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[Smeffects]

Dunabar wrote...

Smeffects wrote...

Dunabar wrote...

So to me it clearly comes down to this.

Talk the quarians down peacefully - Geth get free will
Threaten the quarians with death - Geth get free will
Destroy the quarians - Geth get free will
Quarians survive - Geth are destroyed

Seems a little unfair to me.

Im not sure you are thinking straight. Quarians are the one attacking the Geth, how exactly would you threaten the geth into peace with the quarians, when legion/geth told you they want peace, kind of a waste to threaten people or talk down people for things they already want. The quarians are the people you need to convince of peace on rannoch, not the geth. You dont have to talk the geth away from attacking, they are only reacting to quarians attacks. The Quarians are also gaining exactly what they wanted in 3 of the conclusion (except when they are destroyed), their homeworld back. So its 3 for 3.

Talk the quarians down peacefully - Geth get free will - Quarians gets their homeworld back.
Threaten the quarians with death - Geth get free will - Quarians gets their homeworld back.
Destroy the quarians - Geth get free will - Quarians dont get their homeworld back.
Quarians survive - Geth dont get free will - Quarians get their homeworld back.

Yet in one Shep threatens the Quarians, so why couldn't we have the option to inform legion (Even if it was just a bluff or whatever) "Know this, I will ensure the destruction of your race if this thing goes sideways" or whatever? Yes I get the Paragon has to play the nice person and I know the Renegade chooses a questionable means to obtain a means of good. So why couldn't that questionable means not revolve around giving Legion a warning?

Because the Geth you are talking to already told you he doesent want it to go sideways, unlike the quarian leaders. How exactly to you threaten legion to do what he is already doing. How stupid would that dialogue be?

Legion: Shepard comander we want to have peace with the creator and welcome them to the homeworld if they stop the attack.

Shepard: Legion you need to want peace and to let the quarian have their homeworld back or ill destroy you.

Legion: Shepard comander?

How exactly do you threaten someone that pruposed peace first? How would you threaten him into peace? Do you even understand what you are saying. That dialogue wouldnt even make sense.  You dont need to convince legion or some of the peaceful quarian, thats why the Renegade or Paragon doesent touch them. They already agree that peace is better. You need to convince the quarian admirals and their followers that started the war. Convincing someone that suggested what you are trying to convince them of is retarded?

Modifié par Smeffects, 05 février 2013 - 08:46 .

[silverexile17s]

Hazegurl wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...

Cyrax86 wrote...

the Geth dreadnought was coming back online, it would have continued firing on the Quarians while trapping Shep inside. Any way are you going to attack the alliance or doom humanity to extinction because Hackett shot at you?

No, Gerrel ordered the attack cause the the dreadnaught was offline and they had the advantage. Gerrel attacked immidiately then started talking crap about how he was doing it cause the Geth were now vulnerable. Gerrel was willing to scarifice Shepard, Tali/other quarian lady on the ship if it meant destorying the Geth. He didn't give two craps if Shep and his/her squad made it out alive. Hackett on the other hand contacted Shepard to assess the situation and S/he gave permission to do whatever it took. Shepard was willing to die if it meant the Allanice could take down Cerberus and use the catalyst. Shepard was not willing to die so the Quarians can pew pew the Geth for their stupid homeworld. Hence the reason why there is the option to punch Gerrel and kick his butt off his/her ship. It's not the same but if you want to keep beliving that, then that's fine for you.

Hackett didn't contact Shepard before blowing up Sovereign right next to the Citadel Tower you were positioned in. It was offline, the Alliance had the advantage - they took it. So what if you nearly got crushed?

You're free to react however you want. If an egoistic, emotional outburst is the most character-appropriate reaction, more power to you. If you believe extinction is a proper punishment... I don't know what to say to you. As far as the dreadnought goes, I go with the Paragon response in that instance: "You did the right thing. Just give me a heads-up next time."

I agree with Hackett firing on Sovereign. How was he to know Shep was in the Citadel tower? He knew he was in the Citadel. On top of that the fight with Saren and Sovereign was Shep's fight. If he died in it then it was his battle to die in. Not dying to fight someone else's fight, that they wouldn't be having if they didn't start it in the first place. In ME3 my Shep had bigger fish to fry then the freaking Geth conflict once again. The Quarians got stuck between a rock and a hard place because they started a war they couldn't finish. An illegal war mind you, in the middle of a full scale reaper invasion. He didn't have time for this shyt and if he didn't need their fleet he wouldn't have bothered in the first place. Then he finds out that the Geth were preparing to fight the reapers. Then all I could think of was that the Geth's resources were being used to fight the quarians instead of the Reapers they were preparing for and it's all the Quarians fault.

Once again, you can try to reach for similarities all you like to excuse the Quarian's a**backwards stupidity but my Shep is not an emotional headcase who wishes to destroy the Geth because the Quarians told him to. Good for you that you thought it was cool to die for the quarian homeworld. My Shep on the other hand had Reapers to fight and his own planet to save. See, that's why this game have choices.

Um, Joker TALKED to Shepard from the Normandy. He KNEW Shepard was in the tower, because THAT'S where the master control unit for the Station and the Relay network are stationed. The relays could only be unlocked to let the fleet in if Shepard was there. Ergo, Hackett knew FULL WELL Shepard was in the tower, and STILL fired. Even disregarding Shepard, there are still lives on the Presidum where the thing is killed that could be harmed by debris and the blast, but Hackett fires anyway, because they can't affort to waste the chance to kill it.
It's a tactical decision of war. You HAVE to make them, and Gerrel was in no different a position then Hackett.

As stated before. Hackett made the right call concerning firing on the Citadel. Gerrel was a selfish nitwit who pew pews his own race into extinction. Huge difference.  Also, as stated before. It was Shep's fight to die in if he did. The Quarians were fighting an illegal war that Shep wouldn't have even been a part of if the Quarians weren't so freaking irrational.

And the geth had a Reaper on Rannoch that couldn't have JUST flown in past the Migrant Fleet, without drawing attention. That Reaper was on Rannoch BEFORE they took them over.

The Quarians did not care about the reaper invasion or the reaper on Rannoch. They attacked the Geth because they were being sneaky and knew the council were too busy preparing for the reapers. But nice head cannon though. You make the quarians smarter than they actually are in game.
 

The quarians lost 99% of their people. They can't survive in open atmosphere. They were always denied the rights colonize any other world by the Council. They lost any other chance of it when the Reapers came in. The're fleet is a sitting duck for the Reapers, if they don't find anywhere to let their civilians hunker down. The geth are still assumed to be Reaper allies. The quarians had a virus-based weapon that could garuntee victory against geth ships. There may never be another chance because the Reapers are torching and harvesting everything around them.

Quarians didn't care about hunkering down for a reaper invasion. They only cared about beating the Geth. Hence is why they pew pew themselves to death doing it. The Quarians really cared about their civilians. So much so that they attached heavy weapons to the ships their families and children are on and put them in the middle of a battle.

Your Shep seems more SELFISH then "cool." Losing Earth should make YOU of all people understand what it means to have all that back in your grasp, even more so since it the first time in 300 years the quarians have been this close.
Any Shepard that knows about love and loss should see where quarians are coming fromB)

I love my Shep. He maybe selfish in some ways (Renagades are to a point) but he does the right thing and is no bleeding heart who honors stupidity. The Geth were preparing to fight reapers, he's spending all his time preparing the entire galaxy for a reaper invasion and yet the Quarians use their resources to fight Geth and revisit the conflict which Shep resolved in ME2 (My Shep destoryed the Heretics). And Humans didn't create the reapers, they didn't start a war with the reapers. No one is deserving of losing their homeworld to reapers. The Quarians however, brought their fate on themselves.

1. It's NO DAMN DIFFERENT. And the quarians, like the batarians, krogan, vorcha, and geth, are not governed by Citadel law, so the laws on war DO NOT APPLY to them. And since the Citadel attack, the geth have been declared a faction at open war with the Council. There is NO LAW prohibiting a fight with a faction that is considered in an "At War" status with the Council.
If Gerrel didn't shoot then and there, that ship would have been salvaged and repaired in hours, and would cut the fleet apart the next day. It was JUST LIKE SOVERGIEN, and Gerrel was in the EXACT SAME PLACE AS HACKETT.
Either he shoots NOW, or risks HIS ENTIRE RACE dying under the guns of that thing when it comes back tommorow. And besides, since the quarians were wrong about the Reaper signal ending with the Dreadnought, pulling out would have ploughed them right into the still-intact geth blockade around the Relay. If Gerrel had pulled out, they would have been struck down by the still-Reaper upgraded geth and never knew what happened.
Gerrel made THE RIGHT CALL.  There was nothing morornic about it.

2.YOU are the one using headcannon. The Reapers were THE ENTIRE  REASON for their trying to take back Rannoch NOW. There is no where else to GO. No turian colony (they are dextros, so only dextro worlds could support them) would activally accept that many high-matinence refugees. And no other world has the ecology where suit ruptures won't kill.
It's basically FACT that that Reaper was on Rannoch beforehand. That base it was at was too fortified to have been done AFTER the quarians arrived in-system, which was when the signal transmitted. That Reaper WAS on Rannoch. The geth had a Reaper on Rannoch BEFORE the fighting. That's NOT headcannon. It's common sense. USE it.
They were still on the fence about joining either side, after seeing how the Reapers seemed to be winning.

3. You... You...
I'm sorry, but YOU ******. LOOK what the Reapers did to TWO FLEETS of Alliance warships. LOOK what they did to the Turian fleet - the STRONGEST FLEET. The batarians too! What the HELL do you think OUTDATED TUG LIVESHIPS loaded with CIVILIANS will do? How long do you think THEY will last?!
Re-taking Rannoch was their LAST HOPE TO LIVE. Staying in fragile ships, with giant killer space-squids that can tear over a dozen or more fully armed warships apart before dropping, is a DEATH SENTANCE.
Going against Still believed-to-be Reaper allies, with what was a GARUNTEED VICTORY WEAPON, ISN'T.

