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Quarians to once again control the Geth


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#101
Hazegurl

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Cyrax86 wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...

Cyrax86 wrote...

Red Dust wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...

I harbor no sympathizes for the Geth or Quarians but if I can't broker peace between then I opt to destroy the Quarians. Why? Cause they blew up a ship with me on it. That simple. I could careless about their home world. I sure as heck don't want to die for it. Also, the Quarians don't deserve to control the Geth. They did before and look what happened to them. I don't mind the option being there for fans who do but I think that would be a stupid thing to do. Would you plan to fight the Geth to save the Quarian's butts once the Geth attack again? I sure don't. I say close their mass relay and let the Geth finish what they started if that's the case.


The Geth have been activly trying to kill you for three games. The Quarians attack a ship with you on it, confident that you'd escape (and you do).

Seems legit.

Its not like when Adm. Hackett was shooting at the cerburus base a few missions later, or anytime during ME1.


Hackett warned Shepard and Shep gave permission to fire. I hate Hackett but he didn't spring that on shep out of the blue.

the Geth dreadnought was coming back online, it would have continued firing on the Quarians while trapping Shep inside. Any way are you going to attack the alliance or doom humanity to extinction because Hackett shot at you?


No, Gerrel ordered the attack cause the the dreadnaught was offline and they had the advantage. Gerrel attacked immidiately then started talking crap about how he was doing it cause the Geth were now vulnerable. Gerrel was willing to scarifice Shepard, Tali/other quarian lady on the ship if it meant destorying the Geth. He didn't give two craps if Shep and his/her squad made it out alive. Hackett on the other hand contacted Shepard to assess the situation and S/he gave permission to do whatever it took. Shepard was willing to die if it meant the Allanice could take down Cerberus and use the catalyst. Shepard was not willing to die so the Quarians can pew pew the Geth for their stupid homeworld. Hence the reason why there is the option to punch Gerrel and kick his butt off his/her ship. It's not the same but if you want to keep beliving that, then that's fine for you.

#102
DeinonSlayer

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Hazegurl wrote...

Cyrax86 wrote...

the Geth dreadnought was coming back online, it would have continued firing on the Quarians while trapping Shep inside. Any way are you going to attack the alliance or doom humanity to extinction because Hackett shot at you?

No, Gerrel ordered the attack cause the the dreadnaught was offline and they had the advantage. Gerrel attacked immidiately then started talking crap about how he was doing it cause the Geth were now vulnerable. Gerrel was willing to scarifice Shepard, Tali/other quarian lady on the ship if it meant destorying the Geth. He didn't give two craps if Shep and his/her squad made it out alive. Hackett on the other hand contacted Shepard to assess the situation and S/he gave permission to do whatever it took. Shepard was willing to die if it meant the Allanice could take down Cerberus and use the catalyst. Shepard was not willing to die so the Quarians can pew pew the Geth for their stupid homeworld. Hence the reason why there is the option to punch Gerrel and kick his butt off his/her ship. It's not the same but if you want to keep beliving that, then that's fine for you.

Hackett didn't contact Shepard before blowing up Sovereign right next to the Citadel Tower you were positioned in. It was offline, the Alliance had the advantage - they took it. So what if you nearly got crushed?

You're free to react however you want. If an egoistic, emotional outburst is the most character-appropriate reaction, more power to you. If you believe extinction is a proper punishment... I don't know what to say to you. As far as the dreadnought goes, I go with the Paragon response in that instance: "You did the right thing. Just give me a heads-up next time."

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 04 février 2013 - 08:06 .


#103
Hazegurl

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QU33N_ANG3L wrote...

Just face it guys the Quarians are morons and idiots ok??


AND THAT MARKS THE END OF THIS THREAD


I cut your post but I agree with everything! Although I can't say if the Geth Heretics were indocrinated or not but I do wonder how they made contact with the reapers in the first place when they never left the veil. It makes me wonder if the Reapers targetted them first over time. Just like the Rachni Queen said that they weren't themselves during the Rachni Wars. Going by memory on that so I'm not completely sure.

I don't have a problem with posters siding wih the Quarians but making things up about them and their intentions is too much. :mellow: They were a bunch of idiots with a few smart ones sprinkled in there. They have zero loyalty and no sense to put together a decent government. Seriously, Gerrel makes a decision and millions of Quarians just follow it mindlessly into death?

I remember my first trilogy playthrough with Tali giving me the rundown on their history with the Geth and I told her they got what they deserved and meant it. The Geth attacking me didn't make me think any better of the Quarians. During this playthrough in ME3 I decided to actually read the first piece of intel when I regained Spectre status on the Quarians preparations for war and I was pleasantly surprised when I saw that they were preparing for the reaper invasion. Only to read the last sentence stating they were really preparing to attack the Geth. I just sighed. I knew then that my first choice to kill them when I played ME3 (first time playing the game) was the right choice.

#104
Steelcan

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Hazegurl wrote...


I don't have a problem with posters siding wih the Quarians but making things up about them and their intentions is too much. :mellow: They were a bunch of idiots with a few smart ones sprinkled in there. They have zero loyalty and no sense to put together a decent government. Seriously, Gerrel makes a decision and millions of Quarians just follow it mindlessly into death?

. In peace on Rannoch Shepard speaks to the whole fleet, not just the admirals like in the other two options.

#105
fiendishchicken

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Steelcan wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...


I don't have a problem with posters siding wih the Quarians but making things up about them and their intentions is too much. :mellow: They were a bunch of idiots with a few smart ones sprinkled in there. They have zero loyalty and no sense to put together a decent government. Seriously, Gerrel makes a decision and millions of Quarians just follow it mindlessly into death?

. In peace on Rannoch Shepard speaks to the whole fleet, not just the admirals like in the other two options.


But they're going to listen to their Admiral, regardless of the logic given to them and their own beliefs. 

#106
Steelcan

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fiendishchicken wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...
I don't have a problem with posters siding wih the Quarians but making things up about them and their intentions is too much. :mellow: They were a bunch of idiots with a few smart ones sprinkled in there. They have zero loyalty and no sense to put together a decent government. Seriously, Gerrel makes a decision and millions of Quarians just follow it mindlessly into death?

