354 réponses à ce sujet

[Steelcan]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Straw man, thy name is Auld.

. That's kinder than what I was going to say....

[4stringwizard]

Wow, some people on this board get REALLY sensitive about killing a bunch of glorified toasters.

[silverexile17s]

CynicalShep wrote...

@ silverexile17s

1. No, he says "the Geth are about to return to full strength". Pretty self-explanatory.

2. It doesn't apply to this situation. Quarians are not Spartans. They would get slaughtered. The only difference is how fast they die. In air they have superior firepower and mobility. On Rannoch they are a sitting duck.

3. The codex specifically said that Reapers glassed a number of big cities when they hit Earth. One fleet was sacrificed so other can flee. Hackett retreated so that he could preserve the bulk of his forces for one decisive push. Those fleets survived until the allied forces moved to Earth with the Crucible. And don't forget that the entire Quarian population is smaller than Shanghai's population in 2012 (without the suburbs). They would fall in hours.

4. Wrong. There were Reapers that died in space. Only Destroyers were taken down on the ground, all Capital Ships were destroyed in space. They weren't putting a better resistance on the ground, they were being harvested. Fleets were saved for hit and runs and/or an allied attack (end of ME3).

5. How about you go back there and read the codex entry I wrote. I provided proof that a significant part of the Quarians were defending the Geth and paid for it. If you are going to get in an argument with me you'd do well to actually look at what I write ;-)

6. Read nr.5. I'll make it easier for you and put the codex entry here as well:
"The quarians placed their worlds under martial law, hunting down even those geth not participating in the hostilities, which was opposed by a large portion of the quarian people. They sheltered geth from the authorities, and were detained or killed as a result. Eventually, the opposition became an outnumbered minority unable to prevent the outbreak of all-out war in 1895 CE"

7. The only thing Geth knew is that Heretics decided to split. It was a peaceful departure, followed by "Nazara's" plan. Cerberus split themselves for the Alliance. Why aren't you bombing the Alliance for it? Quarians created the Geth. Why are Heretics Geth's responsibility? Why not Quarians'?
Let me explain this differently: let's say California split itself from the US. Then, by some admiral's dumb plan (see what I did there?) they decide to attack Japan. Should Japan declare war to the new Republic of California or to US? Is US responsible that their neighboring country is going to war?

8. First of all, you assumed I am fine with Hackett shooting at Sovereign even though I never said that. Second, Shepard ASKED Hackett to attack Sovereign. That was the plan all along. I agreed with Raan that I am doing this to give them a chance to withdraw safely. Third, you are comparing the death of all advanced organic life with a few extra civilian casualties in a war that shouldn't have happened. That's many, many, many billions as opposed to thousands or even tens of thousands.
They COULD retreat, otherwise the option wouldn't have been given. Gerrel got greedy. Mistakes like that lose wars. I am glad you are so well-versed in how long it takes to repair Geth's flagship. Mind giving me the source of your info? Gerrel's gambit almost got all the Quarian population killed (or got his entire raced killed on other playthroughs) when this war could have been won without firing a shot. That was not an early warning. He moved his fleet forward, thus forcing Raan's hand (she later said something about treason, didn't she?). Raan disagreed with him, Tali disagreed with him and I'm pretty sure Koris wouldn't have agreed with him either. That's 3:2. He just took his fleet and went forward in a suicidal dash, breaking formation. That's stupidity and back-stabbing, not military tactics. I would have made peace without one single shot. I wouldn't bring glass cannons in a bloody war. Even Avina is a better admiral than Koris.

9. Except they were ready to kill the only person who was trying to forge an alliance against the Reapers, one of their admirals and the Shadow Broker (in my case). I let civvies die to save Koris and he kills Shepard to save civvies? Gerrel is even stupider than I thought.

10. Gerrel was an revenge-driven short-sighted fool. He didn't go there to take his homeworld, he went there to exterminate the Geth. That mistake could have costed him the lives of all his people. Military leaders like Shepard are more important than a few civilians. Especially since they asked for Shepard's help and Shepard delivered.

11. It doesn't. Nobody on the board knows what just happened. All they know is that the ship is offline and Tali and Shepard are alive --> mission accomplished. He doesn't even bother to ask what's going on. He immediately grabs the knife and digs it deep into Shepard's back. And you are making wrong assumptions again. There was no proof that the ship will come back online.

12. I can't believe you just made this argument. Why not outright nuke him?

13. First of all, uncomfortable or not - Tali is an admiral. That's a fact. Admirals = military commanders. Second of all, I seem to recall Shepard falling down and having to run a semi-circle to get into the Geth fighter. Third - Quarians didn't lift a finger either. In fact, it was Legion who destroyed the Geth dreadnought and saved Shepard, Tali and Liara (in my case). Legion did more to help Quarians than Gerrel. Hell, Legion did more for the War against reapers than the entire Quarian race. That should tell you what an admiral he is. And Quarians went at war with a potential ally just because of somebody's thirst for revenge.
What do you know about "war tactics" and "battlefield logistics", exactly?

1. Um. NO. There STILL is nothing that says :The geth have Reaper code again." Full stentgh is frigirative, compaired to their full strength without the upgrades, and their full strength with them. There STILL is no direct responce that tells the fleet the geth are about to re-aquire their upgrades.

2. WRONG. The turians were barely holding on. The quarian ships are 300 year old retrofitted tug ships. They wouldn't last as long alone, ESPECALLY of they had to defend liveships. Against Reapers, it's suicide.
The ground wars for Palaven and Earth have been more successful then the space battles have been. And again, the Reapers have showen a clear aversion to nuking major population centers. I mean, think about it. The upgraded geth are as strong as the Reaper controled ones, right? So that means the Reapers should have been able to roll over the quarians in minutes. Why didn't they?
The Reapers are more obsessed with harvesting all the races, either to make into Destroyers, or in the case of Humans, a Sovergien-class. They seem to want the majority of quarians captured alive, or else they would have just had the geth storm them. After all, why would the Reapers care about geth casutlies?
And if an entire race in in ships, it's MUCH easier for a group of Reapers to hunt them down, as with no aid, the quarians would be harvested fast. In comparison, Rannoch is defensible, full of natural resources that the geth have barely touched that they can use without getting ill, and where suit ruptures won't be deadly. Not to mention that since the Reapers don't bomb major population centers, which Rannoch would be at that point, it would force the Reapers into tedious ground work, which only wastes their own time. Also, the quarians figure that as a minor species, the Reapers won't be coming for them in force for a bit, so they would have time to shore up a bit.
So YES, a planet of your own is, as proven by Palaven, Tuchanka, Earth, Thessia, and so-forth, is MUCH easier to hold to then a spot in space.