They get their world back, and they take away what everyone still believes is a Reaper proxy faction. Only a few knew differently. So STOP saying the quarians did it to themselves. They had little choice. I mean, where did you THINK they could go?!
And they would have needed to attach the liveships with weapons ANYWAY. In a war with giant space-squids that could come after you at ANY MOMNENT, I'D sure as hell be strapping guns on anything I could mount them on.

4.  "the geth were preping to fight?" Then where the HELL were they when the Reapers lit up Palaven and Earth? Or when the Citadel was under Cerbeurs occupation. Why the hell did they not talk to anyone? Or come out of isolation after ME2? Why stay isolated if they were going to fight. Why allow a Reaper on Rannoch WELL BEFORE the quarian attack? Why did they not openly announce "We are not Reaper supporters"?
The geth were on the fence.

And where else were the quarians supposed to GO? Where else COULD they go? The geth weren't listed allies - in fact, the Council never recinded the "State of War" order they placed on the Heretics, so the geth are still considered enemies of the free galaxy at that point.
Rannoch has everything they need to rebuild after the war, and everything they need to ensure they're civilians have a safe place to be, where they are less of a target then their ships are.
The geth had no cause to push the quarians out of their homes, or kill so many. The geth's overzelousness and isolationist nature brought this war on just as much as quarian desperation and hastness.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 05 février 2013 - 10:20 .

[Dunabar]

Smeffects wrote...
Because the Geth you are talking to already told you he doesent want it to go sideways, unlike the quarian leaders. How exactly to you threaten legion to do what he is already doing. How stupid would that dialogue be?

Legion: Shepard comander we want to have peace with the creator and welcome them to the homeworld if they stop the attack.

Shepard: Legion you need to want peace and to let the quarian have their homeworld back or ill destroy you.

Legion: Shepard comander?

How exactly do you threaten someone that pruposed peace first? How would you threaten him into peace? Do you even understand what you are saying. That dialogue wouldnt even make sense.  You dont need to convince legion or some of the peaceful quarian, thats why the Renegade or Paragon doesent touch them. They already agree that peace is better. You need to convince the quarian admirals and their followers that started the war. Convincing someone that suggested what you are trying to convince them of is retarded?

If it was put in the way you worded it, that would just be ugh. However this doesn't mean I agree with you.

Shep could have informed legion "If I order the admiral to stop firing and your people start to open fire after, I will ensure that the destruction of the geth is swift" or whatever. Basically showing very little trust in Legion's plans, which if Legion is this living creature the Geth supporters believe it to be. Legion could view this as Shepard isn't joking around or hiding any willingness to destroy the Geth if they don't keep up their end of the deal. Shepard could in turn inform the Quarians to halt fire but be ready just incase anything goes wrong. Han'Gerrel shows a moment of pause and Shepard informs him "The mission parameter has changed, Admiral, halt fire for now but be ready just incase" to which everything finally plays out with the Geth getting their individuality.

However if we could replace the renegade option entirely, we could have Xen's rewrite which as I stated before; Where there is a will, there is a way. Sadly the idea of "rewrite/enslave" the geth was never taken into consideration apparently or Bioware just prefered not to have it in the game.

The Renegade option could have played it off just like you were going along with legion's plan, but the moment legion prepares to upload the reaper code, Shep can order Admiral Han'Gerrel to stand down and order Xen to begin uploading (Just to put a name on the thing) the "Quarian code".

Legion turns to you and says "This is not what we wanted for our people"

Shep could in turn reply "I do not trust your people to stay out of Reaper control again"

Legion gets angry, a fight breaks out, and suddenly legion stops after a few moments as the Quarian code takes over.

I'm by no means a professional writer so it would be better left in BioWare's hands, but all of this could have been in planning with Xen before the final attack on Rannoch.

[Cyrax86]

@silverexile17s

Quarians are expected to help everyone, yet no one helps the Quarians. Geth supporters, doom all the Quarians because Quarians admiralty board = all Quarians, but Geth Heretics = /= all geth. Gerrel shoots at the Geth dreadnought believing its the source of the Reaper signal, all Quarians must pay for it, Geth have been shooting at me for the past 2 games, yet its not okay to blame the Geth.

But the Quarians didn't try for peace, Tali and Legion were having peace talks, Legion stopped communicating with Tali. Anytime anything entered Geth space it was shot down.

Legion stated that it would never willing work with the Reapers, and yet he is captured, imprisoned and being used by the Reapers. How did they get Legions platform, the Quarians didn't hand over Legion, there are no Reaper ground forces on Rannoch(excluding the Reaper).?

[FlyingSquirrel]

I don't think the quarian leadership would ever go along with that aside from Xen. Koris would oppose it for ethical reasons, and of the trio of Tali, Gerrel, and Raan, I'm betting at least two of them would say it's too big of a risk if nothing else. Tali and Raan might be sympathetic to Koris's stance as well, especially Tali given her experience with Legion.

[Dunabar]

FlyingSquirrel wrote...

I don't think the quarian leadership would ever go along with that aside from Xen. Koris would oppose it for ethical reasons, and of the trio of Tali, Gerrel, and Raan, I'm betting at least two of them would say it's too big of a risk if nothing else. Tali and Raan might be sympathetic to Koris's stance as well, especially Tali given her experience with Legion.

I'm going to do this from the perspective of peace being impossible to achieve

Xen would definitly go along with it for obvious reasons.

Koris wouldn't go along with it without a doubt being a Geth apologist and all. However I could see him approving it over destroying the geth outright if these were the only options. I do however see him also looking to slap a lot of laws on geth usage, most likely working to ensure the Geth are never used in conflict

Gerrel  -might- be persuaded to go along with it if there was proof it could work. Using the Geth to him could be like using advance unmanned drones. Have them cover the frontline while Strike ops teams harass flanks and the fleet bombards the enemy from orbit. All that is needed to do is repair damaged platforms after each battle

Raan and the patrol fleet could use them to repair damaged ships and scouts during times of war, less combat use than that of say Han'Gerrel and the heavy fleet. Her opinion though I could see being inbetween that of Gerrel and Koris, using the geth as tools and non-combat usage like that of Koris, but still finding a usage for them during war like that of Gerrel.

Tali's opinion I could see swaying depending on circumstances aka Is Legion around? Is Tali Exiled? Is Korris alive? and etc. So if all the measurements for peace are there, she would be highly against Xen's plans. If all measurements for rewrite/enslave are there, she would most likely be very conflicted in the process, not wanting the geth to be rewritten/enslaved but also not wanting them entirely destroyed. If neither measurements of peace or rewrite/enslave are there prefering to just outright destroy the geth entirely.

Again however I'm not a professional writer and would leave it in the hands of BioWare in how things are done in the game.

Modifié par Dunabar, 06 février 2013 - 12:47 .

[Auld Wulf]

Smeffects wrote...

[The geth proposed peace first, how do you threaten them]? How would you threaten [Legion] into peace? Do you even understand what you are saying. That dialogue wouldnt even make sense. You dont need to convince Legion or some of the peaceful quarians, that's why the Renegade or Paragon [options don't] touch them. They already agree that peace is better. You need to convince the quarian admirals and their followers that started the war. Convincing someone that suggested what you are trying to convince them of is retarded?

Yay! Intelligence is of a limited quantity within this thread. It's nice to actually see a few people recogniset hat this is the case. The quarian military is made up of nothing but headcases, headcases who would kill people for nothing else than defending geth; headcases who'd send their own civilian liveships out to die just to defend their own glorious perfection. The quarian civilians realise this, but are scared of them. The geth realise this, and don't know how to deal with them.

The xenophobic, fascist, and frankly batcrap insane quarian military are the ones you have to deal with. War only exists because of the quarian military; in the current timeframe there's only a desire for war because of Gerrel, Xen and their followers. Ask a level-headed quarian how they'd deal with this and the answer would be similar to that of Koris - "Maybe we should just try talking to them?" What people don't seem to understand is that people in the quarian military are clinically, rabidly, inexcusably insane.

Gerrel doesn't care about his own people, he cares about the glory of his victories (and would put his own people to death to ensure those victories). Xen doesn't care about her own people, she cares about controlling them via the geth (and would put her people at risk to ensure that she could control whatever quarians remained alive). Unless one is fatally insane oneself, how could one even stand with those abominations? I hate to iinvoke Godwin's Law, but really, we're looking at people who'd kill or risk their own kind purely for their own gain and desires. They're basically quarian Hitlers. And yes, sending out the last of your people to die in poorly equipped liveships isn't that much less of an atrocity than what our little nutty German did.

So what I'm hearing, here, is people who're being genocide-apologists. They want to see the quarian civilians die, and they want to see the death die (or be controlled). And the geth would just be used to control the remnants of the quarian civilians if they lost. So... what the ever-loving heck, people? How mad do you have to be? Seriously. How mentally unbalanced do you have to be to not see this?

Do you people not understand what would happen? Okay, let's say that Gerrel and Xen get their wish. Most of their people are dead, they have control of the geth and they're now controlling their own people with the fear of death-via-geth. What do you think their first action is going to be after the reaper threat is gone? They're probably just going to pick a target, anyone they don't like, and send the geth out to kill them. The quarian military is insane, and those who're apologists of the quarian-military are similarly insane. Oh, yes, let's put that power in the hands of people who're just looking for their next fight, who're more dangerous and just more bloody off-kilter and dribblingly nutty than the krogans. Yup. That's such a good idea.

Can we just give the geth to the krogans instead? That'd be a more sane option!! :I

Modifié par Auld Wulf, 06 février 2013 - 03:10 .

[Rip504]

I support an enslaved Geth race.

Why? Because people make the Geth out to be a completely innocent race,when in game facts state it is otherwise. Geth are no more innocent of crimes then any other race within the me series. I chose Destroy mainly because the Quarians still benefit from w.e Geth help they had been receiving and I get to wipe out the Geth while becoming a HERO for doing so. Then crawl out of a pile of rocks,move to Rannoch and start the Shepard family tree on Rannoch. While becoming an official Quarian citizen. I would start the Shepard family tree by either adopting or manipulating DNA to make a cross human/Quarian pregnancy a truth. As we all know DNA manipulation is a strong part of ME lore.