. In peace on Rannoch Shepard speaks to the whole fleet, not just the admirals like in the other two options.

But they're going to listen to their Admiral, regardless of the logic given to them and their own beliefs. 

. They aren't all under Gerrel.  Koris would probably tell those under his command to stand down.

#107
Hazegurl

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DeinonSlayer wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...

Cyrax86 wrote...

the Geth dreadnought was coming back online, it would have continued firing on the Quarians while trapping Shep inside. Any way are you going to attack the alliance or doom humanity to extinction because Hackett shot at you?

No, Gerrel ordered the attack cause the the dreadnaught was offline and they had the advantage. Gerrel attacked immidiately then started talking crap about how he was doing it cause the Geth were now vulnerable. Gerrel was willing to scarifice Shepard, Tali/other quarian lady on the ship if it meant destorying the Geth. He didn't give two craps if Shep and his/her squad made it out alive. Hackett on the other hand contacted Shepard to assess the situation and S/he gave permission to do whatever it took. Shepard was willing to die if it meant the Allanice could take down Cerberus and use the catalyst. Shepard was not willing to die so the Quarians can pew pew the Geth for their stupid homeworld. Hence the reason why there is the option to punch Gerrel and kick his butt off his/her ship. It's not the same but if you want to keep beliving that, then that's fine for you.

Hackett didn't contact Shepard before blowing up Sovereign right next to the Citadel Tower you were positioned in. It was offline, the Alliance had the advantage - they took it. So what if you nearly got crushed?

You're free to react however you want. If an egoistic, emotional outburst is the most character-appropriate reaction, more power to you. If you believe extinction is a proper punishment... I don't know what to say to you. As far as the dreadnought goes, I go with the Paragon response in that instance: "You did the right thing. Just give me a heads-up next time."


I agree with Hackett firing on Sovereign. How was he to know Shep was in the Citadel tower? He knew he was in the Citadel. On top of that the fight with Saren and Sovereign was Shep's fight. If he died in it then it was his battle to die in. Not dying to fight someone else's fight, that they wouldn't be having if they didn't start it in the first place. In ME3 my Shep had bigger fish to fry then the freaking Geth conflict once again. The Quarians got stuck between a rock and a hard place because they started a war they couldn't finish. An illegal war mind you, in the middle of a full scale reaper invasion. He didn't have time for this shyt and if he didn't need their fleet he wouldn't have bothered in the first place. Then he finds out that the Geth were preparing to fight the reapers. Then all I could think of was that the Geth's resources were being used to fight the quarians instead of the Reapers they were preparing for and it's all the Quarians fault.

Once again, you can try to reach for similarities all you like to excuse the Quarian's a**backwards stupidity but my Shep is not an emotional headcase who wishes to destroy the Geth because the Quarians told him to. Good for you that you thought it was cool to die for the quarian homeworld. My Shep on the other hand had Reapers to fight and his own planet to save. See, that's why this game have choices. B)

#108
Cyrax86

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@ Hazegurl

yes the Geth dreadnought was offline, but it would have come back online and resumed its attack. My Shep was okay with Gerral taking down the Geth dreadnought(decisions :P).

"They were a bunch of idiots with a few smart ones sprinkled in there. They have zero loyalty and no sense to put together a decent government. Seriously, Gerrel makes a decision and millions of Quarians just follow it mindlessly into death? " - Hazegurl



"They were a bunch of idiots with a few smart ones sprinkled in there. They have zero loyalty and no sense to put together a decent government. Seriously, Legion/Heretics/Geth makes a decision and millions of Geth just follow it mindlessly into submission/death?"- Cyrax86

#109
Giantdeathrobot

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I don't really ge the logic behind the OP's demand. One resolution benefits both parties a lot, one resolutin benefits the Geth, one benefits the Quarians. The Geth also die for stupid reasons in 1 of 4 ending. Why do the people who hate the Geth for who knows what reasons need to crack out the whip and make them slaves again? What does it add to the story beyond making Shepard an even bigger jerk?

Not only that, but putting them all under control again seems out of the Quarian's league. They manage to create a ''blinding'' software, but that's a far cry from direct control. Only the Reapers have managed it, and even then it seems it needed to be willing, else they would have not bothered approaching the Geth with their offer beforehand. So I very strongly doubt even Xen could cook up such an advanced process in a short enough notice that it would suit the plot. Geth can be hacked, but reliably putting the entire race on mind control again seems far-fetched.

#110
Guest_Finn the Jakey_*

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*Headdesk*

Dorn'Hazt: "The Civilian fleet doesn't want this war"

Why is this so hard for people to get their thick heads around?

#111
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I've been saying that this should have been an option for some time now. Overlord and Xen's dialogue in ME2 certainly seemed to imply that it would be.

Apparently Bioware considers controlling the super-powerful mecha-squids who've never shown any signs of being able to be controlled more plausible though. Go figure.

#112
Steelcan

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Cthulhu42 wrote...

I've been saying that this should have been an option for some time now. Overlord and Xen's dialogue in ME2 certainly seemed to imply that it would be.

Apparently Bioware considers controlling the super-powerful mecha-squids who've never shown any signs of being able to be controlled more plausible though. Go figure.

. I knew I wasn't the only reason expecting this

#113
EpicBoot2daFace

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Cthulhu42 wrote...

I've been saying that this should have been an option for some time now. Overlord and Xen's dialogue in ME2 certainly seemed to imply that it would be.

Apparently Bioware considers controlling the super-powerful mecha-squids who've never shown any signs of being able to be controlled more plausible though. Go figure.

Indeed. It would have been an interesting option.

#114
fiendishchicken

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I'd sooner kill the Geth than give them back to the suit rats.

#115
silverexile17s

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Hazegurl wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...

Cyrax86 wrote...

the Geth dreadnought was coming back online, it would have continued firing on the Quarians while trapping Shep inside. Any way are you going to attack the alliance or doom humanity to extinction because Hackett shot at you?