3. Yet the death toll was suprisingly little for those cities. If "glassed" is what happened to London, it's surprisingly intact. So even when they "glass" an area, they don't obliterate it, as London itself proves. Reapers have weapons that suppoedly equal 132 to 454 kilotons of TNT.
If they REALLY glassed the area, there wouldn't be ANYTHING left. Rio and Vancover also look like they are still in fighting condition if the MP maps are any indication. So forgive me if I don't believe your assertation about those cities. I doubt orbital bombardment happened.
ALL the death was in harvesting NOT orbital bombartment.
And Anderson has done will with strike teams that number in the thousands. A fraction of the quarians. Now that they have a world they can saftly fight on, I think they'd do fine.

4. Sorry, but YOU are the one that's wrong. "The Miricle on Palaven" says that dozens of Capitol ships and Destroyers were brought down by suicide squads. ALL at ONCE. That's more successful then any of the space battles witnessed thus far.
Anderson kept Earth Resistance alive for months on end. Face it: ground battles are more effective, as they want to harvest, not exterminate.

5. No. You DIDN'T. No exact numbers. 1% of the quarians = 17 million. 15% of the entire quarian race (255 million) could have been on the geth's defense, and it wouldn't even come close to matching the massive death toll the geth racked up. Especally since the quarians took prisioners. I never saw any geth that did.
If 17 million is just one percent, then the original quarian race must have been aproximitly 1 billion and seven hundred million quarians!! ALL DEAD. You REALLY are going to look at those numbers and tell me that they ALL killed themselves?!
BULL!  S***!
The geth killed far more then quarian infighting ever did. I think you need to double-check what you write first before telling ME to do so:whistle:
You obviously weren't thinking about the quarian species as a whole. Not properly, at least.

6. Again, like I said in 5^, 15 percent of the quarians pre-Morning War would equal 255 million. THAT'S your signifigant number. Which is NOTHING compaired to the 1 billion, five-hundred million that remain. The geth did more then their share of quarian killing.

7. Legion makes it quite clear on the Heretic Station that the true geth were fully aware of the Heretics goals and reasons, and let them leave anyway. And you STILL take responcibity for them having once been a member "nation." You own up to the fact that the current situation is partly your fault, which the geth never even try to do.
And again, WRONG. That is in conflict with both the backstory provided them by the ME2 Codex, and the events of Mass Effect: Evolution comics, which both depict Cerberus being a stand-alone complex from the very beginning. They may have worked with (rouge, extrimiest, or semi-loyal only) Alliance members, but they weren't founded by the Alliance. They were independant long before and after.

8. If YOU are fine with Hackett shooting Sovergien, you should have NO problem with Gerrel, especally since he even left the comms open for a head start - MORE then Hackett did. Second, NO. Shepard NEVER specified and exact convient time for attacking the ship. Obviously, Shepard sisn't care about the debris risk. Why should you? It's war. Things like that happen. If you tell him an exact time of "wait...wait...okay, shoot now" you could miss the chance, just for your personal sake. Any true soldier puts the good of many before personal gain. Shepard and Hackett did that with Sovergien, and Gerrel did the same for the fleet with the dreadnought. After whatcing the thing carve a path right through the fleet, there is no way in HELL he can just let the thing be restored in a day (geth have nano-bots and thousands of platforms specified to fast, efficant ship repair on avargage. WIth Reaper upgrades, their repair prowess is almost legendary. A day if tehy go fast, which they will. Besides, Legion only disabled the ship. He didn't permenatly deactivate it. An engine can easily be turned back on) to hunt them down again. WHEN are they ever going to be able to mimic this chance again? And Raan was simply angry. Gerrel has sovergien contol over the Heavy Fleet. All the admirals control different portions of the fleet. Xen has the research ships. Raan has the Patrol fleet. Gerrel has the Heavy fleet. Koris has the Civilian fleet. Tali's forces are never mentioned, though she likely coordinates support and resupply. I think.
ANd they only BELIEVED they could retreat. Different thing entirely. If they had tried, they would have found out far too late that the dreadnought wasn't the source of the Reaper signal, and be torn apart by the still-intact and still-upgraded blockade. 
It's like pulling back while you THINK the enemy is in disarray, only to be shot in the back as you retreat, because they had planned for you to do just that (Legion says that the Reaper Base on Rannoch was indeed a contingincy for this exact situation).
And Gerrel's charge is no more "Back-Stabbing" then it would be to leave the Council
to die, just so that you can take Sovergien with fewer losses.  Remember
how humans are hated if that happens? Gerrel took the shot because he
couldn't risk the geth restoring that Dreadnought. Just like Hackett
couldn't wast the oppertunity to hit Sovergien when it was down.  And what about how Hackett sacrificed the entire second fleet to ensure retreat? Shouldn't THAT have been "back stabbing" too? Sending those people to die? It's a military call. You MAKE THEM IN WAR.
So all in all, Gerrel made the right call. Shepard makes hard calls that not everyone agrees with. So does Hackett and Anderson.

9. Gerrel places more value on entire race. Gerrel is thinking like a TRUE military leader - something you seem to fail at.
Either he heads to the relay, getting his people out, but knowing that ship will be restored in a day, and likely chase them down, now that they are considered a threat (don't you dare spout any BS. They didn't have a choice but to try and get Rannoch back, and they never expected Reaper interferance in it). Gerrel knows that they cannot afford to let go of Rannoch, because there is no where else they can possibly go in the galaxy that is safe for quarians. And since the geth are Reaper allies now, nothing is stopping them from leaving to help the Reapers anyway. The geth will spread out now, and attack the other races alongside the Reapers. Gerrel figures that retreat is no longer an option. Either they duke it out with the geth, and stop them now, or let the Heretic rampage of ME1 be repeated everywhere. So in truth, Gerrel is thinking about ALOT more then just his people in that situation.
It was the right call. For everyone, quarians included.

10. He was thinking about the future of his race. Everything is in chaos in the galaxy. There is no one willing to take in that many high-maitinance quarian refugees. Especally not many with the dextro-worlds that they need.
Rannoch has everything. Untapped resources that the geth left alone. Defensible positions. An atmosphere that won't kill them. And as a bonus, the Councils order of the geth being "Enemies of the State" was never recinded, and they are still listed as "Reaper Allies," since the only testamony of otherwise came from a single geth, admittedly ioslated, and backed by someone facing tribunal for colaborating with known terrorists and blowing up a mass relay. And as a faction no longer governed by Council Laws, the Council's rules about war don't apply to them anymore. So at this point, no one can blame the quarians for attacking the geth anymore.
And even valuble resources like gifted military leaders get in the trenches and risk it all. Look at Anderson.

11. You must have MISSED how the quarians left communications open, letting Shepard have at least a head start. They only closed communications AFTER the order was debated and decided.
And after everything Shepard has survived, like the Collector Base in particular, I think Gerrel would only have been surprised if Shepard didn't survive. This is the person that led the Suicide Mission and (presumibly) got everyone out alive. And what about Wrex? He sends you to fight it out under a Reaper while he gets the easy job of maning the maw hammers.
There was no choice. The geth would have chased the quarians down anyway, and then started on the other races. It ended with them, and Gerrel saw that.

