]the quarian military killed people[/quote]Person. How many, we can't say. Legion only says the dissidents were "outnumbered," not that they were killed.

[quote]and forced people to fight,[/quote]Headcanon, if you're referring to the Morning War. True if you're referring to the current war, but again, they (the military) don't have much choice in the matter. You can't divide the fleet, defend and feed it at the same time.

[quote]the geth wanted to give Rannoch back to the quarians[/quote]They have a funny way of showing it.

[quote]but the quarian military blew up their dyson sphere, the geth wanted peace with organics (hence Legion) but the quarian military hunted them so much that their only options were to turn to the reapers, or die.[/quote]See above.
[quote]I'm sorry, but as I've pointed out, the quarian military is almost a one-dimensional, moustache-twirling definition of evil, and this includes Gerrel.[/quote]If you devote no effort to considering their motives and embellish their means, perhaps.

[quote]All the geth ever wanted was peace. All the geth asked was whether they had a soul, and that was enough to make the quarian military go batpoop insane. The geth have always been victims.[/quote]The Geth were victims, yes - and they in turn created victims. They're not an innocent party here. If Legion makes it back to them, the MEU's version of Skynet has a change of heart. Compare Legion's attitudes and interpretation of what gets shown to you in the Consensus to what the VI has to say about it.

What it comes down to is, neither side had any reason to trust the other, and in the modern war, both acted out of desperation. You can't condemn one and protect the other for that.

[quote]This is why I'm getting undertones of it being metaphorically similar to rights wars throughout our own history. There was a time when many people saw certain ethnicities as not having a soul, this was an excuse to kill, abuse, and enslave them. Did they do anything to earn that hate? No, no they didn't. Were they ever the aggressors? No, they weren't. All they wanted was co-existence and equal rights, it took a number of particularly awe-inspiring and sublime individuals to change that.[/quote]That it did.

[quote]I'm sure that, back then, slavery and death were good options for those of lesser ethnicities. From the perspective of all powerful caucasians, of course.[/quote]Oh, so only whites have done that kind of thing now? And all powerful ones did? You do realize you just made a racist statement, right?

[quote]And I'm betting that there are some in this thread that would be completely okay with that.[/quote]Are you even capable of having a discussion without demonizing anyone who disagrees with you?

[quote]But me? I'm not, and I can't help but see parallels in the Mass Effect storyline. That's why I can't side with enslaving or destroying the geth, because metaphorically that means I pardon and am even okay with certain similar actions found within humanity's past. I'm sure some of you are okay with this, but my Shepard remembers, my Shepard would never condone genocide or slavery.

Not ever.[/quote]I'll try to put this as simply as I can. I have nothing against the Geth on account of what they are, what they're physically made of. I recognize them as living beings with certain rights. I find them conceptually fascinating, and was offended by the idea that they needed magical Reaper Pinocchio code to be alive - I didn't like the message that they could only coexist with organics by stripping themselves of what made them unique. Check out my alternate Rannoch campaign on page 3 of this thread.

I ultimately judge the Geth by their actions. Given that they're immortal, and the Quarians are X generations removed from the Morning War, that means I judge the Geth by what they did then, too.

If an Asari killed an entire family of Salarians because one of them attacked her, then evaded justice for several Salarian generations, she'd still be guilty of those murders centuries down the line when her actions finally caught up to her. I haven't forgotten what Samara says of her maidan years, having "killed people, mated with them and danced the night away." What crimes has she not answered for, which she's atoning for now by being a Justicar?

That's how I view the Geth. Legion is a reformed killer, who I give a second chance if I'm able to make peace. The Geth VI is an unrepentant one whom I have put down without hesitation or regret every single time. Legion's geth are eager to atone for their actions, but if it came down to a choice, I wouldn't choose a parolee over millions of civilians who wanted nothing to do with this mess. The VI's geth, on the other hand, are eager to finish the job - and earned every one of the bullets I put in its head.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 09 février 2013 - 10:04 .

[silverexile17s]

Auld Wulf wrote...

There are still some arguments being missed, here.

I'll number these as people seem to like that.

1.) There's absolutely no evidence that the geth were responsible for lots of deaths in the Morning War. Some, yes, but not the majority. Look at what Gerrel does with civilian ships (forces them to die for the glorious admiralty), and look at how the consensus conveys the quarian military. It's very likely that the quarian military were responsible for killing the majority either by offing those who sided with the geth, or by forcing the civilians to take up arms (ruling by fear). The geth weren't as intelligent back then, and separated they'd be even less so. They were driven by basic animal fears and desires - one of the primary ones being to survive.

So the point here is is that whilst people would love to paint the geth as villains, there is no evidence of it. There is, however, evidence that the quarian military was made up of homicidal crazies (the consensus and everything Gerrel does/says). I mean, to raise the point again, Gerrel is happy to kill Shepard if it means destroying a geth ship in the process. Whereas all the non-heretical geth have done is reach out to try and achieve peace (Legion et al).

2.) The geth didn't want Rannoch, it was just the only option they had at the time due to limited intelligence/resources. After that, they remained on Rannoch to clean up the mess created by the war and to care for the eco-system, Legion tells you that. And finally, feeling like their job was done, the non-heretical geth freely left Rannoch for the quarians to retake. They were building a dyson sphere so that they could co-exist peacefully and not have to interfere with the quarians.

All they wanted was their dyson sphere. They didn't want the reapers, then. They didn't want to war with the quarians. They just wanted to build a super-structure where they could have had their happily ever after. But their hopes and dreams were all for naught, their super-structure was destroyed. By whom, you might ask? Was it the reapers? Nope. Was it by bandits from the terminus systems? Nope. The quarians did it, because Gerrel said so.