No, Gerrel ordered the attack cause the the dreadnaught was offline and they had the advantage. Gerrel attacked immidiately then started talking crap about how he was doing it cause the Geth were now vulnerable. Gerrel was willing to scarifice Shepard, Tali/other quarian lady on the ship if it meant destorying the Geth. He didn't give two craps if Shep and his/her squad made it out alive. Hackett on the other hand contacted Shepard to assess the situation and S/he gave permission to do whatever it took. Shepard was willing to die if it meant the Allanice could take down Cerberus and use the catalyst. Shepard was not willing to die so the Quarians can pew pew the Geth for their stupid homeworld. Hence the reason why there is the option to punch Gerrel and kick his butt off his/her ship. It's not the same but if you want to keep beliving that, then that's fine for you.

Hackett didn't contact Shepard before blowing up Sovereign right next to the Citadel Tower you were positioned in. It was offline, the Alliance had the advantage - they took it. So what if you nearly got crushed?

You're free to react however you want. If an egoistic, emotional outburst is the most character-appropriate reaction, more power to you. If you believe extinction is a proper punishment... I don't know what to say to you. As far as the dreadnought goes, I go with the Paragon response in that instance: "You did the right thing. Just give me a heads-up next time."


I agree with Hackett firing on Sovereign. How was he to know Shep was in the Citadel tower? He knew he was in the Citadel. On top of that the fight with Saren and Sovereign was Shep's fight. If he died in it then it was his battle to die in. Not dying to fight someone else's fight, that they wouldn't be having if they didn't start it in the first place. In ME3 my Shep had bigger fish to fry then the freaking Geth conflict once again. The Quarians got stuck between a rock and a hard place because they started a war they couldn't finish. An illegal war mind you, in the middle of a full scale reaper invasion. He didn't have time for this shyt and if he didn't need their fleet he wouldn't have bothered in the first place. Then he finds out that the Geth were preparing to fight the reapers. Then all I could think of was that the Geth's resources were being used to fight the quarians instead of the Reapers they were preparing for and it's all the Quarians fault.

Once again, you can try to reach for similarities all you like to excuse the Quarian's a**backwards stupidity but my Shep is not an emotional headcase who wishes to destroy the Geth because the Quarians told him to. Good for you that you thought it was cool to die for the quarian homeworld. My Shep on the other hand had Reapers to fight and his own planet to save. See, that's why this game have choices. B)

Um, Joker TALKED to Shepard from the Normandy. He KNEW Shepard was in the tower, because THAT'S where the master control unit for the Station and the Relay network are stationed. The relays could only be unlocked to let the fleet in if Shepard was there. Ergo, Hackett knew FULL WELL Shepard was in the tower, and STILL fired. Even disregarding Shepard, there are still lives on the Presidum where the thing is killed that could be harmed by debris and the blast, but Hackett fires anyway, because they can't affort to waste the chance to kill it.
It's a tactical decision of war. You HAVE to make them, and Gerrel was in no different a position then Hackett.

And the geth had a Reaper on Rannoch that couldn't have JUST flown in past the Migrant Fleet, without drawing attention. That Reaper was on Rannoch BEFORE they took them over.
And based on their behiveior to the REST of the galaxy (Heretics rip the Attican Traverse a new one. Heretics rip the Citadel fleet a new one. Heretics rip the Citadel defense force a new one. Heretics continue piricy acts during the two years after ME1. Geth sit behind the Veil while Palaven and Earth burn under Reaper oppression.) vs. how ONE SINGLE PLATFORM acts in the private employ of a CERBERUS-ASSOCIATED person, isn't sufficant to make the entire galaxy just trust the geth out of kindness. As far as the rest of the galaxy knew, the geth were still Reaper allies. Shepard's word was suspect because of the Cerberus ties and the Alpha Relay incident. The quarians figured that it was two birds with one stone.

The quarians lost 99% of their people. They can't survive in open atmosphere. They were always denied the rights colonize any other world by the Council. They lost any other chance of it when the Reapers came in. The're fleet is a sitting duck for the Reapers, if they don't find anywhere to let their civilians hunker down. The geth are still assumed to be Reaper allies. The quarians had a virus-based weapon that could garuntee victory against geth ships. There may never be another chance because the Reapers are torching and harvesting everything around them.

Your Shep seems more SELFISH then "cool." Losing Earth should make YOU of all people understand what it means to have all that back in your grasp, even more so since it the first time in 300 years the quarians have been this close.
Any Shepard that knows about love and loss should see where quarians are coming fromB)B)

#116
silverexile17s

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EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

Cthulhu42 wrote...

I've been saying that this should have been an option for some time now. Overlord and Xen's dialogue in ME2 certainly seemed to imply that it would be.

Apparently Bioware considers controlling the super-powerful mecha-squids who've never shown any signs of being able to be controlled more plausible though. Go figure.

Indeed. It would have been an interesting option.

It supposedly WAS in the originla script. From what DenyonSlayer told me, Xen going rouge and trying to brainwash the geth to servitude from the Citadel, or something, following or during the "Peace" option was part of the original plot, but was scrapped to keep the story "High-level." (chalk another one up for Casey Hudson, people!)

#117
silverexile17s

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DeinonSlayer wrote...

Wrote this up back in the day - an alternate Rannoch campaign. Dunabar, it incorporates your Control idea, growing out of what was foreshadowed in ME2, while portraying both the positive AND the negative aspects of the Geth at the same time.

This would fit only with a completely restructured plot, in which you address priority missions in the order you choose. Two versions exist of each - Healthy, and Unhealthy based on how many Priority missions you already finished (for example, Rannoch-Unhealthy is what we see in-game. Rannoch-Healthy intercepts the Quarians before they can go to war, resulting in a completely different set of outcomes).