12. Harbinger did that already in Priority: Earth.
Face it. It would have only been shocking if Shepard didn't live.

13.First off - Tell that to Xen. I didn't see her in command of anything. And Tali tells you in private that the last thing she wanted was to be an admiral, but only did it to keep the balance between Gerrel, Koris, and Xen.
Second - piff. Shepard killed a Human Reaper from a floating platform on a space station surrounded by black holes at the center of the galaxy, while the base was on a self-destruct timer.
Breaking platoforms and explosions is nothing compaired to what Shepard's seen so far.
Third - the quarians were busy with the REST of the geth ships. They were evenly split between bringing the dreadnought down, and keeping the other geth ships at bay. And they gave Shepard the warning by leaving comms open until the attack started. Fourth - NO ONE KNEW THE GETH WERE FRIENDLY. The Heretics behavior certinly did nothing to encourage that. Nor did the fact that they let Earth and Palaven burn while having talks with the Reapers about aliegance.
If not for Gerrel, you would still have that dreadnought bearing down on you, the quarians would have been killed by the still-upgraded geth at the Relay, and the Reaperized geth would be swarming the other races.

Battlefield Logistics and War Tactics are doing what is nessessary to ensure the safety of everyone. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.
That dreadnought will be spearheading the geth counterattack if they don't attack. And if they leave, the geth will shift their focus to the other races, and aid the Reapers in the war. This is no longer a war they can back down from.
THAT'S the bigger picture.

[DirtySHISN0]

4stringwizard wrote...

Wow, some people on this board get REALLY sensitive about killing a bunch of glorified toasters.

Funny, others seem to react the same way about some useless skinvelopes.

Modifié par DirtySHISN0, 06 février 2013 - 09:18 .

[silverexile17s]

[quote]Hazegurl wrote...

[quote]silverexile17s wrote...

[quote]Hazegurl wrote...

[quote]silverexile17s wrote...

[quote]Hazegurl wrote...

[quote]DeinonSlayer wrote...

[quote]Hazegurl wrote...

[quote]Cyrax86 wrote...

the Geth dreadnought was coming back online, it would have continued firing on the Quarians while trapping Shep inside. Any way are you going to attack the alliance or doom humanity to extinction because Hackett shot at you?[/quote]No, Gerrel ordered the attack cause the the dreadnaught was offline and they had the advantage. Gerrel attacked immidiately then started talking crap about how he was doing it cause the Geth were now vulnerable. Gerrel was willing to scarifice Shepard, Tali/other quarian lady on the ship if it meant destorying the Geth. He didn't give two craps if Shep and his/her squad made it out alive. Hackett on the other hand contacted Shepard to assess the situation and S/he gave permission to do whatever it took. Shepard was willing to die if it meant the Allanice could take down Cerberus and use the catalyst. Shepard was not willing to die so the Quarians can pew pew the Geth for their stupid homeworld. Hence the reason why there is the option to punch Gerrel and kick his butt off his/her ship. It's not the same but if you want to keep beliving that, then that's fine for you.[/quote]
Hackett didn't contact Shepard before blowing up Sovereign right next to the Citadel Tower you were positioned in. It was offline, the Alliance had the advantage - they took it. So what if you nearly got crushed?

You're free to react however you want. If an egoistic, emotional outburst is the most character-appropriate reaction, more power to you. If you believe extinction is a proper punishment... I don't know what to say to you. As far as the dreadnought goes, I go with the Paragon response in that instance: "You did the right thing. Just give me a heads-up next time."

[/quote]

I agree with Hackett firing on Sovereign. How was he to know Shep was in the Citadel tower? He knew he was in the Citadel. On top of that the fight with Saren and Sovereign was Shep's fight. If he died in it then it was his battle to die in. Not dying to fight someone else's fight, that they wouldn't be having if they didn't start it in the first place. In ME3 my Shep had bigger fish to fry then the freaking Geth conflict once again. The Quarians got stuck between a rock and a hard place because they started a war they couldn't finish. An illegal war mind you, in the middle of a full scale reaper invasion. He didn't have time for this shyt and if he didn't need their fleet he wouldn't have bothered in the first place. Then he finds out that the Geth were preparing to fight the reapers. Then all I could think of was that the Geth's resources were being used to fight the quarians instead of the Reapers they were preparing for and it's all the Quarians fault.

Once again, you can try to reach for similarities all you like to excuse the Quarian's a**backwards stupidity but my Shep is not an emotional headcase who wishes to destroy the Geth because the Quarians told him to. Good for you that you thought it was cool to die for the quarian homeworld. My Shep on the other hand had Reapers to fight and his own planet to save. See, that's why this game have choices.

[/quote]
Um, Joker TALKED to Shepard from the Normandy. He KNEW Shepard was in the tower, because THAT'S where the master control unit for the Station and the Relay network are stationed. The relays could only be unlocked to let the fleet in if Shepard was there. Ergo, Hackett knew FULL WELL Shepard was in the tower, and STILL fired. Even disregarding Shepard, there are still lives on the Presidum where the thing is killed that could be harmed by debris and the blast, but Hackett fires anyway, because they can't affort to waste the chance to kill it.
It's a tactical decision of war. You HAVE to make them, and Gerrel was in no different a position then Hackett.[/quote]

As stated before. Hackett made the right call concerning firing on the Citadel. Gerrel was a selfish nitwit who pew pews his own race into extinction. Huge difference.  Also, as stated before. It was Shep's fight to die in if he did. The Quarians were fighting an illegal war that Shep wouldn't have even been a part of if the Quarians weren't so freaking irrational.

[quote]And the geth had a Reaper on Rannoch that couldn't have JUST flown in past the Migrant Fleet, without drawing attention. That Reaper was on Rannoch BEFORE they took them over. [/quote]

The Quarians did not care about the reaper invasion or the reaper on Rannoch. They attacked the Geth because they were being sneaky and knew the council were too busy preparing for the reapers. But nice head cannon though. You make the quarians smarter than they actually are in game.
 
[quote]The quarians lost 99% of their people. They can't survive in open atmosphere. They were always denied the rights colonize any other world by the Council. They lost any other chance of it when the Reapers came in. The're fleet is a sitting duck for the Reapers, if they don't find anywhere to let their civilians hunker down. The geth are still assumed to be Reaper allies. The quarians had a virus-based weapon that could garuntee victory against geth ships. There may never be another chance because the Reapers are torching and harvesting everything around them.[/quote]

Quarians didn't care about hunkering down for a reaper invasion. They only cared about beating the Geth. Hence is why they pew pew themselves to death doing it. The Quarians really cared about their civilians. So much so that they attached heavy weapons to the ships their families and children are on and put them in the middle of a battle.