The point is here is that the geth were leaving Rannoch. The quarians could have just waited for the super-structure to be completed (and they were over 90% done with it) before simply moving onto Rannoch without any conflict. But no, Gerrel wasn't having any of that. He blew up the super-structure and started hunting geth. He chased the geth into the open, protective arms of the reapers.

My points with 1 and 2 is that the geth, according to canon and evidence, were never seen as the aggressors. The quarians struck the first blow, the quarian military killed people and forced people to fight, the geth wanted to give Rannoch back to the quarians but the quarian military blew up their dyson sphere, the geth wanted peace with organics (hence Legion) but the quarian military hunted them so much that their only options were to turn to the reapers, or die.

I'm sorry, but as I've pointed out, the quarian military is almost a one-dimensional, moustache-twirling definition of evil, and this includes Gerrel. All the geth ever wanted was peace. All the geth asked was whether they had a soul, and that was enough to make the quarian military go batpoop insane. The geth have always been victims.

This is why I'm getting undertones of it being metaphorically similar to rights wars throughout our own history. There was a time when many people saw certain ethnicities as not having a soul, this was an excuse to kill, abuse, and enslave them. Did they do anything to earn that hate? No, no they didn't. Were they ever the aggressors? No, they weren't. All they wanted was co-existence and equal rights, it took a number of particularly awe-inspiring and sublime individuals to change that.

I'm sure that, back then, slavery and death were good options for those of lesser ethnicities. From the perspective of all powerful caucasians, of course. And I'm betting that there are some in this thread that would be completely okay with that. But me? I'm not, and I can't help but see parallels in the Mass Effect storyline. That's why I can't side with enslaving or destroying the geth, because metaphorically that means I pardon and am even okay with certain similar actions found within humanity's past. I'm sure some of you are okay with this, but my Shepard remembers, my Shepard would never condone genocide or slavery.

Not ever.

Thsi is going to be long, since there is so much you are wrong on here.
First off, are you KIDDING? There were over 2 billion quarians pre-Morning War. That the quarians would kill themselves off on that large a scale is a retarded concept. 2 billion doesn't drop to less then 17 million is one year for no reason. The faction that resisted martial law were mostly protesters, and they were more likely locked up rather then killed. Look at the codex entry for the quarian worlds in the Tikkun system in ME3, and you'll see that even simple mining colonies were wiped out in the wake of the geth's assault.
Also, Legion admits that many quarian worlds are being treated for toxin damage, which is not something the quarians would risk on themselves, as there would have been to much possibilaty for major colateral damage. It would only make sense if the geth released those toxins, which would make sense since, given their weak immune systems, toxins and chemical weapons would be extremely effective against quarians.
And you REALLY intend to use five vid images to rationlize an entire year of conflict? There is nowhere near enough there to get a clear pciture of the Morning War.
And AGAIN, WRONG about Gerrel. There was NO CHOICE but to go to Rannoch, as the alternitive is to sit and pray that the Reapers don't find them. They can't help the other races as is, since the massive civilian population they'd have to drag with them means that they could nither split the fleet to tackle multiple fronts, nor could they transport resources and relief effectively, as they would either need it themselves, or be unable to carry any of it because there is no room on the ships, thanks to haveing the civilians with them. And there is no where esle the civilians CAN go. Because they're dextro-amino based, they could only effectively live on turian colonies, which are either overcrowded already, or under attack. Even if they weren't, they can barely handle thousands of people at a given time, and there are millions of quarians with strict diets and medical concerns. It's NOT going to work out. It wasn't for "glorious admiralty." It was so they would HAVE a future, PERIOD.
Rannoch has food they can eat, air they can breathe, land they can live on, rocky formations they can shelter in, and raw minerals untouched by the geth that they can use as their own fuel source for the fleet. Things that no one else has readily avalible for them, nor would be able to procure for them in a time of galactic war. They could only help the other races if they suddenly became self-sufficant, and they only way that could happen is if they suddenly got a world of there own. And guess what? Said world is sitting in the grasp of what are widely assumed by the entire galaxy to be Reaper allies.
It's easy to justify the geth's fighting back, but NOT their counterattacks. Rannoch fell at the end of the war, meaning that the geth already had many other quarian worlds, and had therefore broken the spine of both their military and economy. There was NO REASON to keep pushing, as the quarians were effectively neutrlized. And after all that, no one is able to comprehend why the quarians feel so bad for their treatemnt? They lost 99% of their race (spicifically stated as 99% dead in the book Mass Effect: Revelation) and got kicked off their world, and the Council sat back and let it all happen. Of COURSE they're going to be embittered by that.

So YES, there is MORE then enough evidence that the geth did wrong too, and trying to ignore that is a headcannon. They killed overzelously when the enemy was already beaten, then stayed isolated for 300 years, and somehow expected the quarians to magically know they weren't hostile, even though every ship that went into the Veil was blasted to bits without so much as a warning. They claim to have no ill will to organics, yet they let the Heretics go to run rampant in the Traverse, and tear the Citadel a new one, knowing full what was going to happen. They stayed isolated and let Palaven and Earth burn (ME3 spans at least six months. The quarian attack was 17 days before signaling Shepard for help, meaning it took place at around the time of the Cerberus Coup. So the geth were quite free at the time of the attack)
Face it: the geth are HARDLY inncoent.
And said geth ship is the flagship of the geth fleet over Rannoch, and it could come online any minuet and blast them, or come online as they are pulling out and blast them, or be reactivated not long after pulling out, in which it will hunt them down and blast them. And if the quarians pull out now, they risk the geth focusing on other races to aid the Reapers against, with that ship being one of them (peace wasn't the most likely option at the time). Any admiral worth his rank is going to chose the fate of 17 million - his entire race - over the fate of a single human. That's what "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few" means.
And again, the true geth turned let the Heretics run loose, and let the other races fend for themselves. After all, Legion NEVER syas that the geth were planing to help the other races. Just that they were prepping themselves. If anything, the geth were planning to ride the war out in classic geth isolation.

