Edit note: Quote issue for some odd reason is being stubborn, will see how to fix it when I wake up.
Breaking up the quote pyramid
[quote]CynicalShep wrote...
Yeah, that's a matter of opinion. What I'm saying is that organics would have ended the war there and then. Geth, on the other hand let the Quarians walk (or fly, w/e). And I don't think you've read half of what I wrote. I specifically said that I do not hate Quarian people, I just think their governing system is flawed and their admirals look and act more like a high school reuinion than a real admiralty board.
About the housing - are you serious? Reapers are systematically obliterating everything in the Galaxy and you're butchering a potential ally and suffering loses so that you can have a house Reapers could destroy? They just took Earth, Palaven and Thessia. For Rannoch they would need a couple Destroyers with spatulas if Geth are dead. Instead, the genius admirals strapped huge guns on liveships (instead of added armor) and made them primary targets. "Oh, noez, the evil robots are atacking the live ships!!!11". Well, what did you expect, really?
[quote]
I knew you didn't hate the quarian people and that you just thought they had a terrible government, to which I mentioned was fine and that I would avoid getting into the government talk, mainly to avoid this convo from some how magically stumbling into irl politics (
Not saying you would either which way, but never doubt the ability of people to turn things into an irl political talk). Also yes I have read everything you've wrote.
Quarian housing now - Yes I'm serious and there is a reason for it, which I thank you for taking it exactly where I wanted it to go. The Quarians had nowhere to house their civilians, they may have been able to avoid this war with the geth had the council not stepped in going "No you can't settle here" when the quarians did find certain worlds that offered things that were close to that of Rannoch. Now yes its true all these other homeworlds are getting their teeth kicked in, but these other races who have better funding, established planets, upgraded military tech, etc etc... are also losing in space to the Reapers. Quarians don't have these things like the Humans, Turians, Asari, and other races. They have no embassy on the citadel, they're not even wanted in systems do to what their fleet, and so much more.
So the council races have blocked the quarians x amount of times on settling on worlds, the Geth still have Rannoch the one world they know for sure they can live on, and to put a cherry on top of it all the Reapers are turning the galaxy every which way but loose.
So risk going to war with the council races by just taking a planet and call it good or go to war with the Reapers with the civilians riding behind them the whole time or attack the geth in hopes of retaking their homeworld to house their civilians?
Well people are already cursing the quarians for going to war with the geth, couldn't imagine the hate if the quarians went to war with the council races just to settle on a world that isn't even their homeworld to begin with. Don't want to bring your civilians into a war with the reapers, more so since the reapers are whoopin' everyone except you. Not to mention that the Reapers are burning up the galaxy, so stopping for repairs for ships, strip mining, jumping the whole fleet through a relay to avoid the reapers, and etc, will be next to impossible and will only get harder the longer they try to do it. Quarians don't want to die out just like everyone else, quarians also actually never made peace with the geth to begin with so their war with one another actually never truly ended, it simply was left unsettled between the two. Yeah they had an agreement with the council, but the council isn't the geth.
So council to their right, Reapers to the left, Geth straight ahead, and the Quarians are in the corner. Don't want to fight a war with the Council races just to get a world, can't fight the Reapers, and even they are stomping on the four council races. So, that leaves only one choice. Take out the enemy you know for sure that you have been planning for, that has resources that you can use, has a world you know you can survive on, and offers a place to shelter your civilians so you don't need to take them into combat with the reapers.
Now the quarians are not frontline fighters, but this doesn't mean they can't fight. When you're against an enemy who is stronger than you, you need to fight in a way that takes away the enemy strength. So guerrilla warfare would have to be the fighting style the quarians would need to use to fight the Reapers on Rannoch. I know they would rather do it from orbit, but as we seen the Reapers are just as deadly there as they're on the ground. At least on the ground the quarians can scatter and use the natural layout of Rannoch to move around. Better than drifting through space in lifepods if their ships were destroyed by the reapers.
Ultimatly I forsee "Well if they had not made the geth they would
not be in this position" or something close to that. While it is true,
they also didn't exactly plan for this thing to happen, and of course
organic emotion kicks in when things go sideways (We're all guilty of
this, anyone who says they haven't acted on emotion before is full of
it.)