[quote]Your Shep seems more SELFISH then "cool." Losing Earth should make YOU of all people understand what it means to have all that back in your grasp, even more so since it the first time in 300 years the quarians have been this close.
Any Shepard that knows about love and loss should see where quarians are coming fromB)
[/quote]

I love my Shep. He maybe selfish in some ways (Renagades are to a point) but he does the right thing and is no bleeding heart who honors stupidity. The Geth were preparing to fight reapers, he's spending all his time preparing the entire galaxy for a reaper invasion and yet the Quarians use their resources to fight Geth and revisit the conflict which Shep resolved in ME2 (My Shep destoryed the Heretics). And Humans didn't create the reapers, they didn't start a war with the reapers. No one is deserving of losing their homeworld to reapers. The Quarians however, brought their fate on themselves.

[/quote]
1. It's NO DAMN DIFFERENT. blah blah.....[/quote]

Which is why they were being sneaky about attacking the Geth. LOL!
No the Geth were not just like Sovereign but keep trying. 
And yeah Gerrel made the right call firing on the Geth without bothering to figure out why one of the Admirals on Rannoch was telling him not to. Which got his whole race killed in the process. Okay.

[quote]2.YOU are the one using headcannon. The Reapers were THE ENTIRE  REASON for their trying to take back Rannoch NOW.

It's basically FACT that that Reaper was on Rannoch beforehand. [/quote]

Headcannon. The Quarians attacked the Geth who were preparing for the reapers. The Geth only turned to the reapers after the Quarian attack. They(The quarians) had no clue a reaper was on Rannoch until it popped out the ground in front of Shep. otherwise they would have told him/her about it and Shep & Tali(an Admiral in my playthroughs) wouldn't have been so freaking shocked to find one there.


[quote]3. You... You...
I'm sorry, but YOU ******. LOOK what the Reapers did to TWO FLEETS of Alliance warships.[/quote]

LOL!! I'm so offended by you blowing a gasket and using bad grammar to call me a ******. No wonder you agree with the Quarians attaching heavy weapons to civilian fleets then taking them into a war with the Geth.

[quote]They get their world back, and they take away what everyone still believes is a Reaper proxy faction. Only a few knew differently. So STOP saying the quarians did it to themselves. They had little choice. I mean, where did you THINK they could go?![/quote]

Uhm, you do realize that in other playthroughs they don't and end up pew pewing themselves to death? Perhaps you've forgotten that in ME3 you actually have a thing called a choice in the matter.  And yeah taking back Rannoch really means something when the reapers are landing on every planet and destorying them. Yeah it's sooo smart to take back a world they can't even properly live on nor even understand the terrian all that well. As a matter of fact the only chance they have of truely being able to live on Rannoch suit free in a shorter amount of time and possibly have a better defense for the reaper invasion is by brokering peace between the Quarians and Geth.


[quote]And they would have needed to attach the liveships with weapons ANYWAY. In a war with giant space-squids that could come after you at ANY MOMNENT, I'D sure as hell be strapping guns on anything I could mount them on.[/quote]

Yet they took them to fight Geth. Geth LOL! Seriously, I feel like Miranda at the beginning of ME2

[quote]4.  "the geth were preping to fight?" Then where the HELL were they when the Reapers lit up Palaven and Earth? Or when the Citadel was under Cerbeurs occupation. Why the hell did they not talk to anyone? Or come out of isolation after ME2? Why stay isolated if they were going to fight. Why allow a Reaper on Rannoch WELL BEFORE the quarian attack? Why did they not openly announce "We are not Reaper supporters"?
The geth were on the fence. [/quote]

Hm, let's see, doing what the Asari and Turians were doing at the start. Protecting their own borders. and if you'd bother to read the intel at the Spectre office you would see that the very first piece of info that comes in at the start of the game is how the Quarians were preparing to fight the Geth. So I would imagine that they attacked sometime around the beginning of the game which means that the Geth were busy fighting your friends, the Quarians. But I doubt they would have come to their (Turian and Human)aid unless Leigon and Shep joined up earlier. Remember, the Geth were blamed for Sovereign and their first contact with humans that didn't end in a pew pew fest was with Shepard who was grounded until the reaper invasion. I may choose destory at the end of my playthroughs but I don't see the Geth as some great enemy here. If you do that is fine, I don't care. People headcannon all the time or interpret what they want from the story. That's why it's an RPG. I simply disagree with you and feel that you are reaching for any reason to make the Quarians right. I disagreed with the Quarians when I first played ME3, then when I played ME1 and 2 I just had a better understanding as to why I disagreed with them. I told Tali they got what they deserved and meant it. And if I can't broker peace between them (which is what I always strive for) I pick the Geth and watch Tali or Ran(I think that's the name of the other one that comes ont he mission) die and call them all stupid to Joker at the end with zero regrets. As far as I'm concerned the Quarians all committed suicide that day.

PS. I love it when Shep can talk the Quarians down by telling them how sick and tired he is of saving them. Awesome speech and I felt the same way. Love Renagade Shep.

[/quote]
1. HOW many would have diverted resources to aid in the quarian retaking of Rannoch, when the Reapers were hitting everywhere else? They would have just been pushed aside as always. They figured they were on their own.
And either they take the thing out NOW. Or it comes back tomorror and hunts them down. ALSO, if they leave, the geth will shift their focus to OTHER races, and aid the Reapers. This is NO LONGER a war that the quarians can run from.
Keep trying though:whistle:

2. Sure, That's why they let Reapers attack Earth, Palaven, Tuchanka, Irune, and everywhere else.
Or why they never told anyone that they were friendly. Or why THEY cut communication with Tali.
Or how that Reaper got past the Migrant Fleet without them noticing.
The GETH knew about that Reaper. They let it in before the quarians ever arrived.

3. LOOK what happened to the turians! The batarians! The Alliance!. Those were fleets of fully armed, battle-ready warships. And the Reapers took them with moderate effort, and moderate loss. WHAT exactally do you think UNARMED, OUTDATED TUGS, LOADED WITH CIVILIANS, will do?! They will take them apart!. You CAN'T be that thick.
No WONDER you can't comprehend what "Necessity" means. Either they have a world, or they DIE. It's NOT a bloody hard choice.

4. If that was true, the Reapers would have just blowen up every world they attacked. They want to HARVEST every species. WHY go through a ground war otherwise?
And Earth and Palaven, "espceally "The Miricle on Palaven" Codex Entry, in which dozens of Sovergien-class and Dsetroyer-class were killed, shows that the ground war has been more effective against the Reapers then space combat has. More then in can say for the space fleets.