2. If the geth didn't want Rannoch, WHY did they launch the attack at the end of the war to take it, when they had other colonies already? (Haestrom is listed in it's discription as "one of the first colonies to fall," meaning the geth had several colonies well before taking Rannoch)
There was literally NO real need to take Rannoch. There were at least a half-dozen other systems the geth took from the quarians. What exactally made Rannoch's star so ideal for the Megastructure?
And that doesn't explain why the geth were building servers on Rannoch, or military bases like the AA guns, if they weren't planning to stay. Hell, a dyson sphere is an immobile construct. so if build, the geth could never leave Rannoch, and if compleated, the dyson sphere would absorbe vast ammounts of solar energy from the sun before it could ever reach Rannoch, which would kill many of the native plant life. And since Tali tells you that Rannoch has no insect life, and plant life is dependant on a symbiotic relationship with local mamals to carry seeds, the loss of so much solar energy to the megastructure would cause a severe blow to Rannoch's ecology, and make farming near impossible without greenhouses. The loss of solar energy could also negitively affect the climate of Rannoch, as there is less heat reaching the surface becuase there is less energy bringing it in, and because the megastructure would likely be partially blocking out the sunlight.
That megastructure is detrimental to Rannoch's ecology. The geth hardly seem to care, since it doesn't seem to affect them. If anything, returning Rannoch wasn't that high on the priority list, since without proper sunlight and solar energy, farming the necessery crops would have been extremely hard.
And the geth never televised this desire for peace. They never make any announcements regarding how they didn't agree with the Heretics' ideals, or that they opposed the Reapers.
And they Dyson sphere would have taken so much solar energy from Rannoch that farming would be effectivly impossible. And the quarians attacked Rannoch because there was no where else to put their civilians. No turian colony (the only places where dextro-aminos like them can go) would ahve been able to support 17 million beings that had strict and spicific helth and diatary needs. Something like that in war like this is impossible, even if there WAS a turian colony that wasn't either already under attack, or overcrouded past the limit.
If anything, that Dyson sphere would only ensure that the geth never leaved Rannoch, or the Tikkun system in general. Also, Legion indicates that the megastructure is far from finished by ME2.
And again, the geth said they were prepping for war, but Legion never says that the geth were ever going to help the other races. If anything, the geth planned to do this in the classic geth method of solitary isolation.
And even if the geth really weren't agressors, they likewise did nothing to diffuse the volitile and harsh opinions that the rest of the galaxy had on synthetics in general. They never let the quarians know that Rannoch was ever open for them, or ever tried talking with any other race, or offered any open apology, or even let anyone enter the Veil without shooting them on sight. The geth were too sedentary. Doing abo****ly nothing can be just as bad as making a bad choice, because at least then, you tried to do something about the current state of affairs. The geth do none of this.
Again, you are being biased against the quarians. Look at the above points about the quarians's motivations and reasoning. They were desperate, not evil, and Gerrel is no different an Admiral then Hackett. And the quarians were in the same place first. Take back Rannoch, or die, which force the geth to either side with the Reapers, or die. It's a domino effect, and it started with the fear of the Reapers.
They struck the first blow in the Morning War because they were afarid of the Council putting harsh sanctions, or outright censorship on them for accdently creating a race of A.I.s. Again, an act of desperation. If the geth were intelligent, then the Council would come in and punish them. And looking at what the Council considers fairness, that wouldn't be best.
And the geth counterattacked the quarians and forced them off the rest of their worlds when it wasn't nessessary.

And good grief, STOP akining this to human history. You are trying to draw in something that no one should be treading in lightly. And that's a conflict between other organic beings of the same species. Different then machines.
Mortal organic beings are born with natural rights. The geth were machines that were made to be tools with limbs. A machine is not expected to have that same ideal as an organic. An organic would naturally rebel against such treatment, but machines aren't expected to. They were originally no better then the computer, or other electronic device you are typing or right now to make these very comments. So NO, your agruement has NO bearing on this situation, as yours is between living beings with naturan instincts, and the geth had no such things in their creation. It's like what would happen if your computer started talking to you on it's own. It's not expected, and not what it was made to do, so of course you'll panic. That's what happened with the quarians and geth. The geth were spicifically built to not be living beings. Which is ironic.
And afterward, it seems that the quarians treat them as a thinking, sentiant race (albiet a hostile one).
So your slavery/racist comments have no purpose or bearing on the Morning War, or this conflict.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 09 février 2013 - 10:30 .

[shodiswe]

"The minds of both forms of life can be shaped. Organics require time and effort. For synthetics, the replacement of a data file is the only requirement."
~ Legion, A House Divided