You complete as many priority missions as you want before taking your accumulated forces to Earth, but the longer you wait, the worse off Earth is when you get back there. Finish every Priority mission, and Earth is effectively destroyed. The galaxy is left in a different state after the ending based on which missions you chose to complete, and in which order - no A, B, or C choice. Final battle conditions change based on your actions up to that point. Ignore Rannoch? Quarians are extinct and Geth are under permanent Reaper control. You'll fight a lot of Geth. Ignore Tuchanka? Lots of Brutes. You can address the Genophage arc early, but the Quarians go to war with the Geth. You can address the Quarian/Geth situation before they go to war, but the bomb goes off on Tuchanka in the meantime. BIG trade-offs. You can save ANYone, but you can't save EVERYone - thus making every playthrough different.

With that established:

PRIORITY: MIGRANT FLEET
If the player addresses this as one of their first Priority missions, it's in the Healthy state. The Quarians have not yet launched their war to retake Rannoch. The Migrant Fleet is in orbit above Korlus, retrofitting their ships with weapons, and the Normandy meets with them. Shepard goes before the Admiralty, and we revisit some of the arguments set forth in ME2 to address why the Quarians are doing this. They need a place to offload their civilian populace if they are to commit to the fight against the Reapers - somewhere they can survive long-term in the event that the Migrant Fleet doesn't survive to come back for them. Rannoch is the only planet in the galaxy that fits the bill, and (as per vanilla ME3 if Legion survived, but for different reasons) the Geth have cut off contact (they do NOT side with the Reapers in this version). Shepard can express an opinion on whether attacking the Geth is right or wrong. If Shepard opposes the war, Gerrel shows you a video of the gassing of a Quarian city in the Morning War once the fighting started in earnest (something Legion strongly alludes to have happened in ME2) to try to convince you, arguing that the initial attempt to destroy the Geth back when they had done nothing was wrong, but what they've become since then is not worth protecting. Shepard can react to this footage with shock and anger, or dismiss it, saying that that was a long time ago. It's around this time the Geth make contact.

What I figured would happen was that the Geth would factionalize a second time after ME2 - some would seek to leave the Collective and assist in the war against the Reapers, others would seek to maintain the status quo of violent isolationism, standing on their own. Depending on Shepard's interaction with Legion in ME2, and the resolution of the loyalty conflict, the faction which left Geth space may (or may not) be open to returning Rannoch to the quarians. If Legion was sold or killed, or you're playing a non-import game, this "friendly" faction does not exist.

If the "friendlies" do exist (about 20% of Geth forces, now known as "The Legion"), they send a ship to make contact with the Flotilla. The Admiralty Board must be convinced not to fire on it, otherwise it will be destroyed. Several factors are taken into account as to whether this can be done.

CONVINCING THE BOARD (2 of the following points +reputation needed):
* The evidence must NOT be presented in Tali's trial. We're told in ME2 that the Fleet fragments if the evidence is presented, with some calling for immediate war with the Geth, and others seeking to make contact with them. Admiral Koris splits from the fleet and takes a group of ships into Geth space to make contact. In keeping with the Geth's isolationist policies, they (like the Citadel emissaries before them) were destroyed on sight. Koris' replacement on the Admiralty Board is not as friendly to the prospect of Geth peace. If the evidence wasn't presented, Koris is alive, and still friendly to the prospect of peace.
* Tali must NOT exiled, and must survive the suicide mission to be appointed to the Admiralty Board.
* The loyalty conflict between Tali and Legion MUST be peacefully resolved, meaning Legion cannot have been sold to Cerberus.
* Shepard MUST promote peace at the conclusion of Tali's trial - this will influence Raan's vote.

If the Legion-aligned ship survives, they relay their intentions - to assist organics, and (if Legion survived and the loyalty conflict was amicably resolved) to return Rannoch. Problem being, Rannoch is controlled by the Consensus, who have no intention to return it, and who came into violent conflict with the Legion when they sought to leave. The Consensus recognized that when the Heretics split from them, they later came back as a threat (they did not act against the Heretics until they, themselves, were threatened by them) - the same assumption of eventual hostility following a divide was applied to the Legion, prompting the Consensus to preemptively attack them (reacting to their own "machine rebellion"). The Geth are in a state of civil war - even if most of the combat is electronic, rather than ships physically firing on each other. The quarians are divided by this news, not ready to fully trust them.

It's revealed (as foreshadowed in ME2) that Xen has created a virus capable of returning control of the Geth to the Quarian people by faking a Consensus Achieved packet. This would strip the Geth entirely of their free will. Shepard can encourage her to use it, or try to stop her, but if the latter was chosen, there's a standoff similar to what happens to the Virmire Survivor during the coup. Kal'Reegar was assigned to her personal guard. The player has to talk him down or kill him, your ability to do so determined by your actions in ME2. If he didn't survive, he is replaced by a marine who cannot be convinced. Fail to talk down the leader of Xen's guard detail, and you'll get in a firefight with them as Xen makes for the shuttle bay with the virus (yes, you get to fight quarians).

CONVINCING REEGAR:
Tali and Legion must have survived, with their loyalty conflict amicably resolved in ME2. He trusted you to protect her - if you failed in that, he does not trust you, and if he has no reason to believe peace is possible he has no cause to stand down. The other factors are as follows:
- Kenn, Veetor, Forzan and Lia'Vael assisted in ME2 (+1)
- Evidence handed over at the trial. (-1)
- Exiled. (+1)
- Paragon/Renegade, or Rally the Crowd (+2)
- Heretics destroyed (+2)
- Heretics rewritten (-3)
- Tali romanced (-1) (Yeah, he's jealous.)

This score must be greater than or equal to zero for Kal'Reegar to be talked down. For example, a pure Paragon who did not romance Tali (score: 0) would be able to talk him down. A pure Paragon who romanced Tali (score: -1) would be forced to kill him. Killing Reegar will break up a Tali romance (if it exists) and keep her from joining your crew afterwards.

Once you've captured (or killed) Xen, Shepard can destroy the virus, or hold on to it.

FINAL CONFRONTATION:
It was foreshadowed in ME2 that the Geth were just as likely to attack the Flotilla (particularly if you side with Legion in the loyalty confrontation) as the Quarians were to attack the Geth. As I've heard, both scenarios were originally supposed to be included in the game, but due to budget issues, and a desire for all ME3 content to be open to new players, only one of these scenarios made the final cut.