Have a nice Day. Quarian love peace.    (Sarcasm)

Team Bioware created a situation where Shepard can become a HERO for killing the Geth. The same situation does not apply for the Quarians. If the Quarians get wiped out,the Galaxy blames the Hostile Synthetic race that rebelled against their creators and maybe some will blame  Shepard as well. So killing the Quairans in the name of the Geth only backs up and strengthens the Catalyst claims. Synthetics will kill Organics. Also if you help the Geth achieve this goal...(as a notable side mention)we might as well call you Saren.

What Organic race is going to trust a Synthetic race that killed an Organic race to survive? Isn't that why the Reapers are here in the first place?

Modifié par Rip504, 06 février 2013 - 04:10 .

[CynicalShep]

[quote]JesseLee202 wrote...

The firepower given to the ships did more for the entire fleet than any armor would. The only reason they can loose the war is because Shepard lets the Geth keep the Reaper code and neglects telling the Quarians about it.[/quote]

He warns them that Geth are coming back online and will destroy them. 

[quote]JesseLee202 wrote...

*sigh* Again, you are wrong. The Quarians cannot seperate the fleet during the operation to retake Rannoch, nor could they without a place to dock the Civilians safely. They could not just leave the Civilian Fleet floating around and awaiting the Reapers without a planet to keep them safe. As you said, all the other planets were getting destroyed by Reapers, Rannoch only had Geth at the time of their initial assault.[/quote]

I would be wrong if I said what you're implying I said. I didn't say separating the fleet during the attack, I said separating if Reapers come and pew pew them.

[quote]JesseLee202 wrote...

That is not accurate, seperating a decaying fleet and spreading them out has to be the worst tactical decision one could make. The Quarians needed a safe place for the Civilian fleet so they could help humanity take back Earth. Leaving their civilians floating around in space waiting to be outgunned, outraced, and ultimately destroyed is incompetent as a leader.

Reapers travel much faster than any ship our galaxy has, why do you keep insisting that the Quarians could just outrun them with ships that are decades old?

The Quarian ships =/= SR2 Escaping from Reapers in persuit.[/quote]

Look, I will say this one more time - there is NO safe place. They'll go down faster if they're on the ground than they will in the air. Nobody will send 1000 Reapers after them, Reapers will probably send a few Big Bads and a little more Destroyers. If Quarians spread out and jump to FTL I can guarantee you at least half of the flotilla would delay its death (likely more than that). On the ground they'd be killed in hours. 

[quote]JesseLee202 wrote...

So your solution, is, to sacrifice the Heavy Fleet or the Patrol Fleet, while the civilians are left ultimately defenseless and doomed anyway?

Sounds to me like Rannoch makes much more sense than that.[/quote]

How? Those fleets can at least fight in space. If they all go and park on the planet Reapers will make short work of them (well, shorter work than they would if they put up a fight, they'll go down faster than anybody in the galaxy anyways). 
 
[quote]JesseLee202 wrote...

Exactly, so don't go parading around claiming the Quarians butchered millions of their own people when that is larger logical jumps than I make.[/quote]

nope

[quote]JesseLee202 wrote...

The Quarians did not kill any large number of their own to even mention it in history. After all the people the Geth were killing, it was only a matter of time before the Quarians helping the Geth changed their minds, and realized they were on the wrong side. This is headcanon. Opinion. This little arguing is pointless here on both our parts.[/quote]

You don't say?
[quote]The quarians placed their worlds under martial law, hunting down even those geth not participating in the hostilities, which was opposed by a large portion of the quarian people. They sheltered geth from the authorities, and were detained or killed as a result. Eventually, the opposition became an outnumbered minority unable to prevent the outbreak of all-out war in 1895 CE[/quote][quote]JesseLee202 wrote...

Agreed. But the "true Geth" did nothing to stop them. If a famliy member said to you that they were going to worship some god that promotes melting organics into goo, and mass murder, would you try to stop them? The true Geth say "Oh hey, sure, yeah, we totally understand. Go on and worship those Reapers."[/quote]

What family? Geth are synthetics, Synthetics don't have families. Geth isolated themselves to avoid conflict. Cerberus is a former Alliance splinter group. Let's burn Earth, shall we? Oh wait, Reapers are already doing just that.

[quote]JesseLee202 wrote...

You try to make it sound as if Gerrel was coming at you with a knife trying to slice your face off. He was trying to destroy the Geth's biggest ship. The only problem I have with this is the lack of warning for incoming fire. He still did the right thing by taking out the Dreadnought.[/quote]

I have a problem with people who try to stab me in the back. You should, too, it'll increase your life expectancy. I have many problems with what he did. First of all, Gerrel is just one Admiral out of 5. Last time I checked only two of them were hell-bent on destroying the Geth. I spoke to Raan that I will buy them enough time to retreat, not to kill me. She agreed. He never warned me. He didn't wait a second although he had no idea that the shutdown was only temporary. He's a crackpot admiral, he has no place in a real war.

[quote]JesseLee202 wrote...

The Quarian sensors showed them they were "completely vulnerable.".[/quote]

That didn't answer my question.

[quote]JesseLee202 wrote...

It was not instantly. He first spoke with Raan, they then agreed to take it out. Shepard and Tali got off that ship in the end anyway, if you can metagame, so can I.[/quote]

You must've played a different game
This is what happened. Both Raan and Tali disagreed with him and he forced Raan's hand. Start at 13:33

[quote]JesseLee202 wrote...

It was a logical outcome. No one told him it would "stay disabled" either. Geth VI only disabled it, assuming that the Geth would not be able to reactivate it is a bad assumption.[/quote]

Sure. I can't say I follow your logical process, however. Shepard went there to stop the signal. He stopped the whole damn ship. Most logical assumption is that Shepard pressed the "snooze" button. Either your logic or Gerrel's logic is bulletproof.

[quote]JesseLee202 wrote...

That is pure metagaming. In the end Shepard and Tali get off the ship in the end, so why does it make you mad at all that Gerrel made a move to take out a ship that would have destroyed the entire fleet.[/quote]

Are you even trying?

[quote]JesseLee202 wrote...

More metagaming. Shepard and Tali were never harmed when he fired on that ship, so what is the problem? They make it out alright (This is why you don't metagame for this argument, it goes no where).[/quote]

It's not metagame,  it's logic. I knew I would get help from the Geth before I even met with the Quarians. The fact that YOU weren't even considering recruiting the Geth because you hate them doesn't make it canon. Besides, Shepard got hurt more than Gerrel in the explosions, why is punching him a problem? Even Tali, who would give anything for her people and doesn't have much love for Geth disagreed with Gerrel's actions. 

Modifié par CynicalShep, 06 février 2013 - 05:36 .

[CynicalShep]

@ Dunabar
Politics don't concern me, I rarely talk about it in RL, nevermind on BSN.

Now, I'll try not to make this too long:
1. Even if the Council gave them that world, which they started settling before asking the Council nothing points to the fact that they would be peaceful. Many Quarians hate the Geth and want them killed as much as they want a home. I wouldn't be surprised if they took a few years to settle and went hunting for them.
2. They didn't have the resources to attack a Council race and it would have been pointless. Reapers would've smashed them regardless. Besides, they already violated the treaty they signed with the Council (do not provoke Geth!!11one). I remind you, a treaty is not a verbal agreement - it's a legally binding paper. Hackett also said that Gerrel was making problems on the Turian border, didn't he? What part of these people looks peaceful to you?
3. Quarians don't want to die out like everybody else? If they don't cooperate they will die regardless of where they are. A running target is harder to shoot than a sitting target. They would have died faster on the planet. Why do you think you find a Elcor Flotilla when their planet is destroyed(side-quest)? Correct, because they had a better chance of survivng in space (which they did).
4. It was bad timing. Your analogy with corners doesn't quite work. Instead - Reapers are in front, Council races are on the right and Geth are on the left. You go to the right - you help Council races fight Reapers; you go left - you fight Geth helped by Reapers. What happens if you stay in that corner?
5. Asari tried guerrila fighting. With 5.5 billion people. With better commandoes. With biotics. With the most advanced technology out there.
6. Check the codex entry I cited above. Quarians had absolutely no problems killing their own.
7. The burden of proof lies on Quarians. Koris spoke to Legion, remember? I agree that they shouldn't have needed Shepard but none of the sides did enough for peace. The only difference is that Geth built a station so that they can upload themselves and get away from Rannoch and Quarians built weapons so that they can kill the Geth
8. Quarians didnt know if the dreadnought will recover, they saw the opening and struck. Gerrel never even asked Shepard what happened. Tali disagrees with him, Koris disagrees with him, Xen is a scientist, not an Admiral and he forces Raan's hand by going on a suicidal run. People are charged with treason for less.
9. I've never played without Legion but I'm pretty sure that the Geth VI is a unique platform as well. None of the other Geth platforms would have been capable of doing what that Geth VI did.
10. Everybody knows Shepard is the de-facto representative. He comes to negotiate on Alliance's behalf, after all. And Tali knows Liara is the SB, who's to say that other Quarians don't? That was unlikely to influence Gerrel's decision. If Shepard and Tali were deemed expendable, SB would have made no difference.

Glad we're keeping this civil.

Modifié par CynicalShep, 06 février 2013 - 05:59 .

[Giantdeathrobot]

Exactly how would retaking Rannoch be a safeguard against Reaper attacks again? Earth fell within hours. Palaven, a fortress world if any exists, barely manages to hold on. Yet you tell me that 17 million Quarians on a planet with no infrastructure whatsoever have even the ghost of a chance at surviving when the Reapers come knocking? Please. They will get absolutely destroyed. The Migrant Fleet has one advantage; mobility. They have a chance at bailing out if the evil cuttlefish catch up. No such chance when your people are stuck on an half-dead rock. The actually wise move would have been to help the galactic community drive back the Reapers. If they lose, well the Quarians are dead anyway. If they win, the galaxy will have a huge debt towards them, easing future negociations as to settling the Quarians. There's billions of planet in the galaxy, don't tell me Rannoch is the only that could properly house Quarians, surely the Turians can spare a rock for their newfound friends. Once victory is acheived and the dust settles, there's plenty of time to find a suitable replacement. So why the urgency?