5. Tell that to the thousands dead from the Heretcis. Seriously, there was NOTHING that the wider galaxy knew about the geth. You assume that everything Shepard found out about was insatntly common knolodge, but it's NOT. James Vega has no clue about the Noveria incident with the Rachni, unless you take him with you to Uttuku to fight them.
Geth were:
Still considered a faction at war (the Council never recinded the order, as Shepard's voucher for Legion was suspect, due to Cerberus ties, and the Alliance tribunal for the Alpha Relay).
Still never came out into the galaxy (the only geth the wider galaxy ever met were the Heretics, and they did NOT leave a good impression).
Geth are still isolated, even after events of ME2 (no comm interaction with anyone else, telling them that they were friendly. Tali says that Legion was the one that cut contact first).
Geth are still considered Reaper Allies (Again, Heretics disposition was never corrected from the assumption that all geth were the same).
Geth killed everyone that ever went into the Veil (includind diplomatic and private civilian ships. Don't talk about self-defense only being the geth's MO)
The galaxy had EVERY REASON TO THINK THE GETH WERE STILL HOSTILE. The geth's own isolationist actions caused this war as much as anything else.

6. The quarians were gathering forces. That they were going to attack the geth was only speculated by Spectre inteligance.
The quarians launched the attack seventeen days before asking Shepard for help, by attacking three geth systems. The game's timeling spans at least six months. Rannoch is the halfway point, I think. That would mean the quarian atatck was either during the right at the end of the Tuchanka arc, or right before the Cerberus coop attempt. So NO, the geth were QUITE FREE when Earth and Palaven were lit up. Try again.

The geth did NOTHING to demonstrate they were willing allies either. They did nothing to rectify the image the Heretics painted of the galaxy. Shepard even touches on this by telling Legion in ME2 that "nothing gets solved if you just sit behind the Perseus Veil and let them hate you." Which is what the geth have ALWAYS done.
The entire point of the game is that NITHER SIDE IS MORE JUSTIFIED THEN THE OTHER. The quarians tried to kill the geth for questions. The geth killed 99% of their race. The quarians never forgave the geth. The geth made no attempt to apolpgize. The quarians attacked out of desperation. The geth sat behind the veil and let all the hate fester.
NITHER side deserved what happened to them, and I am truly sorry that you can't see that. NO ONE shoule ever say that what the quarians got was justified. That's simply curel, as it was no more justified then the geth's vilinization as boogymen.
And if you can't broker peace, it's no different then tossing them the gun and forcing one to pull the trigger.
If anything, your Shepard is both callous and cruel, and I rather not meat them anytime soon.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 06 février 2013 - 11:31 .

[silverexile17s]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Straw man, thy name is Auld.

No kidding.
PS. Nice profile pic. Sorry about Robin Sachs.

[Giantdeathrobot]

Cyrax86 wrote...
They needed Rannoch for supplies/food/materials and a place to shelter their non-combatants.

Food the liveships have. You know, those same liveships they bring to the final battle? And Tali explicitely says it will take years, even generations for Rannoch to properly house the Quarians. So why the urgency?

As for supplies/materials, it's not like Rannoch is the only source of these in the galaxy. Indeed, an all-out war has a much higher sense of bringing them to a critical situation supply-wise. If Shepard didn't bail their asses, they would have been defeated and in an even more dire situation that they were. Allying with the Council races would very probably have brought them all the supplies they would need. It's not like they would turn down the largest fleet in the galaxy when ships is what they need most.

As for hiding civilians, again, what does it matter if they are on Rannoch? The only thing it changes is that they lost their mobility. And again, the liveships are brought to the final battle. So what do the civilians on Rannoch eat in the first place anyway? Aren't the civilians safer within the powerful and mobile Fleet, rather than completely exposed on a planet with no defenses whatsoever?

I'm trying to understand the ''we must retake Rannoch NOW'' logic here. Because it doesn't make much sense at all.

[kalasaurus]

I have to admit, on my first play through I was pretty hesitant to let the Geth upload REAPER CODE to obtain free will. I went along with it, hesitantly at first, since I didn't want the Geth to die-- apparently my choice is between that and genocide :/. I was surprised I could make peace after that...

Modifié par GlassElephant, 06 février 2013 - 10:07 .

[DeinonSlayer]

Giantdeathrobot wrote...

Cyrax86 wrote...
They needed Rannoch for supplies/food/materials and a place to shelter their non-combatants.

Food the liveships have. You know, those same liveships they bring to the final battle? And Tali explicitely says it will take years, even generations for Rannoch to properly house the Quarians. So why the urgency?

As for supplies/materials, it's not like Rannoch is the only source of these in the galaxy. Indeed, an all-out war has a much higher sense of bringing them to a critical situation supply-wise. If Shepard didn't bail their asses, they would have been defeated and in an even more dire situation that they were. Allying with the Council races would very probably have brought them all the supplies they would need. It's not like they would turn down the largest fleet in the galaxy when ships is what they need most.

As for hiding civilians, again, what does it matter if they are on Rannoch? The only thing it changes is that they lost their mobility. And again, the liveships are brought to the final battle. So what do the civilians on Rannoch eat in the first place anyway? Aren't the civilians safer within the powerful and mobile Fleet, rather than completely exposed on a planet with no defenses whatsoever?

I'm trying to understand the ''we must retake Rannoch NOW'' logic here. Because it doesn't make much sense at all.

So you're suggesting they throw their entire civilian population into that slaughter above Earth?

Their dependency on the Liveships was a crippling weakness. They can't split the fleet to provide logistic aid to the wider galaxy when they depend on daily food shipments. And THAT's in peacetime. Factor in the chaos of a war.

The Quarians eat local food on Rannoch. The Geth were cultivating it, according to the planet description. If they needed the liveships (and if I recall, only two participate in the fight), they would have been left at Rannoch.

You expect the Turians to be able to provide logistical aid to the Quarians? The whole point of recruiting the Quarians was to provide logistical aid to them! The Turians are under full Reaper attack. Their colonies are under seige. They aren't going to be supplying the Quarians any time soon.

[justafan]

Great Scott, Silverexile, you almost have me thinking that Gerrel is a competent leader. How dare you!

[Giantdeathrobot]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Giantdeathrobot wrote...

Cyrax86 wrote...
They needed Rannoch for supplies/food/materials and a place to shelter their non-combatants.

Food the liveships have. You know, those same liveships they bring to the final battle? And Tali explicitely says it will take years, even generations for Rannoch to properly house the Quarians. So why the urgency?

As for supplies/materials, it's not like Rannoch is the only source of these in the galaxy. Indeed, an all-out war has a much higher sense of bringing them to a critical situation supply-wise. If Shepard didn't bail their asses, they would have been defeated and in an even more dire situation that they were. Allying with the Council races would very probably have brought them all the supplies they would need. It's not like they would turn down the largest fleet in the galaxy when ships is what they need most.

As for hiding civilians, again, what does it matter if they are on Rannoch? The only thing it changes is that they lost their mobility. And again, the liveships are brought to the final battle. So what do the civilians on Rannoch eat in the first place anyway? Aren't the civilians safer within the powerful and mobile Fleet, rather than completely exposed on a planet with no defenses whatsoever?

I'm trying to understand the ''we must retake Rannoch NOW'' logic here. Because it doesn't make much sense at all.