In the Unhealthy state of Priority: Rannoch, the Quarians attack the Geth as seen in-game. In the Healthy state described below, the Geth attack the Quarians.

The reactionary Consensus-aligned Geth learn of the existence of Xen's virus and attack the Flotilla, intent on destroying them completely so as to permanently eliminate the threat (they stayed their hand last time, this time they will not). If the friendly faction exists, they move to defend their creators, with Legion-aligned ships taking fire to protect as-yet unarmed civilian craft. The Quarians take heavy casualties if this friendly faction isn't there to protect them. Legion-aligned ships are engaged in physical and electronic warfare with Consensus-aligned ships, locking them down far more effectively than the Quarians could (their flashbang does not exist), but as the Consensus continues to pour into the system, the Legion are slowly being overwhelmed - once boarded electronically, Geth ships can be "purged" and recaptured, turning friends back into enemies.

If Shepard destroyed the virus, all is lost. The Consensus annihilates both the Flotilla and the Legion simply through strength of numbers. Shepard and company evacuate to the Normandy as the Neema is blown apart around you, but as soon as you reach the airlock, Tali locks herself out, opting instead to stay behind and die with the rest of her kin. No war assets are gained from either side, and the Quarians are extinct. The Consensus Geth who killed them both will eventually be taken over by the Reapers, and serve as an enemy faction near the end of the game.

If Xen was encouraged to use the virus, the entire Geth collective is returned to Quarian control. In a crushing scene, Legion (the platform from ME2, not the fleet) is shown to have a personality like Glyph. A lobotomized husk of what he once was. A tool. A slave. The Quarians move to settle on Rannoch, using the Geth to fight by proxy, so only the Geth are gained as war assets. Xen is a megalomaniac who poses a possible threat in the post-war future if she has control of this massive synthetic army. The Flotilla itself renders little support to the other armies - the Quarians cannibalize many of their ships to speed their settlement of Rannoch, per Tali in ME2.

However, if Shepard confiscated the virus, there are other options. You can choose to use it, again turning the Geth into slaves as described above (but without Xen's insane ambitions tainting the quarians' future use of them), or you can give the virus to The Legion, bringing an end to hostilities but allowing the Geth to retain free will. Similar to rewriting the Heretics, the Legion rewrites the Consensus to their way of thinking (exactly as the Consensus originally feared). If the Legion was unwilling to return Rannoch, the Geth are gained as a war asset, but the Quarians, with nowhere to safely offload their civilian populace, opt to go into hiding until the end of the war. Depending on how long the war goes on, they might be detected by the Reapers and destroyed in space, having never seen their home, or they might continue on as homeless wanderers in a collection of failing ships after the war's end.

If the virus is given to the Legion, and the Legion is friendly, the Quarians offload their civilian populace on Rannoch and both sides commit to the war effort as equals.

Possible permanent squad recruits: Tali, Legion, and Kal'Reegar (stripped of his position as Squad Leader in the MFM if he bails on Xen).

AFTER PRIORITY: RANNOCH
If peace was established, with the Geth retaining free will, the Quarians contribute their fleet to the war effort, providing vital logistical support and assisting with the evacuation of Turian refugees from Palaven - including Garrus' family (per the original game script).

The Geth are absolutely crucial to the operation of a Batarian-designed weapons system which can destroy Sovereign-class Reapers with ease. They can only fulfill this capacity if they retain free will (it would take too long to adapt a shackled AI to the process of managing the hundreds of thousands of orbital mirrors that comprise this weapon). Described in detail here:

http://social.biowar...77/polls/35572/

I tried to be balanced to both sides. You ultimately have to make BOTH sides see the error of their ways for the best outcome to be achieved. The schism allows the nobler aspects of the Geth shine through, while simultaneously not giving them a free pass on their history. Thoughts?

If I gave an honest critique on this:
I don't know about the geth openly refusing to share Rannoch for "just because." Say they are concerned/fearful for their power base, and want to make sure it's safe, as there is a war with the Reapers everywhere else. Or hell, that they simply don't trust the quarians, to which Gerrel will respond that the geth were the ones that killed unessessarly (Morning War casualties), not the quarians, and the geth were the ones that sat on their hands and let the Heretics carve out a bloodbath in the Traverse and the Citadel while a young, impressionable quarian (Tali) helped stopped them. (give him a little moment of glory. Remind the player that the quarians have as much the right to fight for Rannoch as the geth do, and that the quarians are just as much victims of the geth's overzelousness as the geth were of the quarians's hastiness.).

Also, it seems that, if learning of the quarian's impending attack, the geth division would likely be closer to 50/50 if you destroy the Heretics, and 60/40 or 65/35 if the Heretics were spared. 20% seems unlikely, as I doubt THAT many geth (80%) would flock to the Reapers out of pure parinoia. Not from what happens at the end of the Current in-game Rannoch section's "peace" option.

And the faction runing from Rannoch would more likely be the "True Geth," as the geth made it clear that even if they were considering the offer of alegiance, they would have rejected the Reapers had the quarians not attacked. Although I could understand them being spearheaded by the more advanced and experianced Legion. The geth staying behind would be the Heretics, either equal or stronger then the True Geth depending on the Heretic Station mission.

It could also be seen as a bit of a reckoning for the geth, as they have been booted off of Rannoch by a faction they created (Heretics), and make them relate to the quarians a bit more in the game, now that they share the perspective of losing their "home" to the Heretic's takeover, losing everything they built to a group they inadveradently created - just like the quarians. This way, at least the geth would finally have a better understanding of the quarians reasons on why they so desperately want their lost homeworld back.

I like the premise of Xen's virus coming into play. Also, looking at the Geth Hub mission, It seems likely that Xen wouldn't shy away from using Reaper Coding to finsih her virus, or increase it's potancy.

What I doubt in the endgame fight, is the geth attacking in your "healthy state" if Legion returns with evidence of it's peacefull interactions with Tali and Shepard. That would mitugate the geth dislike of the quarians. If it's the Geth V.I. placeholder, then I could understand. Otherwise, they would have to be the ones attacked first.
True Geth and Quarians vs Heretics: I don't really agree with the instant loss if the virus is destroyed, except of you have that Geth V.I. placeholder. Instead, Legion sacrificeing itself to break the Reaper control of the Heretics, spreading it's "truth" over them, is more thematic. Otherwise, if you just have that Geth V.I. then yeah, you'd be screwed.