It's also funny in a meta sense that had they invaded before the Reapers came about, the Quarian's victory would have been flawless. No Reaper code means blind Geth  and an easy extermination.

[silverexile17s]

[quote]CynicalShep wrote...

[quote]JesseLee202 wrote...

The firepower given to the ships did more for the entire fleet than any armor would. The only reason they can loose the war is because Shepard lets the Geth keep the Reaper code and neglects telling the Quarians about it.[/quote]

He warns them that Geth are coming back online and will destroy them. 

[quote]JesseLee202 wrote...

*sigh* Again, you are wrong. The Quarians cannot seperate the fleet during the operation to retake Rannoch, nor could they without a place to dock the Civilians safely. They could not just leave the Civilian Fleet floating around and awaiting the Reapers without a planet to keep them safe. As you said, all the other planets were getting destroyed by Reapers, Rannoch only had Geth at the time of their initial assault.[/quote]

I would be wrong if I said what you're implying I said. I didn't say separating the fleet during the attack, I said separating if Reapers come and pew pew them.

[quote]JesseLee202 wrote...

That is not accurate, seperating a decaying fleet and spreading them out has to be the worst tactical decision one could make. The Quarians needed a safe place for the Civilian fleet so they could help humanity take back Earth. Leaving their civilians floating around in space waiting to be outgunned, outraced, and ultimately destroyed is incompetent as a leader.

Reapers travel much faster than any ship our galaxy has, why do you keep insisting that the Quarians could just outrun them with ships that are decades old?

The Quarian ships =/= SR2 Escaping from Reapers in persuit.[/quote]

Look, I will say this one more time - there is NO safe place. They'll go down faster if they're on the ground than they will in the air. Nobody will send 1000 Reapers after them, Reapers will probably send a few Big Bads and a little more Destroyers. If Quarians spread out and jump to FTL I can guarantee you at least half of the flotilla would delay its death (likely more than that). On the ground they'd be killed in hours. 

[quote]JesseLee202 wrote...

So your solution, is, to sacrifice the Heavy Fleet or the Patrol Fleet, while the civilians are left ultimately defenseless and doomed anyway?

Sounds to me like Rannoch makes much more sense than that.[/quote]

How? Those fleets can at least fight in space. If they all go and park on the planet Reapers will make short work of them (well, shorter work than they would if they put up a fight, they'll go down faster than anybody in the galaxy anyways). 
 
[quote]JesseLee202 wrote...

Exactly, so don't go parading around claiming the Quarians butchered millions of their own people when that is larger logical jumps than I make.[/quote]

nope

[quote]JesseLee202 wrote...

The Quarians did not kill any large number of their own to even mention it in history. After all the people the Geth were killing, it was only a matter of time before the Quarians helping the Geth changed their minds, and realized they were on the wrong side. This is headcanon. Opinion. This little arguing is pointless here on both our parts.[/quote]

You don't say?
[quote]The quarians placed their worlds under martial law, hunting down even those geth not participating in the hostilities, which was opposed by a large portion of the quarian people. They sheltered geth from the authorities, and were detained or killed as a result. Eventually, the opposition became an outnumbered minority unable to prevent the outbreak of all-out war in 1895 CE[/quote][quote]JesseLee202 wrote...

Agreed. But the "true Geth" did nothing to stop them. If a famliy member said to you that they were going to worship some god that promotes melting organics into goo, and mass murder, would you try to stop them? The true Geth say "Oh hey, sure, yeah, we totally understand. Go on and worship those Reapers."[/quote]

What family? Geth are synthetics, Synthetics don't have families. Geth isolated themselves to avoid conflict. Cerberus is a former Alliance splinter group. Let's burn Earth, shall we? Oh wait, Reapers are already doing just that.

[quote]JesseLee202 wrote...

You try to make it sound as if Gerrel was coming at you with a knife trying to slice your face off. He was trying to destroy the Geth's biggest ship. The only problem I have with this is the lack of warning for incoming fire. He still did the right thing by taking out the Dreadnought.[/quote]

I have a problem with people who try to stab me in the back. You should, too, it'll increase your life expectancy. I have many problems with what he did. First of all, Gerrel is just one Admiral out of 5. Last time I checked only two of them were hell-bent on destroying the Geth. I spoke to Raan that I will buy them enough time to retreat, not to kill me. She agreed. He never warned me. He didn't wait a second although he had no idea that the shutdown was only temporary. He's a crackpot admiral, he has no place in a real war.

[quote]JesseLee202 wrote...

The Quarian sensors showed them they were "completely vulnerable.".[/quote]

That didn't answer my question.

[quote]JesseLee202 wrote...

It was not instantly. He first spoke with Raan, they then agreed to take it out. Shepard and Tali got off that ship in the end anyway, if you can metagame, so can I.[/quote]

You must've played a different game
This is what happened. Both Raan and Tali disagreed with him and he forced Raan's hand. Start at 13:33

[quote]JesseLee202 wrote...

It was a logical outcome. No one told him it would "stay disabled" either. Geth VI only disabled it, assuming that the Geth would not be able to reactivate it is a bad assumption.[/quote]

Sure. I can't say I follow your logical process, however. Shepard went there to stop the signal. He stopped the whole damn ship. Most logical assumption is that Shepard pressed the "snooze" button. Either your logic or Gerrel's logic is bulletproof.

[quote]JesseLee202 wrote...

That is pure metagaming. In the end Shepard and Tali get off the ship in the end, so why does it make you mad at all that Gerrel made a move to take out a ship that would have destroyed the entire fleet.[/quote]

Are you even trying?

[quote]JesseLee202 wrote...

More metagaming. Shepard and Tali were never harmed when he fired on that ship, so what is the problem? They make it out alright (This is why you don't metagame for this argument, it goes no where).[/quote]

It's not metagame,  it's logic. I knew I would get help from the Geth before I even met with the Quarians. The fact that YOU weren't even considering recruiting the Geth because you hate them doesn't make it canon. Besides, Shepard got hurt more than Gerrel in the explosions, why is punching him a problem? Even Tali, who would give anything for her people and doesn't have much love for Geth disagreed with Gerrel's actions. [/quote]
1. He never spicified the Reaper upgrades.

2. That's STILL suicide. They CANNOT seperate the ships. They wouldn't have enough covering fire, or support, if the ships are split.
Haven't you ever heard of "United we stand, Divided we fall."? Well, it's a bit more literal for the quarians.

3. Tell that to Earth. Billions still fighting, compaired to EVERYONE on the ships above being DEAD. Hell, more Reapers have been killed ON THE GROUND then in space battles. "The Miricle on Palaven" Codex entry proves that.
The ground is more defensible. And the Reapers won't glass a major population center, as their mandate is to harvest, not exterminate. If they didn't care, they would have Nuked Earth, Palaven, Thessia, and all the others from orbit, instead of just landing and subjugating.

The geth fleet blew the quarians away in minuets if you side with them. Bet the Reapers could  do it faster if they put effort into it.
Anderson kept a resistance active the whole time, and won several victories, small or not. That's better then Hackett, who was overwhelmed as Arcturus and had to let the Second fleet die so that the others can retreat.
Having a world is INFINITLLY better then having only a space home.
Also, you seem INTENT on quarian suicide. The ENTIRE REASON we never see the fleet split up is because they are COMPLETELY INTERDEPENDANT on each-other. Splitting up like that is DEATH to them, as the odds of regrouping are almost NIL. If anything, splitting up will drawe MORE attantion, as it makes the individual ships risk-free targets, which the Reapers won't pass up.
You complain about the quarians not being good tactitans, when any military commander I know, from Hackett to Victus, would gut-punch you for suggesting such a measure on a fleet as worn out and interdependant as the quarians.

4. Earth, Palaven and Thessia are lasting longer in their ground wars then any of the space fleets did. A ground was is PREFIRABLE to space combat regarding the Reapers. Every Reaper that has died on-screen in ME3 was on the ground.
Rannoch is defensible, there are alot of places to capitolize on guralla warfare - the most effective method against Reapers -, and suit ruptures won't mean a death sentance. Plus, they will have a semi-stable power base.

5. Asspull with no backing:wizard: Just saying "nope" doesn't instantly make you right.
How about a REASON as to why that isn't a leap of logic, because I doubt that all those quarian deaths were self inflicted. That's BS if I ever heard it.

6. Oh, gee. Thousands? Ten's of thousands. That's SMALL FRY.
There were BILLIONS of quarians that died. If 17 million is just 1% of the quarian race, then the original was in the billions. You HONESTLY expect people to buy that all those billions died from SELF INFLICTED DAMAGE?
BULL.  S***.
And WHERE does it say in spicifics that the number of quarians sheltering the geth were in overly large numbers?

7. The Heretics are STILL their damned responcibilaty. They can't say they oppose the Reapers, and then just sit back and let them tear a new one in the galaxy. They say they don't want harm to come to organics? If that was true, there would never have been a split between the geth in the first place. Nor would they have willingly let the Heretics leave while knowing full well what they were going to do.
They didn't come out of the Veil in ME3, while Earth and Palaven burned. While the Citadel was invaded by Cerberus.
The geth were isolationists. Their own personal survival was always the primary objective for them.
And the geth never claimed responcibilaty for the Heretics after their attack. Legion was the only geth, and Shepard's word was too suspect to be proper backing (what with the Cerberus ties and the Alpha Relay).

And there ARE people that were calling for Earth blood over what Cerberus has done. People didn't like humans, much like they didn't like the geth. Humans were reckless and viloent. But you know what? Humans were proactively trying to change that ideal. The geth just sat behind the Veil and let that hate for them fester. They are just as responcible for this with ther lack of proactive actions.