That would be true for knowledge that a geth or the consensus has aquiered. There is also knowledge that AI's and Geth need time to learn and aquire. New experiences takes time. But having a story or information related to them by fellow geth might be fast. Legion had ot learn the slow way during those years he spent traveling the galaxy.
To me it would seem like Legion was out there investigating and studying organics before Shepard even killed a reaper, why else would he have gone to Eden prime in his search. Or maybe Legion was looking for answer as to what the Heretics and Nizara were up to.
Eden prime was where Legion took that gunshot to it's chest, right after the attack on the collony as I recall it was said.
Anyway im digressing. What I watned to say is that a lot of those quotes contains simplifications. Sometimes it's the truth sometimes it's a simplification of the truth.
At times Legion claims the Geth are superior at making tough decision yet it still takes his 1000+ personality subrutines what seems like an eternity to consider the Heretics problem on Legions Loyalty mission.
Both options would be a win for Legions Geth, still it's a tough call.
Giving the Quarrians their homeworld is harder, not because the Geth want's to keep the homeworld but because they want to ensure their own safety.
Being neighbour with a species that constantly shows they wants to kill them and who they know hates the Geth. They have no illusions as to the Quarrians view on Geth.
Let's jsut say it would be dangerous to give the Quarrians space superiority and control over the primary relays leadign to the perseus veil and Rannoch.
And if they don't do so I doubt the Quarrians would trust them and accept the offer. The Quarrians would no doubt want to control the relays leading in and out of the veil.
But by dong so the Geth would immediately put themselves at a tactical dissadvantage and allow a people who really wants to hurt Geth an advantage over them.

As for Geth and Legion being practicly immortal, new geth are created, do you know how many of them are the original geth? Do you know if Legion is one of the original Geth? maybe it's younger? Maybe it wasn't even born during the morning wars.
When Legion played up memories and sequences it was never Legions experiences, it was either downloaded from the Geth consensus through the extranet or from the Geth server during Shepards Visit inside the consensus.
Legion could be that old, there is that one picture of a Geth picking up a sniperrifle looking very much like the one Legion favours. It's not proof however and Legion doesn't admit it.

Claiming there is a difference between the Geth VI and Legion, yes I can see that.
And Legion learned new thigns and got to know organics better for the first tiem in three centuries, at which point their memories of organics mostly contaiend memories of organcis shooting at them.

Still other than that all Geth probrams don't seem to be identical, when it came to the Heretics on the loyalty mission they were conflicted, apparently having differing opinions. Some had either abstatiend or coudln't make up their mind.

The one thing you can be certain that all Geth agrees on however is that they don't want to die. They want to feel safe, the fear the Quarrians even if they don't want to admit having "emotions" but in the end, fear is an avertion to getting hurt. Doesn't matter if it's biochemical or electronic or whatever.

According to Legion they are restoring Rannoch, and they wouldn't mind returning the world to the Quarrians.. But they don't trust them.
So the talks get nowhere because they are afraid of yielding control of primary relays, the safety of their space. If they move aside in the veil they would become dependant on the good graces of the Quarrians. Would you trust the Quarrians if you were Geth?

If they look for a home outside the Veil it would be space that would be defacto property of another species and they would have a Galactic war on their hands, with the risk of enraging the whole hornet nest of organics in the galaxy that might fear an expansion attempt by the Geth.

Are the Geth moraly pure Palladins who never does anything wrong? No they are not.
Are the Quarrians moraly pure beign who never does anything wrong? No, not at all.

Who started every war? Who were the first to attack the other? The Quarrians.
Did the Quarrians persue peace? We havn't heard of any such attempts until after Tali meet Legion and Shepard pushes them in that direction.
Did the Geth persue Peace? Not until they got worried about the Reapers and started looking for solutions to their Reaper problem.
Did the Geth persue the Quarrians out of the Veil? No.
Did the Geth start a campaign of conquest across the galaxy liek the Krogan? No.

When someone is trying to kill you and you kill them instead does that make you a criminal? No, that's called selfdefence.

Did the Geth go beyond what was needed for selfdefence? Possibly. We know too little about the Morning war. We know the death count was staggering.

We also know the amount of dead Geth would have been equaly staggering had the Quarrians won.

It's possible that the only advantage the Geth could get over the Quarrians was chemical weapons, the Quarrians likely had most of the conventional weapons seeing as they were in charge.
Sabotaging chemical plants and other facilities to create biochemical spills that would drive the Quarrians away probably seemed efficient and once one Geth noticed that the Quarrians didn't like such thigns all of them probably got the idea of fighting the Quarrians with Biochemical weapons.
I can see the appeal if you're immune to it yourself but you arn't immue to the enemys bullets..
A lot of Sci-fi movies are about finding something that the "evil" aliens can't stand. Like Mars attacks thats a commedy/scifi movie, The martians can't stand a certain type of music that makes their heads explode.
What happens? Every last martial get's slaughtered by music! They were the offenders however.
The Martians fired the first shot, noone feels sorry for them. They were intruders, noone feels sorry for them. They were vicious and dishonorable.
But in a way it would seem the Quarrians were slightly like those Martians, it was the Quarrian homeworld however, but it was also the home of the Geth.

What happend happend, the Geth won, the Quarrians lost, and the Quarrians who got on a ship and left were "allowed" to leave.

If the Geth had lost, would they have been allowed to leave? or would they have been hunt down?

Secondly, had the war taken more than a year then it's likely the council had eventualy intervened. The council is however extremely slow and the quarrians probably did their best to keep the council out of it as long as possible. Seeing as the even was highly illegal to begin with.

In the end the Geth are no worse than the Quarrians.
The Quarrians are violent militaristic agressors while the Geth are extreme isolationinst that enforces their isolationism at gun point as someone said.

The truth is, the morning war was a war of annihilation. The goal was all out erradication of the other species. When the Geth won they let the Quarrians that could leave, leave. The Geth likely wouldn't have been given the same opportunity.

300 years later, the past matters less than it once did. Now as the galaxy is about to get wiped out by the Reapers the Quarrians throws them selves at the Geth.

Is it because they suddenly need it more than before or because they have been planning it for a very long time and were arguing about going to war back in ME2, Tali's trial was less about Tali and more about goign ot war against the Geth to "reclaim" the homeworld.
Somehow the Quarrians thoguht the timing was perfect since the Citadel council had told them not to provoke the Geth.
But the council races were now busy gettign slaughtered by the Reapers, so, the Quarrians didn't have to worry about what the Council thought about their warmongering and puttign the galaxy at risk.
The Quarrians took a risk/chance and they would have been annihilated had it not been for Shepard.