#118
Lady Abstract

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Cyrax86 wrote...

@QU33N_ANG3L

LOL, serious or just trolling?

Indoctrination usually happens slowly over time, with either the person not knowing, being forced or just being around Reaper tech.

Geth willing chose to side with the Reapers, they weren't forced. The Reapers extended the offer the Geth accepted.

The rest of your argument is borderline nonsense and or irrational hatred toward the Quarians, I can't take it seriously.

On topic: The Quarians regaining their creations would be a nice addition to Renegade, but still i consider the Geth more trouble than their worth


U guys obviously dont pay attention to the story those geth were brainwashed the signals te reapers sent out to them was similar to indoctrination...they didnt willingly choose the reapers its tsated numerous times in the story...what they really wanted was peace to find a purpose for themselves...and everything i stated were in game facts...go playthrough mass effect 1,2, and 3 again and this time pay attention...

Modifié par QU33N_ANG3L, 05 février 2013 - 01:00 .


#119
Lady Abstract

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Hazegurl wrote...

QU33N_ANG3L wrote...

Just face it guys the Quarians are morons and idiots ok??


AND THAT MARKS THE END OF THIS THREAD


I cut your post but I agree with everything! Although I can't say if the Geth Heretics were indocrinated or not but I do wonder how they made contact with the reapers in the first place when they never left the veil. It makes me wonder if the Reapers targetted them first over time. Just like the Rachni Queen said that they weren't themselves during the Rachni Wars. Going by memory on that so I'm not completely sure.

I don't have a problem with posters siding wih the Quarians but making things up about them and their intentions is too much. :mellow: They were a bunch of idiots with a few smart ones sprinkled in there. They have zero loyalty and no sense to put together a decent government. Seriously, Gerrel makes a decision and millions of Quarians just follow it mindlessly into death?

I remember my first trilogy playthrough with Tali giving me the rundown on their history with the Geth and I told her they got what they deserved and meant it. The Geth attacking me didn't make me think any better of the Quarians. During this playthrough in ME3 I decided to actually read the first piece of intel when I regained Spectre status on the Quarians preparations for war and I was pleasantly surprised when I saw that they were preparing for the reaper invasion. Only to read the last sentence stating they were really preparing to attack the Geth. I just sighed. I knew then that my first choice to kill them when I played ME3 (first time playing the game) was the right choice.


In mass effect one it said the reapers sought out the geth...one of these days im going to make a youtube video highlighting all the points asnwering everyones questions so there will be no more speculation 

#120
TheGinosaji

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silverexile17s wrote...
Hackett knew FULL WELL Shepard was in the tower, and STILL fired. Even disregarding Shepard, there are still lives on the Presidum where the thing is killed that could be harmed by debris and the blast, but Hackett fires anyway, because they can't affort to waste the chance to kill it.
It's a tactical decision of war. You HAVE to make them, and Gerrel was in no different a position then Hackett.


Sovereign was attacking the Citadel, and was an immediate threat to beginning a Reaper invasion that would mean the end of all advanced life in the galaxy.

Han'Gerrel initiated a petty and unnecessary war to take back their homeworld, and no one would be in any danger had he just retreated while the dreadnought was disabled. 

Hackett's decision was a necessary tactical decision that may have saved trillions; Han'Gerrel was just being selfish, unappreciative, and irresponsible. He needlessly put my life and the lives of his fellow Quarians at risk numerous times. I punched him in the gut and kicked him off my ship and, frankly, he deserved worse.

Don't for one second try to tell me Han'Gerrel is in any way comparable to Hackett. 

Modifié par TheGinosaji, 05 février 2013 - 01:08 .


#121
Paranoidal nemesis

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Some people have said that the Qurians are the bad guys, because the Geth were evil in the first two games. Even in Mass Effect 1, whenever you talk to Tali about the Geth, every option (paragon or renegade) blames the quarians. In ME2, everything about Legion tells says contradiction the notion that all Geth are evil, and if that's not enough, everything the Qurians do in ME3 makes you want to kill therm. They went to war when the reapers invaded, attacked the "peaceful," try to kill you, and on top of that, you never see anything from the quarians perspective (there is an entire level based on the geth's).

Also, just reading codex entries from a crossed the games should give you an idea of how hated the Qurians are; the counsel bombed a world the quarians attempted to settle on, the counsel forbids them from trying to reclaim their world (they kinda face extinction if they didn't retake it), and not to mention that the galaxy's opinion of them is only slightly higher than it is of the Geth (that can probably be debated too).

Its not so much that controlling the geth should have been on option, as it is the quarians getting screwed over throughout the trilogy. Their the only race that can become completely extinct since even siding with them results in some surviving geth (asari counselor mentions it).

#122
Dunabar

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Smeffects wrote...

Dunabar wrote...

So to me it clearly comes down to this.

Talk the quarians down peacefully - Geth get free will
Threaten the quarians with death - Geth get free will
Destroy the quarians - Geth get free will
Quarians survive - Geth are destroyed

Seems a little unfair to me.


Im not sure you are thinking straight. Quarians are the one attacking the Geth, how exactly would you threaten the geth into peace with the quarians, when legion/geth told you they want peace, kind of a waste to threaten people or talk down people for things they already want. The quarians are the people you need to convince of peace on rannoch, not the geth. You dont have to talk the geth away from attacking, they are only reacting to quarians attacks. The Quarians are also gaining exactly what they wanted in 3 of the conclusion (except when they are destroyed), their homeworld back. So its 3 for 3.

Talk the quarians down peacefully - Geth get free will - Quarians gets their homeworld back.
Threaten the quarians with death - Geth get free will - Quarians gets their homeworld back.
Destroy the quarians - Geth get free will - Quarians dont get their homeworld back.
Quarians survive - Geth dont get free will - Quarians get their homeworld back.