8. Tell that to Hackett in ME1 with Sovergien. He knew you were in the Citadel Tower (as Joker relayed that message about Shepard being there ready to unlock the relays), but still fired on Sovergien without warning Shepard about the possibilaty of Sovergein's debris, or of the possibilaty of firendly fire, or cross fire hitting the tower.
You don't seem to have a problem with THAT. And since they ended up being wrong about the Reaper signal being sourced on the dreadnought, they would have run into the still reaper-controlled Geth blockading the relay, and would have been blasted. So, had they retreated, it would actually killed them. Gerrel's gambit actually saved the fleet. And kept the geth from repairing the dreadnought to send back at them, which would have taken just hours to do.
Also, the open comms were a pertty clear warrning. They cut comms AFTER they started firing, but left them open BEFORE. An indication of an early warning to Shepard that they were going to shoot.

Given the circumstances, he did no differently then Hackett did with Sovergien. He's a hell of a better Admiral then you would have appearently been in that situation. He KNOWS how war works.

9. They had a perfect chance to eleminate the threat. Just like Hackett in ME1.

10. But again, there was little choice. That ship would have just been used against them again. It was either take it out NOW, or let it come back and waste them later. Gerrel actually SEES the big picture of warfare, in that these are choices that are not easy, but MUST be made. Raan and Tali are squimish about tactical dicisions like that. They don't like being forced under the spotlight and forced to make reaction decisions in the heat of the moment with millions of lives riding on the answer. Tali tells you as much in the Captians Cabin, on how she doesn't really like being responcible for so many.
But SOMEONE had to take the reins of the flailing Migrant Fleet. And with Koris crashed on Rannoch, Gerrel was the only one to step up to the plate.

11. WHERE exactally does anyone ever say that ship is perminatly disabled? If anything, Gerrel wanting the ship destroyed then and there was proof that it would come back online if left to the geth.

12. From Gerrel's knowlodge, Shepard survived the Debris hitting the Citadel Tower, Horizon, the Collector Ship, the Collector Base, the Alpha Relay, Tuchanka, and has fought a goddamn Threasher Maw on foot. If anything, I think Gerrel would have been surprised if they hadn''t survived.

13. I sure as hell didn't. The geth didn't lift so much as a finger as Earth and Palaven burned.
Shepard was unharmed by that blast. And again, Tali isn't a military commander. She isn't comfortable with command decisions like that.
You don't SEEM to be using complete logic, as you are ignoring key points of war tactics and battlefield logistics.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 25 février 2013 - 07:54 .

[CynicalShep]

@ silverexile17s

1. No, he says "the Geth are about to return to full strength". Pretty self-explanatory.

2. It doesn't apply to this situation. Quarians are not Spartans. They would get slaughtered. The only difference is how fast they die. In air they have superior firepower and mobility. On Rannoch they are a sitting duck.

3. The codex specifically said that Reapers glassed a number of big cities when they hit Earth. One fleet was sacrificed so other can flee. Hackett retreated so that he could preserve the bulk of his forces for one decisive push. Those fleets survived until the allied forces moved to Earth with the Crucible. And don't forget that the entire Quarian population is smaller than Shanghai's population in 2012 (without the suburbs). They would fall in hours.

4. Wrong. There were Reapers that died in space. Only Destroyers were taken down on the ground, all Capital Ships were destroyed in space. They weren't putting a better resistance on the ground, they were being harvested. Fleets were saved for hit and runs and/or an allied attack (end of ME3).

5. How about you go back there and read the codex entry I wrote. I provided proof that a significant part of the Quarians were defending the Geth and paid for it. If you are going to get in an argument with me you'd do well to actually look at what I write ;-)

6. Read nr.5. I'll make it easier for you and put the codex entry here as well:
"The quarians placed their worlds under martial law, hunting down even those geth not participating in the hostilities, which was opposed by a large portion of the quarian people. They sheltered geth from the authorities, and were detained or killed as a result. Eventually, the opposition became an outnumbered minority unable to prevent the outbreak of all-out war in 1895 CE"

7. The only thing Geth knew is that Heretics decided to split. It was a peaceful departure, followed by "Nazara's" plan. Cerberus split themselves for the Alliance. Why aren't you bombing the Alliance for it? Quarians created the Geth. Why are Heretics Geth's responsibility? Why not Quarians'?
Let me explain this differently: let's say California split itself from the US. Then, by some admiral's dumb plan (see what I did there?) they decide to attack Japan. Should Japan declare war to the new Republic of California or to US? Is US responsible that their neighboring country is going to war?

8. First of all, you assumed I am fine with Hackett shooting at Sovereign even though I never said that. Second, Shepard ASKED Hackett to attack Sovereign. That was the plan all along. I agreed with Raan that I am doing this to give them a chance to withdraw safely. Third, you are comparing the death of all advanced organic life with a few extra civilian casualties in a war that shouldn't have happened. That's many, many, many billions as opposed to thousands or even tens of thousands.
They COULD retreat, otherwise the option wouldn't have been given. Gerrel got greedy. Mistakes like that lose wars. I am glad you are so well-versed in how long it takes to repair Geth's flagship. Mind giving me the source of your info? Gerrel's gambit almost got all the Quarian population killed (or got his entire raced killed on other playthroughs) when this war could have been won without firing a shot. That was not an early warning. He moved his fleet forward, thus forcing Raan's hand (she later said something about treason, didn't she?). Raan disagreed with him, Tali disagreed with him and I'm pretty sure Koris wouldn't have agreed with him either. That's 3:2. He just took his fleet and went forward in a suicidal dash, breaking formation. That's stupidity and back-stabbing, not military tactics. I would have made peace without one single shot. I wouldn't bring glass cannons in a bloody war. Even Avina is a better admiral than Koris.

9. Except they were ready to kill the only person who was trying to forge an alliance against the Reapers, one of their admirals and the Shadow Broker (in my case). I let civvies die to save Koris and he kills Shepard to save civvies? Gerrel is even stupider than I thought.

10. Gerrel was an revenge-driven short-sighted fool. He didn't go there to take his homeworld, he went there to exterminate the Geth. That mistake could have costed him the lives of all his people. Military leaders like Shepard are more important than a few civilians. Especially since they asked for Shepard's help and Shepard delivered.

11. It doesn't. Nobody on the board knows what just happened. All they know is that the ship is offline and Tali and Shepard are alive --> mission accomplished. He doesn't even bother to ask what's going on. He immediately grabs the knife and digs it deep into Shepard's back. And you are making wrong assumptions again. There was no proof that the ship will come back online.

12. I can't believe you just made this argument. Why not outright nuke him?

13. First of all, uncomfortable or not - Tali is an admiral. That's a fact. Admirals = military commanders. Second of all, I seem to recall Shepard falling down and having to run a semi-circle to get into the Geth fighter. Third - Quarians didn't lift a finger either. In fact, it was Legion who destroyed the Geth dreadnought and saved Shepard, Tali and Liara (in my case). Legion did more to help Quarians than Gerrel. Hell, Legion did more for the War against reapers than the entire Quarian race. That should tell you what an admiral he is. And Quarians went at war with a potential ally just because of somebody's thirst for revenge.
What do you know about "war tactics" and "battlefield logistics", exactly?

Modifié par CynicalShep, 06 février 2013 - 07:53 .

[DeinonSlayer]

I don't have the time to address the whole post, Cynical, but I did want to note that what you're citing in point six is the wiki entry, not the codex. That's user-maintained, as reliable in relation to canon as any post on these boards.

[CynicalShep]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

I don't have the time to address the whole post, Cynical, but I did want to note that what you're citing in point six is the wiki entry, not the codex. That's user-maintained, as reliable in relation to canon as any post on these boards.

They are quoted verbatim from the codex

[DeinonSlayer]

CynicalShep wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

I don't have the time to address the whole post, Cynical, but I did want to note that what you're citing in point six is the wiki entry, not the codex. That's user-maintained, as reliable in relation to canon as any post on these boards.

They are quoted verbatim from the codex

I just read all three possible entries for the Battle for Rannoch from the link you provided. None of them are related to your post. What you quoted in point six didn't come from any codex entry - it was lifted from the wiki itself (specifically, Geth War). There is no codex entry on the Morning War.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 06 février 2013 - 08:05 .

[CynicalShep]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

CynicalShep wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

I don't have the time to address the whole post, Cynical, but I did want to note that what you're citing in point six is the wiki entry, not the codex. That's user-maintained, as reliable in relation to canon as any post on these boards.

They are quoted verbatim from the codex

I just read all three possible entries for the Battle for Rannoch from the link you provided. None of them are related to your post. What you quoted in point six didn't come from any codex entry - it was lifted from the wiki itself (specifically, Geth War). There is no codex entry on the Morning War.

My bad. This one did indeed come from the Geth War. I used the codex for a different argument.

[Hazegurl]

[quote]silverexile17s wrote...

[quote]Hazegurl wrote...

[quote]silverexile17s wrote...

[quote]Hazegurl wrote...

[quote]DeinonSlayer wrote...

[quote]Hazegurl wrote...

[quote]Cyrax86 wrote...

the Geth dreadnought was coming back online, it would have continued firing on the Quarians while trapping Shep inside. Any way are you going to attack the alliance or doom humanity to extinction because Hackett shot at you?[/quote]No, Gerrel ordered the attack cause the the dreadnaught was offline and they had the advantage. Gerrel attacked immidiately then started talking crap about how he was doing it cause the Geth were now vulnerable. Gerrel was willing to scarifice Shepard, Tali/other quarian lady on the ship if it meant destorying the Geth. He didn't give two craps if Shep and his/her squad made it out alive. Hackett on the other hand contacted Shepard to assess the situation and S/he gave permission to do whatever it took. Shepard was willing to die if it meant the Allanice could take down Cerberus and use the catalyst. Shepard was not willing to die so the Quarians can pew pew the Geth for their stupid homeworld. Hence the reason why there is the option to punch Gerrel and kick his butt off his/her ship. It's not the same but if you want to keep beliving that, then that's fine for you.[/quote]
Hackett didn't contact Shepard before blowing up Sovereign right next to the Citadel Tower you were positioned in. It was offline, the Alliance had the advantage - they took it. So what if you nearly got crushed?