1. So you're suggesting they throw their entire civilian population into that slaughter above Earth?

2. Their dependency on the Liveships was a crippling weakness. They can't split the fleet to provide logistic aid to the wider galaxy when they depend on daily food shipments. And THAT's in peacetime. Factor in the chaos of a war.

3. The Quarians eat local food on Rannoch. The Geth were cultivating it, according to the planet description. If they needed the liveships (and if I recall, only two participate in the fight), they would have been left at Rannoch.

4. You expect the Turians to be able to provide logistical aid to the Quarians? The whole point of recruiting the Quarians was to provide logistical aid to them! The Turians are under full Reaper attack. Their colonies are under seige. They aren't going to be supplying the Quarians any time soon.

1. If they lose, the civilians are dead anyway. Whenever in one week or 50 years, if the battle against the Reapers is lost the Quarians are no more. Plus, putting them in mobile ships away from the battle gives them a better chance than that sticking them on an undefended rock while the military is literally on the other side of the galaxy.

2. Liveships produce food, enough for the entire fleet. They have done so for 300 years. They can do it for a few more. There is no urgency in retaking Rannoch.

3. Didnt notice that one. Still, they couldn't have foreknowledge that the Geth were growing Quarian food. Tali in ME2, says that, as far as she knows, it will take years for Rannoch to support her species again, and I would guess that's with all their numbers. How did the Quarian leadership believe that taking Rannoch would change anything in the short notice (which, Reapers being Reapers, is the only one that matters)? Plus, if only 2 liveships go to Earth, then the whole argument about not wantng to separate the fleet falls flat, I doubt such an important craft doesn't have a solid escort, especially if it (for example) stays in orbit around Rannoch to provide food for the civilians.

4. The Quarians should have gone to the Council is what I mean. The Migrant Fleet could certainly do a whole lot to relieve the pressure on the Turians; consider how the Krogan clans alone ensured the Hierarchy could devote most of its ressources to Shepard's force, and then imagine how the biggest fleet in the galaxy would have helped. Supply problems? We have 17 000 ships at our disposal for supply run, blockade breaking, transportation, ect. What supply problems? The Quarians had a hard time because the Council races mistrusted them and didn't trade much. You can bet they will shower our suit-wearing friends with what they need once their heavily armed ships start blasting Reapers out of their skies. And anyhow, how does retaking Rannoch help the supply situation? It doesn't have any infrastructure, in fact it means an additionnal spot to defend while there was only one before. I guess the immense amount of scrap from all the dead Geth could serve, but we don't know if they can reliably convert that tech. It just seems utterly stupid to go to war with the Geth, counter-measure or not, when the council has desperate need of your ships.

[DeinonSlayer]

justafan wrote...

Great Scott, Silverexile, you almost have me thinking that Gerrel is a competent leader. How dare you!

Like any military commander, he acts with the information he has. People like to call him an idiot because they don't think about the dreadnought situation beyond "I got shot at!" They do the same because of the outcome where the Quarians are destroyed, even though the only reason it happens is because Shepard neglects to mention that the upload is happening in the first place. For all they know, another Reaper backup came online, in which case ceasing fire wouldn't have saved them anyway.

[DeinonSlayer]

I apologize in advance for any formatting issues. I'm writing this out in a window that doesn't let me scroll.

Giantdeathrobot wrote...

1. If they lose, the civilians are dead anyway. Whenever in one week or 50 years, if the battle against the Reapers is lost the Quarians are no more. Plus, putting them in mobile ships away from the battle gives them a better chance than that sticking them on an undefended rock while the military is literally on the other side of the galaxy.

Putting them on a planet which can feed them alleviates the strain on the liveships. The food they produce can then be stockpiled on military vessels for extended journeys away from the fleet, instead of remaining within shuttle distance at all times for daily food shipments. Military needs to eat too - without offloading their civilians, they'd have to bring a liveship with the military ships along with the 1/3rd of the civilian fleet dependent on that liveship. Dragging 1/3rd of their entire population into that final fight or ensuring their military goes in with no rations is not a favorable prospect.

2. Liveships produce food, enough for the entire fleet. They have done so for 300 years. They can do it for a few more. There is no urgency in retaking Rannoch.

Delivering that food requires daily shuttle shipments, even in peacetime. They can't divide the fleet so long as they depend on the liveships.

3. Didnt notice that one. Still, they couldn't have foreknowledge that the Geth were growing Quarian food. Tali in ME2, says that, as far as she knows, it will take years for Rannoch to support her species again, and I would guess that's with all their numbers. How did the Quarian leadership believe that taking Rannoch would change anything in the short notice (which, Reapers being Reapers, is the only one that matters)? Plus, if only 2 liveships go to Earth, then the whole argument about not wantng to separate the fleet falls flat, I doubt such an important craft doesn't have a solid escort, especially if it (for example) stays in orbit around Rannoch to provide food for the civilians.

She was referring to how long it would take them to adapt to life without suits - for their immune systems to recover - not about food. It would take (likely illegal) genetic engineering to eliminate their physiological dependency on their native plant life. Living on the flotilla for them is like if a human were denied vitamin D for their entire lives. Offloading their civilians on a world where they could survive in the event that the Fleet never comes back for them, where a suit breach won't be fatal, frees up the fleet to assist the rest of the galaxy.

4. The Quarians should have gone to the Council is what I mean. The Migrant Fleet could certainly do a whole lot to relieve the pressure on the Turians; consider how the Krogan clans alone ensured the Hierarchy could devote most of its ressources to Shepard's force, and then imagine how the biggest fleet in the galaxy would have helped. Supply problems? We have 17 000 ships at our disposal for supply run, blockade breaking, transportation, ect. What supply problems? The Quarians had a hard time because the Council races mistrusted them and didn't trade much. You can bet they will shower our suit-wearing friends with what they need once their heavily armed ships start blasting Reapers out of their skies. And anyhow, how does retaking Rannoch help the supply situation? It doesn't have any infrastructure, in fact it means an additionnal spot to defend while there was only one before. I guess the immense amount of scrap from all the dead Geth could serve, but we don't know if they can reliably convert that tech. It just seems utterly stupid to go to war with the Geth, counter-measure or not, when the council has desperate need of your ships.

The Migrant Fleet is eighty years from extinction. They were barely hanging on before the Reaper invasion. As long as the Quarians live in space, they're the equivalent of subsistence farmers. Nothing to spare - and if you've noticed in previous titles, it's in their character to take care of their own problems. They learned that was the only way they'd survive when the Council sat back and watched their civilization burn to the ground three centuries earlier. The Council threatened to bomb them off of the last world they tried to settle. Really, given the way they've been kicked around by everyone as long as any of them can remember, I'm amazed that they offer to help at all. No Turian colony is going to be willing and able to accept an influx of millions of refugees with finicky diets, even in exchange for the fleet. You'd be hard-pressed enough to find a Turian world which isn't already under attack. The Quarians manage on Rannoch just fine without the Geth, so evidently they knew they'd be able to before committing to that course of action.