They knew that the "true" Geth had refused the Reapers request for aid in attacking the organic races. Yet they pushed the Geth right into the Reapers camp by forcing their hand. They only considered the Geth Heritic problem as a boon, a divided foe or nation is easier to conquer or destroy.
The Quarrians played the Reapers right into their hands.

It wouldn't surprise me if the Reapers or one of their agents were behind the Quarrians "secret" weapon. Something they hadn't been able to create for the past 300 years even if their dream had always been to retake the homeworld. Just to push the Geth into the hand of the Reapers and kill two birds with one stone.

The thing is, Xen's dream of enslaving the Geth is detestable, and that's what this thread was originaly about.
Destroying the Geth isn't much better. That's called Genocide, and it's the Quarrians second attempt at Genicide.

How can anyone pretend to be claiming the moral highground in a conflict like this?

[shodiswe]

Tbh, if the Geth would have been smart they wouldn't have cleaned up Rannoch or restored it at all.. But instead made it completely uninhabitable by anyone. That way they could have had the perseus Veil by their own and never had to fear anyone except for maybe the Reapers.

I guess there is a lesson to be learned here... Good deeds are never rewarded. They are instead a sign of weakness and a liability.

[silverexile17s]

shodiswe wrote...

Tbh, if the Geth would have been smart they wouldn't have cleaned up Rannoch or restored it at all.. But instead made it completely uninhabitable by anyone. That way they could have had the perseus Veil by their own and never had to fear anyone except for maybe the Reapers.

I guess there is a lesson to be learned here... Good deeds are never rewarded. They are instead a sign of weakness and a liability.

No, completely wrong.
From what Legion says, they clean up the toxins as a caretaker would clean a cematary. They feel they somewhat owe it to the quarians, because they created them, and because the geth themselves feel guilty for their own actions, and that they went too far in their retaliation against them in the Morning War.
Also, the "lesson" was that being too idle (geth) causes just as much harm as jumping the gun (quarians) can, and that it litarlly takes two to tango, as no war can be caused without there being more then one party.
In this case, the quarians desperation, and the geth's isolation.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 10 février 2013 - 12:29 .

[silverexile17s]

shodiswe wrote...

"The minds of both forms of life can be shaped. Organics require time and effort. For synthetics, the replacement of a data file is the only requirement."
~ Legion, A House Divided

That would be true for knowledge that a geth or the consensus has aquiered. There is also knowledge that AI's and Geth need time to learn and aquire. New experiences takes time. But having a story or information related to them by fellow geth might be fast. Legion had ot learn the slow way during those years he spent traveling the galaxy.
To me it would seem like Legion was out there investigating and studying organics before Shepard even killed a reaper, why else would he have gone to Eden prime in his search. Or maybe Legion was looking for answer as to what the Heretics and Nizara were up to.
Eden prime was where Legion took that gunshot to it's chest, right after the attack on the collony as I recall it was said.
Anyway im digressing. What I watned to say is that a lot of those quotes contains simplifications. Sometimes it's the truth sometimes it's a simplification of the truth.
At times Legion claims the Geth are superior at making tough decision yet it still takes his 1000+ personality subrutines what seems like an eternity to consider the Heretics problem on Legions Loyalty mission.
Both options would be a win for Legions Geth, still it's a tough call.
Giving the Quarrians their homeworld is harder, not because the Geth want's to keep the homeworld but because they want to ensure their own safety.
Being neighbour with a species that constantly shows they wants to kill them and who they know hates the Geth. They have no illusions as to the Quarrians view on Geth.
Let's jsut say it would be dangerous to give the Quarrians space superiority and control over the primary relays leadign to the perseus veil and Rannoch.
And if they don't do so I doubt the Quarrians would trust them and accept the offer. The Quarrians would no doubt want to control the relays leading in and out of the veil.
But by dong so the Geth would immediately put themselves at a tactical dissadvantage and allow a people who really wants to hurt Geth an advantage over them.

As for Geth and Legion being practicly immortal, new geth are created, do you know how many of them are the original geth? Do you know if Legion is one of the original Geth? maybe it's younger? Maybe it wasn't even born during the morning wars.
When Legion played up memories and sequences it was never Legions experiences, it was either downloaded from the Geth consensus through the extranet or from the Geth server during Shepards Visit inside the consensus.
Legion could be that old, there is that one picture of a Geth picking up a sniperrifle looking very much like the one Legion favours. It's not proof however and Legion doesn't admit it.

Claiming there is a difference between the Geth VI and Legion, yes I can see that.
And Legion learned new thigns and got to know organics better for the first tiem in three centuries, at which point their memories of organics mostly contaiend memories of organcis shooting at them.

Still other than that all Geth probrams don't seem to be identical, when it came to the Heretics on the loyalty mission they were conflicted, apparently having differing opinions. Some had either abstatiend or coudln't make up their mind.

The one thing you can be certain that all Geth agrees on however is that they don't want to die. They want to feel safe, the fear the Quarrians even if they don't want to admit having "emotions" but in the end, fear is an avertion to getting hurt. Doesn't matter if it's biochemical or electronic or whatever.

According to Legion they are restoring Rannoch, and they wouldn't mind returning the world to the Quarrians.. But they don't trust them.
So the talks get nowhere because they are afraid of yielding control of primary relays, the safety of their space. If they move aside in the veil they would become dependant on the good graces of the Quarrians. Would you trust the Quarrians if you were Geth?