You're free to react however you want. If an egoistic, emotional outburst is the most character-appropriate reaction, more power to you. If you believe extinction is a proper punishment... I don't know what to say to you. As far as the dreadnought goes, I go with the Paragon response in that instance: "You did the right thing. Just give me a heads-up next time."

[/quote]

I agree with Hackett firing on Sovereign. How was he to know Shep was in the Citadel tower? He knew he was in the Citadel. On top of that the fight with Saren and Sovereign was Shep's fight. If he died in it then it was his battle to die in. Not dying to fight someone else's fight, that they wouldn't be having if they didn't start it in the first place. In ME3 my Shep had bigger fish to fry then the freaking Geth conflict once again. The Quarians got stuck between a rock and a hard place because they started a war they couldn't finish. An illegal war mind you, in the middle of a full scale reaper invasion. He didn't have time for this shyt and if he didn't need their fleet he wouldn't have bothered in the first place. Then he finds out that the Geth were preparing to fight the reapers. Then all I could think of was that the Geth's resources were being used to fight the quarians instead of the Reapers they were preparing for and it's all the Quarians fault.

Once again, you can try to reach for similarities all you like to excuse the Quarian's a**backwards stupidity but my Shep is not an emotional headcase who wishes to destroy the Geth because the Quarians told him to. Good for you that you thought it was cool to die for the quarian homeworld. My Shep on the other hand had Reapers to fight and his own planet to save. See, that's why this game have choices.

[/quote]
Um, Joker TALKED to Shepard from the Normandy. He KNEW Shepard was in the tower, because THAT'S where the master control unit for the Station and the Relay network are stationed. The relays could only be unlocked to let the fleet in if Shepard was there. Ergo, Hackett knew FULL WELL Shepard was in the tower, and STILL fired. Even disregarding Shepard, there are still lives on the Presidum where the thing is killed that could be harmed by debris and the blast, but Hackett fires anyway, because they can't affort to waste the chance to kill it.
It's a tactical decision of war. You HAVE to make them, and Gerrel was in no different a position then Hackett.[/quote]

As stated before. Hackett made the right call concerning firing on the Citadel. Gerrel was a selfish nitwit who pew pews his own race into extinction. Huge difference.  Also, as stated before. It was Shep's fight to die in if he did. The Quarians were fighting an illegal war that Shep wouldn't have even been a part of if the Quarians weren't so freaking irrational.

[quote]And the geth had a Reaper on Rannoch that couldn't have JUST flown in past the Migrant Fleet, without drawing attention. That Reaper was on Rannoch BEFORE they took them over. [/quote]

The Quarians did not care about the reaper invasion or the reaper on Rannoch. They attacked the Geth because they were being sneaky and knew the council were too busy preparing for the reapers. But nice head cannon though. You make the quarians smarter than they actually are in game.
 
[quote]The quarians lost 99% of their people. They can't survive in open atmosphere. They were always denied the rights colonize any other world by the Council. They lost any other chance of it when the Reapers came in. The're fleet is a sitting duck for the Reapers, if they don't find anywhere to let their civilians hunker down. The geth are still assumed to be Reaper allies. The quarians had a virus-based weapon that could garuntee victory against geth ships. There may never be another chance because the Reapers are torching and harvesting everything around them.[/quote]

Quarians didn't care about hunkering down for a reaper invasion. They only cared about beating the Geth. Hence is why they pew pew themselves to death doing it. The Quarians really cared about their civilians. So much so that they attached heavy weapons to the ships their families and children are on and put them in the middle of a battle.

[quote]Your Shep seems more SELFISH then "cool." Losing Earth should make YOU of all people understand what it means to have all that back in your grasp, even more so since it the first time in 300 years the quarians have been this close.
Any Shepard that knows about love and loss should see where quarians are coming fromB)
[/quote]

I love my Shep. He maybe selfish in some ways (Renagades are to a point) but he does the right thing and is no bleeding heart who honors stupidity. The Geth were preparing to fight reapers, he's spending all his time preparing the entire galaxy for a reaper invasion and yet the Quarians use their resources to fight Geth and revisit the conflict which Shep resolved in ME2 (My Shep destoryed the Heretics). And Humans didn't create the reapers, they didn't start a war with the reapers. No one is deserving of losing their homeworld to reapers. The Quarians however, brought their fate on themselves.

[/quote]
1. It's NO DAMN DIFFERENT. blah blah.....[/quote]

Which is why they were being sneaky about attacking the Geth. LOL!
No the Geth were not just like Sovereign but keep trying. 
And yeah Gerrel made the right call firing on the Geth without bothering to figure out why one of the Admirals on Rannoch was telling him not to. Which got his whole race killed in the process. Okay.

[quote]2.YOU are the one using headcannon. The Reapers were THE ENTIRE  REASON for their trying to take back Rannoch NOW.

It's basically FACT that that Reaper was on Rannoch beforehand. [/quote]

Headcannon. The Quarians attacked the Geth who were preparing for the reapers. The Geth only turned to the reapers after the Quarian attack. They(The quarians) had no clue a reaper was on Rannoch until it popped out the ground in front of Shep. otherwise they would have told him/her about it and Shep & Tali(an Admiral in my playthroughs) wouldn't have been so freaking shocked to find one there.


[quote]3. You... You...
I'm sorry, but YOU ******. LOOK what the Reapers did to TWO FLEETS of Alliance warships.[/quote]

LOL!! I'm so offended by you blowing a gasket and using bad grammar to call me a ******. No wonder you agree with the Quarians attaching heavy weapons to civilian fleets then taking them into a war with the Geth.

[quote]They get their world back, and they take away what everyone still believes is a Reaper proxy faction. Only a few knew differently. So STOP saying the quarians did it to themselves. They had little choice. I mean, where did you THINK they could go?![/quote]

Uhm, you do realize that in other playthroughs they don't and end up pew pewing themselves to death? Perhaps you've forgotten that in ME3 you actually have a thing called a choice in the matter.  And yeah taking back Rannoch really means something when the reapers are landing on every planet and destorying them. Yeah it's sooo smart to take back a world they can't even properly live on nor even understand the terrian all that well. As a matter of fact the only chance they have of truely being able to live on Rannoch suit free in a shorter amount of time and possibly have a better defense for the reaper invasion is by brokering peace between the Quarians and Geth.


[quote]And they would have needed to attach the liveships with weapons ANYWAY. In a war with giant space-squids that could come after you at ANY MOMNENT, I'D sure as hell be strapping guns on anything I could mount them on.[/quote]

Yet they took them to fight Geth. Geth LOL! Seriously, I feel like Miranda at the beginning of ME2

[quote]4.  "the geth were preping to fight?" Then where the HELL were they when the Reapers lit up Palaven and Earth? Or when the Citadel was under Cerbeurs occupation. Why the hell did they not talk to anyone? Or come out of isolation after ME2? Why stay isolated if they were going to fight. Why allow a Reaper on Rannoch WELL BEFORE the quarian attack? Why did they not openly announce "We are not Reaper supporters"?
The geth were on the fence. [/quote]

Hm, let's see, doing what the Asari and Turians were doing at the start. Protecting their own borders. and if you'd bother to read the intel at the Spectre office you would see that the very first piece of info that comes in at the start of the game is how the Quarians were preparing to fight the Geth. So I would imagine that they attacked sometime around the beginning of the game which means that the Geth were busy fighting your friends, the Quarians. But I doubt they would have come to their (Turian and Human)aid unless Leigon and Shep joined up earlier. Remember, the Geth were blamed for Sovereign and their first contact with humans that didn't end in a pew pew fest was with Shepard who was grounded until the reaper invasion. I may choose destory at the end of my playthroughs but I don't see the Geth as some great enemy here. If you do that is fine, I don't care. People headcannon all the time or interpret what they want from the story. That's why it's an RPG. I simply disagree with you and feel that you are reaching for any reason to make the Quarians right. I disagreed with the Quarians when I first played ME3, then when I played ME1 and 2 I just had a better understanding as to why I disagreed with them. I told Tali they got what they deserved and meant it. And if I can't broker peace between them (which is what I always strive for) I pick the Geth and watch Tali or Ran(I think that's the name of the other one that comes ont he mission) die and call them all stupid to Joker at the end with zero regrets. As far as I'm concerned the Quarians all committed suicide that day.

PS. I love it when Shep can talk the Quarians down by telling them how sick and tired he is of saving them. Awesome speech and I felt the same way. Love Renagade Shep.

[Hazegurl]

Giantdeathrobot wrote...

Exactly how would retaking Rannoch be a safeguard against Reaper attacks again? Earth fell within hours. Palaven, a fortress world if any exists, barely manages to hold on. Yet you tell me that 17 million Quarians on a planet with no infrastructure whatsoever have even the ghost of a chance at surviving when the Reapers come knocking? Please. They will get absolutely destroyed. The Migrant Fleet has one advantage; mobility. They have a chance at bailing out if the evil cuttlefish catch up. No such chance when your people are stuck on an half-dead rock. The actually wise move would have been to help the galactic community drive back the Reapers. If they lose, well the Quarians are dead anyway. If they win, the galaxy will have a huge debt towards them, easing future negociations as to settling the Quarians. There's billions of planet in the galaxy, don't tell me Rannoch is the only that could properly house Quarians, surely the Turians can spare a rock for their newfound friends. Once victory is acheived and the dust settles, there's plenty of time to find a suitable replacement. So why the urgency?

It's also funny in a meta sense that had they invaded before the Reapers came about, the Quarian's victory would have been flawless. No Reaper code means blind Geth  and an easy extermination.

I agree! There is no way Rannoch would have been a safe planet to live on. Especially since they still couldn't live on it without suits and had no true defense against the reapers at all but their ships. Heck that one reaper on Rannoch could have destoryed them all.  I also agree that if they had attacked before the reaper invasion the Geth wouldn't have been able to turn to the reapers so quickly and wouldn't have gotten their hands on the upgrades. I like the idea of the Quarians/Turians relations deal. The Quarians could have went to the Turian's defense and helped them reclaim their moon in exchange for their civilians to be transported to one of the Turians safer planets and ofcourse a full planet of their own after the reaper war is done.