[quote]CynicalShep wrote...
They brought this upon themselves. It's not like somebody attacked their homeworld and forced them to leave. They attacked the Geth, lost, and 17 millions were spared. Of course I would like a better life but I wouldn't have messed up priorities like some of the Quarians do. In my book a good life will always be more important than destroying an enitre race because my ancestors screwed up. [/quote]
Now I will break this into two parts
Part 1
[quote]CynicalShep wrote...
They brought this upon themselves. It's not like somebody attacked their
homeworld and forced them to leave. They attacked the Geth, lost, and
17 millions were spared[/quote]
This will all come down to opinion once again, but I would say this was an unavoidable event. Again the Quarians didn't intend to make an A.I. If anything they were trying to upgrade their tools basically, the upgrades just went haywire on them sadly when it came to more forceful means of deactivating them. Now the Geth were already inside their homes pretty much, so in truth this is the quarian military nightmare. They cannot use their tactics because those tactics may very well kill their own people and once again the quarians are not frontline fighters. Now it's all well and good that the Geth made some calculation in their processors that came out to allowing those millions to leave, but surely the quarians didn't have a standing military in the billions to warrent the Geth to inflict a speculated 99% species destruction on the quarians (I know some of this is on the hands of the quarians as well, I'm not ruling that out. Its just not clear what percent of quarians were killed by Geth and what percent were killed by their own people.)
Part2
[quote]CynicalShep wrote...
Of course I would like a better life but I wouldn't have messed up
priorities like some of the Quarians do. In my book a good life will
always be more important than destroying an enitre race because my
ancestors screwed up.[/quote]
I would agree entirely, but. The thing is that the quarians didn't want to take their civilians into battle with the reapers, hell if they had the option I'm sure they would have left them somewhere else to avoid taking them into combat with the geth, which if they already had that place to begin with they wouldn't actually need to go to war with the geth in the first place to have somewhere to shelter their civilians. Now once more these two species never made peace with one another, if they had made peace before hand this whole thing may have never happended. The Quarians may have already been back on Rannoch before the last building on fire fell, but the two were never at peace with one another. Yeah Legion says "Oh the Geth don't want to fight" to Shepard, but Shepard is not the one that Legion needed to convince of this. This would be like Wrex being ticked off with Garrus for the genophage, but asking Tali to convince Garrus to give Wrex a cure for peace between them. Neither side should have needed Shepard to play middle ground, also lets face it that none of our Shepards honestly brought anything to prove peace could be achieved for either side. Shep only brought words, nothing of solid proof.
[quote]CynicalShep wrote...
I'm not saying they show a degree of hostility to other organics - I said that they have a knack for self-destroying "accidents". They attacked the Geth once and lost, they ran test on Alarei and screwed up and they attack Geth again and lose (if you don't shoot Legion). I see them like a race of scientists: brilliant minds and little common sense (kind of like Salarians). Well, the lack of common sense is bound to cause another screw up - be in it 10, 100 or 500 years. Heretics were Geth with messed up priorities. Quarians weren't guilty that they attacked Eden Prime but none of that would have happened if "the Creators" didn't fail in the first place.
And don't you dare compare that suicidal revenge-driven "Admiral" with Hackett. Hackett had to choose between losing his entire fleet in minutes and losing one of his fleets in fewer minutes. He is a real Admiral. Shepard offered to help Gerrel, cause he was getting mauled and specifically told him (in my case) to retreat to safety. Instead he attacked a disabled ship (which could have helped with the war that really mattered) while another Admiral, Humanity's de-facto ambassador and another good soldier (the Shadow Broker, in my case) were still on board. Not only is that back-stabbing - he also willingly attacked Humanity's representative (which could have well caused another war if not for the Reapers). And you're obviously over-reacting. I never said "Death to the Quarians!" but I would gladly lock Gerrel up for the rest of his days (after shooting his knee-caps).[/quote]
[quote]CynicalShep wrote...
"All I'm saying is that for all their smarts and tech-prowess Quarians are a ticking bomb [/quote]
The way you put it, it kind of sounded like you were implying open hostility, I think bomb and I think explosion that hits everything around it. I was also tired when I replied the first time, so it could have been just simple misunderstanding on my part.