Yet in one Shep threatens the Quarians, so why couldn't we have the option to inform legion (Even if it was just a bluff or whatever) "Know this, I will ensure the destruction of your race if this thing goes sideways" or whatever? Yes I get the Paragon has to play the nice person and I know the Renegade chooses a questionable means to obtain a means of good. So why couldn't that questionable means not revolve around giving Legion a warning?

#123
silverexile17s

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TheGinosaji wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...
Hackett knew FULL WELL Shepard was in the tower, and STILL fired. Even disregarding Shepard, there are still lives on the Presidum where the thing is killed that could be harmed by debris and the blast, but Hackett fires anyway, because they can't affort to waste the chance to kill it.
It's a tactical decision of war. You HAVE to make them, and Gerrel was in no different a position then Hackett.


Sovereign was attacking the Citadel, and was an immediate threat to beginning a Reaper invasion that would mean the end of all advanced life in the galaxy.

Han'Gerrel initiated a petty and unnecessary war to take back their homeworld, and no one would be in any danger had he just retreated while the dreadnought was disabled. 

Hackett's decision was a necessary tactical decision that may have saved trillions; Han'Gerrel was just being selfish, unappreciative, and irresponsible. He needlessly put my life and the lives of his fellow Quarians at risk numerous times. I punched him in the gut and kicked him off my ship and, frankly, he deserved worse.

Don't for one second try to tell me Han'Gerrel is in any way comparable to Hackett. 

Petty and unessessary? The Reapers destroyed the entire Alliance Second fleet - a hardend military fleet. The Turian Hierarchy at full strength couldn't do more then slow and delay the Reaper assault. What chance does a fleet of repurposed tugs have against a formation of Sovergien-class ships? Either they find a world for their civilians, or they all die. The Council revoked most of their rights to colonize worlds. No world they have found has been given to them. The Reapers mean that there is hardly a chance to find anything sanctioned by the Council NOW. And as far as the galaxy knew, the geth were Reaper allies.
They NEVER claimed responcibilaty for the Heretics, nor said openly that they didn't support the actions. The only word there is comes from Legion, and backed by Shepard. Which didn't count for much at the time, thanks to the Commander's supposed death and sudden ressurection, Cerberus ties, harboring criminals (Kasumi, Jack, possibly Thane), supposed terrorists (Miranda, Jacob) and vigilantes (Garrus, technically Samara, if not for her diplomatic-level Justicar immunity), messing with genophage data, working with criminals (Aria T'Loak), and of course, the Alpha Relay incident. And the geth STILL just sat there while Palaven and Earth burned. And while Cerberus was running rampant.
So there was NOTHING that could solidly prove the geth were friendly, or hell, even neutral. The quairans figured two birds, one stone. Kill Reaper proxies, get our homeworld back.

And Xen's flashbang tech was garunteed to provide a victory against the geth, so they thought they had it won. They never expected the Reapers to provide upgrades that countered the tech.



You say that Gerrel ISN'T like Hackett? They are wholey one and the same: Military commanders in tough positions.
Attacking the geth dreadnought IS saving lives. Either they take it out now, or let it carve out another 10% of the Mirgant Fleet - the exact same as Hackett's choice to attack Sovergien. Wait, and the Reaperized geth will salvage it in a day, and it will be carving up the fleet AGAIN in 24+ hours.

Also, at that point, they falsly assumed that Shepard had stopped the
Reaper Signal, when it was still going, albiet weakened. Had they pulled
out, they would have run right into the geth's rear blockade. So Gerrel
actually made the right move, as heading to the relay would have caused unexpected casualties, because the geth would still have the upgrades.

I MOST CERTINLY WILL Tell you that Han'Gerrel and Hackett are compairble. They are the same template. Han'Gerrel is where Hackett would be, had humanity been in the same position as the quarians had for 300 years.

#124
DeinonSlayer

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TheGinosaji wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...
Hackett knew FULL WELL Shepard was in the tower, and STILL fired. Even disregarding Shepard, there are still lives on the Presidum where the thing is killed that could be harmed by debris and the blast, but Hackett fires anyway, because they can't affort to waste the chance to kill it.
It's a tactical decision of war. You HAVE to make them, and Gerrel was in no different a position then Hackett.


Sovereign was attacking the Citadel, and was an immediate threat to beginning a Reaper invasion that would mean the end of all advanced life in the galaxy.

Han'Gerrel initiated a petty and unnecessary war to take back their homeworld, and no one would be in any danger had he just retreated while the dreadnought was disabled. 

Hackett's decision was a necessary tactical decision that may have saved trillions; Han'Gerrel was just being selfish, unappreciative, and irresponsible. He needlessly put my life and the lives of his fellow Quarians at risk numerous times. I punched him in the gut and kicked him off my ship and, frankly, he deserved worse.

Don't for one second try to tell me Han'Gerrel is in any way comparable to Hackett.

What are the chances of finding a Turian colony which is willing and able to accept an influx of millions of refugees with finicky diets? One which isn't under Reaper attacK? The Quarians needed a place to offload their civilian populace if they were to take part in the war against the Reapers. That's non-negotiable. They are utterly dependent on the liveships otherwise and the fleet cannot split up, defend, and feed itself at the same time. They needed a world to shelter their civilians. A world that could feed them. A world, preferably, where a suit breach wouldn't spell death, and where the Quarian species could survive long-term in the event that the Migrant Fleet never comes back for them.

Rannoch is the only match. The Geth are holding it. They've severed negotiations, and they've spent the last three centuries killing anyone who so much as sticks their nose across the border. It doesn't sound "petty and unnecessary" to me.

Geth isolationism is as much to blame for this war as anything the Quarians did. That reaper arrived on Rannoch before the Quarian invasion - while the Quarians were mulling over whether to go to war with the Geth, the Geth were deciding which side to fight on. The Reaper invasion forced the Quarians to invade. The had nowhere else to go, and if the Reapers caught them in space, they'd be dead. The Quarian invasion, in turn, shifted the Geth in favor of siding with the Reapers.