[Nightvayne5749]

The Quarians will end up like the Zha'til Javik mentioned due to they let the geth get pluged in another reason why Synthesis is bad.

[Dunabar]

[quote]CynicalShep wrote...

@ Dunabar
Politics don't concern me, I rarely talk about it in RL, nevermind on BSN. [/quote]

Yeah politics are like the Quarian-Geth conflict, messy business with one side yelling at the other.


[quote]CynicalShep wrote...
1. Even if the Council gave them that world, which they started settling before asking the Council nothing points to the fact that they would be peaceful. Many Quarians hate the Geth and want them killed as much as they want a home. I wouldn't be surprised if they took a few years to settle and went hunting for them. [/quote]

The world of Ekuna was actually discovered by the quarians and yes they did start to settle early before the council recieved their request, however the council gave them one month to depart before they got bombed off of it. This world was ultimately given to the Elcor, who at this time still had their homeworld. So in my personal opinion that was unfair judgement by the council. Now I'm not saying the Quarians would have been more willing to seek peace with the geth, however war with the geth most likely would have dropped several spots on their To do list. So would the quarians most likely start hunting the geth after a few years? Possibly yes, to what degree and how far though? I don't know. However they may have also dropped the idea of war entirely, this is all speculation and opinion though. Anything after here is simply "Agree to disagree"

One thing to keep in mind is the cultural and ancestral attachment to Rannoch the quarians have, even if they were not born there is it wrong to want to walk on the land of their ancestors? To take pride in who they are even if people think their entire racial history is one screw up after the other or whatever?

Example; I'm half Irish and half Italian. While I was born in the United states, part of me still feels Ireland and Italy are home by my ancestral roots even if I have never stepped foot in either country. Is it wrong to feel this way? Is it wrong to take pride in my ancestors and want to walk in the lands that they did?

To some people the belief is "its just land" or "Its just stupid ancestral feelings" and that people should get over it, I won't dive far into it, but if you agree along those lines of thought thats your business. I find it sad and wonder what the ancestors of some people would say if they heard them say that.

[quote]CynicalShep wrote...
2. They didn't have the resources to attack a Council race and it would have been pointless. Reapers would've smashed them regardless. Besides, they already violated the treaty they signed with the Council (do not provoke Geth!!11one). I remind you, a treaty is not a verbal agreement - it's a legally binding paper. Hackett also said that Gerrel was making problems on the Turian border, didn't he? What part of these people looks peaceful to you?[/quote]

Yes they didn't have the resources and yes it would have been pointless, so its further reason not to press potential war issues with the council races by just taking a world and giving them the one finger salute. Reapers would have smashed them regardless because as we know, any one single race cannot take on the Reapers on their own (Yes this of course obviously includes Quarians and Geth)

While I do agree the treaty is a legal binding document, I would also say that unless both parties agree to the treaty (aka Quarians and Geth) I would deem it invalid. However and this is just my personal opinion again, after being denied world after world by the council its no surprise that the quarians flipped them the bird on it. The quarians lost their embassy after the morning war and anything from here on would come down to details that amount to opinions we will most likely just have to agree to disagree on.

Hackett did say Gerrel was causing trouble, but what kind of trouble exactly? Were they raiding shipping lanes? Were they doing fly bys with their advance fighters on stations? Hackett just says "causing trouble" thats pretty vague. I could drive by someones house with my music blasting, that doesn't mean I'm not a peaceful person, just means they don't like that I did that, and that I like having my music cranked up.

[quote]CynicalShep wrote...
3. Quarians don't want to die out like everybody else? If they don't cooperate they will die regardless of where they are. A running target is harder to shoot than a sitting target. They would have died faster on the planet. Why do you think you find a Elcor Flotilla when their planet is destroyed(side-quest)? Correct, because they had a better chance of survivng in space (which they did).[/quote]

Had the council races been more understanding to the position the quarians were in (Even if its a position they feel the quarians brought on themselves) the quarians may have jumped at the "Hey we need aid against the reapers" instead of going with the path of "Okay we will talk about it." Keep in mind, the council races have treated the quarians like second class citizens, the council has denied them worlds when the quarians didn't even have a homeworld, and all the other things the quarians have had to put up with. By showing a willing to talk about it, I feel that shows that they have managed to overlook most of the grief the council races have inflicted upon them over the years since the morning war.

Yes a running target is harder indeed to shoot, but what is harder to shoot between an entirely updated flotilla and a flotilla that is using some ships that are three centuries old? Now this of course can be left to speculation, but I would imagine the Elcor having a homeworld and other worlds they have colonies established on, that they would have a pretty up to date flotilla to jet off in. I'm pretty confident that the quarians  also cannot make their own ships without cannibalising one of their own ships, only upgrade what they have through pillgrimages, purchases, and the likes. These ships however that they acquire are also most likely second hand cast off's (Short form: There is something better I can use, here take this out of date ship)

[quote]CynicalShep wrote...
4. It was bad timing. Your analogy with corners doesn't quite work. Instead - Reapers are in front, Council races are on the right and Geth are on the left. You go to the right - you help Council races fight Reapers; you go left - you fight Geth helped by Reapers. What happens if you stay in that corner?[/quote]

If they go off to help the council right away where will the council allow them to house their civilians? Turians are getting their noses kicked in and they have the most ideal worlds for dextro based organics which is obviously what the quarians are. Quarians have strict diets as well, this is something that has been pretty much forced upon them with having to live in the clean enviroments of the migrant fleet and even then their immune systems are naturally weak anyways because Rannoch had no insect life. The link I provided will explain it and even then I am pretty sure the codex in the game also explains it. Either way the quarians cannot fight this, its just something they've had to accept in their lives.

The geth claim to of not allied with the reapers till the quarians attacked, so the quarians had no plans to fight the reapers and the geth at the same time. Again this is where I mentioned that the reapers aided in turning the tide, not winning the war for the Geth. Shepards influence obviously determines who wins and who loses or makes peace between the two. However I would say that had the Reapers not aided the Geth in the story, we wouldn't of needed to go to Rannoch unless it was to help the quarians fight off reaper forces.

Now just staying in the corner? Do nothing at all and just sit there waiting for the powers that be to determine the fate of the galaxy? Well they cannot do that because they need to get fuel for the ships, get raw materials to make repairs (old ships break down, just how things go), and etc etc. The quarians have to plan the fleets path carefully so they can get access to the resources the most efficient way possible. (Basic concept: Why drive 50 more miles for a gas station thats nowhere near the main road, when there is a gas station 10 miles closer and near the main road?) Surely doing all of this is going to attract the attention of the reapers and sooner or later the quarians won't be able to run anymore. Not saying they cannot go for awhile, but an enemy thats burning up all ends of the galaxy leaves very little room to do repairs, gather fuel for ships, and such.

As for timing of the quarians attack on Geth space, its not clear if "17 days ago" was after the reaper invasion started or 17 days ago and the reaper invasion started somewhere in there. The time of events is not clear, however this will also come down to a matter of opinion no matter where the Reaper invasion started. One side can claim "Well the reapers invaded just as the quarians got started with their war" and another can say "Those dumb***es should have just prepared for the reapers." While yeah idealy we would prefer the quarians to focus on the reapers, the reapers also were not exactly announcing a day and time of invasion (at least to my knowledge) If they were, I would ask if Shepard or Tali managed to get this news to the Migrant fleet before the invasion started? Even if they did manage though it still leaves the problem that Han'Gerrel himself mentioned after Tali brought up the reapers "We need a world to shelter our non-combatants"

[quote]CynicalShep wrote...
5. Asari tried guerrila fighting. With 5.5 billion people. With better commandoes. With biotics. With the most advanced technology out there. [/quote]

Most asari are also not soldiers and they had to struggle apparently just to even get their people ready for war, even then they didn't dedicate enough time to war prep, and even then just because you show people how to fight like commandos, doesn't make them commandos. While I can also apply this rule to the quarians, the natural enviroment of Rannoch could have proved ideal for such tactics. This is speculation though and this will come down to opinions. I fully accept though that they wouldn't perfectly hold off the reapers, but at least on the ground the Reapers couldn't get all their civilians in just a few shots like in space.

[quote]CynicalShep wrote...
6. Check the codex entry I cited above. Quarians had absolutely no problems killing their own. [/quote]

If I was after something thats proven it can be hostile against my people and someone among my people trys to hide them from me, you can bet I would count them as part of the enemy. However depending how they approach me (aka if they come at me with a gun) will determine how I deal with them. This would count as treason as the government already declared the geth to be destroyed, the quarians that sided with harboring the geth brought this on themselves. If any Humans were harboring or protecting cerberus still loyal to TIM, this would count as the same thing really.

[quote]CynicalShep wrote...
7. The burden of proof lies on Quarians. Koris spoke to Legion, remember? I agree that they shouldn't have needed Shepard but none of the sides did enough for peace. The only difference is that Geth built a station so that they can upload themselves and get away from Rannoch and Quarians built weapons so that they can kill the Geth[/quote]

This is where I would say things come down to a matter of "Did you take character A to see character B." This comes down to a matter of how our play throughs go. Some people take Legion to Tali's trial, some people take some other squadmate. Basically no two play throughs are exactly alike unless intentionally played the same way. Not saying the claim of Koris and Legion talking is false, I'm just saying that it may have happened in your play through. But our Sheps may have two slightly different experiences (My main Shep being a Paragade/Renegon would also be hard to duplicate without actually working together to get the same play through)

Also the quarians would need to arm their ships anyways for war, one way or another. As people like to target their choice for arming the liveships,
I would argue that..
1) The liveships are most likely the only ships that could have housed the dreadnought guns or dreadnought-esce guns or whatever. Certain Ships can handle bigger guns than other ships, other wise we would see advance fighers armed with dreadnought firepower. At that point no dreadnought is worth anything no matter how much armor it has. 2) Udina even though he was a traitor later, ordered civilian ships armed also. Not saying he is smart, but the quarians are not the only ones that felt a need to arm their civilian ships.
3) its better to arm them now than arm them later because things didn't go to plan. I doubt either the Geth or the Reapers would actually give the Quarians time to arm for battle again.