If they look for a home outside the Veil it would be space that would be defacto property of another species and they would have a Galactic war on their hands, with the risk of enraging the whole hornet nest of organics in the galaxy that might fear an expansion attempt by the Geth.

Are the Geth moraly pure Palladins who never does anything wrong? No they are not.
Are the Quarrians moraly pure beign who never does anything wrong? No, not at all.

Who started every war? Who were the first to attack the other? The Quarrians.
Did the Quarrians persue peace? We havn't heard of any such attempts until after Tali meet Legion and Shepard pushes them in that direction.
Did the Geth persue Peace? Not until they got worried about the Reapers and started looking for solutions to their Reaper problem.
Did the Geth persue the Quarrians out of the Veil? No.
Did the Geth start a campaign of conquest across the galaxy liek the Krogan? No.

When someone is trying to kill you and you kill them instead does that make you a criminal? No, that's called selfdefence.

Did the Geth go beyond what was needed for selfdefence? Possibly. We know too little about the Morning war. We know the death count was staggering.

We also know the amount of dead Geth would have been equaly staggering had the Quarrians won.

It's possible that the only advantage the Geth could get over the Quarrians was chemical weapons, the Quarrians likely had most of the conventional weapons seeing as they were in charge.
Sabotaging chemical plants and other facilities to create biochemical spills that would drive the Quarrians away probably seemed efficient and once one Geth noticed that the Quarrians didn't like such thigns all of them probably got the idea of fighting the Quarrians with Biochemical weapons.
I can see the appeal if you're immune to it yourself but you arn't immue to the enemys bullets..
A lot of Sci-fi movies are about finding something that the "evil" aliens can't stand. Like Mars attacks thats a commedy/scifi movie, The martians can't stand a certain type of music that makes their heads explode.
What happens? Every last martial get's slaughtered by music! They were the offenders however.
The Martians fired the first shot, noone feels sorry for them. They were intruders, noone feels sorry for them. They were vicious and dishonorable.
But in a way it would seem the Quarrians were slightly like those Martians, it was the Quarrian homeworld however, but it was also the home of the Geth.

What happend happend, the Geth won, the Quarrians lost, and the Quarrians who got on a ship and left were "allowed" to leave.

If the Geth had lost, would they have been allowed to leave? or would they have been hunt down?

Secondly, had the war taken more than a year then it's likely the council had eventualy intervened. The council is however extremely slow and the quarrians probably did their best to keep the council out of it as long as possible. Seeing as the even was highly illegal to begin with.

In the end the Geth are no worse than the Quarrians.
The Quarrians are violent militaristic agressors while the Geth are extreme isolationinst that enforces their isolationism at gun point as someone said.

The truth is, the morning war was a war of annihilation. The goal was all out erradication of the other species. When the Geth won they let the Quarrians that could leave, leave. The Geth likely wouldn't have been given the same opportunity.

300 years later, the past matters less than it once did. Now as the galaxy is about to get wiped out by the Reapers the Quarrians throws them selves at the Geth.

Is it because they suddenly need it more than before or because they have been planning it for a very long time and were arguing about going to war back in ME2, Tali's trial was less about Tali and more about goign ot war against the Geth to "reclaim" the homeworld.
Somehow the Quarrians thoguht the timing was perfect since the Citadel council had told them not to provoke the Geth.
But the council races were now busy gettign slaughtered by the Reapers, so, the Quarrians didn't have to worry about what the Council thought about their warmongering and puttign the galaxy at risk.
The Quarrians took a risk/chance and they would have been annihilated had it not been for Shepard.

They knew that the "true" Geth had refused the Reapers request for aid in attacking the organic races. Yet they pushed the Geth right into the Reapers camp by forcing their hand. They only considered the Geth Heritic problem as a boon, a divided foe or nation is easier to conquer or destroy.
The Quarrians played the Reapers right into their hands.

It wouldn't surprise me if the Reapers or one of their agents were behind the Quarrians "secret" weapon. Something they hadn't been able to create for the past 300 years even if their dream had always been to retake the homeworld. Just to push the Geth into the hand of the Reapers and kill two birds with one stone.

The thing is, Xen's dream of enslaving the Geth is detestable, and that's what this thread was originaly about.
Destroying the Geth isn't much better. That's called Genocide, and it's the Quarrians second attempt at Genicide.

How can anyone pretend to be claiming the moral highground in a conflict like this?

But this is an entirely incorrect notion. Legion flat-out says that it was sent from geth space to spicifcially track down Shepard, in responce to the Commander defeating Sovergien. Shepard was the interest and the goal. Nothing else was the priority, hence why it only went to worlds that Shepard visited. (It lists off Eden Prime, Therrum, Feros, Noveria, Virmire, Ilos, and " a dozen uncharted worlds," which ended with the Normandy crash site on Alchera.)
It was ONLY interested in Shepard, and only because the Heretics were likely becoming a threat to them as well, now that they had lost direction from Sovergein.
And again, the geth didn't need to build that megastructure over Rannoch. Or at the very least, no reason is given as to WHY they needed Rannoch's star spicifcialy. Also, that view the quarians have is partially the geth's own fault, since they didn't do anything in 300 years to consumate any form of apology for those actions.
And again, since the geth got to Haestrom and back, there ARE other Relays that link around the Perceus Vail.
There ase supposedly four relays in the Eden Prime's Utopia system, and dozens surrounding the Citadel, according to the Codex, which states that the Citadel is surrounded by Primaries and Secondaries. This means that just because the Galaxy Map doesn't show them, doesn't mean the Relays aren't there. So YES, there are likely other relays into the Perseus Veil besides the one in the Tikkun system. So giving it to them would NOT have been detrimental. No advantage is lost.