As for the dreadnought, surely you noticed that every Geth on board was still hostile (under Reaper control) after unplugging Legion? They'd be working on repairs, and if they got shields and weapons back up, that dreadnought would have gone right back to tearing into your only allies in the system. The Geth (sans Legion) cannot even be marginally thought of as friends until Reaper control is disengaged through the destruction of the Reaper Destroyer. You'd have as much luck shaking hands with a husk.

Shepard may not like the risk Gerrel took, but destroying the dreadnought before it became unassailable again spared an untold number of ships. I doubt Koris' crew appreciates Shepard abandoning them to the Geth, either, but that, too, services the greater objective.
[list][/list]

#125
Hazegurl

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silverexile17s wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...

Cyrax86 wrote...

the Geth dreadnought was coming back online, it would have continued firing on the Quarians while trapping Shep inside. Any way are you going to attack the alliance or doom humanity to extinction because Hackett shot at you?

No, Gerrel ordered the attack cause the the dreadnaught was offline and they had the advantage. Gerrel attacked immidiately then started talking crap about how he was doing it cause the Geth were now vulnerable. Gerrel was willing to scarifice Shepard, Tali/other quarian lady on the ship if it meant destorying the Geth. He didn't give two craps if Shep and his/her squad made it out alive. Hackett on the other hand contacted Shepard to assess the situation and S/he gave permission to do whatever it took. Shepard was willing to die if it meant the Allanice could take down Cerberus and use the catalyst. Shepard was not willing to die so the Quarians can pew pew the Geth for their stupid homeworld. Hence the reason why there is the option to punch Gerrel and kick his butt off his/her ship. It's not the same but if you want to keep beliving that, then that's fine for you.

Hackett didn't contact Shepard before blowing up Sovereign right next to the Citadel Tower you were positioned in. It was offline, the Alliance had the advantage - they took it. So what if you nearly got crushed?

You're free to react however you want. If an egoistic, emotional outburst is the most character-appropriate reaction, more power to you. If you believe extinction is a proper punishment... I don't know what to say to you. As far as the dreadnought goes, I go with the Paragon response in that instance: "You did the right thing. Just give me a heads-up next time."


I agree with Hackett firing on Sovereign. How was he to know Shep was in the Citadel tower? He knew he was in the Citadel. On top of that the fight with Saren and Sovereign was Shep's fight. If he died in it then it was his battle to die in. Not dying to fight someone else's fight, that they wouldn't be having if they didn't start it in the first place. In ME3 my Shep had bigger fish to fry then the freaking Geth conflict once again. The Quarians got stuck between a rock and a hard place because they started a war they couldn't finish. An illegal war mind you, in the middle of a full scale reaper invasion. He didn't have time for this shyt and if he didn't need their fleet he wouldn't have bothered in the first place. Then he finds out that the Geth were preparing to fight the reapers. Then all I could think of was that the Geth's resources were being used to fight the quarians instead of the Reapers they were preparing for and it's all the Quarians fault.

Once again, you can try to reach for similarities all you like to excuse the Quarian's a**backwards stupidity but my Shep is not an emotional headcase who wishes to destroy the Geth because the Quarians told him to. Good for you that you thought it was cool to die for the quarian homeworld. My Shep on the other hand had Reapers to fight and his own planet to save. See, that's why this game have choices. B)

Um, Joker TALKED to Shepard from the Normandy. He KNEW Shepard was in the tower, because THAT'S where the master control unit for the Station and the Relay network are stationed. The relays could only be unlocked to let the fleet in if Shepard was there. Ergo, Hackett knew FULL WELL Shepard was in the tower, and STILL fired. Even disregarding Shepard, there are still lives on the Presidum where the thing is killed that could be harmed by debris and the blast, but Hackett fires anyway, because they can't affort to waste the chance to kill it.
It's a tactical decision of war. You HAVE to make them, and Gerrel was in no different a position then Hackett.


As stated before. Hackett made the right call concerning firing on the Citadel. Gerrel was a selfish nitwit who pew pews his own race into extinction. Huge difference.  Also, as stated before. It was Shep's fight to die in if he did. The Quarians were fighting an illegal war that Shep wouldn't have even been a part of if the Quarians weren't so freaking irrational.

And the geth had a Reaper on Rannoch that couldn't have JUST flown in past the Migrant Fleet, without drawing attention. That Reaper was on Rannoch BEFORE they took them over.


The Quarians did not care about the reaper invasion or the reaper on Rannoch. They attacked the Geth because they were being sneaky and knew the council were too busy preparing for the reapers. But nice head cannon though. You make the quarians smarter than they actually are in game.
 

The quarians lost 99% of their people. They can't survive in open atmosphere. They were always denied the rights colonize any other world by the Council. They lost any other chance of it when the Reapers came in. The're fleet is a sitting duck for the Reapers, if they don't find anywhere to let their civilians hunker down. The geth are still assumed to be Reaper allies. The quarians had a virus-based weapon that could garuntee victory against geth ships. There may never be another chance because the Reapers are torching and harvesting everything around them.


Quarians didn't care about hunkering down for a reaper invasion. They only cared about beating the Geth. Hence is why they pew pew themselves to death doing it. The Quarians really cared about their civilians. So much so that they attached heavy weapons to the ships their families and children are on and put them in the middle of a battle. :lol:

Your Shep seems more SELFISH then "cool." Losing Earth should make YOU of all people understand what it means to have all that back in your grasp, even more so since it the first time in 300 years the quarians have been this close.
Any Shepard that knows about love and loss should see where quarians are coming fromB)B)


I love my Shep. He maybe selfish in some ways (Renagades are to a point) but he does the right thing and is no bleeding heart who honors stupidity. The Geth were preparing to fight reapers, he's spending all his time preparing the entire galaxy for a reaper invasion and yet the Quarians use their resources to fight Geth and revisit the conflict which Shep resolved in ME2 (My Shep destoryed the Heretics). And Humans didn't create the reapers, they didn't start a war with the reapers. No one is deserving of losing their homeworld to reapers. The Quarians however, brought their fate on themselves.

Modifié par Hazegurl, 05 février 2013 - 08:15 .