The first conflict the Geth were already inside the homes of the quarians, I don't believe this war would have actually been avoided because sooner or later someone or something was going to do something. However first war stuff is mainly opinion and can be filled with "what if's". So Yes the quarians struck first and sadly lost.
The Alarei however was a small group of quarians. It was believed (If I remember correctly) that they were testing weapons on deactivated geth parts. Tali herself even said she sent deactivated geth parts, so nobody but this small group of quarians knew what was really going on. The small group should have informed the whole fleet and not kept it hidden, they did in fact pay the price for it. To me this would be at first like testing weapons on dead animals and then testing them on live animals (
I wouldn't condone the testing of weapons on living animals just fyi nor do I consider the geth animals or anything organic to begin with). This last tid bit to this will come down to the philosophical opinion of the whole quarian-geth conflict, what do we as individuals consider alive and not alive.
I would argue that it took the reapers involvement to turn the tide of this recent conflict (turn the tide, not win the war.) So the quarians don't actually win or lose till Shep steps in to do their thing.
Now i will also say Eden Prime may have also not happened if the Geth didn't allow the heretics to walk away. But the Geth dropped the ball
As for Han'Gerrel and Admiral Hackett. I respect Hackett greatly, but I also respect Gerrel greatly. I know why Hackett did what he did, but I also see why Gerrel did what he did (However you told him to retreat, my shep told him to counter-attacker. So anything beyond this point is pretty much a stalemate because both sides are justified through orders to Gerrel.) I will be flat out honest right here, but I really don't think the Geth supporters give the Geth enough credit for their ability to fix their own ships. I'm confident (Me, the Anti-Geth person here) that the Geth could have gotten that dreadnought back at full fighting strength before Shep, Tali, and crew member got off the thing. It's also a Dreadnought, that thing is going to take awhile to be destroyed. In one sense it does suck to be shot at while on the ship, but yet at the same time I respect the Geth as an enemy enough to say that you shouldn't give them a chance to recover.
I didn't mean you directly when I made the "
Han'Gerrel makes one call to fire on a dangerous target thats been
threatening his people and people want to scream "Death to the
quarians!" because of it, Seriously? Lol." comment. I fully acknowledge exceptions to the rules and I would count you as the exception. However that Dreadnought was a threat and if they can use the Geth VI as an amp for the reaper signal, which the Geth VI is not suppose to be legion. I'm fairly certain they could have used any other geth as an amp. Either which way Han'Gerrels call comes down to personal opinion. You thought it was dumb and went against your orders. I thought it was smart and went with my orders. However the Dreadnought was fired upon when both our sheps were aboard, one reminded Gerrel of his place, the other one took the professional soldier stance. It was Liara as well in my case, her being the shadow broker though would have been an unknown to pretty much everyone except a highly select few. If Gerrel knew she was the shadow broker, there -may- have been a change of plans. Also its unknown how much Quarians know about Human military protocols, Shepard doesn't do much to inform them "By the way im the Ambassador, so watch what you do" or whatever.
[quote]CynicalShep wrote...
I agreed that it would be an interesting option, although it's one I would never consider taking (for reasons explained above). Pro-Geth people obviously hate the option, just like you would hate if Geth took control of Quarians through their suits and made them organic batteries. As about not underestimating them the second time - they already did it 3 times (Morning War, Alarei, ME3 war). I am almost sure they'll screw up again, it's only a question of how soon that will happen and whether any of the Quarians will survive.
[/quote]
And once again we come to personal opinions. I respect that you don't think they can do it and like I said my main shep wouldn't do this anyways. So its all good in the end, however as we both show in our words that it would have been an interesting option had it been allowed to happen in the game.
As for Geth supporters not liking the idea. I respect they don't like it and by no means think that if the option -was- put in the game, that they should feel like a gun is held to their head to select the option (
Not saying that you said that just FYI).
Rather tired now, so I think I will end this reply here for the time being. May do one more small reply to another post, but overall I'm going to crash into my bed.
Modifié par Dunabar, 04 février 2013 - 06:18 .
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