Again, this is to replace any geth that die. They are created as old ones are killed, hence they're population stays "stable."
Besides, you have no real porrf of your claim, so this is headcannon.

And the Geth V.I. is an indication of what the geth thought of organics before Legion met Shepard. And what they thought of us compaired to them isn't nice, to say the least. THAT'S what geth saw of organics during ME1, and the majority of ME2.

And again, it likely wasn't out of any concern for organics that the rest of the True Geth abstained from joining Sovergien. They simply didn't want the hassle of war again. I doubt that organic concern was even anything they considered before untill/unless Legion makes it back.

And while I argee that fear was a prime motivator for both, I digress that Rannoch was being restored for the quarians' sake. The geth seem to be doing it out of a need to sooth their own concious, and not for any quarian return. Besides, if the megastructure is completed, the massive ammounts of solar energy it will draw off will be detremental to plant life on Rannoch, leaving the ecosystem in a poorer state.
And again, the Perceus Vail had several primaries that led out of it, but for convience sake, they aren't displayed on the Galaxy Map. There are supposed to be over a dozen primary and secondary relays around the Citadel, but they aren't displayed. So your arguement is incorrect.

And who said it HAD to be outside the Perceus Veil? There must have been over a dozen systems, and geth don't NEED a world, since they mine asteroids and gas giants for all they need. Legion says that the geth never touched the resources on the quarian's worlds, so they don't really need them anyway. So with that in mind, they really don't need to leave the Veil at all.

The quarians only started the war because (a) the geth wre supposed to be simple machines, but their "self-modifacations" had unexpected end-results, and ( the Council would put harsh sanctions, or even censorship on the quarians for having brought about the creation of a synthetic race, accedntal or otherwise. So you can't really blame the quarians. They reacted out of fear of the Council in the same way the geth reacted out of fear of the quarians. The quarians would have likely taken a slower, more cautious apporch had the fear of Council retaliation not been on their backs.
In truth, the Council's policies were mostly to blame.

And "Self-defence" has limits. We know from Haestrom's discription of being "one of the first colonies to fall" that the geth had several worlds well before Rannoch was taken. And on Adas, the geth went out of the way to wipe out a small mining colony, even though there was no tactical or military value to it. THAT isn't self-defense anymore. That's retaliation, and esclation of conflict.
The quarian death count was well over 1-2 billion lives. 99% of the entire race died. I highly doubt that was all caused in "self-defence."

And I agree that the geth would have realized the power of biochemical weapons quickly, given that the toxins were so powerfull that the geth are still cleaning them up 300 years later. But as stated in the Haestrom decription, several worlds were already taken. The uprising wasn't instant. From the information on the ME wiki, the Morning War was one year in length. Haestrom is "one of the first worlds to fall," so come worlds fell fast to the geth. And it's foolish to assume that every world was taken by it's individual geth population. They likily retaliated and took the others later in the war in a counterattack.

And the geth say that the sole reason they didn't fire was because they didn't yet know what the consiquences of Genocide would be, or weather there would be any at all, so they decided not to take the risk.

And as stated, the quarians, under the threat of punsihment by Council law, woudl have had no choice but to kill the geth after they were discovered to be A.I.s. If the quarians had won, then, compelled by the laws of the Council, yes, to avoid bring the hammer down on their heads anymore then it already would, they would have had no choice but to anilihate the geth. It may or may not have been their first choice (tehy may have wanted to recover them), but it's the only action that would have gotten them back on the good graces of the Council.

And it's true that the quarians would likely have tried to keep it quiet, so as to try and contain the situation, without bringing the Council in, because the Council would likely have punished them for creating A.I.s in the first place. That may have been a mistake. et the quarians deal with it themselves as punishment for creating them in the

I agree that nither race is any less guilty then the other. The quarians panicked and tried to wipe out the geth, which caused the geth to panic and try to wipe out the quarians, and both sides likely retaliated with incresingly viloent methods. I imagine that the quarians likely tried to combat the geth with deadly program virus that deleated entire terabytes of programs, just as the geth used toxins against the weak immune systems of the quarians.


And the agreement to not provoke the geth was rendered redundant, as the Heretics already made an attack, at the provocation of a turian. Since the Heretics were assumed to represent the entirety of the geth, any bans on shooting them were lifted, and anyone that could shoot geth would shoot geth. The only evidence of the True Geth not being like the Heretics was Shepard's word, which was inadmissable as any form of evidence, since the Commander was under trial for Cerberus connections, and the Alpha Relay incident. So since everyone already thought the geth were bad guys, there was no reason to fear the Council being angry at the quarians for attacking the geth, as the geth took more then a few potshots at the Destiny Asscension (and poosibly blew it up).
And Rannoch has air they can breathe, food they can eat, places to shelter, and resources to use for fuel. Something that is no longer redily avalible in a Galaxy at War. And if they keep their civilian populations, then the fleet can never split up, as they will need constant refuel and resupply from the liveships that they are stuck guarding because they have no where to put the civilians. They will have to constantly attack while defending, which puts them at a disadvantage with Reapers.
And where ELSE are the civilians supposed to go? Since they are dextros, they could only live on turian colonies, and they are all either under attack, or already overcroweded past the limit. Even if they weren't, no colony in the middle of a galaxy-wide war is going to redialy be able to take 16-17 million civilians with strict health and diatary needs, including clean, germ-free rooms with sterrle medications and rations.
Rannoch is their last hope. If they don't retake it, they must either fly against the Reapers as is, being only marginally effective as they can't break apart, or attack with everything because of the liveships, or sit in cold space and hope the Reapers don't find them. There is no choice. Rannoch is their only chance. They are desperate.