[Steelcan]

Beat me to it.....

[justafan]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

justafan wrote...

Great Scott, Silverexile, you almost have me thinking that Gerrel is a competent leader. How dare you!

Like any military commander, he acts with the information he has. People like to call him an idiot because they don't think about the dreadnought situation beyond "I got shot at!" They do the same because of the outcome where the Quarians are destroyed, even though the only reason it happens is because Shepard neglects to mention that the upload is happening in the first place. For all they know, another Reaper backup came online, in which case ceasing fire wouldn't have saved them anyway.

Deinon, you should know I'm a Quarian sympathizing, Admiralty defender.  I don't like what he did, I'm pissed at him for doing it, but I don't deny it was the right call.  I mostly fault him for his decision at the end of the rannoch arc, where he puts his fleet out of a defensible position for a quick kill, however much of the blame like you said rests with Shepard as well.  The geth, reapers, and council left the Quarians with no choice but to take back Rannoch by force, there was no other way to survive.

Modifié par justafan, 06 février 2013 - 11:22 .

[CynicalShep]

@ DeinonSlayer

If you're writing of the phone you can scroll in the regular window, not the one that comes when you pick "qoute". Just copy it all, paste it in the "quick reply" window and you'll be able to format it just fine. I write of a phone half the time

[DeinonSlayer]

justafan wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

justafan wrote...

Great Scott, Silverexile, you almost have me thinking that Gerrel is a competent leader. How dare you!

Like any military commander, he acts with the information he has. People like to call him an idiot because they don't think about the dreadnought situation beyond "I got shot at!" They do the same because of the outcome where the Quarians are destroyed, even though the only reason it happens is because Shepard neglects to mention that the upload is happening in the first place. For all they know, another Reaper backup came online, in which case ceasing fire wouldn't have saved them anyway.

Deinon, you should know I'm a Quarian sympathizing, Admiralty defender.  I don't like what he did, I'm pissed at him for doing it, but I don't deny it was the right call.  I mostly fault him for his decision at the end of the rannoch arc, where he puts his fleet out of a defensible position for a quick kill, however much of the blame like you said rests with Shepard as well.  The geth, reapers, and council left the Quarians with no choice but to take back Rannoch by force, there was no other way to survive.

I know you are. 

As I understand it, though, they never left their defensible position. They put the sun between them and Rannoch, and according to the Codex, coordinated with fighters to aim their weapons so the sun's gravity would curve their shots' trajectories into their targets (like the Reaper). The "fleet battle" cutscenes put them directly across from the Geth for the sake of drama, but the codex paints a very different picture.

[DeinonSlayer]

CynicalShep wrote...

@ DeinonSlayer

If you're writing of the phone you can scroll in the regular window, not the one that comes when you pick "qoute". Just copy it all, paste it in the "quick reply" window and you'll be able to format it just fine. I write of a phone half the time

Thanks, I'll have to try that. I always worry that pasted text will get "crunched."

[CynicalShep]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

CynicalShep wrote...

@ DeinonSlayer

If you're writing of the phone you can scroll in the regular window, not the one that comes when you pick "qoute". Just copy it all, paste it in the "quick reply" window and you'll be able to format it just fine. I write of a phone half the time

Thanks, I'll have to try that. I always worry that pasted text will get "crunched."

I had the same problem until I noticed that the two different windows behave differently

[4stringwizard]

I get the feeling a lot of people Quarian-haters do so out of a vendetta against Gerrel. "How dare he shoot at me!! I'm teh Shepard!!!11!!"

[silverexile17s]

justafan wrote...

Great Scott, Silverexile, you almost have me thinking that Gerrel is a competent leader. How dare you!

Definetly more compatent then most seem to think. I just never saw the point in hating someone for a choice that, in reality, would have had it's own share of haters no matter WHAT happened. Gerrel at least kept his head cool while Raan flailed.

It may not be the loved choice, but Gerrel made the right call. That's all that anyone can really say. You can be pissed with him if you want, but you still have to acknowlodge that he made the only call he, or anyone with military experance in his position, could make with a reasonable certinty that it would keep people safe in the long run.

That is, after all, what commanders do: Make hard choices that, while not always plesant, are nessessary. Examples of this are:
Shepard destroying the Alpha Relay to forstall the Reapers.
Hackett attacking Sovergein, despite the close proximity to the Citadel Tower and the Peisidium.
Hackett sacrificing the Alliance Second Fleet to ensure the safe retreat of the Third and Fifth.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 06 février 2013 - 11:45 .

[justafan]

DeinonSlayer wrote...
know you are. 

As I understand it, though, they never left their defensible position. They put the sun between them and Rannoch, and according to the Codex, coordinated with fighters to aim their weapons so the sun's gravity would curve their shots' trajectories into their targets (like the Reaper). The "fleet battle" cutscenes put them directly across from the Geth for the sake of drama, but the codex paints a very different picture.

And that is why I love the Quarians, they are one of the most resourceful and clever species out there.  However, I interpretted the final scene a little differently.  Basically, they had to come out of their cover and engage the Geth to get a clear shot at the reapers, and once the reapers were down, they got the chance to attack and stayed out attacking.  

Does it actually say in the codex they never came out of cover in that final push?  I like to think they were actually a decent match for the Geth with the environmental advantage, rather than the Geth having the ability to destroy them at any time.  They are obviously no match in a space napoleonic slugfest, but they do seem to be doing alright for themselves when you first arrive.

[silverexile17s]

justafan wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...
know you are. 

As I understand it, though, they never left their defensible position. They put the sun between them and Rannoch, and according to the Codex, coordinated with fighters to aim their weapons so the sun's gravity would curve their shots' trajectories into their targets (like the Reaper). The "fleet battle" cutscenes put them directly across from the Geth for the sake of drama, but the codex paints a very different picture.

And that is why I love the Quarians, they are one of the most resourceful and clever species out there.  However, I interpretted the final scene a little differently.  Basically, they had to come out of their cover and engage the Geth to get a clear shot at the reapers, and once the reapers were down, they got the chance to attack and stayed out attacking.  

Does it actually say in the codex they never came out of cover in that final push?  I like to think they were actually a decent match for the Geth with the environmental advantage, rather than the Geth having the ability to destroy them at any time.  They are obviously no match in a space napoleonic slugfest, but they do seem to be doing alright for themselves when you first arrive.

If anything, that the geth could possibly roll over the quarians at any time beggs the question of why the Reapers didn't direct them to do just that. After all, geth casualties shouldn't matter to the Reapers.
It's almost as if the entire point of the Reaper's battle plan is to simply contain the quarians, and prevent them from even helping the other races, until the Reapers can harvest them. An alternitive to how, normally if the Citadel trap hadn't failed, they would have simply locked down the relays to pick off races one by one. Now, they have to spread their foces to suppress everyone at once. Even the Reapers have to be strained by that.