As for the Geth stations I'm sure the geth rather have neither events happen, but imagine if the Reapers had gotten there before the Quarians did. The Quarians would have been long gone before Shep and crew got there, the Geth would have most likely in turn became a permanent ally to the Reapers. It could have been a moment in time both Pro-Quarians and Pro-Geth shed tears of sadness and anger at the same time together. In a way and while it may not be liked, the quarian attack might have actually ensured less Geth were under Reaper control. All speculation though, however this ultimately comes down to opinion as well. Some see the Geth being allied to the Reapers as something of little choice, others (like me) see it as cowardly, and others are in the middle with their own opinions. But thats all this comes down to is opinion. Obviously we all differ in opinion

Overall this all comes down to several variables that differ across all our play throughs and yes both sides could have done more to make peace. Though I understand the need to make Shep the mediator (In the words of Shep "So we build an alliance...story of my life")

[quote]CynicalShep wrote...
8. Quarians didnt know if the dreadnought will recover, they saw the opening and struck. Gerrel never even asked Shepard what happened. Tali disagrees with him, Koris disagrees with him, Xen is a scientist, not an Admiral and he forces Raan's hand by going on a suicidal run. People are charged with treason for less. [/quote]

In war the one thing you don't do is under estimate your enemy. If you see a moment to attack you sometimes just have to take it (sometimes, not all the time). Now as already pre-established by us prior to this, Gerrel is ordered differently between our Shepards. You order him to retreat, I order to counter attack, and etc etc lets avoid repeating this line shall we? Honestly though that Geth Dreadnought needed to go, not taking it out may have very well did more damage to the quarians than we can imagine.This is speculation though on both sides of the fence and honestly only BioWare can tell us why the option to save the Dreadnought was not put in the game.

Also Xen is indeed an Admiral, maybe not by your book but she is by BioWare. I would also say that during this conflict between Quarian and Geth, charging anyone with treason and actually taking the time to deal with the case would have only put the fleet in further danger with all heads of the fleet occupied with smaller matters. Han'Gerrel though is in his right as Admiral of the heavy fleet, that was honestly his call, and in truth Shepard (neither if we tell him to retreat or counter-attack) has command over Han'Gerrel. Koris and Tali disagree, Xen most likely would have approved only if it meant breaking the geth free of reaper control to possibly bring them under quarian control later or just making the geth flat out stupid to keep the quarians in the war. Raan may have not liked it but she still followed through. Han'Gerrel though is the main military commander of the quarians, even Raan is just a supportive element during war with her patrol fleet. Our opinion either agrees or disagree with his tactics ultimately.

[quote]CynicalShep wrote...
9. I've never played without Legion but I'm pretty sure that the Geth VI is a unique platform as well. None of the other Geth platforms would have been capable of doing what that Geth VI did.[/quote]

This should give you more insight to it, though please note its wiki. My experience though can confirm all this, but ultimately its only words.

[quote]CynicalShep wrote...
10. Everybody knows Shepard is the de-facto representative. He comes to negotiate on Alliance's behalf, after all. And Tali knows Liara is the SB, who's to say that other Quarians don't? That was unlikely to influence Gerrel's decision. If Shepard and Tali were deemed expendable, SB would have made no difference.

Glad we're keeping this civil.
[/quote]

Ultimately Tali informing the quarians that Liara is the shadow broker can only be speculated on because there is no proof one way or the other to prove or disclaim it. I also doubt everyone knows how much authoritive power Shepard truly has but this is all left to speculation. While ultimately Shepard does have the authority to build alliances by Hackett, it doesn't mean any race has to abide to Shepards wishes. But thats all technical BS we could be nose diving into. I mean if everyone -had- to listen to Shepard, we would be watching a youtube video of "How Mass effect should have ended" which would have most likely been the following.

Shepard: You all got to listen to me and take orders from me. We must make this big weapon, wait x amount of time for the reapers to grab the citadel, move it to earth where we will hit it after taking down cerberus. Now lets do this!

People: Ehhh okay?

In twenty five seconds you see all of this happen with a fade to black screen when it came to picking one of the ending choices.

Overall the whole thing from Mass effect 1 to Mass effect 3 comes down to the following; Player opinion, player choices, and speculations. All of which have their respective positions on both sides of the fence. Quarian-Geth conflict is also based on philosophical feelings about "What is alive?" - All of which once again comes down to one thing; Player opinion and as we know with BSN, one persons opinion can be one of two things: Something we agree with or something we disagree with and may very well get angry about because we don't like it.

Everyone has a different opinion


To you though CynicalShep I am happy you found this civil. I do prefer to keep things civil, but I will be the first to admit (Note this is not targetted at you directly). If you're civil to me, I will be civil to you. Come at me like a raging fool and all you will get is deaf ears.

Now to be fully on topic with the post. While I know not everyone would pick to do so, the option to see the Geth return to Quarian control was something in Mass effect 2 that was being hinted at. So...Renegade option or just another option on top of peace through paragon or renegade or whatever would have been nice to see. I'm not unreasonable though if Bioware also wanted to chuck a "Geth manage to take over the quarians some how" option in with it, I wouldn't honestly be bothered by it. I wouldn't pick it myself, may youtube it just to say I saw it, and leave it at that.

Modifié par Dunabar, 06 février 2013 - 01:28 .

[Cyrax86]

@Hazegurl

Legion only disabled the dreadnought shields, there are still Geth aboard the dreadnought, when you make your escape, they would have gotten it back online had Gerrel not destroyed it.


yes the Quarians didn't know there was a Reaper on Rannoch. It was there before the Quarians arrival. Geth were harboring a Reaper before the attack.

They needed Rannoch for supplies/food/materials and a place to shelter their non-combatants.

[Hazegurl]

Cyrax86 wrote...

@Hazegurl

Legion only disabled the dreadnought shields, there are still Geth aboard the dreadnought, when you make your escape, they would have gotten it back online had Gerrel not destroyed it.


yes the Quarians didn't know there was a Reaper on Rannoch. It was there before the Quarians arrival. Geth were harboring a Reaper before the attack.

They needed Rannoch for supplies/food/materials and a place to shelter their non-combatants.

So the solution is to blow up Shep on the dreadnought to save him? That is stupid.  Or that it's okay to fire on the dreadnaught with Shep onboard and let him die for the Quarians? Either way, not my Shep's idea of checking out. My Shep would much rather fight for Earth than for the stupid Quarians. Besides, I don't recall any mention of them coming back online. As soon as the shield's dropped he was firing. So f*ck him.

Geth turned to the reapers because they panicked due to the Quarians attack. They blew up their network that they were using to sync up with each other. They were not housing a reaper beforehand. They were preparing to kill reapers. Does anyone talk to Leigon in ME3? Or maybe the fake Leigon says something different?

They could not live on Rannoch properly and the reapers would have killed them quickly. They were only 17 million returning to a world they hadn't been on in 300 years. They would never be able to farm land et al in enough time to fully prepare for a reaper invasion on Rannoch. Without Shep, they would have landed on Rannoch (if they beat the Geth) then slaughtered/indocrinated by the hidden reaper. They had no homes, no cities, and no structure.

Still not seeing how the Quarians are smart. Unless they plotted Shep's involvement from the start but given the fact that they were getting their butts kicked by the Geth...again, when Shep shows up. I doubt it.

[Auld Wulf]

@Hazegurl

Exactly. It's obvious who the observant ones who paid attention were in this thread. How completely unobservant some people must be to miss out on these somewhat important elements is beyond me. Probably too busy dragging their bloody knuckles.

The geth weren't preparing to fight the quarians, at all; they were preparing to move off world into their own variant of a dyson sphere. They were building a massive network and the hardware they'd need to live away from organics, peacefully, and without interfering. They were getting ready to give Rannoch back to the quarians. Their actions were always those of victims or of creatures seeking peace.

So, along comes the quarian military, they blow up their dyson sphere, and they equip their military ship with weapons to send them out to die versus the geth. And really, neither the geth or the quarian civilians want this, but the civilians know that if they don't play along then the military is just going to shoot them out of the sky, anyway. We saw the slaughter that the military was responsible for in the geth consensus, they were always far, far too happy to kill their own people.

So, who do I choose to side with?

A.) An aggressive, fascist sect who've always been far too ready to pick a fight with peaceful, non-aggressive peoples, and far too happy sacrifice others to save themselves (their own people, and even Shepard)?

B.) A peaceful race who've never sought to attack anyone or instigate any wars, who simply want to survive and remain free. Who've been framed as scapegoats, hated and reviled for that, but never wanted anything more than to just survive?

I'm sorry, but I pick B. Any level-headed person is going to pick B. I guess it depends on how much of a lover of fascism you are by default. If you're a very patriotic person who's happy to see their own people die for the safety of their homeland, then sure, I guess the quarian military is easy to love. But if you're a sensible, ethical person, then there's much to dislike about the quarian military.

It just depends on the mindset. The more I think about it, the more the argument becomes representative of extreme left and right wing ideals (the geth even having an anarchism-based structure of organisation). The geth represent the far left, and the quarian military represents the far right. I wouldn't be surprised if this was entirely intentional on BioWare's part.

Edit: Seriously, am I the only person getting overwhelming deja vu from the quarian military, here? The quarian military's attitude toward aliens and synthetics isn't a whole lot different to that of the Imperium of Man. It's a feeling I can't shake. In regards to WH40k, I kept wishing that humanity could be saved fromt he Imperium and the Inquisition especially. That's how I feel about quarian civilians - I wish I could save them from their bloody military.

Modifié par Auld Wulf, 06 février 2013 - 08:07 .

[DeinonSlayer]

Straw man, thy name is Auld.