And at that point, no one knew that the geth weren't allied with the
Reapers. Even if they did, there was still no indication that they were
allies of organics. They could have been planning to ride out the war
solo. They are simply saying that they were prepping for the war, but
make no mention of ever intending to aid the other races in it.

And the quarian's secret weapon - a virus that hits geth like a flashbang, disabling their ships the same way that the death of the Saren-Husk stunns Sovergien - was invented by Rael'Zorah, on the Alerei in ME2. Then Xen discovered the research when the quarians recovered it, and improved the design. So no, the seceret weapon of the quarians was 100% a quarian invention. Rael'Zorah was only able to create it because for the first time in 300 years, there were geth operating outside of the Veil, and they could finally recover and study geth technology for the first time in centruies. They didn't have geth tech beforehand. Not in such large quanties, or of recent construction.

And I do agree that Xen's ideas are morally wrong, but (a) she's not quite stable, if her discussion about operating on her childhood toys is any indication, and ( she refuses to see the geth, or any form of machine as a sentiant being, and therefore, doesn't see it as slavery. It's the same thought process as the damned Reapers. "We're not killing them - we're harvesting them, and preserving them as new Reapers."
Horrid to think about, but a loophole that they both use. As long as Xen doesn't acknowladge that the geth are alive, or are any more then software, she feels no remorse about re-enslaving them (reaquireing them, she says).
And both times, the quarians were driven to it out of desperation. The first was from the fear of Council punsihment, and the second is that they can have no hope of fighting the Reapers unless they suddenly become self-sufficant, which they can't do without a world to call home. Same with the geth. They were driven to desperation against the quarians both times because they didn't want to die.

So no, there isn't a moral high-ground, so to speak, but you missed several points.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 10 février 2013 - 06:51 .

[shodiswe]

I doubt they would actualy cover the whole sun they could leave enough of an opening for the planets and asteroids of the star system. It also makes mining easier if your tools and synthetic bodyparts arn't affected by supercold that causes additional strain on them and makes it easier for them to break.

Planets only need a very very tiny fraction of a massive stars output.

But the point of this all is that neither side deserves to be safe more than the other. Either they work it out or nother of them really deserves to be part of the galactic community.

The Quarrians are agressive fachists whos politics are determined by the Admiralty, whose courts are run by the admiralty, who got no formal laws other than the disgression of the Admiralty. The Laws are whatever fancies the Admiralty board. The general idea of being a lawabiding Quarrain Citizen is to obey the Admiralty and remember to keep the best of the Quarrian people and the Admiralty in mind, and your Captain.

The Geth are like the Isolationistic China that got stalled behind their great wall and gunpoint Isolationist policy. But given the traumas they have experienced it's only reasonable for them to want to keep other people away from them. When they watch the perimeter outside Geth territory they probably see a Chaotic mess like the Walking Dead from a horror movie. It's shoot or get shot!
They are probably weary of any claims of diplomatic missions aswell, the Quarrians probably used that as a ruse in the mourning wars. We want to talk, then the Quarrian sympathisers would let the fachists in and the fachists would start shooting once they got inside and got a chance to clean out the sympatisers and Geth that they might be holding. Either that or blast the whole building. If they were anything like Admiral Gerrel then I wouldn't put it past them.

They both have issues to work out and I wouldn't want to pick between one of them. If I pick the Quarrians it feels all wrong, excepth may if there was that VI Legion the fake Legion. But that's a failure on Shepards part to begin with.
If I pick the Geth then I help them agaisnt an agressive invader that saw a galactic extimction and considered that a good "opportunity" to move without Citadel council intervention. Who now makes their second attempt to annihilate another species, Hitler style, thinking the political backlash of going agaisnt the councils wishes are worth it. After all the victor writes history and they intend to make sure theirs will be the only history that gets told.

We know that both the Quarrians and the Geth want's and needs the Perseus Veil, it's the only home for both of them, and nether wants to yield military superiority and their own peoples safety to the other, both wants to control the Primary relays. Both want's to protect their people.
Either they have to make peace, which is hard given the distrust from both sides or one has to give in, which is unlikely to happen voluntarily.

The quarrians could have settled another Dextro planet, it woudl have taken them a cnetury or two to adapt.
But they would "prefer" their homeworld since it would only tak decades. They have spend almost three HUNDRED years preparing for a war to retake the homeworld. They could already have had a new homeworld if they had tried to accomplish that instead. But, unfortunately, that's not the Quarrian way.
Both species are stuck in their way's and their political views and ethics are crap.
The Quarrians from the mourningwar have all died out but they passed along their biased and Censured history to their children, stoking the flames of war.
A lot of the Geth from the same era are still alive, some are newer Geth who wern't there. They know history from the experiences and memories of a newly born child gestalt that was getting shot at for no apparent reason. Other than asking about the wonders of being alive. From their perspecitve the Organics of the galaxy must look like the horrors from the walking dead or left for dead.
They research them and try to understand them from the safety of their isolation, probing the extranet. Tryign to understand how these strange beings work. And why they might want to kill Geth.

What changed thigns was the Reaper threat, it has forced both the Geth and Quarrians to Reassess their positions. The Geth sent Legion to investigate the outside world, the Quarrians prepared to attack the Geth..

All has already been said, I have nothing more to add to this debate, but enslaving the Geth is probably the worst idea I've ever heard. Also I don't feel like continuing this since all has already been said. But I thoguht I should add this area of space isn't jsut important to the Quarrians, it's just as important to the Geth's survival, and the Quarrians would never allow the Geth to control Relays or any instalations near Rannoch. Least not until you make peace between them.

Modifié par shodiswe, 10 février 2013 - 09:54 .