So they seem to want the quarians isolated, but not killed off en masse, until harvest time.

Fruther proof of this, is the fact that Kahje, the hanar homeworld (and surrogate homeworld of the drell), is kept safe by automated defenses that the Reapers shouldn't have trouble breaking through if they really wanted to. It's almost as if they're trying to limit casualties, in order to maintain a viable gene pool to build future Reapers from. The larger species with the most diverse genetic structure (human, in this cycle's case) become Sovergien-class Reapers, while every other race is made into Destroyer-class Reapers.
Other examples are Irune, the volus homeworld, and Heshtok, the vorcha homeworld. They are much more occupied with conquest and suppression then mass saughter of major population centers for the species.
Thessia too. The Reapers by all rights should have bombed the planet from orbit, to avoid fighting an entire race of natural biotics on foot. Instead, they slog out a ground war. The same for Tuchanka, and Palaven, and even Earth.

The Reapers seem to be focused on havresting the majority of each species populations, after all, "preservation" of all life in the form of Reaper bodies is their mandate. It would make sense to avoid outright killing them, and instead, "asscending" them.
This can also be used against the Reapers, as they will be unwilling to use scorched earth tatcics on worlds that have high population centers, making graulla warfare highly effective. "The Miricle on Palaven" is one of the best examples of this.

In short: you have your own world, you've got a better chance of holding then being soluly based in space.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 06 février 2013 - 11:59 .

[justafan]

silverexile17s wrote...

If anything, that the geth could possibly roll over the quarians at any time beggs the question of why the Reapers didn't direct them to do just that. After all, geth casualties shouldn't matter to the Reapers.
It's almost as if the entire point of the Reaper's battle plan is to simply contain the quarians, and prevent them from even helping the other races, until the Reapers can harvest them. An alternitive to how, normally if the Citadel trap hadn't failed, they would have simply locked down the relays to pick off races one by one. Now, they have to spread their foces to suppress everyone at once. Even the Reapers have to be strained by that.
So they seem to want the quarians isolated, but not killed off en masse, until harvest time.

The Quarians are in an odd position when it comes to harvesting.  So far, it appears that there is no such thing as boarding parties when it comes to ship to ship combat outside of stealth craft insertions ala Geth Dreadnought.  Unless the Reapers possess such craft, they would be unable to harvest the Quarians in their ships, since the Quarians in all likelyhood would be actively fighting the reapers.  The reapers would be forced to destroy the migrant fleet in that case.  Also, indoctrination is a no-go, they would be too far away in their ships and it would be impossible to get sleeper agents inside.

Similarly, assuming the reapers had a 100% harvest rate, would that even be enough to construct a new destroyer?  Since that is about the only thing the Quarians would be good for for them, since they are not really all that usefull as husks.  We know millions are being harvested every day on Earth and Palaven and no destroyer are coming out of there that we know of, and there are only 17m Quarians in existence.  It seems to me that the only use the reapers could have with the Quarians is to destroy them, something they seem like they're trying to use the geth for.

Ironically enough, the best way for the reapers to harvest them would probably be to simply let them unload on Rannoch and come back later to indoctrinate everyone.  In every other scenario, they would be forced to simply wipe them out rather than harvest.

Modifié par justafan, 07 février 2013 - 12:02 .

[Giantdeathrobot]

DeinonSlayer wrote...


1.Putting them on a planet which can feed them alleviates the strain on the liveships. The food they produce can then be stockpiled on military vessels for extended journeys away from the fleet, instead of remaining within shuttle distance at all times for daily food shipments. Military needs to eat too - without offloading their civilians, they'd have to bring a liveship with the military ships along with the 1/3rd of the civilian fleet dependent on that liveship. Dragging 1/3rd of their entire population into that final fight or ensuring their military goes in with no rations is not a favorable prospect.

2. Delivering that food requires daily shuttle shipments, even in peacetime. They can't divide the fleet so long as they depend on the liveships.

3.She was referring to how long it would take them to adapt to life without suits - for their immune systems to recover - not about food. It would take (likely illegal) genetic engineering to eliminate their physiological dependency on their native plant life. Living on the flotilla for them is like if a human were denied vitamin D for their entire lives. Offloading their civilians on a world where they could survive in the event that the Fleet never comes back for them, where a suit breach won't be fatal, frees up the fleet to assist the rest of the galaxy.

The Migrant Fleet is eighty years from extinction. They were barely hanging on before the Reaper invasion. As long as the Quarians live in space, they're the equivalent of subsistence farmers. Nothing to spare - and if you've noticed in previous titles, it's in their character to take care of their own problems. They learned that was the only way they'd survive when the Council sat back and watched their civilization burn to the ground three centuries earlier. The Council threatened to bomb them off of the last world they tried to settle. Really, given the way they've been kicked around by everyone as long as any of them can remember, I'm amazed that they offer to help at all. No Turian colony is going to be willing and able to accept an influx of millions of refugees with finicky diets, even in exchange for the fleet. You'd be hard-pressed enough to find a Turian world which isn't already under attack. The Quarians manage on Rannoch just fine without the Geth, so evidently they knew they'd be able to before committing to that course of action.

1. I don't see how that solves the issue. That still leaves 1/3 of their fleet completely defenseless, along with all their civilians static. It's no easy task to feed the entire Fleet logistically, but it beats splitting it in two and leaving one third at the mercy of the first hostile fleet that shows up.

2. But one the liveship is orbiting a planet, everything is a-OK because...? They never could tell the Geth had Quarian food grown. Even assuming optimal conditions (and they aren't optimal), I'd wager it would take some time for food to grow on Rannoch for all the civilians, millions of people remember. They would still depend on the liveships for quite some time. Again, given how short-term the situation is, retaking Rannoch makes little sense.

3. If the Fleet never comes back, they are dead no matter what. They are completely defenceless against the Reaper armada that has devastated the combined Citadel fleet and countless civilizations before them. There is no surviving this conflict unless the Reapers die. Might all well bring the civilians along and leave them close to a Mass Relay, no need to send them with the front lines.

4. Eighty years is a very long time. The Reapers will anihilate both the Fleet and Rannoch way before then. It's a complete non-issue.

As for the Council races not helping, the situation is wholly different. In peacetime, they had no need for the Quarians. The worst threat was the Terminus looking over their shoulder, and only crisis they had to cope up with is some stray Geth and one annoying human who won't shut up about some silly ''reapers''. Now that the Reapers have smashed their fleets and have them in danger of extinction, there is absolutely no reason to believe they wouldn't welcome the biggest armada in the galaxy with open arms. To say otherwise is silly. The Council may be pig-headed, but there's no way they would turn down the Flotilla when they need ships more than anything.

And the Quarians retook Rannoch because Shepard bailed their asses out an uncounth number of times. No Shepard would not only have meant exterminated Quarians, but the entire Geth collective siding with the Reapers.